Ideas to improve Pro 12 attendance.

by Kingshu Thu 06 Sep 2012, 8:22 am

First topic message reminder :

Theres are lots on comments on other threads about the attendance of Pro 12 games, partically in Wales, and I thought that its easy to give out but what can be done to improve it?

This is going to be different in each country, and also for each team.

Your ideas please.

Please keep them realistic, as tickets for same price as the cinema isn't going to be finicialally viable, and no WUMS please.

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:09 pm

dreamer

All teams sites arent going to be accurate mind, there are plenty of reasons to fudge stats!

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:11 pm

Cas

you make a good point but they are still to be a force in europe!!

They struggle to get out of their group these days, that one big awe inspiring HC would definately change things for the region who did it, maybe even all 4.

The Blues semi got one hell of a crowd, and a real buzz around the city, sorry region.

by Casartelli Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:12 pm

42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot. In Welsh rugby this rises to 85.4%

by Guest Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:12 pm

Bluesman, I know that seriously how can you say the Blues fudged their stats when they put in the 3.5K attendance? I would believe theirs over some random sites tbh.

by Kingshu Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:13 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Here you go scarlet...

http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=394&statType=home_Att

I was shocked too!

You know those stats are out.

it shows Ulster Average 7,454 total 37,268, this means it was taken as an average of 5 games! not the season, an dby the looks of it one was Aironi with the seasons lowest attendance.

You may be right that Blues lowest was 3000, but was left out of there calculations.

I'd still hold that the season average attendance was
Leinster
Munster
Scarlets
Ulster

by geoff998rugby Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:21 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Actually it went

Leinster
Munster
Scarlet
Ospreys
Blues
Ulster

Theres a link around here somewhere

Big problem with those stats is the Welsh teams include Season Tickets holders regardless, Ulster only include them if they actually attend. If we were comparing like with like it would be a very different story.

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:28 pm

dreamer

Ther same way the Blues posted a small profit first year at the CCS I think it was when we all know those figures included subsiduary profits from other companies to make up the deficit!!

If they barely tell the truth to the taxman why would they fear fudging figures on their own website?

by red_stag Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:31 pm

Blue,

You are looking foolish now.

It has been proven the stats from Statbunker are incomplete and you are now asserting that the Cardiff Blues and the RaboDirect Pro 12 official stats department have intentionally corrupted the figures.

by Kingshu Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:32 pm

anyway this isn't whos got the best worst attendance

as in theorginal title its across the Pro 12 and in the description it says

This is going to be different in each country, and also for each team.

We haven't mentioned any Ideas for Italy or Scotland yet.

Personally I think Glasgow have done a good turn moving to a smaller more atmospheric stadium should increase match day experience, and make people want to come back. Also someimes Firpark was more like a beach, hopefully ground stands up to more.

Edinburgh - we all know that they are in one of the worst stadiums for pro 12 level rugby, just way way to big.
We know there arn't any real alternatives, but what did happen to the idea of erecting tempory stands on a Murryfield training pitch, I liked this. even if the weather would only mean it is used at start and end of season, and back into Murryfield for worst of winter.

and Italy? man I don't know

by SecretFly Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:33 pm

Not much on the old Stat market - of any variety, either attendances or the more vicious "most line breaks made" etc.

BUT - before I go on, are those stats you're all talking about based on full attendance figures for those home fixtures (ie, both home and away fans included in the numbers) or are you just trying to dissect for example how many Ulster fans or Scarlet fans alone showed up for Ulster or Scarlet home games?

by Portnoy Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:37 pm

red_stag wrote:Blue,

You are looking foolish now.

It has been proven the stats from Statbunker are incomplete and you are now asserting that the Cardiff Blues and the RaboDirect Pro 12 official stats department have intentionally corrupted the figures.

Sorry Stag.

I missed the post that proved "the stats from Statbunker are incomplete" . Can you give me a steer?

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:40 pm

Stag

Firstly I'm not claiming anything, if you read my earlier posts I've commented that all stats have an element of doubt.

The fact that the Blues are happy to fudge accounts doesn't bode well for their credibility, and the stats they post are their own on their own website so there is no accountability.

If your the type of person who believes everything that everyone tells you then pop down to the Car shop, they'd love to meet you.

My point is simple, stats arent automatically correct because someone told you they were.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:41 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:Are you claiming the BBC's and S4C's budget stretches to the equivilant of 10 thousand people, per region, per home game, all season?

On modest profit margins that would be the equivilant of over 10k per region per home game

x4 = 40,000

x11 = 440,000

We are looking at a figure over 1/2 a million in reality?!

According to Roger Lewis, yes, and that is why the WRU do not want to stop it, its all about advertising as well, but for my two penneth, the regions should be using the fact that they are on the tele to sell themselves to the people watching, so that the average person looking at their tv screen starts to think, hey it looks good there I would not mind a peice of that, which for the Blues going back to the cap might do. You cannot under estemate how many people are tuning in to watch the regions on S4C and BBC Wales, and it's not just people from Wales, in the same interview he gave about how much the regions get from it I think he said there were about two hundred and fifty thousand people tuning just to watch the regions, weather that be people who just want to watch a game, or people who cannot afford to go to the game itself, or people who just love rugby around the world and tune in. Look at it this way, I cannot ever see me going to a Super 14 game, but I have watched loads of them on Sky over the last few weeks just becuase I love watching rugby, should they not show those games so that I might have actually go to Aus/New Zealand/South Africa to watch them ? And this is what it is all about, companies spend a lot of money to advertise during the commercials, god knows how much the Principality Building Society are paying to sponsor the progaramme itself, look at the audience they are getting and without the tele they wouldn't get it, would the regions get the same price or sponsers at their grounds if they were never on the tele, I doubt it very much.

LOrd - that is why I was suggesting only showing away matches and derby matches. If you show the Scarlets playing well infront of a packed RDS and the fans of both sides singing and chanting it looks good. However if you show the Scarlets playing against Leinster in a ground that has two stands closed off it doesn't look as good. I know which one would seel turning up to a regional game more. And likewise with the derby matches, they are generally packed grounds and real atmospheres.

Also seeing as away games are far harder to attend than home games it would give the regions more exposure IMO, as you will have more chances to see them (live + on TV, so pretty much all games) than you do now.

But what good would that do the regions when they cannot get any advertising at their grounds because there are no tv cameras there, most of the companies that advertise and sponser our regions are Welsh companies who want to appeal to people who are here, not to somebody in Ireland who might think, oh hang on a minute I might pop over to Newport to buy a car, no, they want to appeal to us the Welsh public and if they get their name across to a few people outside of Wales then thats a bonus, but for advertising reasons alone we need the home games on the tele, do not under estemate the power of advertising.

Re-read my original comment.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:2 - Get the RaboDirect Pro12 Broadcast partners to agree only to show games that are being played away and local derby matches. So for instance BBC 2W and S4C would not show any of the regions home games (bar derbies), but would show their away games. The 'I only watch rugby on tv' fan will not miss out on seeing rugby on tv, and may be impressed when they see a packed Thomand or RDS etc enought to turn up to their local regions games againt Munster/Leinster to see the atmospher 1st hand. The 'I support my side, but don't go as their games are all on tv' fan would be far more likely to turn up as they will not be able to see their side play that week unless they go to the ground. The 'attend all home games' fans will be rewarded with being able to see their side on tv when they are not watching them live at home. AND the public will not be seeing empty stands etc, which causes the storm in the tea cup on here.

By getting them all to show away games only (and local derbies) matches at the Liberty wold be shown on TG4, BBC Alba etc etc. So the adveritsing would still be out there. Also the advertising at the home grounds would still be on Scrum V on Sunday, on the teams websites etc too.

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:43 pm

How would the advertising still be there Scarlet?

Why would EADS pay all that money to the Blues when the only TV exposure they would get would be outside of Wales, on a few seconds clip on a less watched highlight show and on a website!

Infact I'd say they'd go as far as to want 75% payment returned!

by red_stag Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:45 pm

Portnoy wrote:
red_stag wrote:Blue,

You are looking foolish now.

It has been proven the stats from Statbunker are incomplete and you are now asserting that the Cardiff Blues and the RaboDirect Pro 12 official stats department have intentionally corrupted the figures.

Sorry Stag.

I missed the post that proved "the stats from Statbunker are incomplete" . Can you give me a steer?

Read Geoffs post above. It shows they are only valid for first 5 games.

Blue you are taking the other extreme and simply assuming they are wrong.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:47 pm

Tell Bath and Saracens theres no salary cap in the rabo, see if you can get the top Jeff clubs to break away and join it.
Get rid of the Scots.
Add a "home final" for the top two teams from each nation in head to heads across the season.
Accept the Franglo proposals for less HC spots and qualification base don merit. This will mean more fan focus on the league, more games with meaning, also a reduction in teams willingness to field weakened sides and playing phoney games.

None of those will be done of course

Statbunker is notoriously unreliable, I have no idea why anyone uses it.

by Kingshu Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:48 pm

Kingshu wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:Here you go scarlet...

http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=394&statType=home_Att

I was shocked too!

You know those stats are out.

it shows Ulster Average 7,454 total 37,268, this means it was taken as an average of 5 games! not the season, an dby the looks of it one was Aironi with the seasons lowest attendance.

You may be right that Blues lowest was 3000, but was left out of there calculations.

I'd still hold that the season average attendance was
Leinster
Munster
Scarlets
Ulster

Think its this one Portnoy that redstag was talking about, I haven't looked into how many games the other stats used but it seams an unfair comparasion, to use 5 games for one team, verses maybe a season or different 5 teams.

I bet you could make Connacht look really good if you use their h cup games + Munster and Leinster derbies. Would look like one of the top supported teams

by Kingshu Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:49 pm

Anyway lads back to point

how would you improve the attendances.

Overall?
per country?
per team?

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:49 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:How would the advertising still be there Scarlet?

Why would EADS pay all that money to the Blues when the only TV exposure they would get would be outside of Wales, on a few seconds clip on a less watched highlight show and on a website!

Infact I'd say they'd go as far as to want 75% payment returned!

Because they would be getting exposure in Italy, Ireland and Scotland.

Are companies like Worthingtons, EADS, etc only sponosoring the regions to get adverising in Wales? Also would you not find that IRish/Scots/Italian companies would want to sponsor in Wales as that would be televised in Italy/Ireland/Scotland?

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:51 pm

Stag

Once again I'm not taking anything to the extreme, i'm not saying the Blues are wrong, I'm just saying stats aren't trust worthy as much as a car salesman is!!
You can't claim that the Blues and Rabo wouldn't dare fudge figures when the Blues have done it before and the Rabo use the Blues official figures.

by SecretFly Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:52 pm

Casartelli wrote:

'Success will bring the crowds' gets repeated often, and sounds logical, but for some reason there is no actual evidence of it. The Ospreys, 4 time league winners and by far and away the most successful 'region' rank behind the Scarlets and the Blues on the attendance figures quoted earlier in the thread.

Which attendance figures are those? The ones that are being questioned for authenticity or the ones that are being questioned for authenticity?

And of course the Scarlets and the Blues are being more heavily supported - they're the Welsh team.... Wink

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:54 pm

Of course they want welsh advertising!!! Thats why they advertise in Wales!!!

If your right why would they bother advertising at the regions, when they could get cheaper deals in Italy and Scotland?!?!?!?!

Advertising is based on numbers, you target the area you want to advertise in then set a budget per person. They have done so, if you tell them that the games are no longer televised they'll lose 100's of thousands of potential customers, that is what theyve paid for!!!

by SecretFly Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:55 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Stag

Once again I'm not taking anything to the extreme, i'm not saying the Blues are wrong, I'm just saying stats aren't trust worthy as much as a car salesman is!!
You can't claim that the Blues and Rabo wouldn't dare fudge figures when the Blues have done it before and the Rabo use the Blues official figures.

But Blues..you did say this to start the whole ball rolling:

"For all your ideas you know that 3 of the 4 regions were better supported than most teams in the rabo last season, including the HC finalists Ulster!!!

Infact it's only Leinster and Munster who beat us!"

You were in essence.......... the car salesman back there, weren't you. Claiming a 'truth' that was subsequently questioned. Don't worry though, we all do it. We have to, it's called debate.

by LordDowlais Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:57 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:Are you claiming the BBC's and S4C's budget stretches to the equivilant of 10 thousand people, per region, per home game, all season?

On modest profit margins that would be the equivilant of over 10k per region per home game

x4 = 40,000

x11 = 440,000

We are looking at a figure over 1/2 a million in reality?!

According to Roger Lewis, yes, and that is why the WRU do not want to stop it, its all about advertising as well, but for my two penneth, the regions should be using the fact that they are on the tele to sell themselves to the people watching, so that the average person looking at their tv screen starts to think, hey it looks good there I would not mind a peice of that, which for the Blues going back to the cap might do. You cannot under estemate how many people are tuning in to watch the regions on S4C and BBC Wales, and it's not just people from Wales, in the same interview he gave about how much the regions get from it I think he said there were about two hundred and fifty thousand people tuning just to watch the regions, weather that be people who just want to watch a game, or people who cannot afford to go to the game itself, or people who just love rugby around the world and tune in. Look at it this way, I cannot ever see me going to a Super 14 game, but I have watched loads of them on Sky over the last few weeks just becuase I love watching rugby, should they not show those games so that I might have actually go to Aus/New Zealand/South Africa to watch them ? And this is what it is all about, companies spend a lot of money to advertise during the commercials, god knows how much the Principality Building Society are paying to sponsor the progaramme itself, look at the audience they are getting and without the tele they wouldn't get it, would the regions get the same price or sponsers at their grounds if they were never on the tele, I doubt it very much.

LOrd - that is why I was suggesting only showing away matches and derby matches. If you show the Scarlets playing well infront of a packed RDS and the fans of both sides singing and chanting it looks good. However if you show the Scarlets playing against Leinster in a ground that has two stands closed off it doesn't look as good. I know which one would seel turning up to a regional game more. And likewise with the derby matches, they are generally packed grounds and real atmospheres.

Also seeing as away games are far harder to attend than home games it would give the regions more exposure IMO, as you will have more chances to see them (live + on TV, so pretty much all games) than you do now.

But what good would that do the regions when they cannot get any advertising at their grounds because there are no tv cameras there, most of the companies that advertise and sponser our regions are Welsh companies who want to appeal to people who are here, not to somebody in Ireland who might think, oh hang on a minute I might pop over to Newport to buy a car, no, they want to appeal to us the Welsh public and if they get their name across to a few people outside of Wales then thats a bonus, but for advertising reasons alone we need the home games on the tele, do not under estemate the power of advertising.

Re-read my original comment.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:2 - Get the RaboDirect Pro12 Broadcast partners to agree only to show games that are being played away and local derby matches. So for instance BBC 2W and S4C would not show any of the regions home games (bar derbies), but would show their away games. The 'I only watch rugby on tv' fan will not miss out on seeing rugby on tv, and may be impressed when they see a packed Thomand or RDS etc enought to turn up to their local regions games againt Munster/Leinster to see the atmospher 1st hand. The 'I support my side, but don't go as their games are all on tv' fan would be far more likely to turn up as they will not be able to see their side play that week unless they go to the ground. The 'attend all home games' fans will be rewarded with being able to see their side on tv when they are not watching them live at home. AND the public will not be seeing empty stands etc, which causes the storm in the tea cup on here.

By getting them all to show away games only (and local derbies) matches at the Liberty wold be shown on TG4, BBC Alba etc etc. So the adveritsing would still be out there. Also the advertising at the home grounds would still be on Scrum V on Sunday, on the teams websites etc too.

Scarlet, you are missing the point boy bach, for instance, why would somebody like Bridgend Ford advertise to people in Scotland and Ireland, people are not going to travel hundreds of miles to Bridgend to buy a ford, but somebody like me who is looking for a fiesta or a ka might think, I know i'll try there as it is only 45 minutes down the road, I think you are thinking of big companies like DHL or Coca Cola who just want to get their name out there, also the BBC cater for us the British public, if we wanted to watch any away games then BBC would have to by the game off whoever the broadcaster is in their respective countries, and, each region has their own budget, so BBC Wales would have to pay BBC Scotland or ALBA for the game they are airing, why would they do that when they have the same product themsleves. It would be like me paying to use your laptop to come on this site when I have my own here. Ale

by Kingshu Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:59 pm

[quote="thebluesmancometh"]

If your right why would they bother advertising at the regions, when they could get cheaper deals in Italy and Scotland?!?!?!?!
quote]

its about brand assoication, thats like asking why do Aon sponsor Man U when they could get cheaper coverage sponsoring Bolton?

Welsh/Irish/Scotish/Italian companies want to be linked with Welsh/Irish/Scotish/Italian teams, and they would like them to be successful teams

by geoff998rugby Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:00 pm

The true average crowd for Ulster last season in thr Pro12 was

8412 putting them above Blues and Ospreys.

Statsbunker = waste of space lads

by Portnoy Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:03 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:The true average crowd for Ulster last season in thr Pro12 was

8412 putting them above Blues and Ospreys.

Statsbunker = waste of space lads

Source?

by Casartelli Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:03 pm

Is there any evidence, from anywhere, like ever, that live games on TV reduces the number that actually go and watch?

Or is it just something people say? Having accepted it as a fact.

Wales 6N games are on the telly.

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:08 pm

Secret

Your right, I may have been working off false data, but my point still stands. Noone is whining about the poor state of the Ravenhill crowd yet it's about the same as all the poultry welsh crowds (dragons aside) so why all the media hype about the welsh game and not Ulsters?

Kingshu

Brand association? Really? In welsh regional rugby!!! This has nothing to do with brand association, the regions are a mess, they can't get supporters to the grounds and are in a constant state of change to try to appease the fans. What part of those brands would you want to be associated with?

Advertising on a local scale is a numbers game, and you may be right to a degree, a local company may use a professional sports outfit for a small amount of time to enlarge their image, but at the cost of what they pay, for the type of audience they are looking at would non welsh media coverage only justify that amount of money??

Would you pay £100,000 for 250000 viewership in the south wales region, on shirts, hoardings for 2 hours a week?

Then would you pay the same without the 2 hours of TV time a week? Instead a much smaller audience, non welsh audience, and a 2 minute highlight on scrum v?

by LordDowlais Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:12 pm

Casartelli wrote:Is there any evidence, from anywhere, like ever, that live games on TV reduces the number that actually go and watch?

Or is it just something people say? Having accepted it as a fact.

Wales 6N games are on the telly.

Could not agree more. clap

Perhaps we should only show Wales's away games on the tele. Rolling Eyes

by Kingshu Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:14 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Secret

Your right, I may have been working off false data, but my point still stands. Noone is whining about the poor state of the Ravenhill crowd yet it's about the same as all the poultry welsh crowds (dragons aside) so why all the media hype about the welsh game and not Ulsters?

Kingshu

Brand association? Really? In welsh regional rugby!!! This has nothing to do with brand association, the regions are a mess, they can't get supporters to the grounds and are in a constant state of change to try to appease the fans. What part of those brands would you want to be associated with?

Advertising on a local scale is a numbers game, and you may be right to a degree, a local company may use a professional sports outfit for a small amount of time to enlarge their image, but at the cost of what they pay, for the type of audience they are looking at would non welsh media coverage only justify that amount of money??

Would you pay £100,000 for 250000 viewership in the south wales region, on shirts, hoardings for 2 hours a week?

Then would you pay the same without the 2 hours of TV time a week? Instead a much smaller audience, non welsh audience, and a 2 minute highlight on scrum v?

Do as the article suggests, what to you propose to increase attendance, at the regions, Ulster as well, and any other team in the Pro 12?

by geoff998rugby Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:17 pm

Portnoy wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:The true average crowd for Ulster last season in thr Pro12 was

8412 putting them above Blues and Ospreys.

Statsbunker = waste of space lads

Source?

Worked out using the stats on the Ulster official Website and the stats on the official Pro12 website.

Neither mentions the last home game against Leinster which was a sell out - I know this for a fact.
My suspicion is we let in more than we should and never official divulged - I have gone with 12200

by gowales Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:20 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Secret

Your right, I may have been working off false data, but my point still stands. Noone is whining about the poor state of the Ravenhill crowd yet it's about the same as all the poultry welsh crowds (dragons aside) so why all the media hype about the welsh game and not Ulsters?

Probably because Ulster isn't really a hot bead of rugby and isn't touted as being the national sport of Northern Ireland

by SecretFly Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:20 pm

Casartelli wrote:Is there any evidence, from anywhere, like ever, that live games on TV reduces the number that actually go and watch?

Or is it just something people say? Having accepted it as a fact.

Wales 6N games are on the telly.

Great point. Because of my position in the country and work/family committments, I can't go to Leinster games......... but I watch on TV. Is there always a seat empty where I would have been sitting in a perfect world? No, some big fat guy is always in it! (I know where you live BTW, I will find you and I will................)

Cutting TV won't force people to attend games who still won't be in the position, for whatever life reasons they have, to attend. If you can't, you can't. Plus - if we're told that certain people can't afford to go to games and therefore choose to watch them on TV, it's not really a solution to hard strapped people to suggest "we're going to bloody well force you to come to the games, and to hell with your kid's school books and the mortgage or rental payments!."

Not a neat trick for increasing the fan base.... Sad

by LordDowlais Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:20 pm

I will apologise for going off subject on this thread by the way, I just got caught up in the fact that somebody said that tele was at fault for the small crowds at the regions when I diagree whole heartedly. Hug

But to get back on topic, this generation is lost to regional rugby, we must work on the younger generation, get them past their local loyalties and in about 5 or 10 years I bet we will see full grounds for which ever regions we might have by then.

by gowales Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:22 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Casartelli wrote:Is there any evidence, from anywhere, like ever, that live games on TV reduces the number that actually go and watch?

Or is it just something people say? Having accepted it as a fact.

Wales 6N games are on the telly.

Could not agree more.

Perhaps we should only show Wales's away games on the tele.

It works well in American sports. But everything there is on a much bigger scale so it's hard to compare.

Wales 6n games are all on the telly because they are the National team. The regions aren't so that isn't relevant really.

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:23 pm

Glad you asked...

Firstly I would introduce a seasonal derby double header at the MS. Show those who go to see Wales that the regions are the same product. The Uni game tends to get some big hype these days, a regional double header would be fantastic, and would be supported by 40k plus IMO.

Secondly I'd get rid of all this free ticket giveaway atmosphere the regions have produced in their desperation for numbers, price tickets accordingly in the first place! This is 2 hours of rugby, not a night at the opera!

Thirdly I'd get the game times changed to more appropriate for fans.
Loads of friday night games help noone, 1 game on a friday, 1 on a sunday and 4 on a saturday is perfect. Your team then only has to worry about the pesky sunday game 1 or 2 times a year, and people wouldnt be fighting rush hour traffic, parking problems on friday nights in the cities.

Infact there is no competition on a saturday night at 8pm (xfactor aside) why not have a 'prime time' slot for the highlighted game of the weak, create a bit of buzz!!!

That'd be how I started anyway

by geoff998rugby Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:26 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Secret

Your right, I may have been working off false data, but my point still stands. Noone is whining about the poor state of the Ravenhill crowd yet it's about the same as all the poultry welsh crowds (dragons aside) so why all the media hype about the welsh game and not Ulsters?

Which by using ther correct figures I have shown is incorrect Ulster average crowds were in the mid 8000's not the mid 7000's.

Given the increase in ST's and given the crowds so far, including friendlies the Ulster average for the Pro12 only will be in the mid 9000's - how will the Welsh teams shape up?

One thing that could make this totally bogus is if Ospreys count all those free STs they handed out - that would make their crowd figures meaningless - someone who didn't pay and didn't turn up gets counted as attending Headscratch

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:27 pm

Lord

So basically what your saying is, and I know the regions owners agree with you...

'F**K the fans who have any knowledge of the good old club game, and focus on their kids because we want to outbreed the contraversy of the change!!'

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:29 pm

Lord Dowlais - nobody blamed the tv at all, what was said was it could be used in a manner that it shown the regions and rugby matches in general as a good place to go but showing matches that have should have full stadia, and then that may tempt people to go.

The youth are most certainly the answer, my generation can hardly remember pre-regional rugby, but hte generation after me, who are getting to be at paying adult age, will not remember pre-regional at all. They are buying into regionalism, and the majority who say theya re not are actually old grumpy gits.

Bluesman - if I could find my figures i posted else where (which could be ropey) but in general since regionalsim the average attendances and season ticket sales have gone up and up, season upon season. The problem we have is that people seem to believe what they read in the paper, what other muppets on here say, and what the pundits say on the tv. Personal opinion expecting theregions to be pulling the same attendances, and winning the same amount of silverware as the provinces is like expecting my two year old girl to run as fast as usain bolt. She may get there by the time she is that age, but htere is a hell of a way to go before that.

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:30 pm

geoff

We'll find out this friday, back at the CAP the blues may well sell out week in week out (god I hope so) and avergae near 10k plus!!

The Scarlets averaged around 9k and growing (depending whos stats you don't believe)

And the O's have offered a wonder deal to fans, so in reality Ulster falling (or not falling) to around 6th in terms of fan base is a real possibility.

by BoyneRFC Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:30 pm

But to get back on topic, this generation is lost to regional rugby

Dowlais, you really must think I am disagreeing with you for the sake of it. I am not. I just think that this is another excuse.

15 years ago (even 10), anyway, just before the league was set up (shock upcoming), regional or provincial rugby didnt really exist in Ireland either.

I think the impression out there is that provincial rugby was alive and kicking back in the 60's. It wasn't.

Interpros were played quite usually on from of 3 men and their dog. As every Irish poster and anyone in the know will attest to.

by gowales Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:32 pm

It's much easier to relate to real traditional Irish provinces than the Welsh super clubs (as they were first created) though, wouldn't you say?

by Casartelli Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:32 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Lord

So basically what your saying is, and I know the regions owners agree with you...

'F**K the fans who have any knowledge of the good old club game, and focus on their kids because we want to outbreed the contraversy of the change!!'

Funny.

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:33 pm

SS

I agree with you totally, but didn't the regions set a goal of HC success within 10 years? I personally think they are as far away from HC success as they have ever been, crowds or not!

It is depressing though, I barely remember the club game, but what I do was awesome, and now the regions and WRU have basically said that I'm not important and the generation below me is who the club want!

I am only in my 20's and Ive been abandoned by regional rugby!!

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:35 pm

Portnoy wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:The true average crowd for Ulster last season in thr Pro12 was

8412 putting them above Blues and Ospreys.

Statsbunker = waste of space lads

Source?

http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=366&statType=home_Att - a quick glance will tell you they're incomplete, no data for a couple of teams and only 2 matches for several others

In fairness they have fixed the old error in the 2011 Super XV - last year when I looked at that table they'd credited the Stormers with having a 130,000 gate (I even posted it on a thread at the time). Not bad for a 30,000 seat stadium

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:37 pm

BoyneRFC wrote:
But to get back on topic, this generation is lost to regional rugby

Dowlais, you really must think I am disagreeing with you for the sake of it. I am not. I just think that this is another excuse.

15 years ago (even 10), anyway, just before the league was set up (shock upcoming), regional or provincial rugby didnt really exist in Ireland either.

I think the impression out there is that provincial rugby was alive and kicking back in the 60's. It wasn't.

Interpros were played quite usually on from of 3 men and their dog. As every Irish poster and anyone in the know will attest to.

So there were no provincial sides playing in top flight competitions prior to 03-04 season?

Can you explain these

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/leinster_rugby.php?section=3

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/munster_rugby.php?section=3

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/ulster_rugby.php?section=3

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/connacht.php?section=3

Or possibly these

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/table.php?includeref=2272&season=2001-2002

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/table.php?includeref=2272&season=2002-2003

The provinces did have a head start!

by geoff998rugby Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:38 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:geoff

We'll find out this friday, back at the CAP the blues may well sell out week in week out (god I hope so) and avergae near 10k plus!!

The Scarlets averaged around 9k and growing (depending whos stats you don't believe)

And the O's have offered a wonder deal to fans, so in reality Ulster falling (or not falling) to around 6th in terms of fan base is a real possibility.

IF the Welsh teams only count those who actually attend I think there is no way Ulster will below Cardiff or Ospreys. They would have to average around 10000 each - that is a leap too far.

I do thing Blues will improve, Ospreys even with another 2000 will still be behind Scarlets, Ulster and Blues.
Anyway for 2014-15 we will have finished redevelopment which will mean the Munster and Leisnter games getting around 15000 and probably boosting the average past the 10000 mark and maybe beyond.

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:43 pm

Really?

Because the Blues played back at the CAP twice last season and both were sell outs.

Predicted sellout this friday for Edinburgh to make 3 in a row. 11k at present to be added to by the end of year.

Your predictions are a little ropy, 10k in 2 years possibly, 9k this season possibly.

I'm willing to have a little bet with you that both the Blues and O's publish higher average Rabo attendances than Ulster this season, loser buys the winner a pint? I'm planning on being at Ravenhill last game of the season!

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:46 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Really?

Because the Blues played back at the CAP twice last season and both were sell outs.

Predicted sellout this friday for Edinburgh to make 3 in a row. 11k at present to be added to by the end of year.

Your predictions are a little ropy, 10k in 2 years possibly, 9k this season possibly.

I'm willing to have a little bet with you that both the Blues and O's publish higher average Rabo attendances than Ulster this season, loser buys the winner a pint? I'm planning on being at Ravenhill last game of the season!

Cue the arguement starting over again.

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