Punch power

I know there are a few factors which come into play when it comes to punch power.

Im interested to hear what most peoples views are on this and what makes some fighters have a bang compared to others who are viewed as lacking power..

Their arse - according to shavers. Unfortunate phrasing but he did say that.

It's a funny one, mate. There are so many theories flying around, the same which were flying around decades and decades ago. If it's all in the thighs, as some suggest, then the twig-legged Fitzsimmons, Bob Foster and Thomas Hears would have had no business putting so many opponents to the sword. If it's due, in large part, to being able to punch down on to an opponent, then you'd have to question why Valuev has seldom scord a knockout at anything above European level, and also why the likes of Al Brown, freakishly tall and rangy for a Bantamweight, generally had to go the full distance to win.

If you took a group of the elite Heavyweight hitters - I'm talking the Shavers, Tysons, Foremans, Tuas, Baers, Louises, Wladimirs and Marcianos, here - then you'll note that there's no particular pattern, no single one attribute they all share which you could say is largely responsible for their knockout success; some are tall, some short, some are muscle-bound, some lean, some have tree trunk legs, some not.

I'm of the opinion which Cus D'Amato taught, I suppose - that while there is an aptitude for punching which can be developed, great punchers are generally born rather than fashioned. There is a degree of weight behind all theories, of course, but I'm yet to be convinced that any single one of them holds greater weight than the others.

It's a gift...

...and I was born with it.....

..... nur-nur, nur... nur-nur!!!

Ive always thought that their body type does - something that allows the power to transfer from one point to the other without dissipating in the body - like SRR totalling fullmer, from the soles of his feet to the back of fullmers head almost simultanoeusly. I do accept the theory that big legs generate more power generally but then people like Naz come along - what use are big legs when you throw punches of your toes with the wrong foot and you think wtf

see below..

very open ended question, but their a few points most big punchers have at least one of.

1. timing: some fighters have a knack of landing punches the other guy doesnt see coming, floyds ko's come this way, macklin was a good example of it this weekend.

2. speed: speed is power as they say and it does seem to be true, khan and groves are good examples as neither are huge punchers but both can get ko's from punching speed alone

3. raw power: some people are just strong as a bull, or huge at their weights and their strength shows, vitali for example can stop a fight at any point with his natural strength, he doesnt have to swing for the fences.

4. bad intentions: some fighters (tyson springs to mind or haye) swing almost every punch with venom and only go for the ko, theres no setting up punchs or soft jabs or anything like that. fight that way and if your good enough you will ko people more often.

obviously a lot of fighter have these skill, but when you can use one (or more) super effectivly then ko's become very likely. i beleive that every fighter possess's the strenghth to knock anyone out, but not every fighter can utilise their strength effectively.

Being able to generate and transfer kinetic energy in large amounts is often the scientific explanation. I dont think there is any exclusive method to acheiving it though which is probably why its difficult to define. There are alot of variables involved.

I think its the brains abilty to send a signal, in sequence, from the toes, up through the body, to the fist. The result of each muscle group firing at the precise time in sequence has a cumlative effect...POWER!!!

But really, its a gift. A combination of all of the above plus genetics, namely, a high proportion of fast twitch fibres.

...as well as everything else that Eddy mentions.

Not the most scientific theory but I tend to agree with Mackem’s post that it is just a gift, many used to say Naseem generated it through his tree trunk legs but as Chris has already suggested the likes of Fitz and Hearns suggest that is not particularly the case and for every guy who can dig who suggests there is a common theme you will find a guy like Sam Langford who was not more than 5ft 7 and barrel chested but could knock genuine heavies sideways or a guy like Galento who was the antithesis of what a heavyweight should be but would have you in a world of trouble if that hook connected. Do genuinely think like all things it can be improved but the bulk of it is natural, otherwise a guy like Malignaggi would be able to dig, has plenty of speed, decent enough technique and always looks in terrific shape but can barely crack an egg.

maybe theres a certain gene that allows it. in athletics every 100m gold medal winner that has been tested for a certain extremely rare gene (i forget the name) and ALL have had it.

eddyfightfan wrote:maybe theres a certain gene that allows it. in athletics every 100m gold medal winner that has been tested for a certain extremely rare gene (i forget the name) and ALL have had it.

was it the fast gene?

TheMackemMawler wrote:

eddyfightfan wrote:maybe theres a certain gene that allows it. in athletics every 100m gold medal winner that has been tested for a certain extremely rare gene (i forget the name) and ALL have had it.

was it the fast gene?

Something to do with producing super-fast twitch fibres in the muscles or something like that. Johnson did a docu on it in the lead up to the Olympics about whether the slave trade in effect removed all the weak genes from the pool with only the toughest surviving (many with this special gene) and therefore creating a kind of engineered rapid evolution which has created the sprint athletes we see today (and why no white guy has ever run sub-10secs whereas black 100m finalists do it as a matter of course these days).

Much like Shavers, UFC fighter Rampage Jackson always says 'it's all in the ass baby' but personally think it must be something you're born with, there is no correlation between power punchers, they come in all shapes and sizes.

I've always thought there are many things that can contribute to power, mainly technique/timing and natural power.

Some physical things they usually share are back muscles: Hearns, Jackson, Ruddock, Fitz, Cleveland Williams and Tyson all had massive back muscles.

Shorter power punchers usually have thick legs, taller ones usually don't use their legs as much but have broad shoulders. I've always thought wide shoulders in comparison to the waist is important; the narrower the waist the quicker a fighter can rotate their upper body into the punch. Broader shoulders on a narrow waist would mean more momentum. See Hearns and McClellan for examples.

With tall punchers I'd say long arms to generate leverag help too.

Weight: I'd rank the three hardest heavyweight hitters as Foreman Shavers and Liston: all in the 200-220lb range. Bigger would mean less speed, smaller less weight.

I find the waist to shoulder ratio an interesting concept. Particularly the part about momentum. I'm not sure how true it is, but i like it.

It would seem a large proportion of fighters have a high shoulder to waist ratio, infact so many have, that it would not seem indicative of power. I like the theory though, very original.

Long or heavy arms, as well as wide shoulders, would also generate momentum. However the initial inertia would be required to be overcome by power? This seems like catch 22, or the chicken before the egg or something.

As Ghosty suggests there a multitude of differing combinations of physical variables that contribute to power, so many that any correlation to power and one particular body shape seems impossible.

(message to self....... ........stop agreeing with Ghosty)

speed + strength = power. so a combination of the two will go a long way to giving you punch power.

if you have speed and strength (from legs and core more than arms) plus technique and timing you're on to a winner.

i also believe some people are just heavy handed, they can land the same punch as someone else but it just feels harder, heavier, as if they have bricks in their gloves.

Interesting point which makes me wonder whether fist size makes any difference, Liston has the biggest fist of any boxer and had the most piston like jab and punch imaginable.

Power is natural.....why can a small guy hit a baseball or cricket ball further than a huge guy.....

I'm sure there are things you can do to improve like anything else..

But some guys can't Squat 500........some guys can't deadlift 500 no matter how big they are...

Power is something you have or you haven't..

Ratio of hips to shoulders is a factor in some cases. The twist of the hips leads to the twist of the shoulders so the greater the difference the better. Fighters like Hearns and McClellan were classic T shaped punchers.

TheMackemMawler wrote:
It would seem a large proportion of fighters have a high shoulder to waist ratio, infact so many have, that it would not seem indicative of power. I like the theory though, very original.

Maybe those without that ratio simply get weeded out early so only those with the boxer (or T shaped) proportions get far enough in the game to be recognised.

You almost need a measure of punch power to try and get an indication, in terms of professional boxers Malignaggi is feather fisted but how does his power compare to that of a normal bod on the street?

I'm certain Paulie could spark an average person without gloves on.

Vito Antoufermo wasn't meant to have any one shot power, but there's a story in Four Kings about having to fight their way out of a venue (probably after Hagler v Minter) and Vito decking some hooligan with one shot easily.

Power is a gift IMO, Ive often pondered this question. Throughout my lifetime the one punch knockout artists i can remember are Arguello,Hearns,McClellan,Trinidad, Hamed and Julian Jackson. All different shapes, sizes, techniques, muscle physique, but just blessed with that snap in their punches.

Ghosty makes an interesting point about the size of a fist, I remember reading Gene Tunney's book and when he first met Dempsey as a man, couldnt get over the size and stature of Dempseys pickled scaley hands. He thought the fists looked like they could knock a wall down.

cheers

Rodders

John Bloody Wayne wrote:I'm certain Paulie could spark an average person without gloves on.

Vito Antoufermo wasn't meant to have any one shot power, but there's a story in Four Kings about having to fight their way out of a venue (probably after Hagler v Minter) and Vito decking some hooligan with one shot easily.

Which if it's true gives credence to the waist/shoulder ratio in correlation to power, to my regret i've been clobbered by some wannabe hardmen and not flinched but stepped into the ring against someone half decent and immediately felt the difference.

I guess that would partly be down to the wannabe hard men just throwing their fist at your head, whereas the guys in the ring would've been schooled into how to punch correctly.

When you look at how Karate experts can put there hands through concrete blocks, and also Bruce Lee could hold his hand a couple inches from a target and send it flying..

Apparently these were down to focus of mind. so it could very well just be the state of mind of the person throwing the punches.

So for me its a mentality thing... when you are in the ring you are looking to rely on your fight or flight responses.. Those who hit hard have it in the mental make up... others might look to other strengths, maybe speed, movement... so on... and if they are lucky, all of it! ...

So for me, while there are obviously better techniques to learn and improve power, ultimately it comes down to the mind set and focus of the fighter..

Thats my view anyway.

I thought karate was less to do with power and more to do with polystyrene?

Also I take anything to do with Bruce lee with pinch of salt - he was a film star first and foremost

Well in general terms Force = Mass * Acceleration and Power = Force * Velocity.

Therefore factors that would affect punch power would be the size and strength of the fighter, the speed and timing with which they can throw the punch and their punching technique.

The force and speed could be influenced by the fighters proportion of fast twitch muscle fibres, muscle mass, bone density and loads of factors like limb length, joint flexibility etc which would have a biomechanical influence on the force generated. A biomechanist could probably tell you where the force is generated from... probably the rear leg against the floor (guess) hence the point about some fighters thigh size.

For example, hypothetically speaking, I'd imagine some like VK or Lewis generated more force (F) than say Tyson, due to their greater size but Tyson greater velocity (V), with his short limbs, so the end power(P) output maybe would be higher for Tyson or the same.

horizontalhero wrote:Also I take anything to do with Bruce lee with pinch of salt - he was a film star first and foremost

how dare you slur the greast man ever to have live!!

the one inch punch is a interesting spanner in the works, if most of the theorys on here (mine included) are true, how do we explain how that amount of force is produced without any momenutem.

karate (which i used to do) is all about rotation of the hips and straight lines, boxers tend to throw in archs (and lines) and use the shoulders to rotate, im starting to think it may purely be down to fast twitch fibre ratio, completely contolled by dna makeup

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:

eddyfightfan wrote:maybe theres a certain gene that allows it. in athletics every 100m gold medal winner that has been tested for a certain extremely rare gene (i forget the name) and ALL have had it.

was it the fast gene?

Something to do with producing super-fast twitch fibres in the muscles or something like that. Johnson did a docu on it in the lead up to the Olympics about whether the slave trade in effect removed all the weak genes from the pool with only the toughest surviving (many with this special gene) and therefore creating a kind of engineered rapid evolution which has created the sprint athletes we see today (and why no white guy has ever run sub-10secs whereas black 100m finalists do it as a matter of course these days).

the french guy has run sub 10secs, but he has it too i beleive, it has even been found in some europeans, but as you say is mainly found in american/american men with decendants from the slave trade.

Fast twitch muscle fibres. My best mate is a powerlifter, and I'm a boxer. He weighs 17 stone, 6'3 and is pure muscle, I weigh just over 11 and I'm 5'10. Looking at him, and looking at me you'd think he'd be able to punch much harder - and lift more. After going to the gym with him, and seeing him doing prison curls with 20's and me struggling with 8's you'd then think that he'd punch harder. He's also had kickboxing training for 2 years, so again, technique isn't the issue.

He punches harder than me, but not much. We've tested this on multiple punch machines (and hustled a few people in the process!) Its not technique, its not muscle, its not speed, its not a specific group of muscles - its all about how you convert kinetic energy into force.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Fast twitch muscle fibres. My best mate is a powerlifter, and I'm a boxer. He weighs 17 stone, 6'3 and is pure muscle, I weigh just over 11 and I'm 5'10. Looking at him, and looking at me you'd think he'd be able to punch much harder - and lift more. After going to the gym with him, and seeing him doing prison curls with 20's and me struggling with 8's you'd then think that he'd punch harder. He's also had kickboxing training for 2 years, so again, technique isn't the issue.

He punches harder than me, but not much. We've tested this on multiple punch machines (and hustled a few people in the process!) Its not technique, its not muscle, its not speed, its not a specific group of muscles - its all about how you convert kinetic energy into force.

Any old excuse to throw that in.

Surely it's a wee bit akin to a golf swing?

You know how you might apply as much power to a swing as you can but unless your club face arrives at the correct angle and hits the ball in the sweet spot then it's energy wasted and the ball can just trickle off the tee?

The timing and subtlety to delivering a knock-out punch must be very similar - the right amount of force delivered at the correct angle and making good contact with the nerve along the jaw bone. Even more difficult than a flawless golf swing since at least the ball sits still when you swing.