Your International Team next Season

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Did this in the club section yesterday and it took off well and got a lot of debate going, it's still happening at https://www.606v2.com/t33132p100-your-team-this-coming-season for those who haven't seen it. It translates to International rugby pretty easily.

Put in your team and then your ratings. Try and keep it realistic. 5 is average 10 is the best you could ever be etc.

Then discuss your choices and ratings and those of others. Keep it above the belt. Enjoy

TEAM:

Scrum: /10
Lineout: /10
Kicking game: /10
Breakdown: /10
Defence: /10
Attack: /10
Consistency: /10
Squad Depth: /10
Coaching: /10

Expectations this season:

Players to watch:

Other:



Ok so type it in and see if people think your team should be better or worse at certain things and you can do the same to other teams. Obviously be respectful.

10 - Absolute perfection
09 - Excellent
08 - Very Good
07- Good
06 - Above Average
05 - Average
04 - Below Average
03 - Bad
02 - Very Bad
01 - Apalling

beshocked wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Ben Youngs should be back in October time, probably in time to go and play with England in the AIs though he won't be in great shape so might miss the first one or two to play for Tigers and get his fitness back up.

Beshocked, just because Farrell was in teams that beat the likes of Sexton etc doesn't mean he outplayed them. Take the Sexton example, a large number of the English points were created by the English scrum and forwards. The English tries were as a result of English scrumming dominance as was some of the penalties. Farrell kicked his points in his calm collected way but at no point did he do anything to slice open the Irish defence etc. He offered what he always offers a 10, a reliable and solid option that has some flaws that are magnified on the international stage.

You would think from yours and Geordiefalcon's opinion that a 10s job is to make breaks and score tries. I know being creative and getting the backline going is important but isn't the win more so.

An important part for 10s is to turn the forward's hard work into points on the score board. Farrell Jr does this well.

Geordiefalcon I am not sure how you can even think Priestland played better than Farrell in that match. Must have been a different game....

I think Parling is a bit overrated to be honest but if someone appears to compliment him I will take that back.

Beshocked, it's commendable that you're defending Farrell Jr and the lad has done extremely well in his fledgling career thus far. He has an excellent temperament and solid defence and place kicking ability. His attacking skills are without question below par and you cannot seek to defend him on that score.

I remember from our discussion many moons ago regarding Farrell and Ford, that you advance Farrell on his 'achievements' so far, but you neglect that rugby is a team game. The lad was very solid in the 6N but hardly outshone either Preistland or Sexton, and with the sort of front foot ball in the Ireland game you would've expected him to have done.

In a simple comparison between Farrell as an all round 10 and either Flood, Hodgson or Ford there is simply no comparison. He needs to get the FH birth at Sarries and develop his game from an excellent attacking 10 in Charlie. Then perhaps he could be the complete FH. Something which incidentally is absolutely vital in modern rugby. The FH is NOT just there to kick points a la Morne Steyn. The way forwards is a balanced attacking game, and that's not something England will achieve with Farrell at 10 at present.

And in response to the OP.

TEAM: England

Scrum: 7.5/10 - We've looked very good at times in this area, but i'd have liked to have seen us take it to the Boks a bit more during the Summer. In all though a real strength.

Lineout: 6.5/10 - It's generally been good and Parling has done well with limited options in the Summer. I'd like to see it progress given the possible inclusion of Croft and or Woods.

Kicking game: 6/10 - I'm incorporating place kicking here which has been very good with Farrell doing very well from the tee. I still have yet to see a consistent quality tactical kicking game from England, which could be supplied by either Ford or Burns.

Breakdown: 7/10 - Much much better than under MJ, Robshaw was superb in T1 and Cole, Johnson etc.. add much in that area. I don't buy the need for an openside Messiah and would be happy with a backrow of 6. Croft 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan/Haskell

Defence: 7/10 - Was generally very good in the 6N and the commitment could never be faulted, particularly from B Barritt. Suffered a little naiievty in SA and with Farrell Sr. returning that aggression may do as well.

Attack: 4/10 - This is the biggest area we need to improve. It looked en route under MJ but suffered from Tournament reticence in my view. It requires a quality attacking FH such as Flood with either Ford or Burns to start learning the ropes. The potential is huge, but the key may lie in a good 12/13...?

Consistency: 7/10 - Generally they've been pretty consistent for their age and experience. That's not to say i've been over the moon with performance at times, but they've performed as I would've expected and couldn't say they've dipped below the standards they've set SO FAR.

Squad Depth: 5/10 - Could be a lot higher in terms of 'potential' but some real issues at hooker, FH and TH for me which desperately need addressing this year. Lots of choice but still looking for the super quality.

Coaching: 5/10 - I'm still undecided on Lancaster. I think he's got to grips with some issues off field and culture-wise but i'm always worried about his benches and i'm still not sure what his playing philosophy actually is.

Expectations this season: 3/4 in the AI's if we're to show improvement, along with a 6N Title win. We have the potential and it's time to start setting the bar high. We have to beat the Boks at home for me, and if not I think it'll put us back a whole season's worth of development.

Players to watch: George Ford (i'd like to see him in the 6N) Tom Youngs, Courtney Lawes, Dave Attwood and Johnny May. I've got my fingers crossed for Freddie Bruns but I think he might be eclipsed. Oh and you heard it here first Matt Banahan....

Other: Lots of hope and plenty of luck required to see us start to make some real progress. Please can we let M Botha, P Dowson and M Stevens out into the field of retirement?!

beshocked wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Ben Youngs should be back in October time, probably in time to go and play with England in the AIs though he won't be in great shape so might miss the first one or two to play for Tigers and get his fitness back up.

Beshocked, just because Farrell was in teams that beat the likes of Sexton etc doesn't mean he outplayed them. Take the Sexton example, a large number of the English points were created by the English scrum and forwards. The English tries were as a result of English scrumming dominance as was some of the penalties. Farrell kicked his points in his calm collected way but at no point did he do anything to slice open the Irish defence etc. He offered what he always offers a 10, a reliable and solid option that has some flaws that are magnified on the international stage.

You would think from yours and Geordiefalcon's opinion that a 10s job is to make breaks and score tries. I know being creative and getting the backline going is important but isn't the win more so.

An important part for 10s is to turn the forward's hard work into points on the score board. Farrell Jr does this well.

Geordiefalcon I am not sure how you can even think Priestland played better than Farrell in that match. Must have been a different game....

I think Parling is a bit overrated to be honest but if someone appears to compliment him I will take that back.

No Beshocked i dont think thats the sole responsibility of a 10 and im quite sure Sam doesnt either....HOWEVER it is essential that the 10 is able play on the front foot, have a strong passing game...and if possible running game. Even Johnny regarded by none educated rugby fans as a kicking only 10 was actually a good runner and distributor of the ball in an al round 10 role. Farrell could reach those heights but he needs to work on the attaching side of his game. At 20 he has plenty of time and he has the added bonus of being 6'2 i believe? so a physical presence. Dont get me wrong i hope he does develope his game...as he good be a very special all round 10 who could very well lead us to world cup glory. But he's not even starting for his club at 10 yet...

We will just have to agree to disagree about his game v Priestland.

As for Parling he could be overated but he is a lineout guy who is decent with a bit of pace and does his bit in the rucks. I too would like to see alongside an Attwood or another huge guy...or even Deacon who compliments him very well at leicester....if he doesnt do it...then fair enoiugh we look elsewhere.

Farrell should be nowhere near an Intetnational set up for me. The lad has serious flaws that need to be worked on at club level before he comes back into contention for an England spot.

England attack with Farrell: 2/10
With Flood: 7/10

Addmitably Farrell is a better defender than Flood but that's pretty much all he brings to the table.

Chjw131 I am not denying that Farrell's attacking skills are well below par.

Farrell is still ahead in regards to achievements but Ford is catching him up. Ford could well overtake him this season if he kicks on.

Like Farrell he needs more gametime at 10.

GeordieFalcon Farrell has started at 10 for his club plenty of times, as mentioned he's won an AP title there. Admittedly he didn't play there much at all last season but that's because of Hodgson.

He was moved to 13 to accommodate Hodgson on his arrival at the club. I would expect him to share the 10 shirt with him.

I agree that a fly half does need attacking strengths but let's not neglect defence, kicking abilities and mental strength.

Sgt Pooly no player is perfect. I think plenty of players in the England squad have a lot to prove.

Just as an aside note on the Parling issue. I've watched a few of the summer tests again, and Parling's defence was actually pretty top notch. His lineout waivered a bit here and there, and he wasn't great with ball in hand, but his tackling and rucking work was impressive. He's not the biggest guy, but I saw him dishing out a bit of nasty at rucks and mauls, which was great to see. He does need to be partnered with an enforcer though.

Farrell for me, does have skills to offer England, as he has shown. I just don't think it's his time yet.

The fact that he is being kept out of te sarries ten spot by a player most fans would agree is a good club player but never quite made it as an international is why at the moment he should not be selected for the national team. Saxons by all means.....its a development team.

bluestonevedder unfortunately if you are picked in a side as lineout man you need to perform in that role!

Maybe I am being unfairly harsh on Parling but I have seen players offering more than him, particularly in the lineout getting a brutal beating by us armchair fans.

Hodgson never made it as an international..... 36 caps would beg to differ.

In your eyes who has made it.....

What does international class in your eyes mean?

Other than Flood who would be your 10s then? Obviously you see Flood as international class. Where are these other international class 10s who are vastly superior to Farrell Jr?

I thought England were absolutely rubbish in the world cup but none of those players are given as much of a kicking as some players.

I felt really sorry for Hodgson in the recent 6 nations. The centre partnership of Farrell-Barritt was admittedly very uncreative and he had to put up with Youngs' woeful performances (a couple of cameos vs demoralised opposition has inflated his worth recently)

Still managed two tries.

For example Ben Foden's royal man sausage up in the Italy game - gifting the opposition two tries is glossed over because Hodgson spared England's blushes.

"(a couple of cameos vs demoralised opposition has inflated his worth recently)"

At what point were SA demoralised?

All those caps for hodgson because bar johnny we had no int. Class tens. And he didnt set the world alight in those games.

As for who else...thats the concern. There are none. Which is why England have suffered. Flood has to be no.1 but he is hardly irreplaceable...

For some reason you seem to think your beloved sarries players are being singled out...and I admire your defence of them, hut look back and you'll see most of the players have had a kicking since the world cup. Hartley, Marler, Morgan, the second rows, youngs has been hammered, Ashton, even young wades defence apparently means hes now the new Varndell for god sake.

And as for better lineout guys...who knows in a stronger team Borthwick might have been sensational...we wont know...(that is who you were refering to isnt it? )

Why is so much being based on achievement??

If the criteria for selection was the players previous achievements then Wilkinson would hardly have been picked back in the day.

Farrel has faults to his game, at Int level in ANY position you need to have the complete skill set required for that position, he doesn't so he shouldn't really be there.

What is clear is that in this season we will see who really steps up to the plate for their clubs....and there is a lot to keep an eye on but the main ones are probably...

Farrell at Sarries
Ford at Leicester
Heathcote at Bath
Burns at Glos

And dont forget for all ive argued above...Farrell does have the advantage of playing games for England ....and in one of the most hostile arenas...South Africa! He can only learn from that...what is expected of him.

Lets hope (if your an England fan) that all of them really sort out their weaknesses and give the selectors a major selection headache....aswell as the opposition

You would think from yours and Geordiefalcon's opinion that a 10s job is to make breaks and score tries. I know being creative and getting the backline going is important but isn't the win more so.

An important part for 10s is to turn the forward's hard work into points on the score board. Farrell Jr does this well.

No, to turn the teams hard won penalties into points is the kicker's job. That may be the same person as the fly half but isn't necessarily the main role of the number 10. The 10 is a tactician and organiser first and a creative attacking threat second any other responsbilities come after that for me. Even Morne Steyn offers more than just 3 point kicking ability, although, he is much maligned he can reliably kick brilliantly from hand and dictate where on the field his team play.

I felt really sorry for Hodgson in the recent 6 nations

Got to say, whilst I have never been a fan of Hodgson in an England shirt he had little to no hope in those opening 6N games. Farrell was useless at 12 as he had no got the confidence to move the ball and lacks the physique to smash the ball up, Barritt looked lost at 13 and was there only to tackle whilst the forwards were still adapting and barely offering anything in attack. Add to that Lancaster insisted on picked the country's most attacking minded 9 (whilst not fully fit) and insisted he played conservatively. Those first couple of games were awful and two charge down tries massively saved us.

As a neutral I was very impressed by Farrell in the 6N, seems to have nerves of steel when it comes to place kicking.

However I thought he was awful against the Boks in the first test (or was it the 2nd?). Looked totally out of his depth and gave one of the worst performances I've seen from an international 10. His descision making was really poor.

What does that mean? Not much but I thought I'd share it anyways.

Do any England fans think we'll see the rise of another tighthead to fight with Cole for his shirt this season?

Right now it's just Cole and then Stevens covering across which is a pretty terrifying idea! Are there many young prospects coming through at the clubs? Or could Corbs switch and Marler play at loosehead?

I'd be happy with PDJ at TH, at least he can scrummage. After that we're looking at Thomas etc coming through really.

Its a worry Yappy. Henry Thomas? Maybe gold can get Davy Wilson playing good stuff again. Maybe the tigers can actually sort Brookes out....what the hell has happened to him.

Further down the line at the falcons we have Scott Wilson who could be immense. Big lad...and a big scrummager. Captain of sedbergh school and England player. He will get blooded this season in the championship....and can only learn from Murray.theres a clip of him on the falcons thread.

Rodders that pretty sums up the young Farrell. He has the attributes to be a great 10 he just lacks the experience to control a game which is what he will need to rely on as he lacks the natural attacking abilities of England's other options. That's not to say he can't develop his attacking skills and decision making though. He's a good prospect but currently not international standard.

We've got a few more good prospects coming though as well in Burns, Ford and Heathcote. It's just a question as to which will step up to international standard first. Currently Farrell is in the lead as you'd expect as he is older than Ford and Heathcote with more first team experience. Burns is quickly catching him though so he's one to watch having had a lot of first team rugby at Glaws.

Maybe the tigers can actually sort Brookes out....what the hell has happened to him.

Horriffic leg break against the Falcons at the start of last season. Hopefully back for the start of this season though it may take some time for him to be fully right after the injury, I heard (not from an official source) that it took two fairly big operations. One shortly after the game and another Dec/Jan time.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Further down the line at the falcons we have Scott Wilson who could be immense. Big lad...and a big scrummager. Captain of sedbergh school and England player. He will get blooded this season in the championship....and can only learn from Murray.theres a clip of him on the falcons thread.

Is there a reason why Scott Wilson decided to play for England? From what I've read he's a born and bred (Scottish) Border.

God, just watched that video on Scott Wilson- he's a hell of a big boy. Great carrying too.

Regarding PDJ- I was very unimpressed with him on tour this summer, and to be honest, would rather see Thomas groomed as the TH replacement to Cole. Can Mullan play TH too?

No Mullan is a straight up loosehead. There's Henry Sinckler at Quins, he is a real beast and a mobile one to boot. If Quins have any sense they'll start drip feeding him experience quickly as alongside Marler he will be a great player. Doesn't have the big impact in the hit Johnson has but he has much better technique and actually binds legally which would cost Quins less penalties.

TEAM: Wales

Scrum: 7/10
Lineout: 4/10
Kicking game: 6/10
Breakdown: 7/10
Defence: 9/10
Attack: 7/10
Consistency: 9/10
Squad Depth: 7/10
Coaching: 8/10

Expectations this season:
6ns victory.
SH scalp x 2 (South Africa & Australia)

Players to watch:
Ken Owens (Think he'll establish himself as 1st choice hooker pretty quickly and hopefully help transform our lineout which has been a real weakpoint)
Craig Mitchell (to prove he is more than just an able back-up to Adam Jones)
Justin Tipuric (more of a modern Martyn Williams than ive seen across the globe, pilferer and link man extraordinaire)
Rhys Webb (i really think this is the season for Webb to become a viable option to Phillips as 1st choice scrumhalf)
Morgan Stoddart (hopefully he can return to his form pre-legbreak, he was scintillating in attack and 1st choice FB/wing).

Ah yeh, Sinckler absolutely tore it up at the JRWC. Very impressive lad, and a beast in the loose too.

Comfort wrote:Morgan Stoddart (hopefully he can return to his form pre-legbreak, he was scintillating in attack and 1st choice FB/wing).

Really really like Stoddart as a player. He had discovered a rich vein of form before his injury prior to the WC, and looked so dangerous every time he got the ball. Very different winger to your current starters, but I expect him to pick himself up and get back in the squad. All the best to him.

Sam,

I didnt realise it was so serious. I thought it was other reasons for his "disappearance". Hope the lad gets sorted....he was a real prospect.

CP10
He's a berwick lad...borders. He has played for England age.groups. He could certainly elect for Scotland of course....but we shall see.

Blueston - absolutey agree! he always threatened to be a really good player at test level but didnt seem to make the step up initially, his form was excellant before that break so it was very disappointing. On the plus side, we did get to develop Halfpenny as a FB too. So hopefully our back 3 next year will be picked out of the following:

North/Cuthbert - strictly wings
Stoddart/Halfpenny - FB/Wings

Throw in the promising youngsters like Liam Williams & Harry Robinson and fingers crossed we'll be able to add some more 'rapier' attack to the 'bludgeon' we currently use through the backs.

Very true about developing Halfpenny Comfort, good point. I guess that's the silver lining! Wales could have a brilliant wing/fullback rotation next year, providing all their players maintain their form. Exciting stuff for you guys!

Comfort wrote:
TEAM : WALES

Expectations this season:
6ns victory.
SH scalp x 2 (South Africa & Australia)

When are we playing South Africa?

bluestonevedder wrote:God, just watched that video on Scott Wilson- he's a hell of a big boy. Great carrying too.

Regarding PDJ- I was very unimpressed with him on tour this summer, and to be honest, would rather see Thomas groomed as the TH replacement to Cole. Can Mullan play TH too?

PDJ played extremely well in the set piece especially in the 'A games. He looked poor when replacing Marler but he's not a good LH at all. At least we know he can scrummage which is something Stevens, Thomas struggle with.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:God, just watched that video on Scott Wilson- he's a hell of a big boy. Great carrying too.

Regarding PDJ- I was very unimpressed with him on tour this summer, and to be honest, would rather see Thomas groomed as the TH replacement to Cole. Can Mullan play TH too?

PDJ played extremely well in the set piece especially in the 'A games. He looked poor when replacing Marler but he's not a good LH at all. At least we know he can scrummage which is something Stevens, Thomas struggle with.

I wouldn't say Thomas struggles with scrummaging at all. Against the Barbarians, PDJ just didn't impress me, even in the set piece. I thought he was weak in the scrums too to be honest, and offered little at the breakdown or loose. I used to champion PDJ's inclusion in the EPS, but I really think he's taken some steps back. One aspect of his game I do think he is very good at at the moment is the driving maul. His control at the front is very very good.

Thomas gets some right hammerings at AP level. I can't recall PDJ taking a backward step once in the scrum in SA (except at LH)

Some of the scrums in the Barbarians game were pretty woeful from what I remember. Both games are on youtube, so might be worth a watch again at some point.

Think we'll just have to agree to disagree Pooly.

I didnt realise it was so serious. I thought it was other reasons for his "disappearance". Hope the lad gets sorted....he was a real prospect

Yeah it was a real shame Geordie. It was the reason we brought in Mulipola in on trial and then a short term deal. As in the second half of the season we only had Ayerza, Stanko (with an iffy shoulder), White and Bucknall. Bucknall has since gone and White was always going to struggle to play a full 80 mins. Bit unfortunate as that was the time for Brookes to shine and instead Tigers have picked up another young juggernaught who can play both sides.

Still, Brookes could get a good run out during the AIs and stake a claim from there. I'd really like to see a front row of Mulipola, Youngs, Brookes. So much power in the loose and strength in the scrum! That will depend on Youngs being called up by England and Samoa nicking off with Mulipola. Could be a tough AI period with only Stanko and Brookes left actually... good job most of those games are LV Cup and we can get away with fielding Bower and Harris (maybe even Balmain to make his debut).

wales606 wrote:

Comfort wrote:
TEAM : WALES

Expectations this season:
6ns victory.
SH scalp x 2 (South Africa & Australia)

When are we playing South Africa?

its been a long day in the office, ignore me.

Some of the scrums in the Barbarians game were pretty woeful from what I remember. Both games are on youtube, so might be worth a watch again at some point

From what I remember of the midweek games the English pack held up pretty well considering the opposition were generally a lot bigger. That hulking unit that Mullan managed to handle so well for instance, he was gigantic. The second row of Kitchener and Robson was hardly a big engine to propel them forward either, both those guys are really more lineout operator style locks.

bluestonevedder wrote:Some of the scrums in the Barbarians game were pretty woeful from what I remember. Both games are on youtube, so might be worth a watch again at some point.

Think we'll just have to agree to disagree Pooly.

We'll have to mate, I remember us dominating on the most in the midweek games.

TEAM: England

Scrum: 8/10- good, not in the class of the very best
Lineout: 6/10- hope to be proved wrong, looked vulnerable in SA
Kicking game: 6.5/10- Has looked shaky, esp out of hand
Breakdown: 8/10 - 2 of Robshaw, Haskell, Wood or Croft, plus Cole chipping in = good times
Defence: 8/10 - was worse in SA but I expect it to be better next season
Attack: 6.5/10- hope I get proved wrong. Think it will be better than last season but our attack was fairly uninventive
Consistency: 8/10- looks like a strength of the side
Squad Depth: 7/10- vast strength in some areas (FB, 2 tops SHs, LH prop) but very weak in others (7,8)
Coaching: 7/10 - it's going OK, Lancaster needs to sort his bench out though

Expectations this season: Win the 6N. Win at least 1 test against big 3. Preferably all 3

Players to watch: Marler, Goode/Foden/Brown, Wade, Allen, the return of Wood?

Other:



Ok so type it in and see if people think your team should be better or worse at certain things and you can do the same to other teams. Obviously be respectful.

The way I did the club one was by comparing each area to the best Club's (e.g., Chiefs = 10 in attack), so here I'm comparing against the best Country. Usually the ABs... 10 is not perfection because it doesn't exist except as an abstract concept or a finite score system (which are inherently flawed) and so I am not using perfection as a measure. 96% is technically a 10/10 anyway.

formerly known as Sam wrote:No Mullan is a straight up loosehead. There's Henry Sinckler at Quins, he is a real beast and a mobile one to boot. If Quins have any sense they'll start drip feeding him experience quickly as alongside Marler he will be a great player. Doesn't have the big impact in the hit Johnson has but he has much better technique and actually binds legally which would cost Quins less penalties.

Ha, you will never let that go will you Sam?

Maybe once the new season starts Yappy. It certainly was annoying at the time.

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Players to watch: Marler, Goode/Foden/Brown, Wade, Allen, the return of Wood?

Really looking forward to Wood's return. Quality player, in every facet of the game. Will be interesting to see how he fits in the backrow now that so many players are available. Without question, he is an absolute work horse, similar to Robshaw. A backrow of 6. Robshaw 7. Wood 8. Crane would definitely get so much of the grunt work done to a high standard, and both flankers are very good fetchers. Here's to a full recovery on his part.

Blue......Crane?

Yeh, I was thinking about 8s who offer a decent level of grunt work. Morgan's great with ball in hand, but isn't the best at rucks or mauls (or the fittest). Waldrom similarly makes decent breaks but offers little apart from that. Easter's out of favor even though he's decent at the breakdown. Haskell is just not an internaitonal 8...yet...?

More speculative backrow to be honest Pooly, I was literally just thinking of players with tireless engines. It's one of perhaps 20 or so backrow combinations we could field in the next year!

Yea you're not wrong.

I think we need to stick with the Croft/Robshaw/Morgan combo myself. I think this has a bit of everything and could grow well together.

Morgan gets a bad rap for some average performances in SA but looked the real deal in the 6N. He's still a bit raw but has real dynamism which we've lacked. I never rated Crane that highly myself, even less so after his prolonged absence. I very much doubt he'll come back a better player.

I think Croft, Robshaw, Morgan is our best backrow, although whether Tom Johnson will have his place pressurised by Wood's return is the real question at the moment. Finding the appropriate cover for Croft during the AIs is the pressing matter, and if another player puts their hand up during this time, then that's added competition for place- which is great.

You're right about Morgan. He was excellent in the 6N, made some good breaks against SA, but ultimately I think he was let down by his fitness. I'm hoping he's focused on it over the summer, and starts really well with Goucester this season. He's just got such raw power and stability, but just needs to hone the other physcial specs to go with it.

Crane is a mystery at the moment to be honest. He isn't a flashy 8, but he's a real hard runner, gaining ground in the tight exchanges, and getting through a lot of work. He's had a lot of time out, and I just hope he's remained conditioned. Twitter feeds (I really apologise for my source here) suggest he's been enjoying his time off, but also he appears to have lost a lot of bulk.

Hopefully he's gained a bit of pace, he was too slow to make the step up to full Int pre injury. Very good Prem player though and great poor weather 8.

Crane is a mystery at the moment to be honest. He isn't a flashy 8, but he's a real hard runner, gaining ground in the tight exchanges, and getting through a lot of work. He's had a lot of time out, and I just hope he's remained conditioned. Twitter feeds (I really apologise for my source here) suggest he's been enjoying his time off, but also he appears to have lost a lot of bulk

From what I saw of him as a water boy he didn't look like he had lost any bulk, he still looks pretty massive. You say he's not a flashy player but that is because he plays at Tigers and we don't really like our 8s pretending to be backs, we want the making yards with the ball. For all the hype over Waldrom's skillset I'd bet my mortgage on Crane beating him in a drop goal contest. Crane has a beautiful boot on him for a forward and if you go back and watch the Saxons games he has a good passing range (he used to stand at first receiver ala Robshaw for Tigers).

Sgt yeah I can't see him being much quicker, but does he need to be? I've seen him make the occasional barnstorming run and whilst he is never going to do a Spies and race away under the posts he's make yards off of every carry and get through twice as much work. Robshaw, Wood, Johnson and Croft are all pacey enough (especially Croft), Crane is at least as quick as Easter and he picks some serious good lines off of the scrum half.

If he's back in form I'd want him in the England squad. We have the pace what we are lacking is the grunt and the players to make the differences around the fringes and make Ben Youngs life easier. That was pretty much Crane's job at Tigers so he could be a very handy stop gap for a couple of seasons whilst Gray and Fearns learn their trade.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Maybe once the new season starts Yappy. It certainly was annoying at the time.

Didn't some other props bind on the arms of their oppos last season? And post xmas he had pretty much stopped doing it either way, he doesn't need to now that he's figured out how to use his weight and refs have stopped pinging him for nothing.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Crane is a mystery at the moment to be honest. He isn't a flashy 8, but he's a real hard runner, gaining ground in the tight exchanges, and getting through a lot of work. He's had a lot of time out, and I just hope he's remained conditioned. Twitter feeds (I really apologise for my source here) suggest he's been enjoying his time off, but also he appears to have lost a lot of bulk

From what I saw of him as a water boy he didn't look like he had lost any bulk, he still looks pretty massive. You say he's not a flashy player but that is because he plays at Tigers and we don't really like our 8s pretending to be backs, we want the making yards with the ball. For all the hype over Waldrom's skillset I'd bet my mortgage on Crane beating him in a drop goal contest. Crane has a beautiful boot on him for a forward and if you go back and watch the Saxons games he has a good passing range (he used to stand at first receiver ala Robshaw for Tigers).

Sgt yeah I can't see him being much quicker, but does he need to be? I've seen him make the occasional barnstorming run and whilst he is never going to do a Spies and race away under the posts he's make yards off of every carry and get through twice as much work. Robshaw, Wood, Johnson and Croft are all pacey enough (especially Croft), Crane is at least as quick as Easter and he picks some serious good lines off of the scrum half.

If he's back in form I'd want him in the England squad. We have the pace what we are lacking is the grunt and the players to make the differences around the fringes and make Ben Youngs life easier. That was pretty much Crane's job at Tigers so he could be a very handy stop gap for a couple of seasons whilst Gray and Fearns learn their trade.

Not questioning his footballing skills at all- I know he's brilliant at the kick throughs, and his kicking nerve was showed when we beat Cardiff during the penalty shoot out. What I meant by flashy was exactly what you went on to describe- the trademarks runs like Spies, or Heaslip make.

I think Crane's got a far better and diverse skillset to Waldrom. I would start him over the tank any day.

Regarding Crane's size, I certainly think he has lost a few kgs. But, maybe he's putting it all back on now for the start of the season, we never know. Eitherway, I'm looking forward to having him back playing. I've missed seeing his blue scrum cap darting around.

True Blue, true. I'd also start him over the Tank every week. It was annoying at times last season when Leicester had a good drive on and Waldrom would lose control at the base and Youngs would be mobbed by about three of the opposition (happened in the second test as well I think). Crane has that great ability to keep in almost glued to his feet whether going forwards or backwards. Be interesting to see how he fares in pre season, I'm tempted to get a ticket for the Notts game.

Didn't some other props bind on the arms of their oppos last season? And post xmas he had pretty much stopped doing it either way, he doesn't need to now that he's figured out how to use his weight and refs have stopped pinging him for nothing.

Yeah, but he did it in every scrum bar one in the two games over Quins towards the end of last season. He allowed Ayerza the bind once and got taken to technical school at the Stoop but knew that if he got the hit on and denied Ayerza the bind he was away. So that's what he did. Cockers ended up having to sub Ayerza in the final because he was running the risk of picking up a yellow from Barnes. Marcos was not a happy bunny with the officiating (neither were the Tigers coaches, players or fans). Luckily Waldrom and Alesana did most the damage to Tigers chances so the scrum wasn't a deciding factor, with Quins deserving the victory.