Ask not what you can do for your country.....

but what your country can do to help the Australians.....

Right, it’s time to return the favour.

For 17 years, NZ have been allowed to have a team based in Auckland participate in the NRL. The Breakers operate in the Australian Basketball League and are currently top dog. We’ve got the Wellington Phoenix in the A League and a trans-tasman Netball league. All of this has benefitted NZ sport, or at least the sports involved, for the better.

Australian rugby is in a mess. They lack enough depth in their 5 Super teams and their conference is outright the weakest in the competition with the Force and Rebels amongst the worst teams in the comp. They rely heavily on imports from NZ who admittedly aren’t good enough to make it to the top in NZ.

Having played in the Brisbane comp, I can first hand say there is talent there but the problem is that they cannot bridge the gap between club and Super 15. What is the solution?

The NZRFU now needs to allow two teams into NZ’s ITM Cup. One based in Brisbane and one based in Sydney. This will expose more players to a different level of rugby, which is a step up from Clbu Rugby and a step below Super rugby. It is a pathway for development and will help Australia to become stronger in the long run. I’m all for continued domination of the convicts, but I like it when they at least put up a fight. Playing NZ teams week in week out will improve their players, hopefully bring on their scrummaging skills (non existant at the moment) and crucially, create more depth and competition. Conversly, it will add a bit of spice to the ITM Cup. They can start off in the championship and if they are good enough, they will rise to the Premier division soon enough.

Right now, I think NZ needs to do it’s bit for little brother (rugby-speaking)

Without messing too much with structure put an u21 competition in place same as the super XV, Oz loses a lot of young talent becasue they go to RL.

SA and NZ already has an u21 compeition in place and that is where our young talent come from.

If we think hard enough on how to make t as cost effective as possible, it will bring in another 5 squads to OZ with development for senior sides.

Massive costs there Biltong I think but I also think this could have a very real impact on certainly the NPC as a lot of our young players will feed directly in. I am sure this would happen in the Currie Cup too?

Mintie

You forgot about the Vulcans playing in the NSW Cup and the under 20s in the Toyota cup.

But we dont hear anywhere near as much these days about what the Australian Institute of Sport down in Canberra is doing for rugby, is it still going?

Laurie - good points.....sort of included under the Warriors anyhow!

I'm sure the AIS has had reduced funding for a while now hence Australia's perceived failures at these last Olympics. Not sure if they do anything really for Australian rugby?

Mintie, I was discussing our situation with a few guys the other day after the Kings fiasco has now been cleared.

Currently our Currie cup is suffering anyway.

So why not change the system to this.

Have the five Super rugby franchises play Super rugby only, in other words, instead of having a Bulls Franchise for Super rugby and a BLue Bulls Provincial team for Currie Cup and Vodacom cup, just have one.

Blue Bulls frnachise, after all it is the same group of players, but by having them also play vodacom cup, they are taking away talent that can spread to other provinces.

So, have 5 Super rugby Franchises, Bulls (Pretoria, Guateng.), Stormers (Capetown, Western Cape), Cheetahs (Bloemfontein, Central Region), Sharks (Durban Natal) and Kings (PE, Eastern Cape).

Then have the nine Provinces who don't form part of Super rugby to be the next tier, in other words instead of a Premier and 1st Division, let them play these nine teams as the Premier division. Ensure financial equality between these teams with salary caps in place and ensure the financial sustainability of the nine remianing Currie Cup Provinces.

Remove the Vodacom Cup as a whole and replace it with 30-40 Super amateur clubs, fund these clubs, lets say 3-4 per Province and Super Franchise which would give you 56 Strong amateur clubs.

By doing this you ensure that a Super rugby player will only play Super rugby which is a maximum of 19 matches in current format plus tests.

The Currie Cup with nine teams will be a maximum of 20 matches, and that is it.

Then looking at the 5 Super Rugby franchises, they will have their U21 teams who can then easily become part of an age group super XV, and the other nine provinces will still have their currie Cup compeition.


It is not like SA has the situation they had 15 years ago where Provinces qualify for super rugby, it is a fixed 5 Franchises.

It just makes more sense to me with better development structures. Currently we are wasting the Currie Cup 1st division as a development tool.

Biltong, I understand what you're saying here but if you were to transplant this structure into NZ, the game would die within 5 yrs.

NZ's structure is very much a true pyramid. you play club rugby, then you get picked for your province, those good enough go on to Super Rugby and then up to the All Blacks. The NPC teams rely on Super players as well as the up and coming under 21's. If you take those playes out of the equation you will be left, certainly in NZ's case, with a bunch of no-hopers who aren't good enough to get a contract in Super Rugby or overseas. Take out the excitement of the up and comers and the known qualities of the Super players and you don't have a product which will be attractive at all to anyone....and soon enough the competition will die.

The NPc is crucial to Nz's producation line of talent. It's been tinkered with far too much now and it needs to be left alone for a good long time!

It could well work in SA but I agree with mintie that it won't work in NZ. Already the top players for the Super franchises are largely removed from the ITM. But excluding all the Super players will leave too big a hole for the upcoming younger players. They need that experience alongside them to bring the best out of them.

We've already given 10 years of automatic hosting for one of the Bledisloe tests to Sydney. The way you heard the crowd and the music played you'd be forgiven for thinking it wasn't an away test for the ABs.

Kia - you don't think that we should allow two aussie teams then? I think we need to be helping them to get better. The stronger our opposition is the stronger we need to be!

How often do the Super Rugby players actually play in the ITM Cup?

I can tell you in SA, the Inetrnational players only rock up for the semi finals and finals, and even then coaches sometimes prefer to pick the players that got them there in the first instance.

Consider the fact that our Currie Cup is almost a mirror image of the Super rugy conference, in that the rest of the teams play in the 1st division anyway and do not get exposed to the other teams.

Effectively you are aking only the Lions out of the equation, and we all know how poor they have been in Super rugby.

But what will effectively help SA rugby is the fact that you reduce the number of games for the players which can only be a good thing.

But you're talking about excluding all the Super players, not all of whom are internationals Biltong. Say 20 internationals out of 100 players is not that much of a big hole but 100 players seriously is!

I think two Aussie teams would be a good idea. But the ARFU need to take a big look at themselves and see what's happening or changed under the Super system. The answer is squat. They seemed to be relying on the Super franchises to give them depth and though a few years back there was talk at how much talent they had at their disposal, the cruel reality is there's a big drop in standard when the top players get taken out of the team through injury. A couple of teams will help but that's still not going to solve the bigger problem. There needs to be a domestic competition of Australia's to stop league from taking away vital age group players from union.

Yes, but not in the case of SA, think about it, 8 of our currie Cup teams aren't playing against Super rugby players anyway. They never ever play against them.

But duplicating the Currie Cup Premeir division with the same teams as the Conference in Super rugby only creates more games, more injuries and more fatigue.

Look at our backrow, our back up, back ups, are now injured.

Keegan Daniel may have had a good super rugby season, but he is way down on the list of possible selection if the other aren't injured.

Look at hooker, we have Craig Burden the back up to Bismarck, Chiliboy (why he is there noone knows), Adriaan Strauss and Tiaan Liebenberg.

Yeah like I said it can work in SA. But we don't have enough players to do that in NZ. Our feeder system as it stands works for us but as mintie mentioned we can't mess around too much with the ITM. It's an important breeding ground for talent for the Super franchises and then to test rugby. Try to separate the different breeding ponds and you'll only have a few king sized salmon and then a lot of tiddlers worth only for throwing back and hoping they grow in size. Cross pollenation is what's required. I'm rarely mixing my metaphors here but I hope you get the point!

Yeah, I understand what yu are saying, the thing is from what Iunderstand is that NZ has a draft system for their franchises?

How many different ITM teams are represented in the Franchise teams?

In SA we don't have cross pollination, when you look at the other 8 teams, I can think of maybe a handful of players that aren't from the Super Rugby frnachises, and even then, once a player has been spotted he invariably moves to the super Franchise's Province.

I think it's very flexible. You not only have at least three clubs but you can also have wild card players coming in like Gear or Hore for the Highlanders who have nothing to do with that provincial territory. The Crusaders in particular have exploited this flexibility drafting in anyone who looks useful.

That's what I've said to you before Bilitong. The Super teams in NZ draw on all the top teams in NZ. They are true regional teams. The Hurricanes are not Wellington but Wellington, Taranaki, Manawatu and Hawkes Bay each of which is a tier 1 or 2 team.
The rules were changed recently too to encourage players to stay in their province rather than move to the Super Francise capital though it still happens.
I think aussies main problem is they tried to grow rugby from the top rather than from the bottom.

You know mintie - its not that bad an idea. The only problem would be the added cost of travel. These teams don't have much money.

nganboy wrote:You know mintie - its not that bad an idea. The only problem would be the added cost of travel. These teams don't have much money.

There's a way around that nganboy. ITM is a NZ company, by including 2 Australian teams you open yourself up to transtasman sponsors and bigger income streams off the back of it. These can be used to reduce the cost of travel.

Just out of curiosity just how much bigger in Oz is Rugby League and Aussie Rules Footie (i know this is predominantly Victoria based...but franchises are growing all over Oz - and its a great sport)

Also football is starting to get a popular backing over there aswell...and is growing quite fast.

RL and AFL dominate massively geordie. Rugby Union isn't quite a minor sport but it is far less supported.

I would say football is on the wane, this is only my opinion but the A-League looks set to struggle with clubs going bankrupt and being bailed out etc. They can't quite lure big name players and there aren't big crowds attending these games.

The Reds success last year saw them for the first time have an average crowd bigger than the Broncos which is unheard of, they needed to consolidate this but I think they failed. Key to the success of Union in Australia is the success of NSW, the biggest fanbase in Australia. however, they are a basketcase

nganboy wrote:That's what I've said to you before Bilitong. The Super teams in NZ draw on all the top teams in NZ. They are true regional teams. The Hurricanes are not Wellington but Wellington, Taranaki, Manawatu and Hawkes Bay each of which is a tier 1 or 2 team.
The rules were changed recently too to encourage players to stay in their province rather than move to the Super Francise capital though it still happens.
I think aussies main problem is they tried to grow rugby from the top rather than from the bottom.

You know mintie - its not that bad an idea. The only problem would be the added cost of travel. These teams don't have much money.

Yes ours is supposed to work like this, but like I explained to Kia, once they have been playing Super rugby, they inevitably leave their Province ad don't come back.

So our 1st division currie Cup teams really only act as a feeder with no benefit of seeing those players again.
In an ideal world the players representing one of the 1st division teams should retain their players, but the reality is they don't.

I thought so.

I spent a year in oz around 2004, and went to a number of AFL games...one of my Aunties insisted i support the Freemantle Dockers as the rest of the family are West Coast Eagles..
I loved the games.

Im not a fan of RL mind..and probably never will be. I respect their physical levels of fitness and strength...and i do think their skill levels are huge...but i just find the game one dimensional...and not a great spectator sport. Obviously just my opinon.

Is there a danger that in years to come that the Aussies could lose their place as one of the leading international forces....

Biltong wrote:

nganboy wrote:That's what I've said to you before Bilitong. The Super teams in NZ draw on all the top teams in NZ. They are true regional teams. The Hurricanes are not Wellington but Wellington, Taranaki, Manawatu and Hawkes Bay each of which is a tier 1 or 2 team.
The rules were changed recently too to encourage players to stay in their province rather than move to the Super Francise capital though it still happens.
I think aussies main problem is they tried to grow rugby from the top rather than from the bottom.

You know mintie - its not that bad an idea. The only problem would be the added cost of travel. These teams don't have much money.

Yes ours is supposed to work like this, but like I explained to Kia, once they have been playing Super rugby, they inevitably leave their Province ad don't come back.

So our 1st division currie Cup teams really only act as a feeder with no benefit of seeing those players again.

In an ideal world the players representing one of the 1st division teams should retain their players, but the reality is they don't.

Biltong, this used to happen. Players within a franchise would gravitate towards the big partner in the region. This was because if your province got relegate to the 2nd division, you could miss out on a contract. Cullen moved from Manawatu (and Cnetral Vikings) to Wellington in 97 because they were stuck in the 2nd division. It was very rare (and still is) for any bolters to come out of the 2nd div straight to the AB's. Nowadays, because of the central contracting, players don't have to stay aligned with a Super team because their NPC team is part of that region. Look at Cruden. Plays for Manawatu but is contracted to the Chiefs. He came through to the Hurricanes because Manawatu is in the region so the Canes had first dibs on him.....not any longer (but thats ok we have Barrett now!)

That's true chewed so which itm is cruden plying this year, if any? He and aaron smith played manawatu under rennie last year. Have all three now left? Havnt kept up to date with the itm.

Id love to see two oz sides in the itm. I find it a bit bland with he ABs out of it. Its the absence of players that generally determine the winners more

A couple of years ago was`nt it the ITM was divided in to 2 divisions mid season simply by saying top 8 ,premier division second 7 or 8 a lesser division.NZ from the 3-5 year olds up depends on its grass roots,the ITM and sevens squad.Perform a useful function rehabilitating injured players and getting them fit for Super/test sides.Strong grassroots means a strong test side a pity some of the NH sides have forgotten it.

I appreciate the sentiment Chewed-Mintie, but I believe we need to sort out our own situation.

My preferred would be to simply start playing second XV games prior to the S15 derbies. That would provide 20 higher standard games per year for the squad players, plus the better uncontracted and academy players around the country. It could provide an additional step for coaches and referees as well. It’s not a particularly ambitious start, but it would be a start. Grander schemes can come later.

More important, for the longer term we need to change the perception of rugby as just an upper class sport, make it a viable option for kids to play, and find space within the community.

Australian rugby will never compete with the AFL/NRL, but it isn’t hopeless. There are roughly 1m registered players tied up in those two which leads to a point with only 1320 fully-pro contracts (33 clubs of 40 senior players). That’s a lot of unused resource and rugby needs to figure out how to tap into it.

There’s a country town in NSW that has had success is producing kids that have gone on to really high levels in lots of sports. As a town they will play anything, but never had the option of junior rugby unless you went away to boarding school. Two years ago someone recognised it’s tough getting kids away from league and rules on Saturday / Sunday, so they started junior rugby on Friday night and now 120 kids are playing. It was a small change in thinking that has had a good result, and the same thing would work in plenty of other country towns. Rugby is a good game, so can work here. It just needs to work out how.

Biltong wrote:How often do the Super Rugby players actually play in the ITM Cup?

Well this week Auckland will field a team with 14 Super Players. Not all of them very good ones to be honest but still all have had a game or two at that level.

For Wellington the squad is
Hookers: Dane Coles, Motu Matu'u
Props: Reggie Goodes, Solomona Sakalia, Arden David-Perrot, Jeffery Toomaga-Allen, Whetu Henry
Locks: Jeremy Thrush, Mark Reddish, Ross Filipo, Lua Lokotui
Loose forwards: Scott Fuglistaller, Serge Lilo, Ardie Savea, Genesis Mamea
Halfbacks: Frae Wilson, Kayne Hammington
First five-eighths: Tim Bateman
Midfield: Shaun Treeby, Ope Peleseuma, Alapati Leiua, Charlie Ngatai
Outside backs: Matt Proctor, Jason Woodward.
Also included, but injured: TJ Perenara, Brad Shields, Lima Sopoaga
All Blacks named in squad: Hosea Gear, Cory Jane, Ma'a Nonu, Julian Savea, Conrad Smith, Victor Vito

Bold is Super Players plus of course the ABs who probably wont get many games though I could see Vito, Gear and Savea getting a few runs to get some match fitness

nganboy, is Serge Lilo not a Super XV player? That would surprise!

Boomeranga....I know it would be ideal for the ARU to sort out the domestic game but they tried that and failed with the ARC. Admittedly it wasn't a good idea but then again, your idea would effectively kill off club rugby in Brisbane and Sydney ie the two main providers of players to the 5 franchises as all of the semi decent club players would be sucked into the B comp that you propose.

There's nothing wrong with having club rugby running parallel to Super Rugby but when they both end you need your non intl players doing something. Australia does not have the market for a State championship so the next best thing must be piling the best available players into two teams for the NZ NPC.

It is bridging the gap between club and super rugby that counts.

Ngan boy to be pedantic not only has Ross Filipo played Super rugby he is a capped All Black with 4 tests circa 2006 including one against TheBoks.

Taylorman wrote:That's true chewed so which itm is cruden plying this year, if any? He and aaron smith played manawatu under rennie last year. Have all three now left? Havnt kept up to date with the itm.

Id love to see two oz sides in the itm. I find it a bit bland with he ABs out of it. Its the absence of players that generally determine the winners more

they're still with Manawatu Taylorman, thought they won't play unless they need game time