Not Funny Or Clever Just Disrespectful Gamesmanship

Saw what is described as Murray's failed attempt at a "tweener" discussed elsewhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tyH3JV-dEw&feature=player_embedded

When a player is forced to hit a through the legs shot because it is the only option and it comes off it's impressive because they have turned round what looks like an impossible situation by using a difficult shot. For example when a player is lobed and then scrambles back but has no time to turn and hit a conventional shot.

But that's not what Murray does here and not what I've seen Murray do on previous occasions. He could hit a conventional shot as he is facing his opponent. He instead chooses to show off by playing a trick shot. I wouldn't even describe it as a "tweener" as it's relatively easier than what I described above. The message Murray was attempting to send was that he thinks he's so good he doesn't even need to try. If I was Wawrinka I would have been furious as it's so disrespectful. (even though it didn't work this time Ha ha!) But maybe that's the idea? That's why it's gamesmanship as potentially it could make an opponent so mad they could lose concentration.

IMO this sort of behaviour has no place in competitive pro play as it goes against the rules and spirit of players trying their best for a win. Murray should have received a warning from the umpire. He should also expect to be criticized for resorting to such disrespectful gamesmanship.

Oh come hawkeye I watched the match not much in what you are saying. He was facing milos but he overran the play and Milos hit a deep smoker right back at him.

Socal

I don't know what your talking about! The clip is from the Wawrinka match.

He clearly came in, mistimed it and tried to recover it. Nothing to see here move on.

BTW another Murray article HE? Your tally must be more than all the Murray fans on here combined.

I think we're stretching Murray's intent here...just wrong shot selection...they all do it from time to time.

What are you people talking about. Have you watched the clip or are you just imagining what may have happened?

First he was playing Wawrinka NOT Raonic

Second. How can mistiming a ball mean you attempt to play a trick shot through your legs? Murray did mistime the ball but only because he was attempting to show off.

And Lydian seriously? You think facing your opponent, twisting your racket round your back and attempting to hit the ball through your legs is a legitimate shot selection? Just the wrong one... You are making a joke aren't you? Even the commentators say "Murray was trying to be funny but the joke's on him". If I was Wawrinka I wouldn't find it funny.

I watched the whole match Hawkeye. I know what I saw and what is evident in the clip. He misjudged his run and had to recover, he missed. Not a big deal. Commentators say that sort of stuff all the time about all sorts of players. Do you analyse them to this degree or just those you are negatively obsessed with?

carriege4

Well when people say that a player is forced to twist his racket around his back and hit a trick shot through his legs because he "misjudged his run" I have to say "Nonsense" or if pushed "you are attempting to find an excuse for what is obviously foolish and disrespectful behaviour". In fact the more people try and make excuses the odder it looks. I can't help but say something. That's not "negatively obsessed" it's refusal to be sidetracked by wafer thin excuses.

Even if the tweener made it it was still a less effective shot than doing a lob or a backhand clearly the success of one slam has gotten to his large privileged head. I also think he was trying to mock Federer who is the king of this shot. Fail on both accounts!

You are negatively obsessed HE, your posting history is littered with half baked stories, twisted quotes and ignored requests for evidence. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. It is a shame as I quite enjoy some of the non-Murray stuff you write.

There have been occasions Murray has acted in ways I have disapproved of and have said so, mostly negative body language and shouting at himself. Can you honestly say the same about Fedal? Have you ever disapproved of anything either have done? I don't think so. It's called balance HE.

Back to the OP, I saw what happened and have told you what I saw. End of story.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Even if the tweener made it it was still a less effective shot than doing a lob or a backhand clearly the success of one slam has gotten to his large privileged head. I also think he was trying to mock Federer who is the king of this shot. Fail on both accounts!

Which is why I maintain he didn't "choose" the shot so much as think "Oh S%it, I missed" and try unsuccessfully to recover it. Massive fail on mistiming his run, then poor execution of his attempted recovery shot.

please just stop hawkeye you are embarrassing yourself

Things don't get any better on here from "The Forums Sweetheart"!

If this is what the old posters are missing then I can see why they left.

He's made loads of them, so what if he misses a few?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsIm4nTAkKg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaEO14trfv4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JywIjqyDhgU

Yeah, that's definitely not Raonic.

I think it was a bit lame really, not needed at all. Trying to show off a touch and a bit embarrassing the way it turned out. Not a big deal though definitely a bit smart-arsed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNnqQ02OSzI

And just to remind us of the right time and execution.......

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XceEG9yHPEE

I am still confused. Are all tweeners disrespectful or just failed tweeners? If all tweeners are disrespectful then this fella is in big trouble

http://www.vxv.com/video/hbTj6KBg4z5m/roger-federer-best-tweener-collection-20-shots-from-01-to-11-hd.html

Personally I think it is just another shot and not one most would actively choose to play because of the reasons outlined by JM above. If all else fails it can get you out of tight spot though.

I suspect it is only tweeners by those born in Dunblane or any against Fedal that the OP considers to be an outrage against decency.

I think Hawkeye is suggesting that 'forced' tweeners are fair enough whereas Andy was just showboating really.

bogbrush wrote:I think Hawkeye is suggesting that 'forced' tweeners are fair enough whereas Andy was just showboating really.

I don't agree on this occasion BB. He did a successful showboaty tweener last year that, although it wasn't a big deal, I didn't really approve of. This time it looked to me like he overshot it and had to do something and the tweener was it.

About halfway through the video I posted one of the commentators says that RF "couldn't be bothered" to move his legs so did a tweener instead so not all his tweeners have been obviously forced either. I am not having a go at Roger, merely stating that standards should be applied universally and not affected by personal opinion of the player as is clearly the case in this article.

I don't think it's gamemanship but it looked like showboating to me. It's more likely to put off the player that tries it and misses, though I suppose Wawrinka could have lost concentration through laughing.

Andy obviously feels with Monfils out injured again, somebody's got to take his place with the ill-timed fancy shots. I was worried I might stop liking Andy if he became too focussed on winning and stopped being a complete buffoon every now and then, but there, I needn't have worried at all.

YvonneT wrote:I don't think it's gamemanship but it looked like showboating to me. It's more likely to put off the player that tries it and misses, though I suppose Wawrinka could have lost concentration through laughing.

Andy obviously feels with Monfils out injured again, somebody's got to take his place with the ill-timed fancy shots. I was worried I might stop liking Andy if he became too focussed on winning and stopped being a complete buffoon every now and then, but there, I needn't have worried at all.

Not sure I agree re showboating on this occasion but he is certainly still a buffoon on a semi-regular basis. Long may it last.

Federer is that good at 'tweeners he seemingly puts topspin on them.

LuvSports! wrote:please just stop hawkeye you are embarrassing yourself

Says it all really.

It's got so cringeful now I'm starting to wonder if HE's infatuation with Mr Murray is actually attraction.

Kindergarten phychology and all that, pulling the hair of the girl you love...

What you reckon HE?

lydian wrote:Federer is that good at 'tweeners he seemingly puts topspin on them.

My favourite is the wrong-footing tweener, and the reaction at 2:33.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=XceEG9yHPEE

I like the one v Djokovic because a) it was fantastic and b) it set up 3 match points.

The Special Juan wrote:I like the one v Djokovic because a) it was fantastic and b) it set up 3 match points.

It seemed to carry the next point too, which was very decisive.

Danny_1982 wrote:

LuvSports! wrote:please just stop hawkeye you are embarrassing yourself

Says it all really.

It's got so cringeful now I'm starting to wonder if HE's infatuation with Mr Murray is actually attraction.

Kindergarten phychology and all that, pulling the hair of the girl you love...

What you reckon HE?

Ha ha! So if anyone is not a fan of Murray and is critical of him it means that secretly they are a huge fan of him and are attracted to him. If this is the case someone better warn Nadal. Quite a few of the posters here on 606v2 have a secret crush on him...

Danny_1982, carrieg4 and others who fail (or pretend?) not to understand what my criticism of Murray is should spend some time watching the video's of Federer hitting tweeners

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XceEG9yHPEE

or even the failed attempt by Nadal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNnqQ02OSzI

Watch carefully. What do they all have in common? Both Federer and Nadal have been put in a position where the between the legs shot is the only option. Also they are both facing away from the court making the play not only necessary but very difficult to pull off. Imagine how you would feel if you were the opponent? Personally I would just roll my eyes and say "too good". Or not as in the case of the Nadal one...

Now contrast that with what Murray does in the video I posted of the Wawrinka match. And also the two video's posted by erictheblueuk (the third is from a practice match so of course isn't relevant)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsIm4nTAkKg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaEO14trfv4 (It's the 2nd shot on this video)

On all three Murray is facing the net. There is no need to place his racquet behind his back, lift one leg and hit the ball under it. The only reason is to (as some have described) "showboat". It's not funny, it's not clever. In fact to be honest compared to the tweeners in the Federer link it's relatively easy. In fact I'm pretty sure I could hit the Murray version of a tweener.

But most of all it's disrespectful. If you don't believe me listen to the reaction of John McEnroe in the first video and I think it's Andrew Castle and John Lloyd in the second. IMO it's also gamesmanship. You don't have to imagine how you would feel if you were the opponent as McEnroe in particular makes it more than clear.

HE - you're right. Murray is out of order and should be banned.

I think at the very least he should be forced to pay for Wawrinka's medical bills (as he is surely going to require a lot of medical help to get past this).

Perhaps a ban from all forms of tennis for 3 - 6 months?

Danny_1982 wrote:HE - you're right. Murray is out of order and should be banned.

I think at the very least he should be forced to pay for Wawrinka's medical bills (as he is surely going to require a lot of medical help to get past this).

Perhaps a ban from all forms of tennis for 3 - 6 months?

Isn't that a bit like losing the argument Danny? Hawkeye said none of that.

Yep BB, cracking tweener there.
The one versus Novak is great in that you can see him hit the ball deliberately at an angle by opening the face of his racquet to get that winner - simply stunning ability. All you can do is bow down and shout "we're not worthy" with those type of shots.

bogbrush wrote:

Danny_1982 wrote:HE - you're right. Murray is out of order and should be banned.

I think at the very least he should be forced to pay for Wawrinka's medical bills (as he is surely going to require a lot of medical help to get past this).

Perhaps a ban from all forms of tennis for 3 - 6 months?

Isn't that a bit like losing the argument Danny? Hawkeye said none of that.

Eh? How can a tongue in cheek response represent losing an argument?

Hawkeye's Murray articles are ridiculous, and deserve sarcasm.

I don't understand what you're on about.

Danny_1982

In my 6.40pm post yesterday I have carefully explained the difference between the version of a "tweener" that Murray performed and the circumstances in which he chose to play it and the tweeners performed by Federer. If you had watched the video's of Murray's "tweeners" you would have heard the commentators (John McEnroe, John Lloyd and Andrew Castle) supporting my assessment that what he did was disrespectful.

What part of this do you not understand? If you are not able to debate an issue why jump in responding with "sarcasm" and call (whether you agree with them or not) my arguments "ridiculous"? By doing this I do feel like I have "won" the debate because your only response is to call me names and ignore the evidence.

hawkeye wrote:Danny_1982

In my 6.40pm post yesterday I have carefully explained the difference between the version of a "tweener" that Murray performed and the circumstances in which he chose to play it and the tweeners performed by Federer. If you had watched the video's of Murray's "tweeners" you would have heard the commentators (John McEnroe, John Lloyd and Andrew Castle) supporting my assessment that what he did was disrespectful.

What part of this do you not understand? If you are not able to debate an issue why jump in responding with "sarcasm" and call (whether you agree with them or not) my arguments "ridiculous"? By doing this I do feel like I have "won" the debate because your only response is to call me names and ignore the evidence.

You have carefully explained a theory HE, nothing more. There is no real evidence with reference to the Wawrinka match (the Wimbledon tweener was showboaty and ill-advised - I'll give you that). Both a front tweener and a back can be out of necessity unless you are one of these people who has never rushed forward only to realise you have made an a%se of it and your legs are in the way. If this is the case

Let us not forget that there are other less flashy options for the back of the court too, like turning and making the shot. Commentators have also suggested that RF occasionally goes for tweeners when he doesn't have to. Not a big deal.

Let us also not forget that no-ones opinion is fact. If you feel that this tweener was disrespecful then you are entitled to your opinion (I obviously don't agree) but this article is in no way balanced or reasonable so invites a dismissive response or sarcasm. If you have a criticism then show it objectively, leave the character assassinations out of it.

What Carrie said.

Can't be bothered to add anymore.

hawkeye wrote:Danny_1982, carrieg4 and others who fail (or pretend?) not to understand what my criticism of Murray is should spend some time watching the video's of Federer hitting tweeners

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XceEG9yHPEE

or even the failed attempt by Nadal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNnqQ02OSzI

Watch carefully. What do they all have in common? Both Federer and Nadal have been put in a position where the between the legs shot is the only option. Also they are both facing away from the court making the play not only necessary but very difficult to pull off. Imagine how you would feel if you were the opponent? Personally I would just roll my eyes and say "too good". Or not as in the case of the Nadal one...

Now contrast that with what Murray does in the video I posted of the Wawrinka match. And also the two video's posted by erictheblueuk (the third is from a practice match so of course isn't relevant)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsIm4nTAkKg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaEO14trfv4 (It's the 2nd shot on this video)

On all three Murray is facing the net. There is no need to place his racquet behind his back, lift one leg and hit the ball under it. The only reason is to (as some have described) "showboat". It's not funny, it's not clever. In fact to be honest compared to the tweeners in the Federer link it's relatively easy. In fact I'm pretty sure I could hit the Murray version of a tweener.

But most of all it's disrespectful. If you don't believe me listen to the reaction of John McEnroe in the first video and I think it's Andrew Castle and John Lloyd in the second. IMO it's also gamesmanship. You don't have to imagine how you would feel if you were the opponent as McEnroe in particular makes it more than clear.

Just watched the Federer shots. On all bar one of them (the Dabul one) he had time to run fully around the ball and play a conventional shot. You can see him slowing down in several of them to ensure that the ball has dropped low enough to enable him to play the shot. Nothing wrong with that - it is certainly a crowd pleaser. It isn't particularly technically difficult by the way, albeit Federer does get incredible wrist snap on it.

In most of the Murray clips you can see that he has slightly overran the ball and therefore has to try something a little unconventional. The two shots against Tsonga were shots which only someone who is phenomenally gifted could have pulled off (particularly the one off a smash) and you just have to admire them.

I assumed, by the way, that this was going to be an article on Nadal's defeat to Rosol at Wimbledon. It was the only match I could think of where the title seemed so apt. Time-wasting; calling lets on opponent's aces and even shoulder-barging Rosol! That is true gamesmanship, not trying and failing to pull off a difficult shot.

Born Slippy wrote:

hawkeye wrote:Danny_1982, carrieg4 and others who fail (or pretend?) not to understand what my criticism of Murray is should spend some time watching the video's of Federer hitting tweeners

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XceEG9yHPEE

or even the failed attempt by Nadal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNnqQ02OSzI

Watch carefully. What do they all have in common? Both Federer and Nadal have been put in a position where the between the legs shot is the only option. Also they are both facing away from the court making the play not only necessary but very difficult to pull off. Imagine how you would feel if you were the opponent? Personally I would just roll my eyes and say "too good". Or not as in the case of the Nadal one...

Now contrast that with what Murray does in the video I posted of the Wawrinka match. And also the two video's posted by erictheblueuk (the third is from a practice match so of course isn't relevant)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsIm4nTAkKg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaEO14trfv4 (It's the 2nd shot on this video)

On all three Murray is facing the net. There is no need to place his racquet behind his back, lift one leg and hit the ball under it. The only reason is to (as some have described) "showboat". It's not funny, it's not clever. In fact to be honest compared to the tweeners in the Federer link it's relatively easy. In fact I'm pretty sure I could hit the Murray version of a tweener.

But most of all it's disrespectful. If you don't believe me listen to the reaction of John McEnroe in the first video and I think it's Andrew Castle and John Lloyd in the second. IMO it's also gamesmanship. You don't have to imagine how you would feel if you were the opponent as McEnroe in particular makes it more than clear.

Just watched the Federer shots. On all bar one of them (the Dabul one) he had time to run fully around the ball and play a conventional shot. You can see him slowing down in several of them to ensure that the ball has dropped low enough to enable him to play the shot. Nothing wrong with that - it is certainly a crowd pleaser. It isn't particularly technically difficult by the way, albeit Federer does get incredible wrist snap on it.

In most of the Murray clips you can see that he has slightly overran the ball and therefore has to try something a little unconventional. The two shots against Tsonga were shots which only someone who is phenomenally gifted could have pulled off (particularly the one off a smash) and you just have to admire them.

Either you're joking or delusional.

A smiley would help guide us.

Not sure which part you could possibly disagree with but please do explain. I'm sure it will be well worth reading.

Really necessary? The bit about Federer being so fast he could track those down pass them, turn around and play a normal groundstroke was quite funny.

Still, I'm sure you know that. You're probably just very enthusiastic about Andy.

Watched those clips and I'd agree with BB as in I couldn't see how he could have played those shots in any other way. However, going by OP it is surely still deemed as disrespectful to there opponents. We cannot have one law/rule for one and one for another. Simples.

By the way this is just another failed attempt a character assassination by the OP. I would read more into this if Stan took offence and has been in the press complaining and refused to shake hands at the end but he didn't so we can presume that the man who has most reason to feel disrespected saw nothing in this but the OP did how odd? But wait a minute this is a poster we are still waiting to congratulate a player for winning his first slam. Graciousness is lost on her it would seem.

carrieg4 wrote:

hawkeye wrote:Danny_1982

In my 6.40pm post yesterday I have carefully explained the difference between the version of a "tweener" that Murray performed and the circumstances in which he chose to play it and the tweeners performed by Federer. If you had watched the video's of Murray's "tweeners" you would have heard the commentators (John McEnroe, John Lloyd and Andrew Castle) supporting my assessment that what he did was disrespectful.

What part of this do you not understand? If you are not able to debate an issue why jump in responding with "sarcasm" and call (whether you agree with them or not) my arguments "ridiculous"? By doing this I do feel like I have "won" the debate because your only response is to call me names and ignore the evidence.

You have carefully explained a theory HE, nothing more. There is no real evidence with reference to the Wawrinka match (the Wimbledon tweener was showboaty and ill-advised - I'll give you that). Both a front tweener and a back can be out of necessity unless you are one of these people who has never rushed forward only to realise you have made an a%se of it and your legs are in the way. If this is the case

Let us not forget that there are other less flashy options for the back of the court too, like turning and making the shot. Commentators have also suggested that RF occasionally goes for tweeners when he doesn't have to. Not a big deal.

Let us also not forget that no-ones opinion is fact. If you feel that this tweener was disrespecful then you are entitled to your opinion (I obviously don't agree) but this article is in no way balanced or reasonable so invites a dismissive response or sarcasm. If you have a criticism then show it objectively, leave the character assassinations out of it.

Fair enough apart from the last bit. Of course I don't expect everyone to agree with me. But I do think I've presented a balanced and reasonable argument. And I never said anything about Murray's "character". For all I know Murray was naively unaware that what he did was disrespectful and could be used as gamesmanship. Maybe Murray's mum could gently point it out or failing that John McEnroe could do it Although I suspect he might be a little more forceful in advising Murray not to use this particular tactic.

Born Slippy wrote:

hawkeye wrote:Danny_1982, carrieg4 and others who fail (or pretend?) not to understand what my criticism of Murray is should spend some time watching the video's of Federer hitting tweeners

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XceEG9yHPEE

or even the failed attempt by Nadal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNnqQ02OSzI

Watch carefully. What do they all have in common? Both Federer and Nadal have been put in a position where the between the legs shot is the only option. Also they are both facing away from the court making the play not only necessary but very difficult to pull off. Imagine how you would feel if you were the opponent? Personally I would just roll my eyes and say "too good". Or not as in the case of the Nadal one...

Now contrast that with what Murray does in the video I posted of the Wawrinka match. And also the two video's posted by erictheblueuk (the third is from a practice match so of course isn't relevant)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsIm4nTAkKg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaEO14trfv4 (It's the 2nd shot on this video)

On all three Murray is facing the net. There is no need to place his racquet behind his back, lift one leg and hit the ball under it. The only reason is to (as some have described) "showboat". It's not funny, it's not clever. In fact to be honest compared to the tweeners in the Federer link it's relatively easy. In fact I'm pretty sure I could hit the Murray version of a tweener.

But most of all it's disrespectful. If you don't believe me listen to the reaction of John McEnroe in the first video and I think it's Andrew Castle and John Lloyd in the second. IMO it's also gamesmanship. You don't have to imagine how you would feel if you were the opponent as McEnroe in particular makes it more than clear.

Just watched the Federer shots. On all bar one of them (the Dabul one) he had time to run fully around the ball and play a conventional shot. You can see him slowing down in several of them to ensure that the ball has dropped low enough to enable him to play the shot. Nothing wrong with that - it is certainly a crowd pleaser. It isn't particularly technically difficult by the way, albeit Federer does get incredible wrist snap on it.

In most of the Murray clips you can see that he has slightly overran the ball and therefore has to try something a little unconventional. The two shots against Tsonga were shots which only someone who is phenomenally gifted could have pulled off (particularly the one off a smash) and you just have to admire them.

Ha ha! You are funny. Try explaining that to John McEnroe...

bogbrush wrote:Really necessary? The bit about Federer being so fast he could track those down pass them, turn around and play a normal groundstroke was quite funny.

Still, I'm sure you know that. You're probably just very enthusiastic about Andy.

Are you serious? Watch the first two clips in the compilation in HE's post. The one against Roddick he practically stops to give himself time to play the tweener. Note the difference in acceleration when he then sprints in to reach the drop shot. it is sweet when someone is so defensive of any perceived criticism of Federer but I'm not actually being critical of him. It's a great shot to play.

Is that the John McEnroe who always very respectful to his opponents on court and never used any gamemanship ? pot, kettle, black comes to mind.

That one V Roddick was the only one that was marginal and even then if you look at it there is no way he could have got right in behind it and played an effective shot. End of the day he hit a winner, other times it has been less successful just like any other shot in tennis. The only one here making something of this is a poster who has spent Murray's entire career on a crusade of character assassination and berating his lack of talent and insisting he'd never win a slam. But now that he has do we see an admittance she was wrong - oh so wrong. Of course not so that negates her opinion for me.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Watched those clips and I'd agree with BB as in I couldn't see how he could have played those shots in any other way. However, going by OP it is surely still deemed as disrespectful to there opponents. We cannot have one law/rule for one and one for another. Simples.

That's fair of you to admit that about Federer. But what about Murray? Are you fair enough to acknowledge that his version of a "tweener" is not like Federer's? Why do you think he placed the racket behind his back, lifted one leg and hit the ball under it? Don't worry whatever you say Murray won't have broken the law. In fact even if he did do something disrespectful that could also be used as gamesmanship there will be many that think it's not just OK but a great tactic. I'm just not one of them.

Calder106 wrote:Is that the John McEnroe who always very respectful to his opponents on court and never used any gamemanship ? pot, kettle, black comes to mind.

I think McEnroe makes an excellent judge of what constitute gamesmanship. But if he's not available you could always ask John Lloyd or Andrew Castle.

Sorry but my days of conducting a conversation with you cease from now until I read a concessionary post about how wrong you were about Murray. For eight years you have droned on unfairly about how Murray would never win a slam, ridiculed him at every chance (and more) and now that you have been proved oh so wrong you continue as if nothing has happened. Run along and post a congratulations thread on Murray on winning a slam and admit where you were so wrong and why you were so wrong and I may open up dialogue again.