Lions pick worst performing test coach for Australia tour in 2013

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The British & Irish Lions somehow ended up having to pick Warren Gatland as head coach for the tour to Australia next year.

Gatland has had two periods as international test coach - once with Ireland from 1998-2001 and currently with Wales, though he hasnt given that one up just yet.

At test level, you can point to his 2 grand slams. One more than Declan Kidney, which isn't saying much.
But it's his record against SH opposition since Dec 2007 with Wales that bears much greater scrutiny. Against SANZAR teams, he has coached 19, and won once. And it's not for want of trying. Gatland arranged test after test against the supposed weakest of the SH teams and came up short every time, bar a 3 point win at home in his first Austrlaian test in November 2008. Since then, it's been 7 duds on the trot. He's had SA 6 times and NZ 5 times and come up with zip.

This is the guy who's supposed to get the best out of four countries next year against southern opposition, when he can't even manage to get it out of one over the last four years.

mowgli wrote:I don't think Gtaland will make the same mistake Henry did picking players from Wales although no doubt he will come in for criticism for that whatever he does. I beleive it will be harder for welsh players to make the cut to some extent. One exception may be Gethin who he will take as a senior Lion and because in Gats eyes he can do no wrong. Many others who might have been shoo in Lions may fall by the wayside and right now i only see these as nailed on

A Jones
G Jenkins
S Warburton
D Lydiate
M Philips
J Roberts
G North
L 1/2

With a good chance

M Rees
I Evans
L Charters
AWJ
T Faletau
R Prietsland
J Hook
J Davies
G Cuthbert

Mowgli,

I pretty much agree with you on that though I would swap Davies and Halfpenny around.

I think Halfpenny is fantastic and finally hope he has proved to be our No1 XV but I don't think he is nailed on for the Lions though I think his boot and versatility will see him be pretty close to nailed on. If that makes sense

Mowgli are you joking? No player is nailed on.


Phillips and Hook are two of the most overrated players in world rugby.

Lorddowlais Hook is a jack of all trades - master of none.

Halfpenny is a better full back,Priestland a better fly half, Roberts and Davies - better centres. This leaves Hook close to useless except as an utility bench option.

You could queue up for beer and get back to your seat quicker than Phillips passes the ball. He thinks he's a flanker.

I think Wales would be far more threatening with a decent scrum half.

Also both Hook and Phillips are chasing the big money in France.

Apart from Youngs and possibly Care though is there really a better option than Phillips?

Also playing in France probably won't affect Phillips's since the chances of Bayonne making the Top 14 final are extremely unlikely.

I don't want Hook near the Wales set-up nevermind the Lions, although credit to him for saving their blushes on the last tour in SA. The guy is a show boater, his play is erratic to the extreme. Phillips gets copious amounts of unfair criticism and I'm not sure why. Do people think Webb will step in and we'll be world beaters or something? Phillips is a vital cog in our team and is still the best scrum-half available for selection right now.

Halfpenny is a definite tourist. But the Lions will also have players like Foden and Kearney to contest the 15 jersey. Penny will still likely have a place in the team due to his kicking ability as well as other attributes but he could be moved out onto the wing, which means someone else will have to miss out, and I've no idea who because there are a lot of good wingers.

Gowales sadly there aren't many scrum halves that have really stepped up.

I think Youngs is another of the overrated ilk. He's one of the "on his day" players. When he's playing well he's on fire but woefully inconsistent in my opinion. If he can string a few decent performances together he'll be up there for selection.

He had a strong 2009-10 season - very consistent and strong all year. A mediocre to poor 2010-11 season. 2011-12 season - blowing hot and cold but mostly cold. Could SA be the turning point?

With Care - he hasn't really had much opportunities since being injured in the RWC and not being in the 6 nations due to sitting on the naughty step.

Phillips is like an extra flanker - with the Lion's strength in depth in the backrow his services aren't needed.

An in form Youngs would be the best option but can he rediscover it?

Morgannwg it's a rarity that we agree but we do in regards to Hook.

Phillips might be the best you have but it doesn't mean you should be satisfied.

Easter used to be England's shoo in for no 8 but that's because there was no one else stepping up.

Half penny will have to fight like everyone.

At FB he has to fight with Kearney,Foden,Hogg,Brown and Goode etc.

At wing he has to fight off North,Bowe,Ashton,Visser,Cuthbert etc.

BS,

Youngs' form for England has been severely hampered by his injuries, and the style England choose to play. In the right environment when fit hes as good as anyone. However if the Lions are going to play a less dynamic game with a deep standing 10 then theres no point in taking him...better off with Phillips whos at least a monster even if he cant pick the ball up cleanly or Laidlaw at 9 to cut out the middle man and get on with the kicking.

Hooks a difficult one, he would be handy to have on a tour because of that versatility especially covering in midweek games. But the main concern should be best player for a starting 15, not "who can cover position x in the midweek", if they have to put the 4th choice prop at fullback is it a big deal? Its the test side that matters. is Hook likely to be a test player...probably not because he isnt dominant enough in any one position to merit that. At his best he was sublime though, recently hes been messed about with too much...a stellar year in France though could change people opinions of him

gowales wrote:Apart from Youngs and possibly Care though is there really a better option than Phillips?

Also playing in France probably won't affect Phillips's since the chances of Bayonne making the Top 14 final are extremely unlikely.

Nope for all his flaws, Philips is at the moment the best scrum half in Britain or Ireland.

Wing really is an area of strength for the Lions. I would bring North, Bowe, Visser and Ashton.

...one from each nation too.

Hang on a minute, I was not suggesting Hook should be picked for the Lions, I was merely using him as an example, and that is what Gatland likes to do, he likes to have a small squad with players who can cover various postions, LIKE James Hook, or like Ryan Jones who can play 6,8 or second row. He is a coach who likes to edge his bets, so if it were between Flood or Hook, even though Flood is a far superior 10, Gatland would go for Hook as he can be on the bench and cover for a center a full back or an outside half, rather than having a player from one of each of those positions on the bench, if you know what I mean.

Phillips Can be used very effectively at 9 and Gatland can use him effectively. But I don't think he can be used effectively against Australia, and that's not just based (but it is partially) on watching him play Australia but also on his unique style at 9, which is great if you're not playing a team used to dealing with much more physical sides, with a 9 who will skin him every day and flankers that will make his life hell. His strengths are nullified and his weakness (his god-awful pass) prevents our inevitably big backs from running at the sometimes very vulnerable Australian defence and let's their backrow cover any gaps. And he is the opposite player to those who have made Australia uncomfortable like Youngs or Smith

LordDowlais wrote:Hang on a minute, I was not suggesting Hook should be picked for the Lions, I was merely using him as an example, and that is what Gatland likes to do, he likes to have a small squad with players who can cover various postions, LIKE James Hook, or like Ryan Jones who can play 6,8 or second row. He is a coach who likes to edge his bets, so if it were between Flood or Hook, even though Flood is a far superior 10, Gatland would go for Hook as he can be on the bench and cover for a center a full back or an outside half, rather than having a player from one of each of those positions on the bench, if you know what I mean.

Yeah fair general point but Flood is a decent cover 12 and Sexton will be keeping the bench warm, for him anyway;)

LordDowlais wrote:Hang on a minute, I was not suggesting Hook should be picked for the Lions, I was merely using him as an example, and that is what Gatland likes to do, he likes to have a small squad with players who can cover various postions, LIKE James Hook, or like Ryan Jones who can play 6,8 or second row. He is a coach who likes to edge his bets, so if it were between Flood or Hook, even though Flood is a far superior 10, Gatland would go for Hook as he can be on the bench and cover for a center a full back or an outside half, rather than having a player from one of each of those positions on the bench, if you know what I mean.

I have said similar to this before in that if it is a close call between two players (my example was Morgan and Faletau) then versatility might play a big part in it.

majesticimperialman wrote:mowgli

Why do you see Warburton as (Nailed 0n)

What with all the injuries he keeps getting. Will he even make the team/squad?

well obviously if injured he won't be nailed on....otherwise barring the injury caused by the nail he is an absolute cert to tour.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

mowgli wrote:I don't think Gtaland will make the same mistake Henry did picking players from Wales although no doubt he will come in for criticism for that whatever he does. I beleive it will be harder for welsh players to make the cut to some extent. One exception may be Gethin who he will take as a senior Lion and because in Gats eyes he can do no wrong. Many others who might have been shoo in Lions may fall by the wayside and right now i only see these as nailed on

A Jones
G Jenkins
S Warburton
D Lydiate
M Philips
J Roberts
G North
L 1/2

With a good chance

M Rees
I Evans
L Charters
AWJ
T Faletau
R Prietsland
J Hook
J Davies
G Cuthbert

Mowgli,

I pretty much agree with you on that though I would swap Davies and Halfpenny around.

I think Halfpenny is fantastic and finally hope he has proved to be our No1 XV but I don't think he is nailed on for the Lions though I think his boot and versatility will see him be pretty close to nailed on. If that makes sense

Like you, I think 1/2 is a cert for his versatility but mainly because he is a metronomic kicker and both 1997 Lions (Jinks) and 2012 RWC (Hook/Priest) proved just how vital kicking is.

I think JD2 is on the cusp of being a cert pending the autumn and 6 nations performances but feel he could go either way.

beshocked wrote:Mowgli are you joking? No player is nailed on.


Phillips and Hook are two of the most overrated players in world rugby.

Lorddowlais Hook is a jack of all trades - master of none.

Halfpenny is a better full back,Priestland a better fly half, Roberts and Davies - better centres. This leaves Hook close to useless except as an utility bench option.

You could queue up for beer and get back to your seat quicker than Phillips passes the ball. He thinks he's a flanker.

I think Wales would be far more threatening with a decent scrum half.

Also both Hook and Phillips are chasing the big money in France.

No not joking and while i partially agree ref Hook we know Gats favours versatility in players and Hook covers 3 back positions and kicks. While this versatility has worked against him at national level because he has never made a position his own, on a long tour it is crucial.

I realise in my first list i missed out on R Jones and feel he is a likely tourist as a senior lion and for his versatility

I also tend to agree with you about our scrum half option. I think we need a Care at 9 to get us on the front foot and that Philipps is somewhat overrated now but i was on the 2009 tour and his impact against SA was clear for all to see. Yes that was some years ago now but i still think he will tour because the 9 options aren't great and he has the expereince.

As far as the problems with French clubs i think welsh players are mad not to negotiate these clauses into thir contracts at the outset and feel the WRU should stipulate that if you are in the Welsh squad you must do that if you play in Frnace

I wonder if Deans will still be head coach by the Lions tour?
chatting to my cousin on facebook who is a teacher out in Aus, he reckons the general feeling over there is if Deans loses one game this Autumn NH tour he will be sacked on his returning home.

Interesting that Gatlands back tracked slightly now Toulon have confirmed they wont release Jenkins, hes stated its not a set rule that players have to be available. I guess that gives him breathing space if he thinks gethin doesnt merit a starting place, but gives him the flexibility if he feels he really needs him.

Gatland has had a poor start. Rushing things. The man needs to slow down and think.

Leaving out the Scottish captain who won all his games in Oz this summer as a possible Lions captain was pretty dumb, and unnecessarily discourteous. Combine that with his three, no four, countries, comment, and now making rash statements about French-based players' availability leaves him looking somewhat naive and ignorant.

The sooner he gets a coaching team around him the better. Best thing he could do now is shut up talking to media, and get on with the job.

Pleaseeeeeeee no Hook at XV.

There are far better players than him in the other sides for him to EVER be considered at XV for the Lions

GunsGerms wrote:

gowales wrote:That's a good shout. I don't think Ashton really had the goods or the steel to be an international head coach, especially at his age. By all accounts though he is a very good attack coach. It would be good to have a Briton as well

Id rather have Eddie OSullivan or Joe Schmidt as backs coach. I guess that is beacuse Ashton's tenure with Ireland wasnt particularly sucessful.

Eddie O'Sullivan wont even be considered with Gatland as head coach. Not after what happened at the IRFU.

joe Schmidt is a good call but Howley will get the job.

As Geech said in interview recently you need a management team that knows each other well so that the hard questions can be asked early doors....i can't imagine it will be a Gat/Edwards/Howley ticket but the fact is that relationship may be necessary. That said there should be a non Weslh team member on the staff

viewtothegym wrote:I wonder if Deans will still be head coach by the Lions tour?
chatting to my cousin on facebook who is a teacher out in Aus, he reckons the general feeling over there is if Deans loses one game this Autumn NH tour he will be sacked on his returning home.

That's one heck of a source you've got there. Any more insider information?

The dream team to coach would of course be: Graham Henry, Wayne Smith and Gatland (all available) and if he gets the sack from Australia then Robbie Deans could be a useful technical assistant, or maybe they should think ahead and get Ewen McKenzie as a breakdown coach before he gets a job for the Wallabies and they become harder to beat.