The prospects of London Wasps

The predictions thread recently suggested that many on here think wasps will finish in the bottom 4 in the AP this season. Which is understandable considering how they performed last year and the struggle with ownership.

But I think they have recruited extremely well with the return of Haskell and Palmer (2 england regulars) and ashley johnson (springbok) the pack will certainly be stronger. Also jones coming in at 10 seems like a wise move to me, I know he is in the twilight of his career but he is a very dependable player in a key position. If you also add in the exciting young talent already established at the club; Daly, wade and simpson then wasps look like a decent side to me.

There will be questions asked of the squad as a whole throughout the season and whether it has enough strength in depth we will have to see but if they can avoid injuries i think they could certainly finish in the top half and in what promises to be a open season possibly challenge for top 4.

When we (London Irish) played Wasps last season at the MadStad, it was clear to see that one of Wasps problems was the lack of a back who could get them over the gainline in tight situations. They had Waldouck and Daly in the centres and neither drew enough defenders in to give Varndell and Wade any space to operate in out wide.

Haskell and Johnson in the pack will address this issue slightly, but I do feel that Wasps need a slightly more powerful back in there than they currently have as well.

matt, to see an improvement this season, Wasps will need to become far more difficult to beat at home - I think you lost 7 out of 11 home game, winning just 4. The majority of your losses were close, often less than a score, so the changes that you note above may be just the ticket to turning those into Ws. Also surely you can't have the same rotten luck with injuries again

ozzy- yes centre will be an interesting area having lost waldouck, wasps do seem a bit thin there. Obviously Daly looks a fantastic prospect and they also have the 2 bells but a crash ball option wouldnt go amiss.

Hopefully the likes of Masi and Lee Thomas as well as a fit again Chris Bell can provide a bit more thump in the midfield to open up holes for TV, Wadey and others.

For me the area of real concern is as always the front row. While Dai made great strides with the unit we have lost our best tighthead in Ben Broster and best hooker in Rob Webber. Be interesting to see out of the mix who can take those places.

How's the consortium finance package going? Last I heard was that there would be announcement by mid-July.

Ken Moss gave an impressive talk last week to season ticket holders. I think we will hear something next week about the deal being done. They are currently working on a main club sponsor and ways to improve the matchday experience while we are still at Adams Park. He hopes to move us into our own ground inside the M25 for 2015 or so and make the club a more feasible business.

I have to be honest and say I am not that optimistic about our chances. I think London Welsh will struggle because of their lack of preparation (predominantly because of the ineptitude of the RFU) and lack of depth in their squad for survival at the top level.

I don't know the ins and outs of the academy system but other clubs seem to be blooding new players each season who have a genuine impact and go on to be first team regulars or keep the more experienced players on their toes. By contrast our academy players don't seem to be having the same impact. Admittedly last year we did't have much choice as the number of injuries meant the younger guys were playing week in week out rather than in selective games. Great in the long term as these guys have had decent exposure to what is required but unfortunate in the short term and possibly one of the reasons we struggled last year.

With some of the aforementioned experienced players that have been recruited as well as some more experienced younger guys we should fare better than last season. Outside of the bottom 4 though? London Welsh, Worcester, Sale and Wasps I think unfortunately.

I have a sneaky feeling Sale may well upset a few teams dg, they were very good for large portions of last season and that's before Richie Gray and Danny Cipriani are set to rock up.

Wasps should do well, they have recruited sensibly and brought back a couple of old boys to remind the youngers guys of the club ethos in their brief golden period. I think Chris Bell may be crucial to the team this season as they need someone to step into the Frazer Waters 12 spot and organise the backline as well as taking up the ball when it's not on.

I can see Sale being the team that breaks into the top 4 this season. they have recruited well and will be tough to beat.

Agreed, they are tough to beat at home. I just don't think Cipriani will fancy it up there! Hope he proves me wrong as he is great to watch in form and he has been talking about trying to work his way back in to contention for England.

If he buys in to the ethos that Steve Diamond is trying to instil up there then hopefully he and Sale can have a decent season. From my bottom four, who would you replace Sale with?

Bath.

I don't think there recruitment has been great, and i don't see much changing there this season from last.

Fraser Waters played at outside centre and I expect Chris Bell to do the same. He marshalled the defence well and put in some big hits. Andrea Masi and Lee Thomas are the most likely at 12. Ryan Davis could be another options as he will be third choice fly half and played well at inside centre in a few games at the end of last season. It will be interesting to see what Dai considers his best XV, but it sure is nice to have some options in the squad.

I think there looks to be a better balance in the squad without a lot of depth. But the boys are being put through a tougher pre-season this year and there is a new S&C team in place.

dgtaylor, no Academy talent coming through? What about Christian Wade who was tied for top try scorer last season? Joe Launchbury who was meant to be on the England tour this year? Elliot Daly who played a number of games when Bell was lost for the season and kicked some important goals. Not mention the contributions of Sam Jones, Billy Vunipola and Jack Wallace too. I think the Wasps Academy is churning out players as well as it always has.

I think Wasps will surprise a few people as there is a lot of good young talent in the first XV - but will struggle with squad depth. Realistically, I think they will stay clear of relegation (almost certain to be LW, with Worcester next but several points clear) and the bottom 4. Top 6 would be a very good result.

There are several sides who are rebuilding or struggling to find their form. Glaws are probably the pick of that bunch but have struggled to sustain a whole season, with Bath, LI, Wasps also in the same pack for different reasons.

Sale and Exeter will be pushing the Top 4, but I don't think they're quite there yet. Leicester will almost certainly make the Top 2. Quins, Sarries and Saints will be fighting it out for the other 3 playoff positions. I think Quins will find it harder going than last season and a lot will hang on how they adapt to being without their EPS members, and Robshaw in particular, for long periods.

Outside of the top four and bottom one I think it's going to be so close in the midfield. All sides can get results on their day. Lots of rebuilding going on. You can make a case for just about any side to make the top six. Should make for an exciting season

Very fair and perhaps I was a bit hasty in dismissing the academy! Perhaps it is the fact that other team's academy players seem to get more exposure in the press, no doubt helped as they are playing in teams that are performing well in the premiership/HC. I am thinking of Farrell/Ford but as you point out Launchbury and Wade got exposure at the highest level so I concede defeat.

dgttaylor wrote:Very fair and perhaps I was a bit hasty in dismissing the academy! Perhaps it is the fact that other team's academy players seem to get more exposure in the press, no doubt helped as they are playing in teams that are performing well in the premiership/HC. I am thinking of Farrell/Ford but as you point out Launchbury and Wade got exposure at the highest level so I concede defeat.

No worries mate, yeah I'm sure if we were a bit higher up we might see Daly getting talked up a bit more. Shows how good Wade was last year that he missed a third of the season, ended up joint-top try scorer despite playing in what was a really poor side.

Now if only we can keep our young English talent. Already seen Webber and Dom Waldouck go this summer.

Webber is a shame as we are alrady lacking some depth and quality in the front row. With Masi and Thomas coming in to join Bell, hopefully losing Waldouck won't be too much of a blow. He never quite kicked on and went all the way when I thought he would, having watched his first few seasons at the club.

Wade is a phenomenal try scorer but with plenty to work on so I can't see us losing him to England for a while thankfully. Just hope his England career is managed more effectively than Tom Varndell's!

I initially put Sale down for top 4, but upon revision actually think they will be much further down the table. Gray is a great signing, but how often will he play? I think the real thing that is lacking for them is real spark or a 'go to guy' in the backline. Tuitupou is solid at 12, but not much else. Addison and Miller are great prospects, but then every team in the Premiership has guys like them. Cipriani will hopefully add some fiz, but could also be a nightmare. They are a solid side who could be top 6 again, but I just think they lack that bit of quality.

Wasps will be better than last year on paper, but the concern is that if they suffer any injuries they could really struggle. Johnson is a tremendous back row player and Haskell will add something, but beyond that I am not so sure about their other signings. I think they will be 8th-10th.

It will be all or nothing this year with Cipriani. If he has an absolute belter (pre ankle injury form) then Sale will have the spark you mention. Sadly I can't see this happening. They have done well to hang on to Miller, he had a great season, surprised one of the "big" clubs hasn't poached him.

I don't think Miller's contract was up for renewal so it would have been an expensive purchase with most of the other top teams having good fullbacks and good back ups. Given the age of the legendary Geordan Murphy and Matt Tait's injury issues it would be interesting to know if Miller's contract is up for renewal next summer. In some ways he does remind me of a young Geordan and Tigers would certainly improve him and give him a great platform.

Richie Gray should be playing for two thirds of the season and the SRFU cannot force English clubs to rest their players or release their players outside of designated international windows unlike the RFU with their EPS agreement.

Obviously a massive punt at this stage but thought I would give it a go anyway.

Saracens
Leicester
Quins
Northampton
Gloucester
Exeter
Sale
Bath
London Irish
Wasps
Worcester
London Welsh

Revised the bottom 4 from previous post, changed my mind about Sale for no particular reason!!

I predicted this previously.

"1.Tigers (finished second only just despite losing 5 of the first 6 LY)
2.Sarries (with their injured players back they will be a handfull again)
3.Quins (needed a couple of tight five signings which they haven't had, a couple of injuries or a HEC run could see them struggle for depth)
4.Saints (understimate that pack at your perial, some astute off season signings made as well)
5.Exeter (call me mad but they operate as such a good unit they are tough to keep down, a quick HEC exit will see them concentrating on the league)
6.Glaws (rejuvinated squad and new management team don't throw it away unlike last season where a suicidal approach to the second half of the season cost them)
7.Sale (good squad with a couple of great signings added)
8.LI (lack of grunt up front may be their undoing but with Smith in charge I predict a cup run)
9.Wasps (new team and with the LV Cup and Amlin sacrificed will improve on LY)
10.Bath (seemingly perennial underachievers now, new management same average squad relying too heavilly on individuals, may spring some suprises on the way)
11.Worcester (hard working team but have lost both their flair wingers in the off season)
12.LW (couple of good youngsters will shine as the team sinks to the bottom, should help them get AP contracts in the future though)"

I think that is still a good guess. Gloucester are obviously the ones that could bugger the whole thing up as they can either be brilliant or awful but we will see.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I predicted this previously.

"1.Tigers (finished second only just despite losing 5 of the first 6 LY)
2.Sarries (with their injured players back they will be a handfull again)
3.Quins (needed a couple of tight five signings which they haven't had, a couple of injuries or a HEC run could see them struggle for depth)
4.Saints (understimate that pack at your perial, some astute off season signings made as well)
5.Exeter (call me mad but they operate as such a good unit they are tough to keep down, a quick HEC exit will see them concentrating on the league)
6.Glaws (rejuvinated squad and new management team don't throw it away unlike last season where a suicidal approach to the second half of the season cost them)
7.Sale (good squad with a couple of great signings added)
8.LI (lack of grunt up front may be their undoing but with Smith in charge I predict a cup run)
9.Wasps (new team and with the LV Cup and Amlin sacrificed will improve on LY)
10.Bath (seemingly perennial underachievers now, new management same average squad relying too heavilly on individuals, may spring some suprises on the way)
11.Worcester (hard working team but have lost both their flair wingers in the off season)
12.LW (couple of good youngsters will shine as the team sinks to the bottom, should help them get AP contracts in the future though)"

I think that is still a good guess. Gloucester are obviously the ones that could bugger the whole thing up as they can either be brilliant or awful but we will see.

The same could be said for Quins! I can see us finishing first or just as likely sixth. There are far too many unknown factors at the moment for any Quins fan to be too confident of next season. I think we're all a little worried that it may have been a flash in the pan...

Hmm possibly hence why have you finishing third but O'Shea is no fool and Quins have enough resources to hold on to all their best players so it's not to bad for you guys. Care, Robshaw and Marler are currently your only certain call ups with Brown competing with Goode for the reserve 15 slot and JTH likely to be called up and subsequently released before each game you shouldn't be too badly effected.

As long as you succesfully rotate the squad and keep everyone fresh there's no reason you can't compete on two fronts.

perhaps differently from some of you guys i feel it may be sale, exeter and LI that struggle this season. wasps, bath and glouscester to challenge for the top 6.

I'm hopeful for a mid table position for Wasps anything above that will be a bonus given the amount of new signings & players coming back from injury.

At least the depth of the squad is better now.

My main concern, as has been pointed out above, is the perennial weaknesses in the front row. But I'd like to think Dai & Trev know their onions here & you have to trust their judgement.....

I am just pleased we are still in the Prem after last season. Dai Young got the pack scrummaging well in the second half of last season, and the front row won us two crucial home games against Irish and Glaws with penalties from the scrum.

So it is disappointing to lose Broster and Webber for this season, though I think Tom Lindsay is a better all round player than Webber. Payne was a revelation last term and I'm hopeful that young McIntyre will step up.

Wentzel, if fit, and Palmer will be a good lock pairing, and Launchbury, Poff and Haskell (with some keen youngsters lurking on the bench), should mean we have a competitive pack with plenty of 'go forward'. Just stop giving away daft penalties at the breakdown.

My main concern is at 10. Whether he was playing to order I don't know, but Robinson put boot to ball too much last season - and mostly poor kicks too. What's the point of having two try scoring wingers if all they are doing is chasing aimless kicks?

Hopefully The Count will get the backs moving, and I agree with the earlier comment about Chris Bell. In the early part of last season he was superb. We surely can't have as many injuries next season; five first choice players having to retire too.

I will give it another two years and we will be back challenging. Especially if the new ground gets built.

ALLEZ!!!

I thought Young did a superb job with the scrum last season, and I assume that will continue. I think Wasps' backrow resources are as good as any in the AP, and that should see them challenging hard for the top 6. Good backs, decent set piece, no wonership issues, very unlikely to have the same injury crisis. Should be absolutely fine.

Good to hear Wasps want to move inside the M25.

I still think Sarries will finish outside the top 4 - their game plan is too reliant on players like Brits and Burger playing out of their skins - Brits couldn't reproduce his previous form last season and I doubt Burger will be able to after his serious injury either. With the dullest backline in English rugby (Alex Goode excluded) they need to win penalties within scoring range to win games and I think they'll find this harder than they have done before.

I'm interested in how Bath and Worcester get on. Not much in the way of signings, but huge coaching revamps.

How on earth will Wasps raise the £20-30M required to build a new 10K stadium inside the M25?

More likely they will move to a footy ground inside the M25 i'd of thought!

^^^^
To be fair, If they can find an old athletics stadium, they can knock up some temporary stands over the track for around £10M but that's still a fair wedge!

There has been no press release from the club, but I understand that a site has been identified adjacent to the A40 in the Uxbridge/Hillingdon area. This was mentioned at the launch of the new kit just over a week ago. The necessary funds will be made available as it (owning our own ground) is the only way the club can guarantee its future long term.

This will be ideal, as the new location will please the London based fans, and is also a short run down the M40 for the fans from the Wycombe area. Good stuff if it happens.

The awful years under Steve Hayes are over.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:There has been no press release from the club, but I understand that a site has been identified adjacent to the A40 in the Uxbridge/Hillingdon area. This was mentioned at the launch of the new kit just over a week ago. The necessary funds will be made available as it (owning our own ground) is the only way the club can guarantee its future long term.

This will be ideal, as the new location will please the London based fans, and is also a short run down the M40 for the fans from the Wycombe area. Good stuff if it happens.

The awful years under Steve Hayes are over.

Ground ownership is the key. The Tigers were in a exceedingly serendipitous position at the onset of professionalism - the ground (which was already rented at a peppercorn rate) was sold to the club for a pittance by the City council. A West London bespoke site would be ideal for the Wasps if the financing could be arranged long-term.

DaveM dullest backline in England? I do wonder sometimes if you know what you're talking about.....

If you said dullest gameplan then I would agree. If you said the centre selection is a shambles I would agree too.

Of course Saracens relied heavily on Burger with his 3 games in the AP season.....

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=10795&includeref=dynamic

Hound of Harrow I think Uxbridge/Hillingdon area would be perfect. It brings Wasps back into London area and would make a golden triangle of London clubs (being almost equal distance from Twickenham and Barnet).

beshocked wrote:DaveM dullest backline in England? I do wonder sometimes if you know what you're talking about.....

If you said dullest gameplan then I would agree. If you said the centre selection is a shambles I would agree too.

Of course Saracens relied heavily on Burger with his 3 games in the AP season.....

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=10795&includeref=dynamic

Hound of Harrow I think Uxbridge/Hillingdon area would be perfect. It brings Wasps back into London area and would make a golden triangle of London clubs (being almost equal distance from Twickenham and Barnet).

We'll see if it happens. Fairly easy for me to get to Coptall (a bus and a trudge), Quins is about an hour or so. But I can get to Franklins Gardens quicker than Adams Park ffs. We've had most of our success since moving to Wycombe.

I've met some great pals since we rocked up in Wycombe as well.

beshocked wrote:DaveM dullest backline in England? I do wonder sometimes if you know what you're talking about.....

If you said dullest gameplan then I would agree. If you said the centre selection is a shambles I would agree too.

Of course Saracens relied heavily on Burger with his 3 games in the AP season.....

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=10795&includeref=dynamic

Hound of Harrow I think Uxbridge/Hillingdon area would be perfect. It brings Wasps back into London area and would make a golden triangle of London clubs (being almost equal distance from Twickenham and Barnet).

Nice generic insult. It's a backline I wouldn't pay to watch. To me that means it extremely dull.

And I wasn't talking about Burger last season, I was talking about Sarries the season they won the AP. Burger and Brits were sensational, and I predict neither will hit those heights again. So Saracens will have to turn back to that dull backline, and that's why they won't finish top 4 - unless Sorrell wants to be expansive, but even then he's limited by the raw material at his disposal.

Raw material like:

9.de Kock
10.Hodgson
11.Short
12.Barritt
13.Tomkins
14.Ashton
15.Goode

Bench: 21.Wigglesworth, 22.Farrell, 23.Wyles.

That's a pretty decent backline if they can get it moving. Sarries problem was never the raw materials it was that they won the title playing negative rugby and so stuck with what won them the cup rather than trying to evolve into a better team.

A lot seems to be resting on Tomkins this year. Not sure that Gustard bigging him up the other day was wise, only setting him up for a fall and bringing attention to him. However, it might work out

Tomkins was a big money gamble in the backline but with his bestist pal Ashton there and Gustard giving him the media version of a coaches cuddle he should be ready to give everything for Sarries this year. If not then I wonder if we'll see any more of Adam Powell who was great in the 2009/10 season but injured for most of 2010/11 and was way out of favour for last year (though his performances weren't bad).