England backline for first Autumn International vs Fiji

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Not taking into consideration the backs who are in the EPS or the Saxons, this is the backline I would choose for the first match of the Autumn against Fiji.

I won't take Foden or Youngs into consideration, as I am guessing they are unlikely to be fit.

15. M.Brown (Harlequins)
14. C.Ashton (Saracens)
13. M.Tuilagi (Leicester)
12. D.Waldouck (Saints)
11. C.Wade (Wasps)
10. T.Flood (Leicester)
09. D.Care (Harlequins)

21. J.Simpson (Wasps)
22. D.Cipriani (Sale)
23. J.Joseph (L.Irish)

With Foden injured, Mike Brown is the obvious replacement, he has been mightily impressive already this season, extremely solid in defence and under the high ball, his work-rate in attack is phenomenal. He hits good lines, often breaking the gainline offering himself as a ball carrier, his passing, tactical kicking and awareness are impressive and he plays like he has nothing to lose. Ashton also has a high work-rate and impresses me every time I watch him play, whilst Tuilagi should play at outside centre, as England must find a way to utilise his strengths.

Inside centre was the toughest position to call, I easily could have gone with Allen due to his partnership with Flood and Tuilagi, I could have also gone with Twelvetrees who I feel hasn't quite lived up to his potential just yet. However, I felt that a midfield of Waldouck and Tuilagi has a really nice balance, Waldouck isn't the biggest (like Allen) but he has quick feet, a lot of gas and a strong distribution game, if he can stay fit he could be a real asset for England. Joseph would cover the outside backs, he's been a shining light in a poor London Irish team.

Left wing was also a tough position to call. Jonny May, Ugo Monye, Charlie Sharples and even Matt Jess of Exeter could have been good options, however Wade has made an explosive start to the season, especially in attack. His all round game looks good, he has pace to burn and is extremely exciting to watch, however issues with defence may deem his selection less likely.

The inclusion of Cipriani on the bench is down to the fact that I feel the more he plays for Sale the better he will get, he's very much a confidence player, and on form he could be the best fly half in the northern hemisphere. Having watched Farrell today there is no doubting his defensive abilities, but he was very poor with the ball in hand and really struggled to get Saracens going. I'm sure he'll be a top player, but he still needs time to develop, and won't offer half as much as Cipriani can on the front foot, at the moment I am still far than convinced by Farrell at the highest level.

Joe Simpson has also been playing extremely well for Wasps at the start of this season, he isn't the biggest but he is very exciting and offers that x-factor certain players like Lee Dickson and Richard Wigglesworth don't possess, so I'd have him on the bench, as a player of his ability could change a game.

Fair enough. That sounds like the game vs Irish Wolfhounds. Where we were admittedly awful

Yes. I was a bit shocked, because from club performance i rated him highly. But you get a feeling straight away whether a player has it or not. And I'm afraid he doesn't.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Last year. He played in some Saxons game and I remember he was rubbish even at that level. I was very dissapointed because I heard so much about him. He was anonymous and only visible to make an error. He lacked pace, penetration, couldn't tackle, was caught out of position, had no kicking game and generally looked like a third spare wheel for a unicycle.

I'd be intrigued as to where you witnessed that, because he played well in the televised 2011 Churchill Cup where they comfortably beat all opposition, and neither of the 2 6N games were televised. I didn't realise that you enjoyed English rugby so much that you went to see our A sides play their 6N fixtures in Worcester (where the BBC said Twelvetrees was "instrumental in attack") and Belfast (which was on at the same time as the Wales v England senior match in Cardiff).

I think AWOP you must be getting mixed up with a different player. Twelve trees played in two televised games and in the first was one of the best performers for the Saxons and while the second was a little more mixed he still stood out as a cut above.

He seems to have steadied a bit at Glos as well which is good.

Somewhat late coming to this, but I really don't think 36 is ready for England action yet. He had his best game for Glaws by some distance against Wasps, but the rest have been decidedly average - he hasn't done much wrong, just hasn't done much right either! I'm convinced he will become an excellent player, but on form he's not done enough to force his way into the national setup yet.

For Fiji can see the starting line up being:
9. Care
10. Flood
11. Joseph
12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Brown

Is that the lineup I'd go with? No. But I feel SL will want to keep continuity for these tests.

The problem is HKC that all the other 12's look poor as well, JTH and Allan had very average games on Sat and i'm yet to see what Barritt can do other then tackle for either Eng or Saracens.

Twelvetrees has miles more potential then any of those three and his current form is no worse then there's. I'd play him and see how he goes. If it doesn't work then at least he can go back to Glos and work on where he fell down.

HongKongCherry wrote:Somewhat late coming to this, but I really don't think 36 is ready for England action yet. He had his best game for Glaws by some distance against Wasps, but the rest have been decidedly average - he hasn't done much wrong, just hasn't done much right either! I'm convinced he will become an excellent player, but on form he's not done enough to force his way into the national setup yet.

For Fiji can see the starting line up being:
9. Care
10. Flood
11. Joseph
12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Brown

Is that the lineup I'd go with? No. But I feel SL will want to keep continuity for these tests.

Totally agree on 36 HKC. He needs a full season to settle in for Glaws and work on the nuances of his game at 12. He has all the attributes but just needs to establish a bit more confidence for my liking. Working with Burns, Trinder, May and Morgan x2 will help him no end and come the summer I think he could go really well against Argentina.

My preferred backline for Fiji would be:

9. D Care
10. F Burns
11. N Abendanon
12. B Barritt
13. M Tuilagi
14. C Ashton
15. A Goode

21. L Dickson 22. T Flood 23. J Joseph

I'd like Burns to get a start. It's not just the start of this season that he's been playing really well. Some of his game management and attacking against Tolouse home and away last season was truly exceptional. He's not always had a pack on top and has had to learn to vary his game, something he does better than all the other English FH in the Jeff. There are some residual questions of whether he's fully ready, but I think he has the temperament to step up to that next level and not be knocked back by it. I'd probably bring Flood on from the bench and then for the rest of the AI's.

I'd prefer Goode at 15, and I think Lancaster will keep him there offering a variation on his original idea of two distributors at 10 and 12. Manu is settled at 13 and needs time to develop his game there, I don't think shifting him to 12 is the right call. Long term 36 appears the best option, JTH shouldn't be in the EPS for my money. Allen I wouldn't mind seeing given a go but I question the impact he would have on the international stage.

I'd be tempted to put that with a pack of:

1. A Corbisiero
2. T Youngs
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. C Fearns
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan

16. D Hartley 17. J Marler 18. D Wilson 19. G Parling 20. J Haskell

Croft is unlikely to make it, Johnson is injured but i'm not sure how long for and Wood needs far more game time before he makes an appearance.

Heck of a backrow that Chjw131, and Haskell's a good bench option. I think I would swap Fearns and Hask though, and bring Fearns on about 60mins, when defences are a little more tired.

Is Corbs back yet?

What I can't understand is how Joseph has become a favourite of SL's? He's not a better 13 than Manu yet Manu was moved to 12 to accomodate the LI man.

Maybe I am missing something but could anyone explain how and why he's now a firm favourite to be in the 23 at least?

beshocked wrote:What I can't understand is how Joseph has become a favourite of SL's? He's not a better 13 than Manu yet Manu was moved to 12 to accomodate the LI man.

Maybe I am missing something but could anyone explain how and why he's now a firm favourite to be in the 23 at least?

The only reason Manu was moved to 12 was because we didn't have any 12's for the SA test at the time. From memory both JTH and Allen played the full game in the mid-week side and Barritt was recovering from his eye injury.

There may have been some residual desire to see if Manu could play the Jamie Roberts role however, but for my money he has the legs to be a 13 and he's settling there nicely for Tigers at only 21 years of age.

As far as Joseph goes I think he was always in line for England having been championed at a young age by Catt and Guscott himself. He is a real talent, some of his play last year for LI was exceptional but he hasn't had a great deal of chances so far this year. I do think it was a bit premature to promote him to the EPS where he had little opportunity in the Tests to show what he could do. Having done that though I think he'll feature given he can cover the whole backrow bar FB and FH.

Also Lancaster is big on loyalty. No one, as far as i'm aware thinks Dowson should be in the EPS but he remains there on the basis that he's done nothing drastically wrong to be demoted. This sort of style doesn't sit too well with me, and it's a feature of Lancaster's selection policy that i'm hoping isn't as prevalent as I feel it to be.

There's nothing wrong with rewarding form, but he seems to be keen to hold on to players that have either not performed more than average or don't really fit his previous selection criteria on age etc.. Dowson, Johnson and Waldrom seem to be reasonable examples as far as I can see. Mears and Stevens were others pre their retirement.

chjw131 thanks for explaining it. Btw I don't think Joseph is a bad player. Just think he's not really done that much actually yet it touted as being a cert for the 23.

There does seem to be a tendency to move players out of their favoured position when I don't think there's the need.

It doesn't exactly show confidence in England's players if the coaching staff believe our best players in certain positions (Foden and M.Tuilagi) need to plug perceived gaps.

Of course in the case of Foden he has two decent rivals for the full back jersey who will look to make it their own in the AIs.

When M.Tuilagi is clearly the best 13 it really does baffle me.

I dislike these experiments -they fail more often than succeed.


Got to say my tune has changed on Lancaster - I agree I do worry that he shows too much loyalty.

Does anyone know what kind of team Fiji will bring to Twickenham?
Who are likely starters or Fijians playing in the N-Hemisphere?

Quera?
Is Isa Nacewa playing for Fiji?
Koyambole
Rabeni is in France isnt he?
Genova the new Tigers chap.

beshocked wrote:chjw131 thanks for explaining it. Btw I don't think Joseph is a bad player. Just think he's not really done that much actually yet it touted as being a cert for the 23.

There does seem to be a tendency to move players out of their favoured position when I don't think there's the need.

It doesn't exactly show confidence in England's players if the coaching staff believe our best players in certain positions (Foden and M.Tuilagi) need to plug perceived gaps.

Of course in the case of Foden he has two decent rivals for the full back jersey who will look to make it their own in the AIs.

When M.Tuilagi is clearly the best 13 it really does baffle me.

I dislike these experiments -they fail more often than succeed.


Got to say my tune has changed on Lancaster - I agree I do worry that he shows too much loyalty.

Pretty much agree with all of that beshocked. Foden had some great competition for the FB jersey, but he had been playing pretty well and if Lancs didn't trust him to kick enough in T1 then he should have spoken to Foden about it.

My concern with shifting players around is, as you say it shows a lack of confidence in them and the knock on effect is it engenders a lack of confidence in the players themselves; potentially having a detrimental effect on short/medium terms performance.

I think it's pretty understandable why Joseph was initially brought into the side as the bench option. In addition to being able to play a number of positions he had looked electric in the season leading up to the SA tour, a player who seemed the very definition of an impact sub, able to produce a moment of incision. Then a player who is on the bench and training as part of the match day squad is always going to be most likely to start next test if injuries occur.

He's certainly not the finished article and he wouldn't be my choice to start but he's got real talent that is worth investing in and I don't think there are many if any better options for the bench that offer the same level of necessary cover given who the starters are likely to be and where they can cover should a sub and reshuffling be needed.

yes exhibit P1 Ugo Monye being moved to fullback.

Still i think a wing should be able to play FB and vice versa.

Call me old fashioned.

The other annoying Lancasterism is to insist on only picking lightweight second rowers.

God help us in the AIs. Were fecked.

yappysnap wrote:The problem is HKC that all the other 12's look poor as well, JTH and Allan had very average games on Sat and i'm yet to see what Barritt can do other then tackle for either Eng or Saracens.

Twelvetrees has miles more potential then any of those three and his current form is no worse then there's. I'd play him and see how he goes. If it doesn't work then at least he can go back to Glos and work on where he fell down.

I agree that none are playing well, but in those instances I would expect SL to keep with those who have already been blooded, which is why I feel Barritt will start. As Glaws don't have the best track record of England's try and see tactic I wouldn't want 36's development affected until he is ready. I don't think 36 should be considered until the 6N at the earliest and there is a definite argument to say that there is a real benefit to giving Burns, 36 & Trinder and extended run of starts at Glaws for the benefit of England.

Thanks chjw131.

Fair enough niwatts.

Triangulations agree with the lightweight 2nd rowers but there are hardly 6,10 monsters tearing it up in the AP waiting to be picked.

HKC you just don't want England pinching your best players do you?

With key contenders for the 10 jersey - Flood,Farrell and Cipriani being in poor form it does leave the wide door open for Burns.

On other 10 news that's going on with Clegg and Ford?

Also how's Trinder being doing? He seems to float under the radar when it comes to 13s.

I disagree about moving Foden, I think it could actually be brilliant for him. Look at Cory Jane in NZ he's fb who was moved to wing and is electric there for them, he doesn't have as much pressure on his shoulders as a fb would but he can still come in to the line as a 15 and take the high balls on the counter alongside Dagg.

The same with Foden, it means we have the more secure Brown doing the basics more often then not and Foden is then able to bide his time and counter attack when it's on using his better pace. He runs and attacks more like a winger then a fb anyway so it's a pretty natural conversion.

But I agree entirely about the other moves, Foden is a one off for us currently. Manu should be starting 13 and shouldn't be moved.

beshocked wrote:Thanks chjw131.

Fair enough niwatts.

Triangulations agree with the lightweight 2nd rowers but there are hardly 6,10 monsters tearing it up in the AP waiting to be picked.

HKC you just don't want England pinching your best players do you?

With key contenders for the 10 jersey - Flood,Farrell and Cipriani being in poor form it does leave the wide door open for Burns.

On other 10 news that's going on with Clegg and Ford?

Also how's Trinder being doing? He seems to float under the radar when it comes to 13s.

Clegg still can't kick at goal but was brilliant out of hand last nite and on Sat. He looked comfier at 12 outside Nev and Botica. I wouldn't bank on him making the Eng Saxons any time soon though.
Botica is a far better goal kicker (100'% this season) and runner/passer of the ball, wait till he's Eng qualified (he might already be through relatives...) then we have a very good option.

But were doomed anyway without an inside centre and with our injury attrition rate. Thin on the ground at prop we are.

Beshocked, Trinder had a relatively poor pre-season and hasn't been amazing so far, but like 36 was far better against Wasps and is probably starting to find his feet. I would have him behind Tuilagi, Joseph and Lowe at the moment.

beshocked wrote:
When M.Tuilagi is clearly the best 13 it really does baffle me.

Got to say my tune has changed on Lancaster - I agree I do worry that he shows too much loyalty.

It's worth remembering that Tuilagi's form was very poor at the end of last season and he was pretty close to just being dropped on the SA tour before Barritt's injury. He's started this season well, but it hasn't always been so, and trying him at 12 made sense.

Burrell will fill the IC role admirably. He just hasn't been recognised by the England camp yet but he will if he carries on like he started this season.

englandglory it's quite clear why Burrell hasn't been recognised yet. With only 4 games for his new club under his belt why would he?

Plus isn't he just a bosher like JTH?

Having two boshers at 12 and 13 is a recipe for disaster.

We might as well have two boshers. It suits our "absenceofskillset". Be honest were never going to outplay Aus or NZ in a free flowing game of rugby.

The England game plan since 2003 and the one which is best suited to what we have....

bosh bosh bosh kick drive bosh bosh and repeat

Apart from England v Australia - Autumn 2010.

James Fitzpatrick is far better than Burrell...

Anyway pointless discussions...centers will be Barritt and Tuilagi.
And i have no issues with this at the moment.

No centres can really flourish with a FH who has zero attacking ability (Farrell) and zero help coming through from the pack regarding ball carrying and creating space.

For Fiji Game
9 Care
10 Burns (Flood off the Bench)
11 May / Monye / Wade (Pick a form wing)
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Brown

This is a strong backline..

We just need ball carrying from the back row and front five...to suck in defenders and create a bit of space...which will allow Ashton to run his lines...but also gives the backs a little space to operate better.

Burrell has started 2 games and come on as a sub in the other 2. He played well against Worcester, but I cannot see how this qualifies him to be anywhere near the England set up. He has clearly improved since his sub appearance against Glaws as I thought he was relatively average that game.

No 12 is playing well at the moment, but Burrell is not the answer at present. I have always rated him and I do think he'll go onto to be a better player, but he is a long way back in the pecking order at present.

With the team rankings at the end of the year being so essential to the next world cup, I cannot see Lancaster bringing in any bolters this year.

Triangulation wrote:We might as well have two boshers. It suits our "absenceofskillset".

Yeah, because the Tindall and Noon partnership was a revelation for us.

Chjw131 wrote:Apart from England v Australia - Autumn 2010.

Chjw

You speak the truth.

Unfortunately every couple of years England like to torture their long suffering supporters with a performance that suggests better days ahead.

It is what we like to call the "Buttercup". You know the song.

"why do you build me up, Buttercup? baby just to let me down, let me down...."

Triangulation wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Apart from England v Australia - Autumn 2010.

Chjw

You speak the truth.

Unfortunately every couple of years England like to torture their long suffering supporters with a performance that suggests better days ahead.

It is what we like to call the "Buttercup". You know the song.

"why do you build me up, Buttercup? baby just to let me down, let me down...."

Bit late joining this but personally I'd go for;

9.Care
10.Flood

11.Johnny May
12.Allen/Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Brown

Bench: 20.Dickson 21.Burns 22.Wade

On FH and IC I think Farrell and Barritt did a great job in the 6 Nations but it's clear from what Lancaster has said that he wants to play an open game and I'm afraid those two aren't really conjuctive with that. That said I'd happily keep them both in the EPS as alternatives!

I'd love to see Allen or 36 given a run at IC to try and prove themselves. Allens all round game has improved out of sight at Tigers to the point where he's probably the best all round IC in the prem. He's more consistent and confident in attack and excellent in defence now.

Twelvetrees is the brightest thing we've seen at 12 since Greenwood retired and as such deserves to be in at least the EPS and I'd happily have him in the XV. His passing game and siege gun of a boot would also allow us to play Flood/Burns at 10 more easily.