Berto V Ortiz

What a fight. For anyone who didn't catch it, here is a link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITM-EUbcSqI

Bellz - you're a superstar.

What a fight that was.

Thanks very much for the link, Bellz.

No worries guys. Saw that someone had uploaded it to youtube and I just had to share it! Fight of the year candidate for sure!

According to Ringside last week they are showing highlights of this on the show Thursday, given it was an excellent fight hopefully they will show a good chunk of it.

The same user on youtube has the Lopez fight last night uploaded.

Cheers caught the juma fight off that link too.

Berto = all hype.

Ortiz fought a good fight - time to rematch Maidana and box his head off.

Just like Jeff Lacy, Berto hadn't beat anybody of note.

Congrats Ortiz.

jimdig wrote:Cheers caught the juma fight off that link too.

There's a blast from the past !

Welcome aboard, jimdig. Glad you made it over.

I was expecting Ortiz to win so I can't say the result was a surprise.

Personally, I've never really been sold on Berto and saw him as an ordinary boxer being undeservedly hyped up by HBO.

He's a good athlete who's quick and powerful but has a poor defence, no jab and average overall ability.

Prior to this fight, the only solid opponent he faced was Luis Collazo and I thought he was fortunate to get the decision that night.

Its onwards and upwards for Ortiz. Impressive display from the likeable Californian.

Thanks windy, It took me a while to track you guys down.

I'm suprised Otiz won was never sold on Berto or Ortiz for that matter but Ortiz is a very likeable fighter so I'm glad he won. Would like to see a rematch with Maidana but at WW. Ortiz wasn't impressive against Peterson at LWW so maybe his is a WW.

hitmansam wrote:Just like Jeff Lacy, Berto hadn't beat anybody of note.

Cheers for that hitmansam.

Well done for managing to slip a Jeff Lacy reference into an otherwise entirely unrelated post.

Great fight. Similarly with Khan, I imagine Ortiz had difficulty making light welterweight hence his tiring against Maidana and Peterson. He has an awful lot of talent and is very marketable. I see interesting match-ups in the future between him and Khan.

Also look for Berto to be a very legit opponent for you know who all of a sudden.

Ortiz will be looking for a pretty straight forward first defence wouldn't be suprised to see him take on Malignaggi and then look for someone to step up from LWW and if he can see of them then go looking for FMJ or Pac.

prettyboy1304 wrote:Ortiz will be looking for a pretty straight forward first defence wouldn't be suprised to see him take on Malignaggi and then look for someone to step up from LWW and if he can see of them then go looking for FMJ or Pac.

Yep. He's young and marketable. He will get a gimme defence against someone like Malinaggi or even rematch Peterson/Maidana at WW.

Given his size against Berto, what on earth was he doing at LWW? He can make LMW easily.

He started at that weight and think he seen the talent at LWW and thought their was more chance of big fights at that weight than WW because people were so caught up on FMJ and Pac.

prettyboy1304 wrote:He started at that weight and think he seen the talent at LWW and thought their was more chance of big fights at that weight than WW because people were so caught up on FMJ and Pac.

Probably. Just goes to show what weight cutting can do.

azania wrote:

prettyboy1304 wrote:He started at that weight and think he seen the talent at LWW and thought their was more chance of big fights at that weight than WW because people were so caught up on FMJ and Pac.

Probably. Just goes to show what weight cutting can do.

I had read before that he was really draining himself to make 140lbs which is a shame and could have been what costed him against Maidana.

prettyboy1304 wrote:

azania wrote:

prettyboy1304 wrote:He started at that weight and think he seen the talent at LWW and thought their was more chance of big fights at that weight than WW because people were so caught up on FMJ and Pac.

Probably. Just goes to show what weight cutting can do.

I had read before that he was really draining himself to make 140lbs which is a shame and could have been what costed him against Maidana.

He was winning the fight against Maidana and then his legs went. Apparently he weighed in at 161 for the fight yesterday. Crazy. Similarly Morales was winning his second fight against Pac then his legs also went. Asking fighters to come in light is dangerous and a high risk strategy.

Could have his foot in the door for a fight against Pacquiao after that.

manos de piedra wrote:Could have his foot in the door for a fight against Pacquiao after that.

Boxing politics may get in the way. GBP and TR dont see eye to eye.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:Could have his foot in the door for a fight against Pacquiao after that.

Boxing politics may get in the way. GBP and TR dont see eye to eye.

True unfortunately, but Paquiao is running out of opponents. At some point he will have exhausted TR of all options.

Ortiz reputation will be big after that and people love to see him fight.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:Could have his foot in the door for a fight against Pacquiao after that.

Boxing politics may get in the way. GBP and TR dont see eye to eye.

True unfortunately, but Paquiao is running out of opponents. At some point he will have exhausted TR of all options.

Ortiz reputation will be big after that and people love to see him fight.

Too risky for Pac imo. Especially with a fight with Floyd still to be made. Arum will not risk his cash cow with a live opponent until the fight with floyd is either dead and buried or made.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:Could have his foot in the door for a fight against Pacquiao after that.

Boxing politics may get in the way. GBP and TR dont see eye to eye.

True unfortunately, but Paquiao is running out of opponents. At some point he will have exhausted TR of all options.

Ortiz reputation will be big after that and people love to see him fight.

Think Bradley might be the more likely option than Pac. Bradley has already fought at WW and has made it clear he wants to step up.

I dont know if Id agree with Ortiz being too high risk. I dont think hes any more high risk than Cotto or Margarito.

Whats really in the division for either at the moment?

Ortiz may try and tempt Maidana up for a rematch, someone like Judah might be a possibility. But there arent a great many exciting options.

manos de piedra wrote:I dont know if Id agree with Ortiz being too high risk. I dont think hes any more high risk than Cotto or Margarito.

Whats really in the division for either at the moment?

Ortiz may try and tempt Maidana up for a rematch, someone like Judah might be a possibility. But there arent a great many exciting options.

Judah won't fight at WW again he's a LWW and has said so himself. He only lost once at LWW and that was to a prime Tszyu and 5 times at WW where his record is very patchy.

manos de piedra wrote:I dont know if Id agree with Ortiz being too high risk. I dont think hes any more high risk than Cotto or Margarito.

Whats really in the division for either at the moment?

Ortiz may try and tempt Maidana up for a rematch, someone like Judah might be a possibility. But there arent a great many exciting options.

I dont see how marg was a risk. A slow plodding face first fighter, who fought out of his weight was perfect for Pac. Cotto had weight stips and was damaged after the beaating he took from Marg. Ortiz being a boxer/puncher and a southpaw is the type of fighter Pac will avoid. A decent and accurate puncher who can punch through Pac's poor defence. It depends on how well Ortiz#s chin holds up.

I see Judah joining the "who wants him" club.

azania wrote:I see Judah joining the "who wants him" club.

Don't see it he doesn't need the money and their are enough good fights at 140lbs for him to stay at the weight.

prettyboy1304 wrote:

azania wrote:I see Judah joining the "who wants him" club.

Don't see it he doesn't need the money and their are enough good fights at 140lbs for him to stay at the weight.

The likes of Khan, Bradley will stay clear of him because of the danger he posses. I like Judah a lot and love his style and skills plus his attitude. But as he has lost many big fights observers will not give anyone the credit they are due if they beat him. People easily forget his record at LWW.

azania wrote:

prettyboy1304 wrote:

azania wrote:I see Judah joining the "who wants him" club.

Don't see it he doesn't need the money and their are enough good fights at 140lbs for him to stay at the weight.

The likes of Khan, Bradley will stay clear of him because of the danger he posses. I like Judah a lot and love his style and skills plus his attitude. But as he has lost many big fights observers will not give anyone the credit they are due if they beat him. People easily forget his record at LWW.

I've always been a big Judah fan. He can always get a fight against one of the top guys at LWW he probably brings more money to the table than any of them. He promotes himself so isn't caught up in all the politics that go on between Golden Boy and Top Rank. His record at LWW is very good he only lost once to a prime Tszyu. He lost 5 times at WW that's why he won't step up again he has stated he is a LWW.

Imo I see Judah beating all other LWW with something to spare. He has the fastest hands I have seen. If (bif IF) his head is right he beats Khan inside the distance and Bradley by wide UD.

azania wrote:Imo I see Judah beating all other LWW with something to spare. He has the fastest hands I have seen. If (bif IF) his head is right he beats Khan inside the distance and Bradley by wide UD.

He seems to be doing it for the right reasons. He says money isn't important he has made some good investments with the money he has earned from earlier in his career. For me he beats them all quite easily he's a level above them apart from Khan and Bradley. I would pick him to beat both but not as easily as he would Alexander ( a poor man's Judah) and Maidana who Judah would just jab his head off and not let him anywhere near him. Bradley would be intersting his style might just play into Judahs hands and Khan is chinny and not hard to hit and Judah is a good puncher.

Agreed.

azania wrote:Agreed.

Come on, Ortiz stock will be high after that but lets not turn him into this superfighter when a few days ago he was a gutless hype job. Cotto and Margarito were far more proven than fighters than Ortiz is/was.

Ortiz defence is not much better than Margs and his chin isnt as good. I think Margarito at a catchweight was every bit as dangerous as Ortiz at WW. Cotto is a better fighter than both and I dont think the weight was a big issue for it.

Judah is a name with a decent following and is getting on a bit so I dont see him becoming a who needs him fighter. Hes still a draw with a good reputation.

prettyboy1304 wrote:

azania wrote:Agreed.

I have to agree with someone on here eventually.

manos de piedra wrote:Come on, Ortiz stock will be high after that but lets not turn him into this superfighter when a few days ago he was a gutless hype job. Cotto and Margarito were far more proven than fighters than Ortiz is/was.

Ortiz defence is not much better than Margs and his chin isnt as good. I think Margarito at a catchweight was every bit as dangerous as Ortiz at WW. Cotto is a better fighter than both and I dont think the weight was a big issue for it.

Judah is a name with a decent following and is getting on a bit so I dont see him becoming a who needs him fighter. Hes still a draw with a good reputation.

Think the problem is Pac doesn't have a lot of options after Mosley and has ruled out going back up to LMW and Ortiz would be every bit deserving of a shot as Clottey was.

manos de piedra wrote:Come on, Ortiz stock will be high after that but lets not turn him into this superfighter when a few days ago he was a gutless hype job. Cotto and Margarito were far more proven than fighters than Ortiz is/was.

Ortiz defence is not much better than Margs and his chin isnt as good. I think Margarito at a catchweight was every bit as dangerous as Ortiz at WW. Cotto is a better fighter than both and I dont think the weight was a big issue for it.

Judah is a name with a decent following and is getting on a bit so I dont see him becoming a who needs him fighter. Hes still a draw with a good reputation.

Oh I know how Ortiz was viewed prior to the Berto fights. I put his losses down to weight making issues. He is a huge WW. How he made LWW is beyond be. It must have drained his stamina. He may have a poor defence, but offensively he is leagues away from Marg. Also Marg was coming off a beating and a long lay off. A ready made fight for Pac.

I think GBP have faith in Ortiz's skills and ability which has proved correct. There is substance to the hype. If there is a weight stip in any fight, my instincts is to discount it. Many have argued that it was only a pound. If so, why ask for it in the first place?

Judah is a draw and a good rep. Losing to him is no shame but many will look to his 5 losses at WW and question Khan, Pac, Bradley is they lose to him. The average boxing fan sees the losses and not that he only lost once at LWW and that was to a booming punch from a huge puncher.

I personally think Ortiz is tailor made for Pacquiao so I would try get him while his stock is high. If Ortiz could follow up the Berto win with avenging the Maidana (which could be a another cracker) then why not?

I dont think Ortiz has anything to have Pacquiao worried.

I can also see him going after paulie. Would be a good fight as both guys can sell a fight and despite paulies feather fists he is still fun too watch. He should call out maidana again. He was winning against maidana before he cave in. He looked huge at WW against berto who is a big welter anyway. I can see him in a fight of the year clash with maidana and hopefully picking up the win.

I think he would be a very big risk for manny. Although he's been down a few times, he os a big hitter and has pit down mist of his opponents. Manny's defence is fairly weak and ortiz can exploit it. Although I think manny will stop victor or win a UD I think he can give a good account for himself and will bring him future big bucks.

A scrap against Alvarez would probably be huge as they have huge support despite being so young. He would walk through khan imo unless khan has alot
more meat in his shots when he moves up in weight.

I would also like to see him against rios. Rios is a beast and imo is the successor of JMM as #1 at LW(Guerrero is the only danger to him imo). His frame is suitable for multiple weights and I doubt anyone can stop him at LWW. He's expressed his desire to get to LWW an beyond and considering that there seems to be bad blood between him and victor as victor got all the press when they where younger, that fight will sell big.

manos de piedra wrote:I personally think Ortiz is tailor made for Pacquiao so I would try get him while his stock is high. If Ortiz could follow up the Berto win with avenging the Maidana (which could be a another cracker) then why not?

I dont think Ortiz has anything to have Pacquiao worried.

I'm probably a minoroty of one here when I say I dont rate Pac highly. There is always an asterix around many of his big wins.

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:I can also see him going after paulie. Would be a good fight as both guys can sell a fight and despite paulies feather fists he is still fun too watch. He should call out maidana again. He was winning against maidana before he cave in. He looked huge at WW against berto who is a big welter anyway. I can see him in a fight of the year clash with maidana and hopefully picking up the win.

I think he would be a very big risk for manny. Although he's been down a few times, he os a big hitter and has pit down mist of his opponents. Manny's defence is fairly weak and ortiz can exploit it. Although I think manny will stop victor or win a UD I think he can give a good account for himself and will bring him future big bucks.

A scrap against Alvarez would probably be huge as they have huge support despite being so young. He would walk through khan imo unless khan has alot
more meat in his shots when he moves up in weight.

I would also like to see him against rios. Rios is a beast and imo is the successor of JMM as #1 at LW(Guerrero is the only danger to him imo). His frame is suitable for multiple weights and I doubt anyone can stop him at LWW. He's expressed his desire to get to LWW an beyond and considering that there seems to be bad blood between him and victor as victor got all the press when they where younger, that fight will sell big.

Ortiz caved in against Maidana as he was wasted trying to make LWW.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I personally think Ortiz is tailor made for Pacquiao so I would try get him while his stock is high. If Ortiz could follow up the Berto win with avenging the Maidana (which could be a another cracker) then why not?

I dont think Ortiz has anything to have Pacquiao worried.

I'm probably a minoroty of one here when I say I dont rate Pac highly. There is always an asterix around many of his big wins.

I do rate Pac and if him and Ortiz fought just now their would only be one winner. Ortiz needs to prove he can cut it at that level. Malignaggi next then Maidana or Bradley stepping up from 140 or maybe a Berto rematch. Then go looking for Pac if he can get through that.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I personally think Ortiz is tailor made for Pacquiao so I would try get him while his stock is high. If Ortiz could follow up the Berto win with avenging the Maidana (which could be a another cracker) then why not?

I dont think Ortiz has anything to have Pacquiao worried.

I'm probably a minoroty of one here when I say I dont rate Pac highly. There is always an asterix around many of his big wins.

Even if you dont rate him that highly I dont see why Ortiz should be someone to trouble him.

I think it would go along the lines of the Margarito fight with the exception that Ortiz cant take nearly as much punishment. He may be faster and more accurate than Margarito but hes still some way short of Pacquiaos speed and accuracy.

I think it takes a slick fighter to beat Pacquiao, not a brawler. Ortiz doesnt have nearly enough slickness for me. Hes slower, not as accurate and easier to hit.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I personally think Ortiz is tailor made for Pacquiao so I would try get him while his stock is high. If Ortiz could follow up the Berto win with avenging the Maidana (which could be a another cracker) then why not?

I dont think Ortiz has anything to have Pacquiao worried.

I'm probably a minoroty of one here when I say I dont rate Pac highly. There is always an asterix around many of his big wins.

Even if you dont rate him that highly I dont see why Ortiz should be someone to trouble him.

I think it would go along the lines of the Margarito fight with the exception that Ortiz cant take nearly as much punishment. He may be faster and more accurate than Margarito but hes still some way short of Pacquiaos speed and accuracy.

I think it takes a slick fighter to beat Pacquiao, not a brawler. Ortiz doesnt have nearly enough slickness for me. Hes slower, not as accurate and easier to hit.

Ortiz is much faster than Marg and has better skills. Marg traded on his strength and punch resistance to wear down opponents. Ortiz is more skilled. I'm not too convinced on Ortiz's chin either but that for me is down to his weight making problems. If Clottey had land on Pac, I see Ortiz throwing more and landing more also. Pac will start as overwhelming favourite due to his record, but I dont believe he hits that hard at WW to KO Ortiz. Perhaps Pac being a volume fighter will cause a ref stoppage, but I will put my stamp on here and say without reservation that Ortiz will beat Pac. I see nothing in Pac that raises alarm bells. He has speed but a very leaky defence.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I personally think Ortiz is tailor made for Pacquiao so I would try get him while his stock is high. If Ortiz could follow up the Berto win with avenging the Maidana (which could be a another cracker) then why not?

I dont think Ortiz has anything to have Pacquiao worried.

I'm probably a minoroty of one here when I say I dont rate Pac highly. There is always an asterix around many of his big wins.

Even if you dont rate him that highly I dont see why Ortiz should be someone to trouble him.

I think it would go along the lines of the Margarito fight with the exception that Ortiz cant take nearly as much punishment. He may be faster and more accurate than Margarito but hes still some way short of Pacquiaos speed and accuracy.

I think it takes a slick fighter to beat Pacquiao, not a brawler. Ortiz doesnt have nearly enough slickness for me. Hes slower, not as accurate and easier to hit.

Ortiz is much faster than Marg and has better skills. Marg traded on his strength and punch resistance to wear down opponents. Ortiz is more skilled. I'm not too convinced on Ortiz's chin either but that for me is down to his weight making problems. If Clottey had land on Pac, I see Ortiz throwing more and landing more also. Pac will start as overwhelming favourite due to his record, but I dont believe he hits that hard at WW to KO Ortiz. Perhaps Pac being a volume fighter will cause a ref stoppage, but I will put my stamp on here and say without reservation that Ortiz will beat Pac. I see nothing in Pac that raises alarm bells. He has speed but a very leaky defence.

I dont see how you come to this conclusion at all. Ortiz was put down twice against Berto and was wide open for most of the fight.

Pacquiao is significantly quicker and significantly more accurate. He might not have the single punch power at welterweight to stop Ortiz with one punch but his speed, accuracy and volume of punches is more than enough to wreak havoc on him.

Pacquiao is just better in virtually every regard. Ortiz is entertaining but he outbrawled Berto. Not sure how you could translate this into outboxing Pacquiao who is in a whole different league to Berto in virtually every regard.

I come to my conclusions based on Pac's many weaknesses. I dont think he hits as hard as Berto and the punches that floored Ortiz were ones in which he was coming in. Is he therefore chinny? The first one was more a flash KD than anything else. He wasn't too hurt in either of them.

Pac has not fought a live opponent since MAB. Even then, MAB was at the tail end of his brilliance.

Ortiz seems to be a confidence fighter. Pac is a fighter who gives the opponents confidence because he is easy to hit. I'm not saying that Ortiz is that good, but rather Pac is really not very good. A close analysis of his recod post MAB displays alarming holes hence I always place an asterix next to his name.

For me Pac takes out Ortiz early. Ortiz is easy to hit and can be floored. Pac would just blow him away