Gatti - HoF worthy?

He's up for selection for next year with the decision likely to be announced by the end of this year.

He was a fighter impossible not to like and if you didn't love at least 3-4 of his fights, you can't like the sport!

There was a recent article on boxingscene where the author is one of those voting for the HoF and he said he won't be including Gatti in his vote.

He explained his reasons with one being that Gatti was great for the sport without being great at it.

He mentions the McGuigan factor which commonly comes up when judging whether someone is worthy of getting their place. The author says the bar should stay high and not lowered due to past inductees.

Personally I think he deserves his place. HoF credentials is not just on sheer achievement and resume but also the fighters impact on the sport should be judged.

He personified the true warrior side of boxing and for pure entertainment (which would have surely made many part-time fans into full-time fans) there wasn't many better.

I think he contributed a lot to the sport and should be inducted but can understand people's reasons against it.

What do you guys think?

I completely agree with the voter whose interview appeared in boxing scene. There have indeed been plenty of boxers inducted into the HofF who were not of the first rank - McGuigan is just one of many, alongside folk like Zaragoza, Johansson and many others.

Two wrongs don't make a right, though. The Hall of Fame should be restricted to the elite of the sport, in my opinion, and I believe that voters need to get back to this concept in making their choices. Gatti was hugely exciting, of course. He was a mile away from the creme de la creme, though. Accept him into the fellowship and you finally accept that this is a place for all-comers, not the very best of all time.

At some point, a line has to be drawn.

I think being involved in some of the most exciting fights the world has ever seen with a brave display of heart and guts does make him a contender, because he was a multi weight world champion who did beat some good boxers, but nobody truly great.

He'll always be remembered for his trilogy with Ward, but as Cap has alluded to he was too far from being "elite" to really make a case for actual induction.

He was found out against world class opposition almost every time.

Deserves an honorable mention for having so many FOTY's by still, I would be against Gatti going in.

Entertaining fighter, but would he be up for consideration if his wife hadn't offed him? Seems like a sympathy vote.

x

It may be what we would choose to watch, alma, but it isn't, or shouldn't be, what the HoF is all about. The latter was originally meant to be designed as a place for the immortals of the game. Obviously, something has been lost in translation in recent years, but that's what I reckon voters should still be keeping their eyes on.

Now there are some who find Pernell Whitaker dull, who would far rather watch a guaranteed entertainer, whatever their record. That's fine, but are we really saying that both Sweet Pea and the exciting fighter with the so-so record deserve similar consideration? Not for me.

Naz is a fighter about whom debate is understandable. I accept the points made by those who disliked him, point to the manner of his loss to Barrera and suggest that his accomplishments are thereby diminished. For me, his spell of six years or so at or near the top of the game, more than three as the lineal featherweight champ, having beaten all belt holders at one time or another, is quite enough for his entry to the Hall. As I say, though, it is a reasonable debate to have. I don't see anything like the similar requisite quality on Gatti's CV to suggest that he demands entry to an elite group. The fact that others have slipped the net doesn't alter my view on this.

You're tempted to support Gatti's case on account of the ridiculously entertaining bouts he was involved in, but there's just no case for him being at an elite HoF worthy level: "great for the sport without being great at it" sums it up correctly for me. I would say no.

40Wins - 31 KO's

2 Weight World Champion

Heroic Warrior

Responsible for Indelible Memories the World Over

Boxing Super Star

Tragic Ending

Hall of Famer

I have no qualms with "raising the bar". However, if Gatti fails to make the grade, then the new criteria for the induction of future candidates needs to be clearly defined and past inductees retrospectively omitted based on this new criteria.

Immortalisation is huge reward in life. Surely Gatti deserves it over others, for the blood he shed?

Without meaning to sound harsh, I believe that making room for Gatti in the Hall of Fame would make a mockery of the Canastota institute, and that's saying something given the somewhat flimsy credibility of their Hall to start with.

I accept that there are a string of fighters who aren't of the elite who are in there already, but that's no reason to compound the error by admitting Gatti, is it? Even then, the inductees of a lower rank, McGuigan being a prime example, have better credentials.

No, great value for money fighter, fine chap, but simply not a Hall of Famer.

I know he's was never the P4P criteria but the amount of entertaining fights he made and thus contributing massively to the sport should make him be reviewed at least.

I guess it depends whether HoF is based purely on talent and achievement rather than including impact on the sport into the judging criteria.

If the former then Gatti is a no but if you include all the above then I would say yes.


On another note, the following years inductees are a shoe-in as the boxingscene author said:

Tommy Hearns
Joe Calzaghe
Felix Trinidad

No one else will get a looking that year!

Jamie Moore was in a lot of entertaining fights is anyone willing to back his induction?

Fair point Rowley.

I think in these days of fractured titles and creative match making we have to be wary of putting world titles forward as an assessment criteria. Nathan Cleverly is a world champion with a few defences to his name, the statistics have to be used cautiously.

For me in the modern era I think we have to ask if there was ever a point where a guy was considered the man at his weight and I am not sure this was ever the case with Gatti. Obviously is not as simple as this because you then have to look at standard of the division and longevity but I do think the time has long since passed where guys like Gatti were inducted on the grounds that there is as bad or worse already in there, as seeing the likes of Gatti and Stallone alongside the likes of Armstrong and Ali cheapens the whole process.

Gatti should not be in a well put together hall of fame based solely on achievement like 606's very own, no question. He should however be inducted into the current hall of fame for me. It is based on a number of criteria seemingly and although his achievements may fall a touch short I think he makes up for it with what he added to the sport during his active years, also I think he holds the record for being in more Ring magazine FOTY's than anyone else and that has to count for something.

I've just seen that Ali actually has been in more FOTY than anyone else, that surprised me.

bellchees wrote:I've just seen that Ali actually has been in more FOTY than anyone else, that surprised me.

Has he got more than Basillio, I know Carmen won it something crazy like five in a row, is possible as I believe Ali got a few sentimental picks towards the end of his career, think even the Spinks rematch won it which is crazy, still a shock to know Ali had the record.

For me personally Gatti should be inducted.

I agree with everyone that if it was on ability alone he shouldn't get in but he is a boxer that got me in to the fight game, I was recommended to watch his trilogy with Ward by my Dad and those 3 fights were instrumental in getting me hooked to boxing.

As an advertisement for the sport and for bringing fans such as myself to the sport i think he is more than worthy.

I guess it all just depends on what criteria you feel is needed to be a hall of famer.

rowley wrote:

bellchees wrote:I've just seen that Ali actually has been in more FOTY than anyone else, that surprised me.

Has he got more than Basillio, I know Carmen won it something crazy like five in a row, is possible as I believe Ali got a few sentimental picks towards the end of his career, think even the Spinks rematch won it which is crazy, still a shock to know Ali had the record.

Yeah 6 for Ali, 5 for Basillio which as you say were all in a row. Ali won a few for various reasons other than the quality of the fight it would appear.

Seeing the comments above relating to Gatti not being inducted due to being beaten upon stepping up to elite level....

How would most of you feel about De LaHoya being inducted as he too was beaten against guys at the top level.

(I didnt want to start another thread)

ODLH's level of competition was above Gatti's

It may have been above Gatti's but is it worthy of HoF status?? He was beaten by the best. Too much controversy against Whitaker and Strum also.

Not enough wins against elite competition to be included either.

Best wins, Chavez(2), Gatti, Mayorga and Vargas.

Not HoF worthy for me.

Gatti is not as good a win for DLH as Camacho, Miguel Angel Gonzalez or Ike Quartey, for me, Dee. If you want to regard Oscar's wins over Whitaker and Sturm as controversial, you must also do the reverse for his losses against Mosley and Trinidad. You also need to appreciate that towards the end of his career, he wasn't all that far from beating Mayweather.

DLH is a deserved HoF shoo-in, in my opinion. A level above Gatti, I should say.

ODLH for his ridiculous weight hopping from SFW to Middleweight and winning titles along the way is enough for me - he also has had some cracking wins, albeit controversial, he's also had his share of bad decisions, there was a whisker between him and Floyd, I can't ignore that.

Even as someone far less enamored with the golden boy than many on here I would have to say Oscar’s credentials are a lot more solid than Arturo’s, did his business and had his success across a far greater weight range and even to the naked eye the gap in quality was clear and for me wins, albeit allowing for the close nature of some of them over the likes of Quartey, Whitaker and Vargas are a step or two above anything Gatti can boast.

However in an ideal world Oscar would be a guy who would stimulate debate amongst those charged with filling Canastota rather than the absolutely guaranteed first ballot shoo in he is now.

That was your 9000th post Jeff, congrats!!

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:That was your 9000th post Jeff, congrats!!

I never realised reborn cheers, although there is a little part of me can't help thing I should have done something a little more productive with my time

Good points,

What about Ricky Hatton??

which elite fighter did Hatton ever beat in their peak.

Hatton would certainly get the McGuigan criteria for his entry.

I'd say no to Hatton all day. Bear in mind I'm probably a little more stringent than most with my ratings of what I see as mediocre fighters.

Hatton would be a no for me, unless he shocks us all in his comeback and finds himself back in the P4P mix, however I do fear when his time comes he will get the call, to give it a positive spin, the first Brit to be crowned Ring fighter of the year, Ring Magazine belt holder and considered the preeminent 140 fighter for a good few years who lost only two fights and those to the absolute cream of the crop.

This is the thing with the hall though it is so inconsistent, I am sure Ricky will make it in but are his claims for entry really stronger than either Don Curry or Naz? Not for me they are not.

Totally agree lads.

I never really got the whole "ricky ruled the lightwelter division" claim.

Fought 4 times at LWW after winning a world title at Welter, those opponents where Urango, Castillo, Lazcano & Malagnaggi. Is that all it took to rule that division??

I think Hatton was caught between two stools, in fairness. Too big for Lightweight, too small for Welter - but a lack of really interesting names and fights at 140 lb between those divisions once he'd dethroned Tszyu. Before Pacquiao established himself at Lightweight or higher, Ricky was talking about taking on the De la Hoyas of this world at 154 lb, which says much. That would have been suicide.

Had he peaked two or three years later, he'd have had an established Khan as well as Bradley, Matthyse etc to have fought. Had he been around a few years earlier, as well as a peak Tszyu he could have thrown hands with Judah and the like. But as it was, from 2005-2008 the Malignaggis, Urangos and Maussas were the best he could get his hands on.

Hatton shouldn't be in any Hall of Fame in any case, if we're honest. Another sport close to my heart, rugby league, have the right idea largely. Look what Andrew Johns, a hero of mine, had to do just to become one of the 'Immortals' of the game recently, only the eighth man in history to achieve that status; Player of the Tournament at a World Cup, three Dally M medals as the best player of the season in NRL, the highest points scorer in the history of Australian first-grade rugby league at the time of his retirement, a Clive Churchill medal for being man of the match in a grand final, and two Golden Boot awards as the best player in the world, the first man to win the honour twice.

That particular golden group may be a little too exclusive, of course, and there'd certainly be a hell of a lot more than eight to be including in boxing even if much stricter standards were applied. But the point stands - honours such as 'Hall of Famer' need to be for the elite, rather than the good.

It seems to be more towards the most famous fighters. Of which I fear Chavez Jr will probably be put in it.

I think its too late for Canastota to stop the momentum they have created in terms of setting the bar pretty low and sooner or later you feel anyone that virtually anyone who held a world title at some point will make their way in.

They probably should have had a seperate sort of "lifetime acheivement" category for fighters like McGuigan or Gatti if they wanted to remember that was seperate to the actual "Hall of Fame" but I guess now the general position is that Hall of Fame is pretty much a very broad spectrum of inclusion rather than an elitist club for the very best.

If Gatti gets in then Nigel Benn should get in also. Benn accomplished just as much as Gatti I reckon.

Gatti was one of the most exciting boxers ever so yes he should be in the hall of fame.

HOF is a joke.........

Canizales and no Curry....

I'd stick Gatti in it.....why not If Mcguigan and Zaragoza are in.... sure....

Stick Audley in it too..........

A definite no to Gatti, despite being exciting to some not me I must add he simply wasn't one of the elite. Give me Barrera/Morales or Castillo/Corrales any day over Gatti/Ward which must be the most over rated fights in history.

As for De La Hoya it is a far trickier assignment, his record is littered with quality with only a few losses a couple of which were very controversial (Mosley and Trinidad). On the balance though wins over Hernandez, Leija, Bredahl, Ruelas, Gonzalez, Chavez, Whitaker, Camacho, Quartey, Carr, Castillejo, Campas, Vargas and Mayorga is some set of wins. All of whom I would consider to be better fighters than Gatti as harsh as that sounds.

Gatti was a exciting value for money entertaining fighter,but not a HoF for me,certainly hasn't beat enough quality to be considered IMO.

If Gatti does get in the HoF then I feel its on a sympathy vote for the tragic way his life ended.

Nobody is questioning there are fighters that are in the HoF who shoudn't be,but 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Gattis place in the sport compares to quite a few on this complete HOF list of moden fighters...

Muhammad Ali
Sammy Angott
Fred Apostoli
Alexis Arguello
Henry Armstrong
Carmen Basilio
Wilfred Benitez
Nino Benvenuti
Jackie (Kid) Berg
Jimmy Bivins
Joe Brown
Ken Buchanan
Charley Burley
Orlando Canizales
Miguel Canto
Michael Carbajal
Jimmy Carter

Marcel Cerdan

Antonio Cervantes

Bobby Chacon

Jeff Chandler

Jung-Koo Chang

Ezzard Charles

Julio Cesar Chavez

Curtis Cokes

Billy Conn

Pipino Cuevas

Roberto Duran

Flash Elorde
Jeff Fenech

George Foreman

Bob Foster

Joe Frazier

Gene Fullmer

Khaosai Galaxy

Victor Galindez

Kid Gavilan

Joey Giardello

Wilfredo Gomez

Humberto Gonzalez

Billy Graham

Rocky Graziano

Emile Griffith

Marvelous Marvin Hagler

Masahiko (Fighting) Harada

Thomas Hearns

Larry Holmes

Beau Jack

Lew Jenkins

Eder Jofre

Ingemar Johansson

Harold Johnson

Mark Johnson

Cocoa Kid

Ismael Laguna

Jake LaMotta

Sugar Ray Leonard

Lennox Lewis
Sonny Liston

Nicolino Locche

Duilio Loi

Danny Lopez

Ricardo Lopez

Joe Louis

Mike McCallum

Barry McGuigan

Rocky Marciano

Lloyd Marshall

Joey Maxim

Brian Mitchell

Bob Montgomery

Carlos Monzon

Archie Moore

Jose Napoles

Azumah Nelson

Terry Norris

Ken Norton

Ruben Olivares

Carl (Bobo) Olson

Carlos Ortiz

Manuel Ortiz

Carlos Palomino

Laszlo Papp

Willie Pastrano

Floyd Patterson

Eusebio Pedroza

Willie Pep
Pascual Perez

Eddie Perkins

Aaron Pryor

Dwight Muhammad Qawi

Sugar Ramos

Sugar Ray Robinson

Luis Rodriguez

Edwin Rosario

Matthew Saad Muhammad

Sandy Saddler

Vicente Saldivar

Salvador Sanchez

Max Schmeling

Michael Spinks

Dick Tiger

Jose Torres

Kostya Tszyu

Randy Turpin

Mike Tyson

Jersey Joe Walcott

Pernell Whitaker

Holman Williams

Ike Williams

Chalky Wright

Tony Zale

Daniel Zaragoza

Carlos Zarate

if he does get in then it would be on the strength of his triology with ward, possible the most exciting fights of the modern era. but on that basis ward should be inducted to.

personally i feel that those fight do earn ward and gatti hof entry, i dont think a fight of that pace and intensity will ever be replicated due to how quick refs stop fights these days

I do think when you look at the quality on someone like Floyd Pattersons record it would be harsh to exclude Gatti. I can't see how Patterson would make it in if he hadn't been the youngest heavyweight champion ever at the time, his record at the weight is nothing like HOF worthy. He should have stayed at light heavyweight where he may well have been considered a great but fact is he didn't and his career is the worse for it.

Some will say the halls a place for those who had an influence and an impact on the sport. Theres no doubt that Gatti did this. 2 weight world champ who was involved in 4 Ring fights of the year including that trilogy. Had an enormous fan base and always gave his all never letting the side down win or lose. Wasn't the most talented but that makes his impact even more impressive and based on some who have made it he deserves a spot.

Despite not being the most talented I think he managed to carve himself a memorable legacy as a must see fighter and achieved much more than he should have. Was never in a dull fight and kept many people interested in boxing. Perhaps the HOF should be completely elitist but it hasnt been up to now and based on some in there already Arturo would get my vote.

Again if the HOF had been completely elitist he wouldnt get my vote but its not and I dont think we can simply move the goalposts and say he shouldnt get in to show how we'd like the HOF to be.

I seem to remember a similar article last year regarding Tyson & his eligibility - you could make the same argument against his inclusion.

Massively popular - yes [equally massively unpopular with some - womens' rights groups for instance )
Made a big impact - yes
Transcended the sport - yes
Beat a truly great fighter - er no

Yet if memory serves most people on here thought Iron Mike deserved to be included.

Tyson acheived alot more than Gatti for me. Youngest heavyweght champion and reigned undisputed for about 4 years. I dont think Gatti, despite winning world titles, was ever considered the best fighter in any of his weight classes and never really enjoyed anything like he domination Tyson did for a number of years.

Gills fan Alma, where you live then?

alma wrote:Watched gatti v mayweather yesterday and the gulf in class was huge, it was like watching man united play gillingham (and I say that as a gillingham fan). Sentimentality may win the daw though I think.

How does someone become eligible for the hall of fame by the way? I could Google it I suppose

Gulf in class between Mayweather and Marquez was also huge. JMM is a nailed on hall of famer. I know hes a lot better than Gatti but harsh to penalise someone for being inferior to someone as good as PBF.

I can see both sides of the arguments but disagree with anyone who thinks he should not be in it based on how they think The HOF should be ran as opposed to how it is and has always been decided.

alma wrote:It was just a general observation PP. I wondered whether ironically gatti might have fared better if he hadn't tried to box and had just reverted to type.

I know Alma. I just have a soft spot for Arturo...

Probably not. He gets completely outclassed no matter what he tries.

I dont really think the multi weight titles means much nowadays unless they are scrtinised to be honest. Arthur Abraham and Paulie Malignaggi are two weight champions. I think Iran Barkley and Duke McKenzie might be three weight champions! Even allowing for the rather loose credentials to get into the HoF as it stands now I still question if Gatti really warrants a spot based on much more than been an entertaining and popular fighter.

manos de piedra wrote:I dont really think the multi weight titles means much nowadays unless they are scrtinised to be honest. Arthur Abraham and Paulie Malignaggi are two weight champions. I think Iran Barkley and Duke McKenzie might be three weight champions! Even allowing for the rather loose credentials to get into the HoF as it stands now I still question if Gatti really warrants a spot based on much more than been an entertaining and popular fighter.

As has been said before the same could be said about McGuigan and others.