SCW backline for England

This is an interesting read

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2482031/Danny-Cipriani-brought-England--Sir-Clive-Woodward.html

SCW thinking outside the box controversial but interesting

His back line
SH Ben Youngs
FH Cipriani
IC Tuilagi or 12T
OC Sam Tomkin 1st choice or Delon Armitage or May ( interesting )
Wingers Wade and Yarde
FB Watson from Bath

SCW is a rugby Luddite who happened to be coach when 1 dimensional rugby coincidentally happened to be effective due to the laws not catching up with the removal of rucking.

It moved on. He didn't. 2005 is evidence. In fact, 2004 was evidence that he no longer had a clue.

Everything he says now is bitter spiteful arrogant agenda laden rhetoric.

Without reading it I guarantee he mentions the rugby World Cup and winning it three times, how he was responsible for the Olympics, how he personally found Jonny wilkinson in a door to door search of England and coaches him specifically to kick a drop goal in 2003. AND I bet he doesn't mention Martin Johnson once.

GloriousEmpire wrote:SCW is a rugby Luddite who happened to be coach when 1 dimensional rugby coincidentally happened to be effective due to the laws not catching up with the removal of rucking.

It moved on. He didn't. 2005 is evidence. In fact, 2004 was evidence that he no longer had a clue.

Everything he says now is bitter spiteful arrogant agenda laden rhetoric.

Without reading it I guarantee he mentions the rugby World Cup and winning it three times, how he was responsible for the Olympics, how he personally found Jonny wilkinson in a door to door search of England and coaches him specifically to kick a drop goal in 2003.

Well, GE, I suppose it takes one to know one.

Personally I'd like to hear/read his reasoning.

Let me guess. SCW would take Danny Cipriani and turn him into dan carter by introducing him to tedious previous British Olympians who would inspire him to tackle properly and stop being a Muppet.

SCW is a rugby Luddite who happened to be coach when 1 dimensional rugby coincidentally happened to be effective due to the laws not catching up with the removal of rucking.

         

SCW merely appears to be echoing Dave Brailsford's cycling mantra of maximising every possible benefit from preparation and performance.

He then attempted to nominate the personnel who he identifies as suitable and with the basic physical, mental attitudes and key performance indicators that are required to fulfil the RWC ambition.

Cipriani and Watson are interesting choices for different reasons. Cips given his past history, Clive sees as no encumbrance and Watson out of relatively nowhere given the the current trend to coalesce around Brown and Foden in most peoples' choices.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd much rather listen to SCW's considered views than GE's delusional deliberations.

I can see why he would pick Watson. His performances for Irish were very noteable. If he progresses well at bath could be quite a player. But Brown is outstanding week in week out at Prem levels...must be given a few games now.
Foden hopefully can refind that top class form.

Interesting comments from SCW, not so sure I agree but an opinion is an opinion.

Cipriani is the one that stands out, the talent at its most basic level has always been there, its why so many of us were excited when he first got into the team. He just hasn't kicked on, and hasn't shown the mental strength, defensive improvement and consistency of performance at club level to justify being pushed into the England team ahead of Farrell, Burns, Flood, Ford, Myler etc, and I've probably forgotten someone.

Sam Tomkins looks unlikely to ever play union at a sufficient level to get into the England team, if he has signed for a NZ league side for a few years, he will be around 26/27 when he returns, difficult to see him getting up to speed quickly enough, especially in the centres!

I haven't seen a lot of Watson, but every time I have seen him he looks very good with ball in hand, particularly as a broken field runner. I'm definitely not opposed to getting him involved with Saxons etc, if he isn't already. Again, looks like a fair amount of competition for the FB slot, Brown/Foden/Goode/Nowell/Daly all could be considered for test places now and in the future

To be honest I'm getting tired of Woodward picking a ridiculous team before every burst of internationals. He has picked a 13 who doesn't even play the sport for goodness sake.

In my mind Woodward was an above average coach who happened to have a very good group of players at his disposal, you only have to read/listen to Johnson, Dayglo etc to realise they basically ran the team themselves. Woodwards strength was to leave no stone unturned in terms of fitness, nutrition, sports psychology etc, which has since become the norm.

Spot on dude!

Yes the point with Cipriani is everyone was "excited" because of an ill educated media driven frenzy at having found "the new Jonny wilkinson" as though one were needed, because of one decent game against a rugby Minnow.

Fact is he doesn't have the talent to play international or even club rugby at any decent level.

SCW is now picks a likely England loss, cynically contradicts and  undermines the current coaches and selectors with lusciously untenable selections (hence will never be validated by actual implementation) in the hope that he looks avant garde rather than foolish...and then hedges in popping up to say "I told you so" after they've lost. The great smirking self promotion pompous feckless Muppet that he is.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:SCW merely appears to be echoing Dave Brailsford's cycling mantra of maximising every possible benefit from preparation and performance.

I think it's the other way around to be honest. Woodward was going on about marginal gains long before anyone had heard of Brailsford.

GloriousEmpire wrote:
Fact is he doesn't have the talent to play international or even club rugby at any decent level.

That's harsh. People forget just how good Cipriani was in 2007-2008, up until he broke his ankle. He was ludicrous with the ball in hand. He's never quite got his confidence back, can't tackle brilliantly or pass well enough off his right hand, but he's definitely got a load of talent.

Don't want him in the England team even slightly, but still.

I'm sorry but Cipriani is playing back up at Sale for a reason. He's poor and can't run a game.

When he came into the equation at 15 he had the pace and was able to look impressive but he's never cracked it at 10.

At the rebels he was poor. Sure he made a couple of breaks but they were all self made runs.... did he ever make line breaks for others? None from memory. He can't run a backline.

He's is a genuine test quality play at 15... probably 5th or 6th at 10 for England let alone the world.

fa0019 wrote:I'm sorry but Cipriani is playing back up at Sale for a reason. He's poor and can't run a game.

When he came into the equation at 15 he had the pace and was able to look impressive but he's never cracked it at 10.

At the rebels he was poor. Sure he made a couple of breaks but they were all self made runs.... did he ever make line breaks for others? None from memory. He can't run a backline.

He's is a genuine test quality play at 15... probably 5th or 6th at 10 for England let alone the world.

I didn't say he was good now. He's never looked the same since his ankle injury in the Premiership semi. I think it's harsh to say he doesn't actually have the talent though, as before his injury and subsequent confidence issues he looked phenomenal with the ball in hand.

thomh... my comments weren't to you mate, rather to SCW's article.

ball in hand as a finisher he is top class I agree. He has the pace for 15... that is where he should play if he wants to play test rugby again.

As a distributor and managing a backline. Very poor.

When he was at the Rebels he had a poor pack yes but he had O'Connor, Vuna, Mortlock next to him but they were never even close to being as potent as the Reds for instance.

fa0019 wrote:
ball in hand as a finisher he is top class I agree. He has the pace for 15... that is where he should play if he wants to play test rugby again.

Unfortunately for him it's a position of strength for England anyway, with a few really good players there who've never had question marks about their application over them. Can't see personally how he'll ever get back in the team, but I don't think that's for want of talent at all.

Been too sidetracked by the Cipriani conversation to point out that SCW's backline is completely nuts. Jonny May at 13? Tuilagi too slow to play there? Cipriani? Watson ahead of Brown and Foden? Armitage and Sam Tomkins as potential 13s? Youngs, Yarde and Wade is good. Rest is bizarre.

A typically weird selection from Sir Clive. I'm not sure that if he was actually responsible for the side he'd be picking Cipriani at 10 and Watson at 15, not with his job and reputation on the line. Much easier as a pundit to come up with off the wall "blue sky" "out of the box" thinking and sound like an innovator. When he was head coach however, I didn't think he was a particularly eccentric selector at all. I'd say his team selections were fairly conservative actually.

He did a similar article last year, where he had

9. Care
10. Cipriani
11. Wade
12. Burns
13. Armitage
14. Ashton
15. Brown

The strange thing is... he also said, I wouldn't worry about focusing on the world cup, only the next game, well if he put that side out tomorrow they would get smashed.

Lancaster's side at the moment is certainly stronger.

I do think he has a point about Armitage though. He is the real deal and England miss him... he would walk into this England set up at the moment.

fa0019 wrote:The strange thing is... he also said, I wouldn't worry about focusing on the world cup, only the next game, well if he put that side out tomorrow they would get smashed.

Coming from Clive "judge me on the World Cup" Woodward.....

I really do respect what he did with England from 1999 through to 2003, but he can talk some proper nonsense sometimes.

fa0019 wrote:The strange thing is... he also said, I wouldn't worry about focusing on the world cup, only the next game, well if he put that side out tomorrow they would get smashed.

Lancaster's side at the moment is certainly stronger.

I do think he has a point about Armitage though. He is the real deal and England miss him... he would walk into this England set up at the moment.

Delon has a bit of a history with his attitude. That's why he is not in the England team at the moment (as well as playing in France). Not saying that I agree or disagree with it, but SL has made it very clear that if you have a bad attitude you have no place in this England team. Clive obviously feels different about this issue, what with Cipriani and Armitage in his team.

screamingaddabs wrote:

fa0019 wrote:The strange thing is... he also said, I wouldn't worry about focusing on the world cup, only the next game, well if he put that side out tomorrow they would get smashed.

Lancaster's side at the moment is certainly stronger.

I do think he has a point about Armitage though. He is the real deal and England miss him... he would walk into this England set up at the moment.

Delon has a bit of a history with his attitude.  That's why he is not in the England team at the moment (as well as playing in France).  Not saying that I agree or disagree with it, but SL has made it very clear that if you have a bad attitude you have no place in this England team.  Clive obviously feels different about this issue, what with Cipriani and Armitage in his team.

Why then is Danny Care in the side??? That guy has just as much attitude on the pitch and far worse off it. He was arrested 3 times in 2012 but worked his way back in.

Ben Youngs and the wingers - fair enough - but he is having a laugh with the rest of it. SCW had his moment in the sunshine 10 years ago, needs to stop offering his completely ludicrous advice.

Cipriani is shocking.

I don't think any World Cup-winning coach has been as unfairly maligned as Clive Woodward. It's slightly disappointing when some All Black supporters, who often like to claim to a special insight into the game, try to rationalize their failures against his team by misrepresenting what England achieved. Happily, they are outnumbered by their compatriots who do understand the game, and who are ready to give credit where it is due.

I don't care for Woodward's back line, and I don't think he would have selected it himself. He wasn't afraid to experiment but he rarely went too far out on a limb, and would not have put so many untried talents together.

Having said that, he does give you pause for thought. There is a danger of a certain groupthink coming into England selection and it's no bad thing to start from scratch sometimes to look for insights.

Cipriani was outrageously talented. Brian Ashton speaks of him as one of the best natural talents he has seen. However, his injury undermined his game and, when he was charged down consistently, you could feel the crowd's confidence in him draining away. He hasn't shown anything like his best since then.

I'm with him on Armitage, not least because he was one of the few England players to have a decent World Cup in 2011.

Why does Delon get booed every time he plays away in France (T14)?
I should recall a universal reason, but I don't.

Is it a franco reaction to him avoiding a drugs test in England (LI) after the Tour de France unhingeing?

He made a childish gesture against one of the Clement players in the ERC final last May so isn't a popular guy.

Sir Clive's little bald round head has been in the sun too long.

doctor_grey wrote:Sir Clive's little bald round head has been in the sun too long.

Says the man who spends half of his time under the desert sun  
Just thinkin' ...

Yeah?
Your point?
You sayin' I ain't all together?




you must be talking to my wife.

I spoke to him earlier.

He says you are holding him captive since he came to visit his sister who went out shopping...






More factor 50 reqd, Doc.
 

fa0019 wrote:
Why then is Danny Care in the side??? That guy has just as much attitude on the pitch and far worse off it. He was arrested 3 times in 2012 but worked his way back in.

He was arrested for drink-related offences in the months after missing out on the world cup through injury, and has since got over that problem and worked his way back in. There was never any suggestion that his attitude to rugby and/or his value as a team player weren't good enough. Armitage on the other hand gives the impression of just being a tool. Whether that's fair I couldn't say.

You are killing me.