Forget the Lions, for England the 2013 Argentinian summer tour is where its at......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/8701915.stm

With all the emotion currently swirling around with Warren Gatlands appointment to lead the 2013 Lions, I think its neccessary to offer a selfish national perspective.

In 2015 England will be hosting the Rugby World Cup, this is just three seasons away and so there is no time for any deviation from the cause. To my mind we have already got the coaching set up wrong and so are seriously wounded in our attempt to win the WC - there is not enough time for more mistakes and Lancaster's call for Lions inclusion is a worrying sign - quite frankly do us all a favour and exit stage left now!

The Lions tour is an alternative pinnicle for the senior players to aspire too, however it is also a curates egg of impossibility.

With my finger in the wind, once again I can see a good proportion of the Lions squad being non English. Therefore for those English players not selected to play in Oz, the focus must be 2015 and therfore I think the Argentinian tour is crucial to the development of the 2015 worldcup squad.

Rugby reality.

kingelderfield wrote:With my finger in the wind, once again I can see a good proportion of the Lions squad being non English. Therefore for those English players not selected to play in Oz, the focus must be 2015 and therfore I think the Argentinian tour is crucial to the development of the 2015 worldcup squad.

Rugby reality.

Great news, you will be welcome to play in our country.

kingelderfield wrote:Lancaster's call for Lions inclusion is a worrying sign

I completely and utterly disagree with you. I want Warren Gatland to select rather a lot of English players as this suggests we have actually developed some decent players.

The best of the rest can then go on the tour to Argentina - which gives a really good chance to see how good some of the other players really are.

If there are Lions with Englabd, it is an opportunity to see whether the young pretenders (Miller, Wallace, Harden for example) can step up which might not otherwise be available for years

yeah, I'm glass half full on this.

So long as the players come through injury free

Great news that all June tests will be 3 match series. But why not the other way round for the SH touring teams? Ok, there are fewer teams available to tour and 4 does not go well into 5 or 6 but even two tests would be better than one.

Good tour for England indeed.

I think its great news for three England Tests....

At the moment i think the following will be with the Lions...

1) Definates -
Cole, Croft, Ashton, Flood, Foden, Marler
2) Probables -
Care or Youngs, Tuilagi
3) My Wildcard picks -
Wade, Launchbury, Morgan,

We can still send a very strong squad for English tests...with a nice mix of setttled players and maybe a few fringe...new players...

Whilst Croft did become one of Gatland's "favourites" in 2009, I would not have him as a definite.

In fact I would probably only put Dan Cole as a definite right now.

Probables - Ashton, Tuilagi, Care or Youngs

Strong Contenders - Marler, Hartley, Croft, Robshaw, Flood, Foden

Truth be told I don't really want any England players going off with the Lions. I like the Lions, don't get me wrong, but I'm an England fan first and foremost and I don't want an opposition coaching team get lots of quality time with our players enabling them to better understand their strengths and weaknesses. As it appears likely that the main coaches will be Gatland, Edwards and Howley, for me that makes it a bit of a no go this time round. I don't mind when it's recently retired coaches, or there's an even mix so everybody gives and takes a bit in that respect - but it appears that won't be the case this time round.

Don't get me wrong, I mean no disrespect to Gatland and co. and I will support the Lions. However, I don't want Gatland coming along to any England training camps/sessions and having a nosey around, and I don't want Gatland, Edwards and Howley getting several weeks to work out the players weaknesses.

LT
I just think his performances in the last 6n proved how good he is...and his lineout is quite fantastic. His pace around the park could be huge aswell...i would definately take him to contrasdt the likes of Lydiate or Ferris etc.

As it appears likely that the main coaches will be Gatland, Edwards and Howley,

Big - Is that a fact? I hope our best players are picked...and actuaslly get games...not just bench warmers.
Then we can send a strong sqaud to Argentina...a mix of settled players and newbies...ie blooding new TH props etc...

Gatland is going to start Phillips over Youngs or Care- which given his style of play and Australia's and the fact he got schooled by an off-form Genia 3 matches on the trott and Aus' weaknesses are wider outfield than Phillips' channel that loves to attack and he will kill the backline and we've seen Youngs-esque fast players like Smith (with a lightning pass, something I have specifically never seen from Phillips) have made Australia pay all adds up to making me a little pessimistic over Gatland atm

Thats one i really hope he doesnt CJ.

Im not a fan of Phillips...against the likes of SA he is useful...but not for Oz.

GeordieFalcon - I don't think it's a fact yet, but newspaper reports seem to suggest that Gatland wants him and Wales are willing to let him go. Much as I dislike much journalist reporting they're generally pretty clued up with this sort of thing. It will certainly be confirmed one way or the other by the time the team is selected.

Oooh, so - an England team - probable Lions tourists.

Mullan
T.Youngs/Grey
Harden
G.Robson
L.Deacon
Gibson
Kevesic

Simpson/Wigglesworth
F.Burns/G.Ford
Strettle
Billy Twelvetrees
G.Lowe
T.Biggs
Miller

There are plenty of fringe Lions players that I havent selected that would probably be involved -
PDJ, JTH, Monye, Fearns, Crane (maybe)

propdavid_london wrote:Oooh, so - an England team - probable Lions tourists.

Mullan
T.Youngs/Grey
Harden
G.Robson
L.Deacon
Gibson
Kevesic

Simpson/Wigglesworth
F.Burns/G.Ford
Strettle
Billy Twelvetrees
G.Lowe
T.Biggs
Miller

There are plenty of fringe Lions players that I havent selected that would probably be involved -
PDJ, JTH, Monye, Fearns, Crane (maybe)

It certainly has elements of a good team. I don't know if we'll see Deacon tour, he won't be adding much I wouldn't think given his age and Lancs probably doesn't see him making the RWC. I suspect Lawes won't go with the Lions as he's not even going to be back in club action until November time so he ma well be starting.

Also I thought you wanted Armitage in there again?

Lions probables: B Youngs, T Croft, C Robshaw, D Cole, D Hartley, T Flood, C Ashton, B Foden, M Tuilagi, A Corbisiero, D Care (Most bar Cole are likely mid-weekers)

My team excluding probable Lions picks would be:

1. J Marler
2. T Youngs
3. D Wilson
4. M Garvey
5. C Lawes
6. T Wood
7. M Kvesic
8. C Fearns
9. B Spencer
10. G Ford
11. C Wade
12. B Twelvetrees
13. G Lowe
14. J May
15. M Brown

16. T Lindsay 17. M Mullan 18. R Harden 19. J Launchburry 20. J Haskell 21. J Simpson 22. F Burns 23. N Abendanon

Perhaps a bit defficient in the lineout would be my only concern. Robson I feel is just another Borthwick when it comes to offering much other than tackling around the park; and with some real talent out and about it really needs to be trialled here rather than simply good club players.

Would be nice to see George Ford get some starting time, and as we've seen against SA the Argies have some top quality hard forwards, and we need a pack to stand up to that. The likes of Garvey, Fearns, Lawes, Youngs etc... should help from that point of view. Could be a dynamite back division if George Ford can get some good ball.

The team has very much a Saxons feel to it.
Armitage may be involved with Lions! Although, not if Toulon make it to the T14 finals - Bernard Laporte has already said that.

Agree, unless Lawes has a barnstorming season he should be considered for Lions duty.

Deacon I figured may just be in there for a bit of grunt + Experience.

Current EPS Lions contenders -
Cole,
Corbis
Robshaw
Haskell
Hartley
Youngs
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

Slimmer chances -
Flood
Care
Palmer
Brown??
Morgan

I think Lancs would go roughly...

1 Marler
2 Youngs
3 PDJ
4 Lawes
5 Parling
6 Haskell
7 Wood (or Robshaw if he doesnt Lion)
8 Waldrom

9 Care
10 Ford
11 Wade
12 Barritt
13 Joseph
14 Benjamin (Or Monye..ie a large powerful winger)
15 Brown / Goode