Who Is The World's Best Returner Of Serve?

The return of serve, as you all know, is a key element to anyone's game. And it's not just getting the ball back in play. Of course, when your opponent hits a 135mph serve down the T the ability to get it back and make him/her play one extra shot is important. However we have seen returning taken to new levels. Now not only is it a shot to ensure you are still in a point; a good return, of a fast first serve, could also enable you to take charge of the point.
Having looked at the ATP stats 4 players have consistently stood out in the percentage of returning games; unsurprisingly these 4 players are Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal, Novak Djokovic, and Andy Murray.
To investigate who is the best returner I will run through the top 4, and their returning skills.

Roger Federer:
1st Serve Return:
The World Number 1 is on top form at the moment; and his return of serve was crucial in his Wimbledon victory last month.
Federer actually has many variations on his first serve returns. Which return he uses his largely down to the pace of the serve. Normally if he gets a fast serve (130mph+) on his backhand side he will stick his racket and out and block it with a bit of slice. The ball will not necessarily land on the baseline, but the slice does mean the ball moves upon landing, so the put away is not a dolly drop. Meanwhile if he gets a fast serve to his forehand his reaction is totally different. Rather than block it Roger will take his racket back slightly and knock the ball back. He uses his fast racket-hand speed and agility to generate pace and depth on the ball, rather than a long take-back. However if a ball is hit with pace at his body Federer simply blocks the ball with his backhand. I do believe that Federer is the best in the world at this 'block' using his fast hand-eye co-ordination to get the ball back in play. This is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaIoB2RYKZg
However if a first serve was hit without as much pace (eg 115-125mph) Federer plays a normal ground-stroke. On the backhand he normally stands his ground and follows through the shot; while on his forehand he would sometimes take a step forward for extra propulsion.
2nd Serve Return:
For me Federer's second serve return is one of the poorer aspects of his game. His forehand return is not the problem when facing a second serve. He would, as expected, normally hit through his forehand when he can and try and take charge of the rally. However you will find that the majority of top players, especially Nadal, will send the topspin second serve to Federer's backhand. For a good reason. Federer loves slicing the ball back with the backhand, which gives his opponent the chance to take the initiative in the rally. Sometimes it works, the ball does slice low which can make it awkward, but as Del Potro showed today it can be punished. Federer's alternative, and for me a shot he doesn't use often enough, is when he runs around his backhand and sets up his forehand. Such is Federer's posture that the opponent cannot tell if Federer would steer the forehand down the line or cross-court; and hence Federer can take control of the point with a rocket forehand.
2012 Returning Games Won: 28%


Novak Djokovic:
1st Serve Return:
Novak Djokovic's return has always been one of his biggest strengths. Djokovic has a muscular but flexible body frame and a strong forehand and double handed backhand. I believe that in 2011 it was actually the key shot which helped him beat Rafael Nadal so many times in a row. As a Nadal fan I felt that Nadal's service games were not his service games; but just a 'game.' Nadal simply did not have any advantage on serve.
So how does Djokovic create this feeling? Well firstly as I said before his body is very very flexible. He can stretch and stretch and then make such a contact with the ball that it is returned with penetration. His double handed backhand return is the best shot in Djokovic's armoury for me, from nowhere he can hit the ball back right on the baseline. This is why I believe that the best tactic players can use against Djokovic is the body serve. Funnily enough Djokovic loves it when the ball is away from him but when the ball is right at him he can never return with the same penetration. However although the body serve against Djokovic will put you in charge of the point it will not deliver unreturnables or cheap points. Also if you use the body serve too much Novak will read it, get out of the way and take the ball on, so variety is key.
2nd serve return:
Djokovic likes standing up to these and hitting the ball back fast and hard. You will not see him step up the court to receive second serves, however he can deliver such power from the back of the court that this is not needed. Opponents know when they face Djokovic that if they do deliver a slow second serve Djokovic will be there to punish it.
2012 Returning Games Won: 35%


Andy Murray:
1st Serve Return:
Murray's 1st serve return, as Murray fans will know, is a key strength to Murray's game and one that will help him gain success in the present and future.
Like Djokovic, Murray has a double handed backhand return which Murray can play with depth and penetration, even when the ball is not near him. However the key difference between Murray's return and Djokovic's return is the footwork. While Djokovic likes to stand his ground and stretch towards the ball to get his depth, Murray takes a few short steps to the ball and sticks his racket out. Murray's timing his normally spectacular and hence he can use this return as a springboard. His reaction speeds are as quick as anyone's, and this is also crucial as well as his perfectionist timing. Like Djokovic though, Murray's backhand return of the first serve is slightly stronger than his second.
2nd Serve Return:
This is one area where I would like to see Murray get more aggressive and take charge of the point. Too often in the past I have seen Murray happy to sit back hand hit the ball back and start a 50-50 rally rather than trying to take the initiative. However to be fair to Murray I believe with Lendl Murray has improved this aspect of his game, and is now more aggressive on the second serve return. This, although a risk, is crucial for Andy; he must step up and hit through it!
2012 Returning Games Won: 31%


Rafael Nadal:
1st Serve Return:
Nadal likes to take a step back when up against a fast server, and naturally so, as this gives him more time. To fully understand Nadal's tactic in returning serve we must understand his approach to a returning game. His aim is, using his phenomenal defensive skills, to stay in as many rallies as possible. In-fact if not anything Nadal loves longer, more gruelling rallies where he is on the defence but turns it around using his counter-punching skills. On the forehand side he stands back and hits a topspin shot, with high net clearance. The high net clearance and topspin ensure Nadal buys enough time to get in the middle of the court and 'hold stall.' The high bounce can also make it awkward for the opposition to attack, however if you have a solid backhand like Djokovic who can take the ball on the rise, or are 6"7 like Del Potro who can blast it back, Nadal can find himself in trouble. His backhand return is slightly lower than his forehand, definitely lower net clearance, and this means there is a greater chance of him missing the return on the backhand. Although it does not have the topspin and height of the FH return, the backhand is generally more penetrating.
2nd Serve Return:
Nadal does stand further up the baseline when returning a second serve, but is rarely seen 'inside' the baseline. His return is quite similar to the 1st serve, but as he has slightly more time he can produce more depth, and use his forehand to create angles which open up the court. On his backhand return he tends to 'drive' the ball, and hence the shot is much flatter than his 1st serve BH return.
Overall on service return, even though Nadal probably gets the most balls back into play I do not feel it is as good as Murray, or Djokovic's as he does not use it to take the initiative. Nevertheless we must consider it fits Nadal's game very well, and the high bouncing topspin forehand not only buys time but can also make it awkward for some opponents (especially players with singles handed backhand).
2012 Returning Games Won: 38%

So: Who do think is the best returner of serve in the world?
Will be interesting to hear your views,
IMBL

All I can say is Del Potro not far away from these 4, today he returned Fed's serve with such interest that Fed stopped serving wide and mostly kep it on the T and body.

Of the top 4 I see everybody as closesly matched and everybody have a different style, Fed got the best defensive return, where as Djoko got the most aggressive return and Andy got the best return in terms of combination while Nadal got the post potent return.

Murray

Simply because he's the one player who generally gets anyones serve back with interest and since he's started being aggresive on second serves, he's even more potent

For me Andy will end up being the best returner ever, with the possible exception of the great Agassi

Incidentally, you won't find me being as bullish about his own serve - better though it is now

banbrotam wrote:Murray

Simply because he's the one player who generally gets anyones serve back with interest and since he's started being aggresive on second serves, he's even more potent

For me Andy will end up being the best returner ever, with the possible exception of the great Agassi

Incidentally, you won't find me being as bullish about his own serve - better though it is now

Interesting.

But what about Djokovic's return? For me it's slightly better than Murray's.

invisiblecoolers wrote:All I can say is Del Potro not far away from these 4, today he returned Fed's serve with such interest that Fed stopped serving wide and mostly kep it on the T and body.

Of the top 4 I see everybody as closesly matched and everybody have a different style, Fed got the best defensive return, where as Djoko got the most aggressive return and Andy got the best return in terms of combination while Nadal got the post potent return.

I actually think that Feds return, relative to his skill is surprisingly poor these days. In some ways I think he conserves energy now for the big points, i.e. is happy to let return games though - which of course is testament to a player with the best serve and first shot ever, bar Sampras

And please, just becasue DP took Roger to a tight third set after playing virtually no-one so far - doesn't mean he's back. It was arguably Roger's worst first set in around two years

It Must Be Love wrote:

banbrotam wrote:Murray

Simply because he's the one player who generally gets anyones serve back with interest and since he's started being aggresive on second serves, he's even more potent

For me Andy will end up being the best returner ever, with the possible exception of the great Agassi

Incidentally, you won't find me being as bullish about his own serve - better though it is now

Interesting.

But what about Djokovic's return? For me it's slightly better than Murray's.

Last year it was in that 9 month spell, when no-one in the history of the game could get near him. But 'normal' Nole (still good enough to win a Slam every year by the way!!) for me doesn't have the same instinct as Andy

Both of course beat themselves up when they miss returning great first serves, but Andy actually expects to get every ball back because his (as I think you said) is more reflex based and is hence more natural. Basically, he is more of an instinctive player than Novak (and hence far more vulnerable to defeat)

In fairness both are great and are continually under-rated, simply because of the other two, i.e. a Tennis world with these two as the top dogs, will still be a pretty good world

banbrotam wrote:

invisiblecoolers wrote:All I can say is Del Potro not far away from these 4, today he returned Fed's serve with such interest that Fed stopped serving wide and mostly kep it on the T and body.

Of the top 4 I see everybody as closesly matched and everybody have a different style, Fed got the best defensive return, where as Djoko got the most aggressive return and Andy got the best return in terms of combination while Nadal got the post potent return.

I actually think that Feds return, relative to his skill is surprisingly poor these days. In some ways I think he conserves energy now for the big points, i.e. is happy to let return games though - which of course is testament to a player with the best serve and first shot ever, bar Sampras

And please, just becasue DP took Roger to a tight third set after playing virtually no-one so far - doesn't mean he's back. It was arguably Roger's worst first set in around two years

It was a good match by Del Potro, let's give him credit

But I do think Del Potro's returning is very poor compared to the top 4. From time to time he blasts the ball back, but generally he struggles with the body serve and can't stretch if the ball is placed well.

Banb, IC did you read the paragraph on Federer's 2nd serve return?
Would you agree with my analysis than he should run around it?

It Must Be Love wrote:Banb, IC did you read the paragraph on Federer's 2nd serve return?
Would you agree with my analysis than he should run around it?

Indeed he should. But I'm always perplexed by Roger's approach for a lot of the time when he faces the serve. I mean it's not as though he can't be the best returner when he wants to - look at the last two sets of the Wimby final for instance

I honestly think he sees the 'honour' in concentrating on dominating with your own serve and almost refuses to scrap for a chance of, say, two breaks per set like Murray and Nole do - as if he plays the game by having periods of regal dominance, not scrapping for every point

In fairness, it's this what I like about Roger. He's a one-off!!

It Must Be Love wrote:Banb, IC did you read the paragraph on Federer's 2nd serve return?
Would you agree with my analysis than he should run around it?

I agree he is at times passive on 2nd serve, but he is the master he knows what to do , I at times marvel how good his brain reacts to situations, so I wont change his game nor advice him to change anything even if he is ready to listen to my advice.

I still think Djokovic has the best return followed closely by Murray. They can both stand anywhere and make the best of any of their options. Once Murray fully internalises the aggressive mentality he may surpass Djokovic. Then comes, after a noticeable distance these days, Fed, I think he should just hit over the backhand second serve return instead of slicing. With Nadal I've seen nothing particularly special about his returning. I remember at the Australian open he was standing 4-5m back to receive and that's on a hard court. I think his %age return games won is more down to his defensive skills but then maybe I don't watch him enough.

banbrotam wrote:

invisiblecoolers wrote:All I can say is Del Potro not far away from these 4, today he returned Fed's serve with such interest that Fed stopped serving wide and mostly kep it on the T and body.

Of the top 4 I see everybody as closesly matched and everybody have a different style, Fed got the best defensive return, where as Djoko got the most aggressive return and Andy got the best return in terms of combination while Nadal got the post potent return.

I actually think that Feds return, relative to his skill is surprisingly poor these days. In some ways I think he conserves energy now for the big points, i.e. is happy to let return games though - which of course is testament to a player with the best serve and first shot ever, bar Sampras

And please, just becasue DP took Roger to a tight third set after playing virtually no-one so far - doesn't mean he's back. It was arguably Roger's worst first set in around two years

At the risk again of antagonizing the legions of federer fans I have to agree. Roger's return is highly overrated he is good at getting the first serve back but he has never had a good topspin backhand return in terms of being aggressive with the shot. For me I disagree that Murray's return is better or more aggressive. However I think the gap between the two is not that much, although I think Novak is maybe a half notch better and the best returner in the game. In fact, Nadal principally beat him at wimbeldon by taking advantage of his weak backhand return and turning Roger's chipped returns into meatballs in wimby 08 and 07 frankly. How hard was it in those two matches for Roger to break Nadal who is not the second coming of Sampras. All because Nadal has a good kick serve and used it mercilessly against the fed chip backhand return serving there like 95 percent of the time on second serve and most of the time on first as well.

Lets remember when doing this analysis Djokovic lead the ATP tour in 2011 and 2010 in break percentage. This year again I think he is either first or second and again is ahead of murray in breaks. Although I will say this Novak didn't return particularly well today. Murray did serve great but in general this whole tournament Novak has had to rely on his serve as opposed to his return. I don't think he took to returning the serve on this incarnation of the wimbeldon surface which seems to be playing a big faster and giving out more unpredictable bounces than the wimbeldon tournament proper. Don't want to take credit away from Andy's serving because I think it was brilliant. But Novak hasn't broken well this whole tournament even when taking into consideration that this is grass.

socal1976 wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

invisiblecoolers wrote:All I can say is Del Potro not far away from these 4, today he returned Fed's serve with such interest that Fed stopped serving wide and mostly kep it on the T and body.

Of the top 4 I see everybody as closesly matched and everybody have a different style, Fed got the best defensive return, where as Djoko got the most aggressive return and Andy got the best return in terms of combination while Nadal got the post potent return.

I actually think that Feds return, relative to his skill is surprisingly poor these days. In some ways I think he conserves energy now for the big points, i.e. is happy to let return games though - which of course is testament to a player with the best serve and first shot ever, bar Sampras

And please, just becasue DP took Roger to a tight third set after playing virtually no-one so far - doesn't mean he's back. It was arguably Roger's worst first set in around two years

At the risk again of antagonizing the legions of federer fans I have to agree. Roger's return is highly overrated he is good at getting the first serve back but he has never had a good topspin backhand return in terms of being aggressive with the shot. For me I disagree that Murray's return is better or more aggressive. However I think the gap between the two is not that much, although I think Novak is maybe a half notch better and the best returner in the game. In fact, Nadal principally beat him at wimbeldon by taking advantage of his weak backhand return and turning Roger's chipped returns into meatballs in wimby 08 and 07 frankly. How hard was it in those two matches for Roger to break Nadal who is not the second coming of Sampras. All because Nadal has a good kick serve and used it mercilessly against the fed chip backhand return serving there like 95 percent of the time on second serve and most of the time on first as well.

Lets remember when doing this analysis Djokovic lead the ATP tour in 2011 and 2010 in break percentage. This year again I think he is either first or second and again is ahead of murray in breaks. Although I will say this Novak didn't return particularly well today. Murray did serve great but in general this whole tournament Novak has had to rely on his serve as opposed to his return. I don't think he took to returning the serve on this incarnation of the wimbeldon surface which seems to be playing a big faster and giving out more unpredictable bounces than the wimbeldon tournament proper. Don't want to take credit away from Andy's serving because I think it was brilliant. But Novak hasn't broken well this whole tournament even when taking into consideration that this is grass.

I do think that your analysis of Federer's return is correct in many ways. As I said in the article Federer does tend to use his back-hand slice too often when he should run around it. BITF suggested he hits through his backhand- however I don't think this is a good idea. Against a spinning ball Federer would shank many backhands if he tried to hit through it- hence I think he should run around and hit a forehand.
However Socal I don't think you give Fed's blocking enough credit. He has very fast hand-eye co-ordination so can get many balls back into play (but not as many as Novak).

invisiblecoolers wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:Banb, IC did you read the paragraph on Federer's 2nd serve return?
Would you agree with my analysis than he should run around it?

I agree he is at times passive on 2nd serve, but he is the master he knows what to do , I at times marvel how good his brain reacts to situations, so I wont change his game nor advice him to change anything even if he is ready to listen to my advice.

Me neither. I may occasionally get annoyed without how (IMHO) Roger sees himself as some kind of King, but I love the unique way he plays Tennis. Glad he made the final. He and Andy are the best fast court players and have been since around 2008/9

We just don't get enough of these conditions - i.e. rather than 1 to 3 events we need let's say 5. Then we'll find out who is the best all round player right now

On hard courts Djokovic and on clay its Nadal. Grass could be a number of players..

I think you'll find Ivo Karlovic has the best serve ever.............

Best returners in the game are Djokovic and Murray. Djokovic's returning last year from Australia to RG was phenomenal; nearly every ball was landing at the feet of the server. I think that's helped by Djokovic being extremely flexible; he's made out of elastic bands and WD-40. Murray is helped by the fact he has ridiculously quick reflexes which allows him to get the ball back into play and get ready for another shot almost immediately.

I think Djokovic is the best returner of first serves as he can often get them back with interest, Murrays probably the best of second serves as he regularly hits winners off them.

monty junior wrote:I think Djokovic is the best returner of first serves as he can often get them back with interest, Murrays probably the best of second serves as he regularly hits winners off them.

I agree about Djokovic getting the first serve back with interest, but so does Murray.
However I think Murray has started to be more aggressive in the 2nd serve, but he doesn't hit winners of them as often as Djokovic.

I don't watch enough of Djokovic matches to say, but yesterday for example i think Murray was 2-1 on return winners. So not much in it really, i think Andy see's second serves returns better and especially on his backhand has a better technique for flat hard returns.

For Djokovic it is more of a fine balance.
In 2011 he was getting them right back on the line, while this year he has too often just drifted it long.
Both at their best I believe Djokovic's return is slightly better, but right now I believe Murray's return is better than Djokovic's.

Obviously, on the whole, Djokovic is the best returner.

Federer isn't that good at it, it's possibly the weakest part of his game, relative to his other stuff.

bogbrush wrote:Obviously, on the whole, Djokovic is the best returner.

Federer isn't that good at it, it's possibly the weakest part of his game, relative to his other stuff.

Interesting, do you think he is too passive.

Certainly his 'block' is good; did you watch the youtube link in the article vs Roddick?

Just generally it's not as good. Obviously it's still a good play and against someone he reads and can mess up he's brilliant.

If its that USO 140mph return then great, but it was a freak.

Edit: just checked, it was that one. Yeah, I loved that live - it was a tight match and a great time to push 140 mph back down your opponents throat.

bogbrush wrote:Just generally it's not as good. Obviously it's still a good play and against someone he reads and can mess up he's brilliant.

If its that USO 140mph return then great, but it was a freak.

Edit: just checked, it was that one. Yeah, I loved that live - it was a tight match and a great time to push 140 mph back down your opponents throat.

Indeed!

Sometimes I think against Federer it might be better to give him slower topspin serves rather than hitting big as Federer can use the pace of the ball so well.

socal1976 wrote:

At the risk again of antagonizing the legions of federer fans I have to agree. Roger's return is highly overrated he is good at getting the first serve back but he has never had a good topspin backhand return in terms of being aggressive with the shot. For me I disagree that Murray's return is better or more aggressive. However I think the gap between the two is not that much, although I think Novak is maybe a half notch better and the best returner in the game. In fact, Nadal principally beat him at wimbeldon by taking advantage of his weak backhand return and turning Roger's chipped returns into meatballs in wimby 08 and 07 frankly. How hard was it in those two matches for Roger to break Nadal who is not the second coming of Sampras.

This is your problem Socal, rather than addressing issue you start complaining.

No idea who the Federer fans you quoting on this thread

1]Banbro is a Murray fan
2]Me a Del Potro fan
3]IMBL I guess a Nadal fan
4]break - I don't think so a Fed fan in particular

So no idea whom you referring here , next nobody mentioned Fed has the best return, I only said Fed got the best defensive return, which without a doubt he has which is agreed by most Tennis legends, however Fed lags behind on attacking return which if added would be a great weapon in his arsenal, Djoko got the best attacking return at the moment but his defensive return is not anywhere close to Murray or Fed.

Socal you clearly confused and rattled by Djoko's failure, my advice is to relax and wait for Djoko to come back stronger

Most tennis legends, like who? IC, just a couple of days ago some fed fan on this site argued that Roger was among the top 4 returners in the world. I did a post on another thread about how watching Isner return made me miss watching Nadal, Djoko, and Murray return serve. And someone was like WHY DIDN'T YOU PUT FEDERER IN THE GROUP? Just two days ago. In fact I have had lengthy debates with many federer fans on this site on how they believe Roger is equal to the best returners in the game and I don't. So the world doesn't revolve around you, newsflash. I wasn't talking to you or any of the people you referenced.

socal1976 wrote:Most tennis legends, like who? IC,

Johnny Mac said is several times, he knows Tennis atleast 1000 times better than u

IC, you don't get it my critique of you has nothing to do with whether fed is or isn't the best in the world at getting the first serve back. He is great at that, I mentioned it in my own post. MY CRITIQUE OF YOUR LAST RIDICULOUS POST INVOLVED you claiming that no fed fans argue that Roger is among the best returners in the world. In order to show how completely WRONG AND SILLY YOUR POST WAS I pointed to the fact that a day or two ago on this very site I was criticized for not including fed in a list of 3 greatest returners in the game today!. Therefore you pulled this "I am rattled by Djokovic losses" and "no fed fan mentioned" fed as among the best returners in the world is wrong. The world doesn't revolve around you, in fact I have had very lengthy heated debates on this very site and someone just a day or two insisted that I include fed in a list of the best returners in the game (OVERRAL RETURNERS.)

IC judging by your obssessive behavior in argueing every little thing with me the last couple of days it seems you are the one who is rattled. Rattled by the fact that I rip out all your OBVIOUS AND FUNDAMENTAL logical errors from the pile of word vomit that has made up your posts the last couple of days and expose them for what they are.

Fed fans do argue fed is one of the best returners in the world overral and I have had heated arguments on that very subject. So your critique is mistaken and misplace, I wasn't talking to you but others that I have in the past broached the subject with. Fed very good returner not a great one, end of story.

Here is a hint that will allow even your logically challenged mind to follow when I am talking to you specifically and to the larger website community as a whole. IN THE FUTURE IF I MENTION YOU BY NAME IN A POST IT IS DIRECTED AT YOU SPECIFICALLY, IF I DON'T, IT PROBABLY ISN'T.

socal1976 wrote:IC, you don't get it my critique of you has nothing to do with whether fed is or isn't the best in the world at getting the first serve back. He is great at that, I mentioned it in my own post. MY CRITIQUE OF YOUR LAST RIDICULOUS POST INVOLVED you claiming that no fed fans argue that Roger is among the best returners in the world. In order to show how completely WRONG AND SILLY YOUR POST WAS I pointed to the fact that a day or two ago on this very site I was criticized for not including fed in a list of 3 greatest returners in the game today!. Therefore you pulled this "I am rattled by Djokovic losses" and "no fed fan mentioned" fed as among the best returners in the world is wrong. The world doesn't revolve around you, in fact I have had very lengthy heated debates on this very site and someone just a day or two insisted that I include fed in a list of the best returners in the game (OVERRAL RETURNERS.)

IC judging by your obssessive behavior in argueing every little thing with me the last couple of days it seems you are the one who is rattled. Rattled by the fact that I rip out all your OBVIOUS AND FUNDAMENTAL logical errors from the pile of word vomit that has made up your posts the last couple of days and expose them for what they are.

Fed fans do argue fed is one of the best returners in the world overral and I have had heated arguments on that very subject. So your critique is mistaken and misplace, I wasn't talking to you but others that I have in the past broached the subject with. Fed very good returner not a great one, end of story.

Here is a hint that will allow even your logically challenged mind to follow when I am talking to you specifically and to the larger website community as a whole. IN THE FUTURE IF I MENTION YOU BY NAME IN A POST IT IS DIRECTED AT YOU SPECIFICALLY, IF I DON'T, IT PROBABLY ISN'T.

It's just rant after rant these days.

Try the decaf, seriously.

Sorry, while I can see how Djokovic and Murray can be considered a lot better than Fed, I don't see how you're putting Nadal above Fed let alone anywhere close to the other 2. One of them stands on the baseline and returns properly and the other stands x metres back and just gets the ball in anywhere.

break_in_the_fifth wrote:Sorry, while I can see how Djokovic and Murray can be considered a lot better than Fed, I don't see how you're putting Nadal above Fed let alone anywhere close to the other 2. One of them stands on the baseline and returns properly and the other stands x metres back and just gets the ball in anywhere.

Nadal is breaking at 38 percent rate which is astonishing this year. He is a phenomenol returner of serve in my opinion the hardest guy to ace on tour. He stands further back and tries to take a bigger more spin creating swing with his return. It does not mean that his method of attacking the return is any worse than the other great returners. I would rate nadal 3rd overral because he isn't like you say as good in terms of being as aggressive on the return.

Disagree, it's just his defensive skills doing the work to get the breaks and not the returning itself.

break_in_the_fifth wrote:Disagree, it's just his defensive skills doing the work to get the breaks and not the returning itself.

Well B in the 5th if Nadal doesn't produce a good return on the first ball as good as he is at running down shots he would not be breaking anywhere near the number that he is. He is the best player at getting back to neutral and then he is so good at winning the point when he is back at a neutral position. On the ATP tour despite all the continual harping about slow conditions still the vast, vast, vast majority of points is won by the player who gets on top of the point in the first 1 or 2 strokes, either with the serve or return, or the first forehand. If nadal was not getting quality returns back he would fall behind in the points and he would have no chance regardless of how slow the conditions are claimed to be and how good he is defensively to break at such a rate. The players on the tour for the most part win 80-90 percent of the points once they get on top of it with the serve, return, or first forehand on average.

Roddick or Karlovic (or his lack of movement)?

IMBL... would you consider replacing that Roddick-Federer video with this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE5gpE3DeK0

socal1976 wrote:IC, you don't get it my critique of you has nothing to do with whether fed is or isn't the best in the world at getting the first serve back. He is great at that, I mentioned it in my own post. MY CRITIQUE OF YOUR LAST RIDICULOUS POST INVOLVED you claiming that no fed fans argue that Roger is among the best returners in the world. In order to show how completely WRONG AND SILLY YOUR POST WAS I pointed to the fact that a day or two ago on this very site I was criticized for not including fed in a list of 3 greatest returners in the game today!. Therefore you pulled this "I am rattled by Djokovic losses" and "no fed fan mentioned" fed as among the best returners in the world is wrong. The world doesn't revolve around you, in fact I have had very lengthy heated debates on this very site and someone just a day or two insisted that I include fed in a list of the best returners in the game (OVERRAL RETURNERS.)

IC judging by your obssessive behavior in argueing every little thing with me the last couple of days it seems you are the one who is rattled. Rattled by the fact that I rip out all your OBVIOUS AND FUNDAMENTAL logical errors from the pile of word vomit that has made up your posts the last couple of days and expose them for what they are.

Fed fans do argue fed is one of the best returners in the world overral and I have had heated arguments on that very subject. So your critique is mistaken and misplace, I wasn't talking to you but others that I have in the past broached the subject with. Fed very good returner not a great one, end of story.

Here is a hint that will allow even your logically challenged mind to follow when I am talking to you specifically and to the larger website community as a whole. IN THE FUTURE IF I MENTION YOU BY NAME IN A POST IT IS DIRECTED AT YOU SPECIFICALLY, IF I DON'T, IT PROBABLY ISN'T.

Socal no body in this thread claimed Fed's return has great, still you complain for it and claiming how wrong I am, like BB suggested you need some decaf.

IC there were some Federer fans earlier who were debating with Socal on this, that's what he was referring to (not anyone on this thread).

This question is easy as Nadal is obviously the best returner of serve. The stats of course prove this as he has won the highest percentage of return games. I am pretty sure his career percentage would be higher too.

So what is everyone else judging? Style points? Or maybe just a little bit of wishful thinking is affecting the judgement?

I think it has to be djokovic. Nadal has even said it a few times in interviews. He has said that the djokovic return is unbelievable and always lands so close to the baseline. I remember him saying it again in interview with McEnroe after Wimbledon final last year. Also at French open this year I think nadal had only dropped serve once the whole way to the final. Novak broke him 8 times I think in that match!

hawkeye wrote:This question is easy as Nadal is obviously the best returner of serve. The stats of course prove this as he has won the highest percentage of return games. I am pretty sure his career percentage would be higher too.

So what is everyone else judging? Style points? Or maybe just a little bit of wishful thinking is affecting the judgement?

Return games won doesn't actually tell you who the best returner is. If a player isnt that great a returner but is far superior to the opposition once a rally does start then they will still win a lot of return games. Given rafa, particularly on clay, is in that happy situation, his return game stats are going to look good. The reason he leads at present this year is the % of clay matches in his total where, of course, it is easier to return and he is impossible to out-rally. Despite that, Rafa has finished the last two years behind Murray and Djokovic even on that stat.

On hard courts, you have to go back to 2008 to find the last time Rafa wasn't at least 5% behind Murray on return games won. Given Rafa is a better player than Murray, that would tend to suggest his actual return must be significantly weaker.

Born Slippy wrote:

hawkeye wrote:This question is easy as Nadal is obviously the best returner of serve. The stats of course prove this as he has won the highest percentage of return games. I am pretty sure his career percentage would be higher too.

So what is everyone else judging? Style points? Or maybe just a little bit of wishful thinking is affecting the judgement?

Return games won doesn't actually tell you who the best returner is. If a player isnt that great a returner but is far superior to the opposition once a rally does start then they will still win a lot of return games. Given rafa, particularly on clay, is in that happy situation, his return game stats are going to look good. The reason he leads at present this year is the % of clay matches in his total where, of course, it is easier to return and he is impossible to out-rally. Despite that, Rafa has finished the last two years behind Murray and Djokovic even on that stat.

On hard courts, you have to go back to 2008 to find the last time Rafa wasn't at least 5% behind Murray on return games won. Given Rafa is a better player than Murray, that would tend to suggest his actual return must be significantly weaker.

Spot on.

Danny_1982 wrote:

Born Slippy wrote:

hawkeye wrote:This question is easy as Nadal is obviously the best returner of serve. The stats of course prove this as he has won the highest percentage of return games. I am pretty sure his career percentage would be higher too.

So what is everyone else judging? Style points? Or maybe just a little bit of wishful thinking is affecting the judgement?

Return games won doesn't actually tell you who the best returner is. If a player isnt that great a returner but is far superior to the opposition once a rally does start then they will still win a lot of return games. Given rafa, particularly on clay, is in that happy situation, his return game stats are going to look good. The reason he leads at present this year is the % of clay matches in his total where, of course, it is easier to return and he is impossible to out-rally. Despite that, Rafa has finished the last two years behind Murray and Djokovic even on that stat.

On hard courts, you have to go back to 2008 to find the last time Rafa wasn't at least 5% behind Murray on return games won. Given Rafa is a better player than Murray, that would tend to suggest his actual return must be significantly weaker.

Spot on.

Except for the part about Rafa being a better player than Murray

break_in_the_5th

You may want to vote in my new poll. Do you think that Murray with his shiny gold Olympic medal has now proved that he is a superior player to Nadal? I did imagine that if Murray won the Olympic medal it would almost explode with shininess. What I didn't realise is that it's shininess would block out everything else that shines. A bit like the sun. Poor Rafa with his dull Olympic medal and meaningless slams...

Well he was certainly better than Fed and was already a great player even without the medal. No need to feel sorry for Rafa he's had a very successful career and is missed by everyone. Though without trying to wum I really have no idea what is wrong with him this time.

hawkeye wrote:break_in_the_5th

You may want to vote in my new poll. Do you think that Murray with his shiny gold Olympic medal has now proved that he is a superior player to Nadal? I did imagine that if Murray won the Olympic medal it would almost explode with shininess. What I didn't realise is that it's shininess would block out everything else that shines. A bit like the sun. Poor Rafa with his dull Olympic medal and meaningless slams...

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Born Slippy wrote:

hawkeye wrote:This question is easy as Nadal is obviously the best returner of serve. The stats of course prove this as he has won the highest percentage of return games. I am pretty sure his career percentage would be higher too.

So what is everyone else judging? Style points? Or maybe just a little bit of wishful thinking is affecting the judgement?

Return games won doesn't actually tell you who the best returner is. If a player isnt that great a returner but is far superior to the opposition once a rally does start then they will still win a lot of return games. Given rafa, particularly on clay, is in that happy situation, his return game stats are going to look good. The reason he leads at present this year is the % of clay matches in his total where, of course, it is easier to return and he is impossible to out-rally. Despite that, Rafa has finished the last two years behind Murray and Djokovic even on that stat.

On hard courts, you have to go back to 2008 to find the last time Rafa wasn't at least 5% behind Murray on return games won. Given Rafa is a better player than Murray, that would tend to suggest his actual return must be significantly weaker.

Excellent point by Born slippy, lets remember that by the percentages Djoko lead the ATP tour in 2010 and 2011 over Nadal and Murray. Nadal plays more on clay than the other top players so his return numbers are slightly inflated. I mean how often was he breaking people this year during the clay court stretch it was ridiculous? At neutral all three guys are exceptional Djokovic, Nadal, and murray. But it could be argued that Nadal is a bit better of a player from neutral and from behind in the point than the other two. Where as the other two do more with that first ball and are better at hitting that first ball. Nadal excels so much in long rallies that he usually tries just to get back a deep spinning return and use his superior fitness, speed, and consistent heavy strokes once back to neutral in the return points.

hawkeye wrote:break_in_the_5th

You may want to vote in my new poll. Do you think that Murray with his shiny gold Olympic medal has now proved that he is a superior player to Nadal? I did imagine that if Murray won the Olympic medal it would almost explode with shininess. What I didn't realise is that it's shininess would block out everything else that shines. A bit like the sun. Poor Rafa with his dull Olympic medal and meaningless slams...

hawkeye, seriously why don't you move to Spain. You will find Nadal's medal is mighty shiny there just as Andy's is more shiny here because he represented Britain in their home Olympic Games.

Back to the OP's question. Who is the best returner of serve? Well for me the greater question is who has the most effective return of serve.

Nadal and Djokovic are very similar. They can get the majority of first serves back and one of the things they are so good at is being able to is return up the line serves to the BH into the middle of the court and still retain court position. Equally as well they can return 2nd serves with added sting and venom. These 2 require a far more accurate server. One of the main reasons Federer competes so well against these 2 is because he is far more accurate server.

Federer for me blocks and slices returns better than anyone in the game. Especially on the BH. The FH he will go after should any serve come in below 105mph. The effective thing with the slice return on serves is the fizz it takes out of the ball and immediately he is able to retain position and have a foothole in the rally.

Murray years ago had such a great return on the BH. This has slightly wained in the last few years. What he is good on is the BH DTL on 2nd serves. Keeps it low and hard. Also he utilises the FH slice so well on the 2nd serve and sometimes even on the 1st serve.

For me a this moment in time, Djokovic is the best returner on tour.

legendkillarV2 wrote:Back to the OP's question. Who is the best returner of serve? Well for me the greater question is who has the most effective return of serve.

Nadal and Djokovic are very similar. They can get the majority of first serves back and one of the things they are so good at is being able to is return up the line serves to the BH into the middle of the court and still retain court position. Equally as well they can return 2nd serves with added sting and venom. These 2 require a far more accurate server. One of the main reasons Federer competes so well against these 2 is because he is far more accurate server.

Federer for me blocks and slices returns better than anyone in the game. Especially on the BH. The FH he will go after should any serve come in below 105mph. The effective thing with the slice return on serves is the fizz it takes out of the ball and immediately he is able to retain position and have a foothole in the rally.

Murray years ago had such a great return on the BH. This has slightly wained in the last few years. What he is good on is the BH DTL on 2nd serves. Keeps it low and hard. Also he utilises the FH slice so well on the 2nd serve and sometimes even on the 1st serve.

For me a this moment in time, Djokovic is the best returner on tour.

I have to agree with this, good analysis LKv2.

hawkeye wrote:This question is easy as Nadal is obviously the best returner of serve. The stats of course prove this as he has won the highest percentage of return games. I am pretty sure his career percentage would be higher too.

HE, winning percentage of return games does not necessarily mean he is the best returner of serve.

I think Djokovic is the most aggressive returner, finding depth with regularity; but Nadal's return fits in with his game well which means he can win many return games- especially on clay.

It Must Be Love wrote:

hawkeye wrote:This question is easy as Nadal is obviously the best returner of serve. The stats of course prove this as he has won the highest percentage of return games. I am pretty sure his career percentage would be higher too.

HE, winning percentage of return games does not necessarily mean he is the best returner of serve.

I think Djokovic is the most aggressive returner, finding depth with regularity; but Nadal's return fits in with his game well which means he can win many return games- especially on clay.

That is true there is different ways to skin the cat. In my own game I usually try to flatten out the return and surprise the server by taking it earlier and keeping low and hard. But against certain players who serve really big I have learned the efficacy of the deep spinning return and taking a step back and taking a bigger swing on the return. It really drives a big server crazy to not get free points and have his power game blunted like that. But i think Nadal sometimes is too mechanical with his tactical variety and approach. And this lack of variety on the return is one example. The one minor critique I would have is when he finds a pattern or tactic that works well for him he beats that horse to the ground (ie cross court forehand v. one handers backhand or kick serve to backhand return) the return is another example of this. I think in today's game you have to both be able to blunt power and put the fear of god in the server on second serve by knowing you can hit winners on his return. But you are correct his return game suits his style of play perfectly. However the one kicker is that if you get to used to these patterns and all of sudden a guy comes along and exposes these patterns by having your attack feed into his strengths now all of sudden it creates doubt and an inability to adjust on the fly. I think that is what happened with Djoko last year the same patterns just didn't work.