The Official *England to World Twenty-20 Glory* Thread

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

"What is our aim?... Victory... Victory at all costs. Victory in spite of all terror. Victory, however long and hard the road may be. For without victory, there is no survival."
Sir Winston Churchill

So in just over 2 weeks time, on Friday September 21, England will begin their quest to defend their World T20 Crown in Sri Lanka, just 2 years after winning the trophy in the Caribbean.

"This England never did, nor never shall, Lie at the proud foot of a conqueror."
William Shakespeare

The preparations will begin with a 3 match T20 Series at home to the Saffers, win that series and England will become the No.1 T20 Side in the World. From there, England will fly off to Sri Lanka and have 2 warm-up games against Australia and Pakistan in Colombo.

"Let not England forget her precedence of teaching nations how to live."
John Milton

After that, the tournament will finally begin. In England's pool are Afghanistan and India. Afghanistan will be mercilessly thrashed, and India will be beaten soundly to once again prove that they and the IPL are overrated.

"Only the Englishman is the pinnacle of perfection and nature’s masterpiece."
Riem

Then the Super Eight phase will start. If it goes the way it should, the West Indies (one man team), South Africa (never good at tournaments or T20s) and New Zealand (whipping boys) will all be in the Super Eight Group with England. Of course, none of them will be able to compete with the might of England and will be brushed aside.

"The world still consists of two clearly divided groups; the English and the foreigners. One group consists of less than 50 million people; the other of 3,950 million people. The latter group does not really count."
George Mikes

Then a probable semi-final against the Aussies, a good test before the Final but, ultimately, an England win. England will then march into the final at Colombo - I think against the Sri Lankans but never rule out Pakistan - and give a dominant display to cement England's back-to-back titles. And remember lads:

"England expects that every man will do his duty."
Lord Admiral Horatio Nelson

[jimbohammers]

What was the point in the warm up games? Briggs got 3 wickets in each match, opening the bowling

[Mike Selig]

Mike, are you Eoin Morgan?

Well, I'm apparently an Irish fan on the 606 Superbru thing, so who knows?

I am a big Eoin Morgan fan, and have never made any secret of the fact. Part of this is my natural wish to see a player produced from an associate nation become a successful player at the highest level (Morgan has managed that in 2 out of 3 formats) - unlike someone like Geraint Jones, Morgan learnt most of his cricket in Ireland. Part of it is I know a few guys who've played against him, and speak highly of him. The most part though is cos when he's on song he's really really exciting and good to watch; of all the things I've seen on a cricket field, his reverse straight drive over short 3rd man off Ravi Rampaul (87 mph) at the previous T20 tournament is the most extraordinary.

For the rest, I agree almost entirely with JD's post below. I also thought Buttler looked England's most accomplished player of spin in the recent calamity, albeit briefly.

[ShankyCricket]

Erm, Morgan was the best England batsman against South Africa in the ODIs? And scored 30 off 16 balls (which is a good T20 effort given he came in with 7 overs remaining and got out with only 1 remaining) against Australia in the warm-up. 20ish against the West Indies in the one ODI he batted in. He also had a terrific ODI series against Australia, IIRC didn't get out, smashed 89 off 63 (?) balls in one of the games, and 40 not out to see England home (admitedly from an already very strong position) in another.

It is simply not true to say he hasn't performed in the last 12 months in the shorter formats. He had a horror tour of the UAE but even then his ODI scores don't make that bad reading (although he was very scratchy). Since then he's been good.

It's also unfair to suggest that he was constantly coming in in good situations against Pakistan in 2010. England's top order (mainly the openers and Pietersen) often struggled in that series and Morgan's century came with England under pressure.

Taylor is a poor player of spin. Say what you like about Morgan (and I disagree with most of it) but he has the ability to take the game away from the spinners. Taylor's main weakness is knocking the ball around against spinners, it's why ultimately everyone thinks he'll be a top order rather than a middle order player.

On non turning pitches. In the SC? An average of 14 in 18 IPL matches....

[Mike Selig]

Erm, Morgan was the best England batsman against South Africa in the ODIs? And scored 30 off 16 balls (which is a good T20 effort given he came in with 7 overs remaining and got out with only 1 remaining) against Australia in the warm-up. 20ish against the West Indies in the one ODI he batted in. He also had a terrific ODI series against Australia, IIRC didn't get out, smashed 89 off 63 (?) balls in one of the games, and 40 not out to see England home (admitedly from an already very strong position) in another.

It is simply not true to say he hasn't performed in the last 12 months in the shorter formats. He had a horror tour of the UAE but even then his ODI scores don't make that bad reading (although he was very scratchy). Since then he's been good.

It's also unfair to suggest that he was constantly coming in in good situations against Pakistan in 2010. England's top order (mainly the openers and Pietersen) often struggled in that series and Morgan's century came with England under pressure.

Taylor is a poor player of spin. Say what you like about Morgan (and I disagree with most of it) but he has the ability to take the game away from the spinners. Taylor's main weakness is knocking the ball around against spinners, it's why ultimately everyone thinks he'll be a top order rather than a middle order player.

On non turning pitches. In the SC? An average of 14 in 18 IPL matches....

How many games as an opener? What SR?

[ShankyCricket]

Erm, Morgan was the best England batsman against South Africa in the ODIs? And scored 30 off 16 balls (which is a good T20 effort given he came in with 7 overs remaining and got out with only 1 remaining) against Australia in the warm-up. 20ish against the West Indies in the one ODI he batted in. He also had a terrific ODI series against Australia, IIRC didn't get out, smashed 89 off 63 (?) balls in one of the games, and 40 not out to see England home (admitedly from an already very strong position) in another.

It is simply not true to say he hasn't performed in the last 12 months in the shorter formats. He had a horror tour of the UAE but even then his ODI scores don't make that bad reading (although he was very scratchy). Since then he's been good.

It's also unfair to suggest that he was constantly coming in in good situations against Pakistan in 2010. England's top order (mainly the openers and Pietersen) often struggled in that series and Morgan's century came with England under pressure.

Taylor is a poor player of spin. Say what you like about Morgan (and I disagree with most of it) but he has the ability to take the game away from the spinners. Taylor's main weakness is knocking the ball around against spinners, it's why ultimately everyone thinks he'll be a top order rather than a middle order player.

On non turning pitches. In the SC? An average of 14 in 18 IPL matches....

How many games as an opener? What SR?

And how does opening the innings preclude him from getting out to spin?

[msp83]

I don't think Morgan be considered a limited over specialist. He's a special player who can of course cut it at the highest level in the longer format as well. But I do have my strong doubts about his ability at this stage of his career to stick around against good spinners on a turning tracks.
That doesn't, on its own, make him a bad test player. Many good batsmen have struggled against quality spin in helpful conditions.

[Mike Selig]

It doesn't, but it makes it less likely.

Statistics are a helpful guide, but nothing more. Having a poor record in a domestic T20 competition playing in a side which has often showed muddled selection policy doesn't mean he can't take spinners apart.

I may as well quote his century scored in Bangladesh. Every bit as relevant.

[Fists of Fury]

Morgan has failed to pass 27 in any of his last 9 T20 innings...that's a damning statistic.

[Mike Selig]

Apart from the warm-up against Australia?

[VTR]

I'd love Morgan to come good in Tests but can't see it. Its a shame as after that first innings vs Pakistan in 2010 it looked like he'd made the transition. He then did nothing for the rest of the series and only has a couple of knocks against a very poor Indian bowling side under no pressure to show for it since. Wasn't he dropped 3 or 4 times getting to that hundred vs India as well?

[Mike Selig]

He's worked quite hard on his game since then though. He's got rid of his huge duck and back-foot twirl in his set-up, and his hands are coming through straighter.

I'm not saying he's definitely worth another shot, but he might be.

He's also a brilliant fielder.

Fists, I get that in recent T20s he hasn't made much of an impact, but he's still amongst England's best players in that format surely?

[Fists of Fury]

He is indeed, Mike, and is a fine addition to any side when at his best. The worrying thing of late is that those performances are few and far between. Still worthy of a spot, granted, but definitely needs to stand up and be counted in the Super Eights now.

My statistic above wasn't referring to warm-ups, for clarity.

[Duty281]

West Indies tomorrow then for England. I think England will carry the day, although I'm probably the only one on this forum - the pessimism is revolting. I think England's bowling will be too strong for the Windies and the wicket of Gayle will be key. Batting-wise, England should be able to build up their confidence against an attack weaker than India's tomorrow, and then further build that confidence against the Kiwis on Saturday. The acid test will be against Sri Lanka, that should show us how far England can go in this tournament. Personally, I think England can still go all the way and will go all the way.

[Shelsey93]

West Indies tomorrow then for England. I think England will carry the day, although I'm probably the only one on this forum - the pessimism is revolting. I think England's bowling will be too strong for the Windies and the wicket of Gayle will be key. Batting-wise, England should be able to build up their confidence against an attack weaker than India's tomorrow, and then further build that confidence against the Kiwis on Saturday. The acid test will be against Sri Lanka, that should show us how far England can go in this tournament. Personally, I think England can still go all the way and will go all the way.

Not the only one to think we'll beat WI and NZ.

I personally have us down for a SF exit, but who knows.

[Mike Selig]

I think England, the West Indies and Sri Lanka are all fairly well matched. I would expect England to win one of those, which should be enough to get them to the semi-finals. From then on it's anybody's game.

I expect the Bresnan experiment to be short lived, particularly as Gayle took him to pieces somewhat in England. Expect Patel to be back, and his batting could be useful also.

England's bowling should have learnt the lessons from the India game: more slower balls cut into the pitch. Dernbach seems to be wary of overbowling his slower ball - perhaps he doesn't want players to get used to it before the crunch matches?

Morgan is really a key player - if he can find his destructive touch then England can beat anyone.

[Hibbz]

West Indies tomorrow then for England. I think England will carry the day, although I'm probably the only one on this forum - the pessimism is revolting. I think England's bowling will be too strong for the Windies and the wicket of Gayle will be key. Batting-wise, England should be able to build up their confidence against an attack weaker than India's tomorrow, and then further build that confidence against the Kiwis on Saturday. The acid test will be against Sri Lanka, that should show us how far England can go in this tournament. Personally, I think England can still go all the way and will go all the way.

You are aware that you don't have to be English/support England to post on this forum aren't you?

[Duty281]

West Indies tomorrow then for England. I think England will carry the day, although I'm probably the only one on this forum - the pessimism is revolting. I think England's bowling will be too strong for the Windies and the wicket of Gayle will be key. Batting-wise, England should be able to build up their confidence against an attack weaker than India's tomorrow, and then further build that confidence against the Kiwis on Saturday. The acid test will be against Sri Lanka, that should show us how far England can go in this tournament. Personally, I think England can still go all the way and will go all the way.

You are aware that you don't have to be English/support England to post on this forum aren't you?

I am, but several English posters who support England (or at least say they do) now believe England don't have a hope.

[mystiroakey]

"You are aware that you don't have to be English/support England to post on this forum aren't you?"

Yeah you can even support germany if you want Hibbz.

[mystiroakey]

BTW Hibbz to be fair to duty- this is an England centric thread!!

[Duty281]

Sadly England left themselves with too much to do. 179 was just over par from the Windies, a host of lucky edges didn't help England and nor did Dernbach's final over. Then England made a shocking start and it took too long to get going. 2 games to save our World Champions status then.

[Mike Selig]

I think 180 was very gettable with this West Indian attack. Starting at 0/2 was the main problem.

In fact the opening partnership is a problem.

Plenty of positives with the way Morgan and Hales batted, and the fight shown, and the improved fielding performance.

England now playing do or die cricket.

[Duty281]

England's score after the first over:

0/1 v Afghanistan
2/1 v India
0/2 v West Indies

Morgan and Hales to open next game? Kieswetter at 3 and Wright at 4?

[msp83]

Morgan has to stay at 4 or 5. Kieswetter scored a few against India, and Hales too is among the runs. I don't see England changing the order at the top. But they do have a problem there. All that they can do at this stage is that both would be among the runs in the remaining matches, and Luke Wright also score a few at 3. Perhaps Wright can be moved down the order with Morgan coming in at 3?

[Gregers]

I wouldn't move Wright, he performs best when he knows what his role is. Although why we took Craig and not Matty P is beyond me

[Duty281]

Do or die time now. Defeat against the Kiwis tomorrow and England's World Cup is over with a dead rubber against Sri Lanka to come. But an England win, and the Champions will be back on track. It'll be a tough test - NZ pushed Sri Lanka all the way - but myself and many other people will be backing England to win tomorrow so: Come on England!

The Knights of the Round Table, the Crusaders... these young men, going forth every morn to guard their native land and all that we stand for, holding in their hands these instruments of colossal and shattering power, of whom it may be said that:

Every morn brought forth a noble chance
And every chance brought forth a noble knight.
Sir Winston Churchill

But who will be England's noble knight riding to the rescue tomorrow?

[JDizzle]

Actually, if my maths is right, we can still go through if we lose to NZ tomorrow. If WI beat SL and then WI beat NZ as well, and if we lose to NZ and then beat SL then I think three of the teams will be on 2 points (Eng, NZ, SL) and we can still go through on NRR.

Probably best we don't try and get through that way though...

[Pal Joey]

Difficult one, duty.

You have the players to do the job but need to get off to a better start against NZ. Dominate early and either get regular wickets or score at a decent rate and set a better run score next time round. No need to panic yet.

If ye shall fail though do not worry...

The "Nearly written-off-for-no-good Antipodean Lost Clan" shall keep the flame alive and in safe keeping until things get better for ye.

After which time, we shall await your return to the Fold.

(We will soon be holding all 3 Maces and all of the Flags of the Continents in all formats of the game.)

[KP_fan]

Well it should be a balanced game tomorrow on skills....NZ simply have more experience in handling T20 situations because McCullum, Taylor, Franklin and Vettori are alll IPL regulars...and have been much more evolved.

Eng's bolwing is decidedly better......and must really punch at full weight tomorrow

[Mike Selig]

I wonder whether England should bite the bullet and pick Briggs over Patel today. It's a do or die situation, and they have little to lose. Whilst I understand the value of batting deep, the truth is this T20 has all been about the top order, and if your number 7 is coming in with 5 or more overs to go, you're not going to win many matches, with the obvious exception of Mike Hussey's effort against Pakistan notwithstanding. With that in mind, someone like Broad or Swann are capable of smashing a few if they come in in the last couple of overs.

I also wonder whether Morgan shouldn't move up the order. Accusations have been made that Australia and Sri Lanka are top heavy sides, but they are doing better than the arguably more balanced line-ups of India and South Africa. Morgan is obviously the best T20 batsman in England's squad, so although he is possibly better suited to and more comfortable coming in as a finisher, it may be better for England to get him in early, give him the same licence and get off to a good start.

[msp83]

Should England give Lumb a chance at top in place of Kieswetter? Bairstow or Buttler could take the gloves.

[damngoodOvalball]

Does anyone have a link for a live feed of the eng NZ game?
Cheers

[Duty281]

Lovely confident display from England. There were 3 noble knights riding to the rescue - Swann with his controlled 4 overs, Finn with a wonderful 3/16 but the MOTM has to go to Luke Wright for his wonderful innings of 76. The World Cup is back on track now for England - victory over Sri Lanka should mean progress to the Semi-Finals but it will be a very tough game.

[Duty281]

Time for another quote, I think, this one from the greatest playwright who ever lived:

This royal throne of kings, this sceptered isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in a silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
William Shakespeare

[Mike Selig]

England did pick Briggs.

And Morgan came in earlier than last time.

Another do or die match against Sri Lanka coming up, with NRR possible playing a part...

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

West Indies' NRR is poor. So if England beat SL they're probably though. If they lose and NZ win the NRRs could be very close.

[Duty281]

With domineering hand she moves the turning wheel,
Like currents in a treacherous bay swept to and fro:
Her ruthless will has just deposed once fearful kings
While trustless still, from low she lifts a conquered head;
No cries of misery she hears, no tears she heeds,
But steely hearted laughs at groans her deeds have wrung.
Such is a game she plays, and so she tests her strength;
Of mighty power she makes parade when one short hour
Sees happiness from utter desolation grow.
William Shakespeare on Fate.

Might fate just be turning England's way?

[liverbnz]

If reports are true and Keiswetter is dropped who will be keeping wicket today? Bairstow?

[Fists of Fury]

Big mistake in my view.

Bairstow is our safest pair of hands in the deep.

Bairstow isn't too impressive as a keeper.

Is Lumb really likely to be any more successful with the bat than Kieswetter?

No, I think I'd move Wright up to open, play Morgan at 3 and slot Kieswetter in at 6. Changing wicketkeeper and opener midway through a tournament, and ahead of a crucial game, is not wise in my opinion.

This is where the absence of Pietersen really hurts us. If he were playing we would have no such issues at the top of the order.

[Duty281]

Sadly, the bowlers one again left the batsmen with too much to do. Same as India, same as West Indies. I really cannot fathom why Dernbach was brought back but there we are. The batsmen put up a fight, well done to Samit and Swann, and we ended up 19 runs short. We never really got going in this tournament and we'll limp out meekly. I'll back Sri Lanka to win the whole thing now. Poor show England, roll on proper cricket in November.

[DouglasJardinesbox]

Playing Bopara today has to be one of the worst selection decisions in the history of international tournaments. Who ever it was should be fired...

[msp83]

Think Andy Flower's shel life as a coach is almost up.

[newballs]

Some very strange decisions by England to say the least:

dropping Kieswetter to let a very part-time keeper have a go. Could have kept him in and played him at no. 6 instead of Ravi

-playing Bopara who was about as likely to score runs as I would have been given his current form and I bat 10 or 11 in a social team (unless he was in for his bowling)

- recalling Dernbach when his death bowling so far this tournament has been so poor

The only one that came off (and actually made sense) was Patel - and he should't have been left out in the first place.

[msp83]

Will the KP contract declaration come in soon? They seemingly were waiting for England to come back from Lanka?
No World T-20I glory for England this time round, but they can now focus on putting an end to a rather inglorious saga that went on too long and play their best side.

[Mad for Chelsea]

simply put, the selections didn't come off, there was no reason to pick Dernbach after the previous game, and little more to pick Patel (OK so he batted well, but really the bowlers lost us this one).

In the three games we lost the bowlers just didn't perform well enough. Dernbach I still think has a future as an international bowler (in T20s) but he just didn't perform here, and shouldn't really have been selected for today. Briggs having starred in the warm-ups only played once (and though he got tonked in his final over didn't do badly otherwise at all).

I don't mind Kieswetter being dropped, he looked desperately short on form with the bat and his glovework isn't good enough that he should keep his spot on it alone. But you got the feeling Bopara was picked for his bowling alone, which is IMO completely wrong.

Generally a pretty poor tournament if we're honest, didn't do ourselves justice at all.

[mystiroakey]

That was pretty brutal- tbh. We wernt at the races. Our starts were something of a disastor.

Not sure i understand why we batted last today. I would put more faith in the bowlers coming good under pressure over our batters. The bowlers are the players that have contributed to our success over recent years and i would have put the onus on them..

Well done SL - I hope you go on and win.

[msp83]

MFC I don't think Samit Patel was as bad with the ball in previous matches as has been made out over here. OK he went for 38 against the WI in his 4 overs, but 19 of those came in one over against, well a certain Christopher Henry Gayle who has a history of ripping more accomplished bowlers apart. Brigg's against NZ wasn't much better, certainly on the lines of some of the expectations here, 36 in 4 isn't much from 38 in 4. And of course Samit could bat a bit. I was a bit surprised to see him at 4 although there could be an interesting logic to it. He has scored runs against spinners in the sub-continent, something not many others in that lineup has done in recent times.
But Dernbach and Bopara were rather ludicrous selections. We all know Bopara has been struggling to put bat to ball in recent times, and he's nowhere good enough to be picked alone for his bowling. Kieswetter was opening, Wright did a decent job at 3 in a couple of matches. They had a backup opener in Michael Lumb, yet they chose to mess up with the entire batting lineup.
Dernbach? I really couldn't understand all the hype over Dernbach as a death bowler. He was smashed out of town by MS Dhoni and co in the ODI series home and away, and gave away plenty during end overs most of the time since then. Bresnan may have lost a bit of nip, but he still is a much better bet than Dernbach is and he had done nothing wrong in the previous match to be dropped for Dernbach.

[KP_fan]

Will Flower take Moral responsibility of the debacle ? The shocking fall of the reigning world champions...dismissed for 80 against India.
Did a happy dressing room help ?

Flower should quit taking the responsibility of the SA and now world cup debacles.

[msp83]

Duncan Fletcher or Andy Flower, who would you rate as the better coach?

[mystiroakey]

Happy dressing rooms are a fallacy... when you lose its not happy...

[guildfordbat]

MFC I don't think Samit Patel was as bad with the ball in previous matches as has been made out over here. OK he went for 38 against the WI in his 4 overs, but 19 of those came in one over against, well a certain Christopher Henry Gayle who has a history of ripping more accomplished bowlers apart. Brigg's against NZ wasn't much better, certainly on the lines of some of the expectations here, 36 in 4 isn't much from 38 in 4. And of course Samit could bat a bit. I was a bit surprised to see him at 4 although there could be an interesting logic to it. He has scored runs against spinners in the sub-continent, something not many others in that lineup has done in recent times.
But Dernbach and Bopara were rather ludicrous selections. We all know Bopara has been struggling to put bat to ball in recent times, and he's nowhere good enough to be picked alone for his bowling. Kieswetter was opening, Wright did a decent job at 3 in a couple of matches. They had a backup opener in Michael Lumb, yet they chose to mess up with the entire batting lineup.
Dernbach? I really couldn't understand all the hype over Dernbach as a death bowler. He was smashed out of town by MS Dhoni and co in the ODI series home and away, and gave away plenty during end overs most of the time since then. Bresnan may have lost a bit of nip, but he still is a much better bet than Dernbach is and he had done nothing wrong in the previous match to be dropped for Dernbach.

Msp - we haven't agreed too much in recent times so I thought it only fair to flag that I very much go along with this post and feel your comments are very valid.

I'm on record as being a supporter of Patel whilst recognising limitations. You make a good point about 'more accomplished bowlers' becoming unstuck against Gayle. Should he have been bowling then? Possibly a more experienced captain might have decided otherwise [that's a plug for my recent post on the 'Live Matches Discussion' thread ]. Briggs only brings to the party potential with the ball and - unlike Patel - very little with the bat.

Bopara? A batsman who can bowl a couple of tidy overs as a sixth bowler is a valuable asset. However, it's a breach of the Trade Descriptions Act if he's not a batsman. As regards his batting day job, Bopara sadly remains unfit for purpose.

Dernbach can be very effective on his day but as others - in particular, the Corporal with his 25% x 4 post - have said that's not often enough. He's a wildcard and so too unreliable and expensive a risk.

As for Lumb, I hope he got the Air Miles!

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