A Jeff 14-team league?

The Top14 recommences this weekend thus restarting the daunting task of restarting a gruelling domestic/international season which goes on until possibly the European cup finals and whatever summer fixtures the French have agreed to.

Turning to the Jeff:
Professional Rugby is a potentially debilitating sport where injury and burn-out is an ever-present threat to all players - especially the elite players as the demands pile up on their services from clubs, nations and possibly the Lions.

Yet still there are some calls on this board to expand the Jeff to 14 teams. What kind of madness is this?

Best (to my mind) would be to reduce the Jeff and the Championship to ten teams each and pad the season with an English Cup to be played during the IWs and drop the pointless Low-Value tin pot with something targeted at providing Championship clubs with regular contests with the Jeff sides.

Sensible, it might be. But it is fanciful. It would probably never happen as the Jeff turkeys won't vote for Christmas.
But maybe they should. With only four clubs making profits last season, maybe some might be better off long-term with a spell in the Championship and a copy of the Exeter business plan.

Port - the key thing really is to drop the LV= and ideally re-adjust hte season so that the impact of hte AIs/6Ns are reduced. Then a 14 team competition would be feasible.

The other option is a 14 team comp, but play each other once (alternating venue each season SH style) and have a cup too. That would be less rugby though, so less money to be earnt.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Port - the key thing really is to drop the LV= and ideally re-adjust hte season so that the impact of hte AIs/6Ns are reduced. Then a 14 team competition would be feasible.

The other option is a 14 team comp, but play each other once (alternating venue each season SH style) and have a cup too. That would be less rugby though, so less money to be earnt.

Trouble with playing each team once a season, SS, is that final tables are prone to get skewed by the vagaries of the seasonal fluctuations. For instance a small competition like the 6Ns is affected by odd-even years. Which is a reason why I'd prefer to have a multi-divisional 4Ns.

As for the money, If there was a Jeff Prem and a Jeff 1 each containing ten sides, it may be possible to engage the media (particularly TV) to buy in. But that would be the first thing to do - sell the concept.
As for money, it is clear that most clubs lose money year after year. And that is not tenable long-term. The twelve-team set-up clearly is not exactly Paraidse Lost. However a more intense Jeff 1, like the footy Championship, could be a good league.

I ain't a fan of the one match a season thing, but was just trying to get a way around the number of matches etc.

I would agree that cutting the Jeff and Championship to 10 would be a feasible idea, the Jeff would theoretically be stronger as there would be more rest etc, and also there would be less filler in the league (as to be fair there are 6-7 good sides, and 5-6 filler sides at present). And likewise the Championship would be losing a handful of poor sides, and gaining a handful of better sides, so that should again must the over all quality up.

Just as long as they don't go down the conferance route, I really can't stand that nonesence.

Sadly the prem will go to 14 before it goes to 10. If you had a 2 div of 10 they would be down four games. The best sides would make that up in an FA cup style competion and also bring in extra games and could account for HC spots.

Also the better teams dropping down would probably cover the loss in attendance of the extra games for the second division

as to be fair there are 6-7 good sides, and 5-6 filler sides at present

I don't think there is that much filler in the league. Last season any team but the bottom 3 could have got a spot in the HEC, it was a hard fought thing. This season with the massive investment in the Wasps squad I'd imagine only Oxford Welsh and Worcester will be the filler games. Though credit to Worcester they are building their side up slowly and remain hard to beat at Sixways (which is a pretty nice set up).

I don't think we should be looking to limit the Championship further, the Championship Chairmen weren't that happy when the RFU insisted they cut the numbers in the league and bring in the play offs. They'd be even more annoyed at seeing more potential gate money disappear with the league going down to 10.

Brendan wrote:Sadly the prem will go to 14 before it goes to 10. If you had a 2 div of 10 they would be down four games. The best sides would make that up in an FA cup style competion and also bring in extra games and could account for HC spots.

Also the better teams dropping down would probably cover the loss in attendance of the extra games for the second division

I'm a bear of very little brain Brendan. But struggle as I did, I can't detect a point nor any logic in your post.

As an ex-maths teacher, red pen in hand: Show your workings. Or at least develop your reasoning.

Why not have an NFL like split of two pools of 6 or 7 or 8 teams playing each other and then the top 2-4 in both pools get in to the play offs (obviously the more play offs the more income so maybe less regular season games but more knock out rugby to compensate?)

Could we have our own version of the ERC drop down idea?

Maybe the bottom two teams in the league come April should drop in to the Championship for the playoffs to bring some more awareness to that comp, raise the skillsets and get more people watching.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

as to be fair there are 6-7 good sides, and 5-6 filler sides at present

I don't think there is that much filler in the league. Last season any team but the bottom 3 could have got a spot in the HEC, it was a hard fought thing. This season with the massive investment in the Wasps squad I'd imagine only Oxford Welsh and Worcester will be the filler games. Though credit to Worcester they are building their side up slowly and remain hard to beat at Sixways (which is a pretty nice set up).

I don't think we should be looking to limit the Championship further, the Championship Chairmen weren't that happy when the RFU insisted they cut the numbers in the league and bring in the play offs. They'd be even more annoyed at seeing more potential gate money disappear with the league going down to 10.

Agreed & I shall mention this once and only once more Wasps were beset by an unbelievable amount of injuries last season which would have tested any side in any league.
Generally the Jeff has one noticeably weaker side in it each year, but as Northampton & Quins will testify relegation don't make you a bad side forever.

Sam - Worcester, Wasps (at the moment), London Welsh, Bath (of last few season), and Sale/Glaws (maybe a bit harsh) are not exactly setting the world alight at the moment, and would anyone realisitcally expect to see any of them in the HEC the season after next?

Relegation is really far more of a test to the clubs infrastructore then the actual first XV

Aye, Wasps had a nightmare season last year both off and on the field. The upside is that now they have recruited well and have a core of young players with AP experience to back up these new signings.

Most teams fortunes fluctuate over time and some of them thrive from a brief stint after relegation. Gives the team a chance to clear out the dead wood and rebuild in a positive manner.

Worcester, Wasps (at the moment), London Welsh, Bath (of last few season), and Sale/Glaws (maybe a bit harsh) are not exactly setting the world alight at the moment, and would anyone realisitcally expect to see any of them in the HEC the season after next?

Well I did label Wuss and OW as filler, OW will go down after a season of beatings. Bath have a rich owner who will be expecting a challenge for the a HEC spot after splashing some cash on signings last season and no doubt still plotting one or two more before the season starts. Sale are in the HEC this season and have recruited well, they might not get very far but have a good core of young players that should mean they are there or there abouts come the end of the season. Glaws should have been in the playoffs last season but blew up spectacularly after their head coach announced he was leaving and senior players were told they weren't getting new contracts. Tigers and Sarries will be in the top 4, Wuss and OW will be in the bottom 2 (OW relegated) but everything in the middle is really hard to call.

Sam - yeah there area reasons for teams not performing (injuries, poor coaches, lack of cash etc), but the thing is some of those teams have not performed particularly well for a while. Being Serious when was the last time Bath or Wasps were realistically feared by their opposition? I am using those two as they are still seen as big teams, on rep and history?

About 2008/09?

Yappy - so a few seasons ago (p.s. I ain't having a dig, I support a filler/boaderline filler side too)

Bath were in the HEC Qtrs back in 2009, won the Amlin in 2008 and were in the AP playoffs in 2010. They have really only had one bad season and that was last year, even then they made a decent effort in the HEC despite having Leinster in their group.

Wasps won the HEC back in 2007 and the AP in 2008. They've had a torrid time in terms of finance and replacing that legendary squad but that happens to a lot of teams.

I would have called them both filler (or worse last season) but this coming season both are looking in pretty good shape. That view may be reassessed pretty quickly when the season starts (particularly for Bath) but right now they are looking pretty good.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Sam - yeah there area reasons for teams not performing (injuries, poor coaches, lack of cash etc), but the thing is some of those teams have not performed particularly well for a while. Being Serious when was the last time Bath or Wasps were realistically feared by their opposition? I am using those two as they are still seen as big teams, on rep and history?

I think it's healthy for any league to have different teams battling it out for the league championship & you see it in the Jeff as squads develop, players retiring etc.. The only constant really being Tigers who will always be there.
Teams like Sarries, Bath & Glaws have under performed for years looking at their potential financial clout.

Whereas Wasps (yes biased) have traditionally punched above their financial weight until recently. But that has been down to a mass of retiring players, injuries & off field distractions.

Attendances for the top ten teams that would have been in the prem if it went down to 10 teams

Tigers 22539
Quins 20010
Sarries 17843
LI 14340
Glaws 13594
Saints 13241
Bath 11806
Woss 10205
Exeter 8323
Sale 7900

Championship would be

Wasps 6745
Newcastle 5311

they would probably lose 30% but everyone wants to watch a winning team and not a lossing team getting beat everyweek so it might not change as much*

All of the teams that would stay in the championship would see an increase in attendance with these to coming in and lets be honest there isn't a massive jump need to replace the lower teams.

Bristol 5351
Bedford 2637
Leeds C 2315
Pirates 2225
Rotherham 1446
Doncaster 1392
Nottingham 1310
L Welsh 1270

*going off of Woss and Leeds attendance there seems to be about a 2k drop or gain when rel/prom

With all league games played outside IW you would also see a rise in attendances. Is that enough stats

Trev - yeah it is health for a league to have a change at the top over time, and it is good for fans to see their teams rise up the ranks (not so good to se them fall down), however that does not stop the arguement that there are a number of sides that are not going to be in the running for play-off spots (realistically) or HEC spots, and that maybe if the league was reduced by two teams, that it would be more competitive, and the Championship would recieve two higher quality sides, making it a more desirable competition for fans, TV, sponsors and players.

On the Lv it seems like the english would preffer if it was an open english cup rather then the top english and welsh teams.

What sort of attendances would there be for the RFU cup with stagger entry like the FA cup.

Would you get more attendances if say the finalist got HC and the semi lossers got Amlin places. That could be a nice carrot for the restructuring

[quote="ScarletSpiderman"Championship would recieve two higher quality sides, making it a more desirable competition for fans, TV, sponsors and players.[/quote]

I think that the two divisions could be sold as a package so the prem 1st and 2nd division. Also with Amlin places up for grabs more people would be interested. Also I think there is a demand in parts of england to see their teams play such as Bristol and cornwall but alot of teams.

Who covers the Championship at the moment. Count ITV or the BBc or both show games on the regional channels eg BBCsouth etc

Brendan wrote:Attendances for the top ten teams that would have been in the prem if it went down to 10 teams

Tigers 22539
Quins 20010
Sarries 17843
LI 14340
Glaws 13594
Saints 13241
Bath 11806
Woss 10205
Exeter 8323
Sale 7900

Championship would be

Wasps 6745
Newcastle 5311

they would probably lose 30% but everyone wants to watch a winning team and not a lossing team getting beat everyweek so it might not change as much*

All of the teams that would stay in the championship would see an increase in attendance with these to coming in and lets be honest there isn't a massive jump need to replace the lower teams.

Bristol 5351
Bedford 2637
Leeds C 2315
Pirates 2225
Rotherham 1446
Doncaster 1392
Nottingham 1310
L Welsh 1270

*going off of Woss and Leeds attendance there seems to be about a 2k drop or gain when rel/prom

With all league games played outside IW you would also see a rise in attendances. Is that enough stats

It does bother me when stats are posted without a source. Any relevant can then be explored at source.

Aviva website and the rugbynetwork.net

As stated there is about 2k difference in attendance when a team goes up or down.

the four teams that would loose out would get about 1200 average(plus and minus for the teams).

An RFU cup that was done on region eg. you would have the london cup, the midlands cup, the west cup and the north cup, ( I am sure ye can come up with better regions) could be played with the winners playing for the RFU cup. This would boost attendances as more local game and to be the best in the region.

Would you like to tell be why the stats don't or can't add up.

Portney my stats are helping your cause not hindering it. I would also like to see the rabo go to two divisions of ten but we are to many teams short.

How would you plan to provide the figures/money for the ten team leagues as you have given no stats on how the teams would avoid folding

Brendan wrote:Aviva website and the rugbynetwork.net

As stated there is about 2k difference in attendance when a team goes up or down.

the four teams that would loose out would get about 1200 average(plus and minus for the teams).

An RFU cup that was done on region eg. you would have the london cup, the midlands cup, the west cup and the north cup, ( I am sure ye can come up with better regions) could be played with the winners playing for the RFU cup. This would boost attendances as more local game and to be the best in the region.

Would you like to tell be why the stats don't or can't add up.

Portney my stats are helping your cause not hindering it. I would also like to see the rabo go to two divisions of ten but we are to many teams short.

How would you plan to provide the figures/money for the ten team leagues as you have given no stats on how the teams would avoid folding

It wasn't a cricism Brendan. Just a query as some posters put up faux figures to make a false point backed up by invented stats.

But it does help in my contention that a Jeff 1 would not be a total calamity for anyone in the top two tiers (save the four clubs consigned to ND1 and downwards in the affiliated leagues).

If you also have two good divisions it will help with developing players. At present players go to the championship but more would go if it was a higher standard.

The problems to this is the all the PRL teams would have to vote for it. The RFU can do what they want but I think that the carrot of having a chance at the amlin would help the Championship teams.

Also the drop not being so bad and still having Amlin the first year of relegation might help them vote for it.

It is all about showing the teams the benefit of the 10 teams to the bottom line.

It is all about showing the teams the benefit of the 10 teams to the bottom line.

Considering that there will be less games for both tiers coupled with no guarentee of extra tv revenue or sponsorship and a fairly low value cup between English teams in place of the equally low value LV Cup I don't think many will vote for it. Certainly the likes of LW who took the RFU to court over their promotion would more than likely follow suit as would Worcester etc.

In theory it's a great idea as players get more rest periods and there is no games during internationals. The money isn't there to support it. It's all based on the hope that Sky or the Beeb or ITV or ESPN will cough up lots more cash to view the second tier. If the RFU really valued the plan they could offer financial incentives but the Championship clubs are already suing them over money they are refusing to hand over. The Championship clubs will not trust them again.

I think most agree that all the Lv does is use up weekends in the calander.

Like I said I my first post I think that it will go to 14 teams before it would got to 10. Even droping to eleven might help as it would give teams at least two weeks off over the year and not affect the attendances to much.

Also if they had regional cup the PRL might see it as the back door to regionalizing English rugby

Also if they had regional cup the PRL might see it as the back door to regionalizing English rugby

They have more chance of getting the Republic of Ireland to join team GB at the next Olympics than they have of Regionalising top flight English professional rugby.

Less games would result in fresher players. But if you're going to just replace the two lost league games with two new cup games, then I don't really see the point.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Also if they had regional cup the PRL might see it as the back door to regionalizing English rugby

They have more chance of getting the Republic of Ireland to join team GB at the next Olympics than they have of Regionalising top flight English professional rugby.

At the moment it is only the English and French that are not regionaliised/superclubs/provinces (NZ, SA, Aus, Ire, Wal, Sco, Ita have all done it.) So I think it could be a matter of how long can they resisit the change?

The English and French are the only clubs games and maybe SA that can support professional rugby so that is why they haven't regionalized.

I don't expect them to regionalize and to be honest they don't need to. But if the RFU set up a regional Cup our underage regions I think that the PRL would see it as a thin end of the wedge.

The point of the 10 team league was so strenght the championship and also remove easy games in the prem as far as I understood it.

The extra games would be replacing the LV so no extra games but better attended as far as I understood

At the moment it is only the English and French that are not regionaliised/superclubs/provinces (NZ, SA, Aus, Ire, Wal, Sco, Ita have all done it.) So I think it could be a matter of how long can they resisit the change?

The English and French top tier clubs have long since passed the point of potential regionalisation (thankfully), the RFU does offer the clubs enough financial support to be able to control them. That is where the IRFU and the WRU gain their power over the provinces/regions and the clubs. The RFU don't have that. Any attempt to force the clubs into regions would meet with political failure and Premier League Rugby tearing up the EPS and moving the AP Final away from Twickers. That would be two sell out games (1 AI and the AP final) taken away from the RFU and a loss of over £5m in turnover (based on the estimate of 80k stadium and average price of ticket is £30 = £2.4m, that's not including refreshments, programmes etc).

It would all turn nasty very quickly and having spent years trying to cement the ceasefire agreement (the EPS) the RFU will not be looking to upset the clubs. If you don't believe me then check out the RFU's stance on the proposed reforms to the HEC, the silence on their part says an awful lot.

Sam - ONly four (i believe thats what I was told) JEff sides made a profit last season, so I am sure if there were to be talk of shake ups etc, that financial backing could be pulled away and the majority of Jeff sides would go the way of Richmond and Orrell (sp). I don't think it will happen, but it is always a possiblity.

SS and Brendan,

Wales have suffered enough with regionalisation haven't they? Crowd attendances only seem to rise significantly for major HEC fixtures whilst Rabo home games are fairly rubbish seeing as how relatively close the seat of Welsh regional clubs are.

Brendan,

The point of the 10 team league was so strenght the championship and also remove easy games in the prem as far as I understood it.

My point was to reduce rather than increase the burden on players (particularly elite players) to extreme exposure to injury and burn-out.

The extra games would be replacing the LV so no extra games but better attended as far as I understood

That tied with a more competitive Jeff 1 which I believe could get a proper TV contract (more than the cursory Sky offering which is pretty much a pick'n'mix, bland nothingness.

Port - not saying it would go down that route as such, especially if the RFU went down the route of removing funding from some and giving it to others if they thought it would improve their own money making chances (and would Leiceter really worry about stabbing Northampton in the back etc), and these things can always be fitted in between contract renuals etc (look at the HEC being thown up in the air). Regionalism has made a huge impact on welsh rugby internationally, the regions are getting better gates than prem clubs pre regionalisation (Scarlets averaged 9k last season, llanelli RFC would have been lucky to average 5k pre-regional). Anyway yeah sorry for side tracking a bit.

Sam - ONly four (i believe thats what I was told) JEff sides made a profit last season, so I am sure if there were to be talk of shake ups etc, that financial backing could be pulled away and the majority of Jeff sides would go the way of Richmond and Orrell (sp). I don't think it will happen, but it is always a possiblity.

Chances are that they'd go under if they were forced into the ghost existance as a Region's feeder club though. No HEC money, much reduced tv revenue and spsonorship but all the other runnings costs with the exception of some wages which will be taken on by the Region.

Also how would you re-order the clubs. Simply telling for instance Northampton, Tigers and Nottingham to band together would generate only a two fingered response and that is without the political mind field of trying to generate an organisation to oversee those extremally proud clubs.

Regionalism has made a huge impact on welsh rugby internationally, the regions are getting better gates than prem clubs pre regionalisation (Scarlets averaged 9k last season, llanelli RFC would have been lucky to average 5k pre-regional).

Some 10 years down the line and with mass WRU funding the regions are starting to look more healthy. Tigers and Saints had average attendance figures of double the Scarlets. Where would they find a stadium to cope and where would they play their games? Leicester and Northampton are close enough to be rivals but travelling between the two every other week is not that easy or that great, one set of fans will be peed. That's just one would be region, now imagine that extrapalated to the rest of the clubs, they'd be an equal up roar in the West Country for starters.

Portnoy wrote:

The extra games would be replacing the LV so no extra games but better attended as far as I understood

That tied with a more competitive Jeff 1 which I believe could get a proper TV contract (more than the cursory Sky offering which is pretty much a pick'n'mix, bland nothingness.

Sky broadcast rather low football leagues don't they? Why not rugby it would not hurt, especially if the standard was improved. But maybe a free to air deal would work better building up some support from not tradition rugby fans and then jump to sky.

sam - different arguement for different thread, and your right big mine-field, but mine-fields can be crossed if care is take (even if nobody wants to do it, until they need to).

SS,

Unfortunately tracking crowds twixt pre-regionalism and now is fraught with all sorts of unimaginable variables which can't be ignored. Not least the state of rugby in the Principality at the time.

At the time a proper Anglo-Welsh league was on the cards. Had that idea hatched, would Cardiff, Swansea and (say) Newport audiences not now be in the 15-20000 range? Who knows?
The past is a different country.

How did we get on to regionalizing.

The 10 team league I think would help make the prem a better product also.

Most people accept that Welsh and Woss are going to be the bottom two but 10-5 is anyone's guess.

England and France will never go region as they don't need the money from the unions. there is no harm in having the PRL and RFU both strong to keep each other on their toes.

I think us in Ireland are kind of at the mercey of IRFU as the clubs and regions have no power. Balance is always needed.

An E14 is idelaistic but we dont have the market here for it. What youd have is a disapirty between top and bottom, and the second tier no longer viable as fully professional. Far from being inclusive it would be damaging to smaller clubs.
I side with Pornoy on this one, a reduced Premiership faces reality, two teirs of ten is viable competitive and reduces the burden on the calander

Unfortunately, I can't see reducing the number of teams in the Premiership. Teams need revenue and the gate is still the primary source of revenue.

I do agree the LV= Cup can go the way of the Dodo.

doctor_grey wrote:Unfortunately, I can't see reducing the number of teams in the Premiership. Teams need revenue and the gate is still the primary source of revenue.

I do agree the LV= Cup can go the way of the Dodo.

Depends how the sums work out though. The T14 want to expand further because they make a stink load of cash from every game played, and all clubs bring big crowds and big TV.

Is that the case in England?
Yes less games means less receipts, it also means a slightly lower TV deal although its cheaper to produce) but then thats split less ways. So is the EPS cash, as is the sponsorship money etc. The games that are cut by booting out the two bottom feeders are likely to be amongst the lower revenue generating ones (especially if reduction is done by franchise) Theres a lot of calculations to be made, but its dangerous to keep soldiering on with the majority of the league in debt and running at a loss. I certainly dont see how bringing up more clubs would help the situation, one of the Jeffs strengths is its competitiveness and the relatively small gap between top and bottom most seasons. Having two tiers within one division makes leagues seem a bit tiresome

Lets' be honest though the Welsh regions (except for the Ospreys) aren't regions at all, they are super clubs, or at least that's what they were when they were first created.

Now at least the Scarlets and Newport are starting to act like it. Cardiff will never be a region, but in all honesty should they be?