Lions watch - ESPN team of this week's contenders...

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 3 Sep - 16:02

First topic message reminder :

... post Rabo and AP action:

Lions Watch: Team of the Week
ESPN Staff
September 3, 2012
Wasps' Christian Wade proves elusive, Wasps v Harlequins, Aviva Premiership, Twickenham, London, England, September 1, 2012
Fleet-footed Wasps winger Christian Wade lit up Twickenham with a two-try display against Quins on Saturday © PA Photos
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Players/Officials: Steffon Armitage | Brad Barritt | Mike Brown | Lee Dickson | Dylan Hartley | Joe Launchbury | Tim Payne | Nick Robinson | Aaron Shingler | Tim Visser | Christian Wade | Scott Williams
Tournaments/Tours: British & Irish Lions tour 2013 | Aviva Premiership | RaboDirect PRO12

With the start of the Aviva Premiership and RaboDirect PRO12 campaigns, the countdown to the eagerly-awaited British & Irish Lions tour to Australia is well and truly on.

As we all tick off the days until the team depart Down Under, ESPNscrum will cast an eye across the action - including the Top 14 battle - and pinpoint those players eligible for the elite tourists who are pushing their selection claims with strong performances.

There is a lot of rugby to be played until the squad board the plane for Hong Kong and plenty of time for hopes to rise and fall with many international stars yet to return to the domestic fray but the excitement is already building.

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins)

The Harlequins fullback scored a second-half brace to secure a thrilling victory over Wasps at Twickenham, coming to their aid as he did so many times last season as they wrapped up a maiden Premiership title.

14. Christian Wade (Wasps)

The flying Wasps winger made a mark on the London Double Header with two superb tries against Harlequins, the second of which conjured memories of the great Jason Robinson's try for the Lions against Australia in 2001. Pushed all the way by a in-form Sarries signing Chris Ashton.

13. Brad Barritt (Saracens)

The England international drops in at outside centre for the purposes of this selection after a typical busy display punctuated with a try as his side swept aside London Irish.

12. Scott Williams (Scarlets)

It will take a big effort for the Scarlets centre to displace Jamie Roberts and Jonathan Davies in the Wales midfield, but he hit the ground running with a try in his region's opening-day hammering of Leinster.

11. Tim Visser (Edinburgh)

Edinburgh came out on the wrong end of the result against Munster at Murrayfield, but their newly-minted Scotland wing kicked-off his season in fine style with a hat-trick of tries.

10. Nicky Robinson (Wasps)

Nick Evans stole the limelight at Twickenham with his second-half heroics, but it was Robinson who lit the touchpaper in the first, with his strong passing game and awareness allowing Wasps to put Wade and Tom Varndell into space out wide.

9. Lee Dickson (Northampton)

The Saints and England scrum-half played a key role in his side's Premiership victory over Gloucester with his quick-thinking and slick hands playing a part in two crucial scores.

1. Tim Payne (Wasps)

The veteran loose-head got in on the scoring act as Wasps rediscovered some form against Quins at Twickenham - could the 33-year-old force his way into the international mix?

2. Dylan Hartley (Northampton)

As far as the Lions go, hooker is one position that is wide open. Hartley made a good start to the season with a try against Gloucester and will hope to prove that he's in the right form and frame of mind to tour come June.

3. Dan Cole (Leicester)

Rock-solid at the set-piece and a devil at the breakdown, Cole was in fine form against London Welsh in the Tigers' opener. Showed his new, rounded game.

4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps)

Just 21, Launchbury should be in with a shout of England selection sooner rather than later. Able to play in the second and back-rows, he was superb in an all-action opening against Harlequins.

5. Geoff Parling (Leicester)

Dominant at the lineout against London Welsh. A real technician in that department and carried very well, taking his try in good style. Has arrived at club level, now to nail down that England spot for good.

6. Aaron Shingler (Scarlets)

Shingler only has two Wales caps to his name but a blistering start to the season in Scarlets colours could soon see that change.

7. Steffon Armitage (Toulon)

Armitage may not be on England's radar at the moment, but he continues to shine in the Top 14 in France where his efforts have helped propel Toulon to the top of the league - most recently with a try in their win against Mont de Marsan at the weekend.

8. Thomas Waldrom (Leicester)

England's Kiwi-born No.8 bagged a brace against Premiership newcomers London Welsh and displayed the kind of dynamic ball-carrying that made his name.

Some "interesting" choices in there that wouldn't have been on my list!

by KickAndChase Wed 12 Sep - 0:51

When I read the 2nd ESPN "Lions Watch" I genuinely felt like it was a joke.

I'm still debating whether it is or not.

by KickAndChase Wed 12 Sep - 0:52

(The first one was also ridiculous, but to do it twice this far away from April...)

Do they watch the PRO12?

Maybe they'll stick a french man in there next time.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 12 Sep - 15:00

Wont slate you beloved each to their own etc but certainly won't agree with you.

What Lydiate does is allow the other two back rowers to purely concentrate on their game and he does it very very well indeed.

He's not the biggest of ball carriers though doing it more and more of late. Will Greenwood is one of the few pundits I generally like and think know what he is on about and he raves about Lydiate

by thebluesmancometh Wed 12 Sep - 15:29

bedford

I tend to think pundits find it way too easy to jump on bandwagons though, I quite like Greenwood he is one of the more thoughtfull guys but my god they all just tend to agree with each other for the sake of it.

It's popular to be a Lydiate fan right now.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 12 Sep - 15:33

Greenwood is the only one I tend to take any notice of.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 12 Sep - 15:37

Other back row players get slated for doing what Lydiate does though

by thebluesmancometh Wed 12 Sep - 15:42

Like?

by ChequeredJersey Wed 12 Sep - 15:44

Robshaw springs to mind

by thebluesmancometh Wed 12 Sep - 15:47

But what does Robshaw do to get slated that Lydiate gets praised for?

by ChequeredJersey Wed 12 Sep - 15:48

Everything Lydiate does plus the work at the breakdown, in my opinion.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 12 Sep - 15:49

But it's laughable to suggest him for a Lion start but Lydiate is nailed on!

by gowales Wed 12 Sep - 15:52

Robshaw and Lydiate are very similar players. They both do the dirty unseen work if you will.

Lydiate does seem to get a huge amount of praise and Robshaw is sort of shunted to the side, perhaps it's because he's fairly new to international rugby?

by ChequeredJersey Wed 12 Sep - 15:55

I sound pretty bitter here, but it's not Lydiate or what he does, which he does very well, that annoys me it's that some posters on here can say the way he plays is a strength for Lydiate but the same thing is a weakness for Robshaw, which I cannot understand, because logically that cannot be true unless I'm missing a part of the argument

by thebluesmancometh Wed 12 Sep - 15:59

Everything Lydiate does plus work at the breakdown????

I could argue with that all day long! But then I wouldn't say Lydiate is nailed on at all!

Robshaw and Lydiate are very different players, and neither do a massive amount of unseen work (Robshaw does more than Lydiate mind)

IMO Robshaw gets a bit of a raw deal because he's a bit of everything and master of none...

Warbs Rennie both fetch better, and support as well.
Ferris is much bigger, more dynamic and does as much in the tight
SOB and Ferris carry so much more effectively
Lydiates defencive organisation, line leading, line speed and tackle tech is superior
Strockosh, Denton really strong in the tight

I'd put Robshaw on par with Ryan Jones, good all rounders but just not specialists that todays game wants.

by thebluesmancometh Wed 12 Sep - 16:01

SOB and Croft - not SOB and Ferris

by gowales Wed 12 Sep - 16:02

I'm not sure about that though bluesman.

Rosbshaw has been the top tackler, if not in the top 5 in the Aviva Prem for the past 4/5 years.

We've seen a lot more of Lydiate at international level tbf, i'm not sure if he's so much more superior to Robshaw in that aspect.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 12 Sep - 16:05

You've omitted to say who you think is a better linkman Wink

I disagree (both on the points specifically about Robshaw and that today's game wants specialists), but if we all agreed on these, the forum would be bloody tedious Hug

by thebluesmancometh Wed 12 Sep - 16:05

I didn't say he was superior to Robshaw in tackle count, but his line leading, line speed and tackle technique is second to none, and his abilities are very team focused, but then he does have weaknesses!!!

by ChequeredJersey Wed 12 Sep - 16:05

gowales wrote:I'm not sure about that though bluesman.

Rosbshaw has been the top tackler, if not in the top 5 in the Aviva Prem for the past 4/5 years.

We've seen a lot more of Lydiate at international level tbf, i'm not sure if he's so much more superior to Robshaw in that aspect.

The stats from the 6N, which I know don't tell everything, would suggest the opposite

by ChequeredJersey Wed 12 Sep - 16:07

Can't believe Stroks is being discussed for a Lions spot, too! Wouldn't make my Scotland 35 if all the options were fit

by thebluesmancometh Wed 12 Sep - 16:07

CJ

I never said I agree'd with it either mate, it just tends to be the trend, a fetcher a carrier and a linkman, if your not a specialist in at least one your not an int!

Also Lydiate is no link man, his Wales role determines him to be defence minded at all times, he's actually a good ball carrier (they didn't name him the welsh fijian at the Dragons for nothing) but he doesn't offer much at int level.

by thebluesmancometh Wed 12 Sep - 16:09

He's not really, I was just making a point, Barclay and Beattie are more all rounders IMO and wouldn't have fit my argument Very Happy

by ChequeredJersey Wed 12 Sep - 16:10

thebluesmancometh wrote:CJ

I never said I agree'd with it either mate, it just tends to be the trend, a fetcher a carrier and a linkman, if your not a specialist in at least one your not an int!

Also Lydiate is no link man, his Wales role determines him to be defence minded at all times, he's actually a good ball carrier (they didn't name him the welsh fijian at the Dragons for nothing) but he doesn't offer much at int level.

Nah, it's just possibly Robshaw's most useful and yet most overlooked talent is as a linkman! Generally that seems to be the iNternational rule, but when the blokes breaking it are called King Richie and Thierry Dusautoir, it makes me think the people making the rule are missing a trick

by gowales Wed 12 Sep - 16:13

I'd say that Robshaw is a better linkman than Rennie, at least he can draw and pass (very well actually)

by ChequeredJersey Wed 12 Sep - 16:14

Quick change, mate Wink

by gowales Wed 12 Sep - 16:15

Yea

by thebluesmancometh Wed 12 Sep - 16:16

It's funny because the role Hartley plays for Northampton I'd call a linkman.

The problem with Robshaw IMO is that with the likes of Rennie and Warbs being high profile, Ferris being head and shouloders ahead of any other 6, and the popularity of Lydiate and Croft, and the barnstorming other options like Morgan, Heaslip, SOB even POM, Falatau and Denton, there just doesn't seem to be a place for him.

Everyone sees the big tackle, the flick out the back door, the penalty win at the breakdown and the barnstorming run through the middle, but only the coaching setup will be looking at the linkplay, the subtle dummy lines, the team effort etc...

Robshaw is well in contention with those who count I guarentee you!

by bedfordwelsh Wed 12 Sep - 17:25

I guess it will all come down to what game plan and back row combination they pink.
As Bluesman says Lydiate is primarily (for Wales) picked for his defensive line speed qualities which he is pretty damn good at.

That then allows Warburton and Faletau/Jones to do more of their own work unlike when Jones at one stage had to try and do bothnthe 6 and 8 role.

He doesn't have to carry that much ball for Wales as we have others to do it, he does however carry more for us Dragons.

by the-goon Mon 17 Sep - 14:49

Do ESPN watch the odd game and pick the rest randomly out of a hat??

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Brown continued his sensational early season form against Sale at the Stoop. He looks odds on to be England's full-back for the autumn internationals, especially with Ben Foden suffering a worrying injury at the weekend, and from there a Lions spot would be within his sights.

14. George North (Scarlets)

North will already be at the forefront of Warren Gatland's plans and another impressive showing for the Scarlets against Connacht, in which he scored one try and set up another for youngster Jordan Williams, will have further pressed the winger's compelling claims.

13. Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster)

After Manu Tuilagi's explosive start to the season for Leicester Tigers and Jonathan Davies' consistent quality for the Scarlets, O'Driscoll made a timely return in his seasonal debut and showed he is still the master with a crucial try in Leinster's one-point win over Treviso.

12. Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues)

The Wales centre, who made such an impression during the Lions' last tour to South Africa in 2009, made his comeback a month earlier than expected as he came off the bench for Cardiff against the Dragons on Saturday night. He will hope to be hitting top form for Wales' autumn internationals.

11. Tim Visser (Edinburgh)

The opposition may not have been the best but Visser's two tries for Edinburgh against Zebre underlined the winger's finishing ability and scorching pace that can be so crucial at the highest level. He is sure to be scrutinised further in the autumn internationals.

10. Stephen Jones (Wasps)

While youngsters Toby Flood and Owen Farrell struggled at Wembley and Rhys Priestland fails to convince, there is hope for the elder statesmen such as Ronan O'Gara, Jonny Wilkinson and Stephen Jones, who was terrific in his debut for Wasps with 23 points.

9. Joe Simpson (Wasps)

The Wasps scrum-half immediately struck up a strong understanding with fly-half Jones, adding incisiveness to the Welshman's calm control. Simpson setup Tom Varndell's second try, made breaks and was at the centre of Wasps' attacking game.

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins)

The loose-head prop played a key role in helping to setup Quins' win over Sale and it promises to be fierce battle between him and Alex Corbisiero for the England No.1 shirt, which could catapult both players on to the plane to Australia.

2. Joe Gray (Harlequins)

The Harlequins hooker may be coming from a long way back but hooker is one of the fewest positions looking rather light for the Lions and Conor O'Shea is in no doubt he has the potential, saying "I don't think there is a better lineout thrower in the game and his work in the loose is excellent".

3. Dan Cole (England)

It was hardly the most inspiring game between Leicester and Saracens at Wembley on Saturday but the Tigers edged their opponents up front and Cole furthered his reputation as one of the prime candidates for the starting tight-head role on tour.

4. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

The combative second-row made his long-awaited return to action as a replacement for Northampton Saints against Bath. It may take him a couple of games to hit his best form but just to see him back playing will have heartened Gatland.

5. Ian Evans (Ospreys)

Wales' giant second-row was on the score-sheet in the Ospreys' losing effort against Glasgow. But he continues to impress in the engine room as Alun Wyn-Jones and Ian Gough vie to partner the 27-year-old.

6. Dan Lydiate (Dragons)

Blindside flanker promises to be the most competitive position in the Lions squad next summer with a wealth of options for Gatland. The Wales flanker, who was Player of the Six Nations last spring, continues to hold his own with another tireless and effective display despite Dragons' loss to Cardiff.

7. Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues)

The Wales skipper remains many peoples' first-choice to lead the Lions in Australia, despite the form and growing influence of Chris Robshaw for Quins and England, and his fierce and scavenging performance against the Dragons will have only enhanced his chances.

8. Jamie Heaslip (Leinster)

The Ireland No.8 has struggled to discover his best form in recent seasons but with a Lions tour on the horizon and plenty of competition from the likes of Toby Faletau, David Denton and Ben Morgan, Heaslip upped the ante against Treviso.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 17 Sep - 15:50

WTF??

Roberts? He came on with 15 to go, touched the ball once and barely moved 15 yards.

Ian Evans over AWJ???

Lawes???

Cole???

Oh dear!!!

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Mon 17 Sep - 16:36

Is Richie Gray slipping down the rankings for lock choice? Have not seem him play this season at Sale but have not heard him mentioned in the press reports. If so his decision to go may turn out to be a very bad one ! Crying or Very sad

by yappysnap Mon 17 Sep - 16:48

Seconded Bluesman, they just seem to go by players reps rather then actual form.

Fairly horrific journalism.

Still at least they have Brown, Marler and Gray in there so they can't be all bad. (Gray is a bloomin good shout).

by indigojac Mon 17 Sep - 16:48

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Is Richie Gray slipping down the rankings for lock choice? Have not seem him play this season at Sale but have not heard him mentioned in the press reports. If so his decision to go may turn out to be a very bad one !

tbf Sale have sucked

by Poorfour Mon 17 Sep - 18:29

Richie Gray didn't do much wrong on Saturday, but Sale as a team didn't do much right. He'll probably tour but it'll be on the back of the 6N rather than club performance.

FWIW, I think that Robshaw will tour if fit and in form, for two reasons. Firstly, while there are other players who are better at each individual aspect of the flanker's role, there are very few who are as consistent across all of them. Secondly, and more importantly, for what he does for the squad and the team. Teams play better when he is in the pitch, partly because the other players seem to respond to the effort he puts in, but also because he gets through so much work that he creates space and time for other players to play to their strengths (which is why he gets compared to Richard Hill).

Even if Robshaw was only captaining the midweek team, the tour would be better for it; I can't think of another player who in that position would lift the level of support and competition that they'd offer to the same degree.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 17 Sep - 21:28

Poorfour

I see your points regarding Robshaw, but IMO there are too many specialists and superior players in front of him for the tests, and my thinking would be maybe Ryan Jones would be just as usefull as an allrounder and better off the bench?

by ChequeredJersey Mon 17 Sep - 21:34

I don't think Robshaw is anything like a cert to tour. Obviously I think he should but I am completely biased. The thing he has over Jones is that he is better at the breakdown and whilst he doesn't cover 4 or 5 he does cover the whole backrow. Suspect if there is an English flanker on tour it will be Croft as he is a previous Lion or Haskell as he has worked with Gatland before. Both are interesting options. Robshaw would make a good midweek captain but let's see how all the backrow boys cope when the SH come over here.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 17 Sep - 21:38

CJ

Quite right, solid performances this AI will be crucial to getting on Gats radar!!!

by 123456789 Mon 17 Sep - 21:48

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes thats true CJ....

Whats the options...
Barritt
Turner Hall
Allen
Twelvetrees
Waldouck
Fitzpatrick (though hes not even starting for us)
Banahan - Converted winger.

Its not inspiring is it.

I personally think that Allen is incredibly underrated and could potentially tour with the lions; he offers a good alternative to the crashing play of Roberts although I think Matt Scott's a better player. If I was picking the England backline I'd pick: 9. Youngs 10. Flood 11. Ashton 12. Allen 13. Tuilagi 14. Wade 15. Foden

by thebluesmancometh Mon 17 Sep - 21:55

123456789

I'd actually swap Allen with Tuilagi if I was you. Tuilagi's ability to get beaten by decent footwork doesn't help him in the wider position, and his contact abilities would really tie in defenders down the 10 channell.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 17 Sep - 21:59

thebluesmancometh wrote:123456789

I'd actually swap Allen with Tuilagi if I was you. Tuilagi's ability to get beaten by decent footwork doesn't help him in the wider position, and his contact abilities would really tie in defenders

down the 10 channell.

Yeah but apparently in an England shirt he hates passing. Maybe it'd be better at 12 where he doesn't have to give the ball to his bestie, Chris

by thebluesmancometh Mon 17 Sep - 22:02

His offload ability isn't to bad, and in the 10 channell that could be handy, although if England find themselves with numbers out wide he'd do well to lie on the floor and not get in the way.

by Geordie Tue 18 Sep - 20:21

Tuilagi is just fine at 13. Give him a 10 and 12 who can play a bit and England will see the best of him.

Catt has a big job to get this England team actually attacking abit.
When you have the likes of Tuilagi, Ashton, Wade...you have to be able to use them to the best of their abilities...and unfortunatley since Lancaster has taken over...its been dire stuff attack wise.

Whoever listed Lawes above...really? He needs to cement his spot in the Saints second row first..(not coming off the bench to play at 6) and then the England spot...before even thinking about the Lions...

by maestegmafia Fri 21 Sep - 4:40

Tuilagi is a winger not a centre. He would be fantastic there. Don't understand why Tigers/ England persist with him in the centre.

by nathan Fri 21 Sep - 9:37

maestegmafia wrote:Tuilagi is a winger not a centre. He would be fantastic there. Don't understand why Tigers/ England persist with him in the centre.

"persist"

What are you on about!! He does a bloody good job at centre for the Tigers.

by **rodders** Fri 21 Sep - 9:41

Not one player from the fantastic Ulster v Munster match where there were standout performances across the field from both sides?

How the flip did they watch the Leinster game?

Total nonsence this week again.

by Geordie Fri 21 Sep - 12:20

I must admit im not getting this Tuilagi is a rubbish 13 theme...but is a winger.

Many people obviously havent seen many of his games for Leicester at 13?

Has he ever actually played on the wing?

by maestegmafia Fri 21 Sep - 23:47

rodders wrote:Not one player from the fantastic Ulster v Munster match where there were standout performances across the field from both sides?

How the flip did they watch the Leinster game?

Total nonsence this week again.

It really isn't a very conclusive list.

Though 60% of this weeks players are looking more like a probable lions team. Compared to one or two selections previously.

by maestegmafia Fri 21 Sep - 23:50

GeordieFalcon wrote:I must admit im not getting this Tuilagi is a rubbish 13 theme...but is a winger.

Many people obviously havent seen many of his games for Leicester at 13?

Has he ever actually played on the wing?

Actually it was his game for Tigers last weekend which was a prime example of why he should play wing. Give him a chance to Finnish and he'll do well, though give him a chance to creat and he does bigger all.

Considering the talent at both centre positions realistically he isn't an option. But as a centre (midweek) or wing (bench player) he could be usefull.

by belovedfrosties Sat 22 Sep - 0:22

No problem Bedford, nice to have a reasoned discussion with someone welsh on these boards Whistle

I just remember during the 6N everyone was going on about how he was a tackling demon and how he was brilliant. No-one remember one-trick pony Worsley who would tackle everything but was slated for it?

I agree with CJ in that people have always slated Robshaw for what he does and yet Lydiate provides the same defence as him (yet lacks many of Robshaws other talents) and is now one of the best 6's in the NH.

Robshaw made more tackles (higher completion rate too), more carries and more turnovers in the 6N than Lydiate, yet Lydiate still won player of the tournament. How does that make sense?? It was unfortunately JD going crazy for Lydiate and making us watch super slow-mo replays of him performing a regulation tackle. People won't admit it, but they are very susceptible to the opinions of a commentator. For the record, Richie Grey was my player of the tournament (or Ferris, was very close)

by Geordie Sat 22 Sep - 12:53

Frosties,

Yeah some players are just "in vogue" so to speak. Obviously Robshaw is not one...but thats fine. THe more he is disregarded the more damage he will do on the pitch.

Although i suspect opponents on the pitch arent so quick to disregard him...

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