Bare Knuckle Classics - Heenan vs Sayers.

Since we often bemoan judges decisions on here I thought I would revisit an era when judges were solely found in courts and when gloves were used to keep a woman’s hands warm and nothing else and provide a thread on a classic fight from the bare knuckle era, in what may become a series, the articles of which are likely to appear even less frequently than those in the colour line greats series.

However on the off chance this does become a series I can think of no better place to start than with the 1860 battle between Englishman Tom Sayers and the American John Heenan. This fight was not the first time an American and Brit had locked horns, many years prior to this Tom Cribb and former black slave Tom Molyneux had fought two famous battles. However in the days of Molyneux prize fighting in America was little established and there were few if any formal arrangements to it so whilst Molyneux was undoubtedly a fine fighter he had little claim to be the best in the nation. This had changed by the days of Heenan and although he lost in unfortunate circumstances to John Morrissey when Morrissey announced his retirement Heenan was widely accepted as the best fighter in the states, and as the man who had beaten William Perry and Tom Paddock Sayers was absolutely considered the champion in England, which in prize fighting terms meant a guy had a pretty decent claim to be world champion.

The fight was instigated by a challenge from Heenan from the states, as Sayers was short of challengers in the UK and with his backers quick to realise the potential marketability of the match up the fight was relatively quickly agreed, or as quickly agreed as the primitive lines of communications across the ocean allowed. However if the fight was quickly agreed it was not going to be made easily, prize fighting was illegal at the time and participants and attendees ran the risk of being arrested for a breach of the peace. However to get round this the man tasked with finding a suitable venue came up with a masterstroke, picking as he did the town of Aldershot, which was little more than an army town at the time, but significantly had a train station. However where this was brilliant is the bulk of major towns with significant police forces close to the venue were over the border in Surrey and so had no jurisdiction to act to stop the fight and it was hoped the fight would be done and dusted by the time the forces from local towns in Hampshire would have had time to organise sufficient manpower to act.

There are a number of differing reports about how many people attended the fight and obviously in 1860 accurate attendance records were not kept but to give some impression of the popularity and excitement generated the train company serving the fight laid on 63 coaches, all of which were packed to the rafters, add into that a good number had made their own way on horseback or carriage to the fight and it seems reasonable to think the attendance would have run to the 10’s of thousands, perhaps even more remarkable was this number was composed of a good number of Americans who had made the long journey to cheer on Heenan.

When the fight started the first thing which became immediately apparent was the size difference between the two with Heenan towering over Sayers and the early running of the fight very much suggested this difference would tell with Heenan having very much the better of the early showing. However one does not have the career Sayers had had until that point without knowing a thing or two and after seven rounds Tom was beginning to work the much bigger man out and started to land with regularity on Heenan’s eye. However what was an issue for Tom was his arm had become injured in the mauling he had suffered early in the fight and even at an early stage was beginning to swell and as the fight wore on was to become useless as an offensive tool, reduced to being utilised as a swollen shield to block the American’s blows.

However despite only having one decent arm Sayers began to have success and after working on Heenan’s eye he had fast reduced his eye to little more than a bloody pulp. Between the 10th and 20th round it became a gritty additional slog with both guys slow to make scratch and whilst Sayers was frequently down under the blows and throws of his heavier foe he continued to find the working eye of Heenan until the inevitable happened and he closed that one as well rendering Heenan nigh on blind.

It was at this point the brutal scrap took on the spectre of farce. The police had finally rounded up sufficient forces to attempt to stop the fight and they marched resolutely in an attempt to do so and whilst they were met with fierce resistance and beatings their jostling and actions led to the ring being broken and the fighters were reduced to fighting in an area little more than a few feet square, such was the enclosed space and the poor nature of Heenan’s sight he managed to down members of Sayer’s corner with his blind swings at what he thought were Tom.

In the 37th round though Heenan did manage to find the correct opponent and through pure exhaustion took what he saw as the only opening left to him and began to throttle Sayers against the rope, which was either cut or lowered to assist Tom and in accordance with the rules in place at the time. Whilst neither man was willing to quit the encroaching police, length of the fight and sheer damage inflicted on each fighter meant the referee Dowling had little to no choice but to call the bout at an end and a draw. Whilst both man would claim they were willing to continue and they were on the cusp of victory, most experienced watchers agreed a draw was the right and fair result and neither fighter had anything to give or to prove.

There was some talk of a rematch but a stern warning of reprisals from the Home secretary should such a plan be followed through on meant such talk never got off the ground and perhaps rightly so. Both fighters had suffered greatly as a consequence of the fight. Sayers arm was never to really recover and he was not to fight again and whilst Heenan was seen in the ring a couple more times he was never to recapture the form he had displayed in Aldershot in what had been one of the most famous and brutal fights ever seen in the prize ring.

Lovely stuff Rowleyo, and on a subject I know so little about.

Next up will it be "ODLH - Hype job?"

Rowley, could you clarify a couple of rules from that era for me; If there was a knockdown, what happened? I was under the impression that the victim got as long as he wanted to get up (if conscious) or did the round end and he get dragged back to the corner, and then just had to come up to scratch for the start of the next round.Also how long were the rounds? were they timed or just went no until someone went down or put a knee down? Thanks in advance.

Horizontal. Rounds lasted until someone went down or was put down by either a punch or throw, this created a problem because some fighters were pretty adept at going down without being hit, which was strictly speaking illegal but if you could fake it you got away with it. There are reports the opening round in this one was over five minutes but on the flipside some of the rounds in the Sullivan Kilrain fight were reckoned not to last more than a few seconds.

They then had a minute to get back up and come up to scratch again and their corner were allowed to try to revive them or help them get up to scratch

'Heenan sayers ouch'

Quality read rowley, they bred them tough in those days

Cracking read, Jeff. Thanks for posting.

Little else to add from me as you've covered just about every base. Looking forward to the rest of the series - hopefully Sullivan's final few fights under the old London Prize Ring rules will be featured at some point. Mind you, we're not exactly short on bare-knuckle luminaries to cover, so you'll be spoilt for choice.

Cheers Chris, Sullivan Kilrain has to feature at some point, as does Cribb Molyneux, may even try and get one from Nottingham's favourite son Bendigo for you

Ha ha, was going to suggest that but didn't want to push my luck! I think you should leave that one until the end - the grand finalé to end all grand finalés.

or as quickly agreed as the primitive lines of communications across the ocean allowed.

Bloody T-Mobile!

Great stuff, jeff. There's a cracking overview of the Cribb v Molyneux fight in Budd Schulberg's book, "Ringside". Worth a look if you haven't seen it and should help you summarise the key moments.

Thanks Rowley, great read, brutal stuff.

superflyweight wrote:

or as quickly agreed as the primitive lines of communications across the ocean allowed.

Bloody T-Mobile!

Great stuff, jeff. There's a cracking overview of the Cribb v Molyneux fight in Budd Schulberg's book, "Ringside". Worth a look if you haven't seen it and should help you summarise the key moments.

Cheers super, have got Ringside so dare say I will dip in that when I do that one

rowley wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

or as quickly agreed as the primitive lines of communications across the ocean allowed.

Bloody T-Mobile!

Great stuff, jeff. There's a cracking overview of the Cribb v Molyneux fight in Budd Schulberg's book, "Ringside". Worth a look if you haven't seen it and should help you summarise the key moments.

Cheers super, have got Ringside so dare say I will dip in that when I do that one

No need, just re-post this beauty.

https://www.606v2.com/t27913-cribb-v-molineaux-a-fight-for-the-ages

Cracking article jeffrey. Hats off to you.

There is not a lot I can add to that one Tina. One less to do I suppose, will probably plough into a Sullivan one next. I like old Sully

Give me a shout when/if you do Sullivan v Kilrain as I have a really good book on it at home. Loads of interesting facts and figures in it which I would happily PM to you.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

rowley wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

or as quickly agreed as the primitive lines of communications across the ocean allowed.

Bloody T-Mobile!

Great stuff, jeff. There's a cracking overview of the Cribb v Molyneux fight in Budd Schulberg's book, "Ringside". Worth a look if you haven't seen it and should help you summarise the key moments.

Cheers super, have got Ringside so dare say I will dip in that when I do that one

No need, just re-post this beauty.

https://www.606v2.com/t27913-cribb-v-molineaux-a-fight-for-the-ages

Cracking article jeffrey. Hats off to you.

There was a girl reading a book on Cribb and Molyneux the other day on the Tube. Don't know why but it turned her from slightly fit to really quite hot....!

There was a girl reading a book on Cribb and Molyneux the other day on the Tube. Don't know why but it turned her from slightly fit to really quite hot....!.

Can't believe you didn't talk to her, toppy. I'm happily married but would have run off with that woman in a heartbeat!





.

superflyweight wrote:

There was a girl reading a book on Cribb and Molyneux the other day on the Tube. Don't know why but it turned her from slightly fit to really quite hot....!.

Can't believe you didn't talk to her, toppy. I'm happily married but would have run off with that woman in a heartbeat!



.

To right super, she's a catch, even TSMR could not be tempted to dip into the Rowely library of boxing literature.

Excellent work Jeff, If your taking requests Old smokey Morrissey (seeing as you mentioned him) next please, the fight where he got his nick-name. I feel like a kid asking for his favourite bedtime story.

rowley wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

There was a girl reading a book on Cribb and Molyneux the other day on the Tube. Don't know why but it turned her from slightly fit to really quite hot....!.

Can't believe you didn't talk to her, toppy. I'm happily married but would have run off with that woman in a heartbeat!



.

To right super, she's a catch, even TSMR could not be tempted to dip into the Rowely library of boxing literature.

What can I say, I'm a bashful sort......

Superfly - you seem to have caught Jennifer1984's compunction to end every post with:





.

?

Perhaps I am her?





.

I was wondering.....please don't be, she was very patronising.

Great read Jeff, always been fascinated by the bare knuckle era since reading about Cribb v Molyneaux in 'Black Ajax'.

I noticed in your reply to Horizontal you mentioned they had a minute to return to scratch - didn't this used to be 30 seconds?

You could well be right mate, could not decide between the two this morning and was too lazy/tired to look it up

Cracking article Rowley...almost as good as my "Peter Jackson v Frank Slavin" effort way back when I had the time and inclination to write something people might deign worthy of reading.

Since then it's been "Bradley Pryce v Floyd Mayweather"

ChelskiFanski wrote:Great read Jeff, always been fascinated by the bare knuckle era since reading about Cribb v Molyneaux in 'Black Ajax'.

I noticed in your reply to Horizontal you mentioned they had a minute to return to scratch - didn't this used to be 30 seconds?

Yep, 30 seconds is correct.

superflyweight wrote:

There was a girl reading a book on Cribb and Molyneux the other day on the Tube. Don't know why but it turned her from slightly fit to really quite hot....!.

Can't believe you didn't talk to her, toppy. I'm happily married but would have run off with that woman in a heartbeat!





.

Women should not be interested in boxing, it is a mans sport.

Tell that to Nicola Adams

DAVE667 wrote:Tell that to Nicola Adams

I would, but she'd probably punch me

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Tell that to Nicola Adams

I would, but she'd probably punch me

There are those that would say that is all the more reason for you to do it, although I am not one of them, i'm far too nice a bloke.

rowley wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Tell that to Nicola Adams

I would, but she'd probably punch me

There are those that would say that is all the more reason for you to do it, although I am not one of them, i'm far too nice a bloke.

I suppose it wouldn't hurt, she is only a woman after all.

I would love to see the previously mentioned Jennifer_1984 and Lumbering Jack have a face off on here, would be a pick em.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5438064/lulz/000yg60c.gif

two_tone wrote:I would love to see the previously mentioned Jennifer_1984 and Lumbering Jack have a face off on here, would be a pick em.

That would be AMAZING!

TopHat24/7 wrote:

two_tone wrote:I would love to see the previously mentioned Jennifer_1984 and Lumbering Jack have a face off on here, would be a pick em.

That would be AMAZING!

Is she the man hater who patrols the athletics thread?

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

two_tone wrote:I would love to see the previously mentioned Jennifer_1984 and Lumbering Jack have a face off on here, would be a pick em.

That would be AMAZING!

Is she the man hater who patrols the athletics thread?

Yep, that's the one! Don't think she's been on since the Olympics finished. She also hated anyone without a doctorate and a volume of factual data to back up an opinion they dared venture.

Basically anybody and everybody except Jo Brand.

She even had a hissy fit about men liking boobs for Christ's sake

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

two_tone wrote:I would love to see the previously mentioned Jennifer_1984 and Lumbering Jack have a face off on here, would be a pick em.

That would be AMAZING!

Is she the man hater who patrols the athletics thread?

Yep, that's the one! Don't think she's been on since the Olympics finished. She also hated anyone without a doctorate and a volume of factual data to back up an opinion they dared venture.

Well I have a GCSE A grade in Mathematics so she is bound to love me.

I do remember her. She was self obsessed pompus fool. Sure she is lovely in real life, her girlfriend probably thinks the world of her.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

two_tone wrote:I would love to see the previously mentioned Jennifer_1984 and Lumbering Jack have a face off on here, would be a pick em.

That would be AMAZING!

Is she the man hater who patrols the athletics thread?

Yep, that's the one! Don't think she's been on since the Olympics finished. She also hated anyone without a doctorate and a volume of factual data to back up an opinion they dared venture.

Well I have a GCSE A grade in Mathematics so she is bound to love me.

I do remember her. She was self obsessed pompus fool. Sure she is lovely in real life, her girlfriend probably thinks the world of her.

I figured she was either a really ugly flat-chested dyke that was bitter at the hand she'd been dealt in life or, given she was very smart and highly educated, maybe she was like vespa lynd of Casino Royal i.e. self-conscious that despite her brains her beauty means she'll never be respected by her peers.

PS: Really sorry for derailing your thread so spectacularly Rowley.

At least on the face of it you got plenty of hits tho......

Well this debate more than justifies the effort that went into the thread.

Apologies for my part in it, was a very interesting thread and enjoyed reading it. Have little to add thats contructive though as my knowledge of the old school days is limited at best. Do enjoy reading these ones though and makes the day more interesting and it had stopped me hitting F5 every few seconds on the BBC deadline day page!

If you needed any reassuring as to whether the effort put into this thread had been worthwhile jeff, tunes666 has been on MS Paint and knocked up a lovely picture for you!

That's vindication right there.

Good effort tunes.

rowley wrote:Horizontal. Rounds lasted until someone went down or was put down by either a punch or throw, this created a problem because some fighters were pretty adept at going down without being hit, which was strictly speaking illegal but if you could fake it you got away with it. There are reports the opening round in this one was over five minutes but on the flipside some of the rounds in the Sullivan Kilrain fight were reckoned not to last more than a few seconds.

They then had a minute to get back up and come up to scratch again and their corner were allowed to try to revive them or help them get up to scratch

I find that all very interesting, as it lends weight to the arguement that the introduction of gloves and the Queensbury rules made boxing less brutal, but more dangerous in terms of acute brain injury and ring deaths.