Wasps vs dragons

First topic message reminder :

Just about to kick off on s4c

formerly known as Sam wrote:

As a Dragons fan I'm left wondering whether Darren Edwards has chosen a bit of a 2nd string team on purpose, or has his hand been forced by injuries?

I think Wasps are resting Payne, Palmer, Haskell, Jones, Masi and Wade. Daly is only on the bench as well.

I'm not suggesting that we're at any disadvantage to wasps, or that wasps are not at full strength, sorry if you got that impression. Rather, I'm trying to work out if/why Darren Edwards has deliberately weakened his team for our showpiece tournament (from a Dragons point of view). Just trying to work out if the AC is not a priority for us which, if that's the case, is wrong in my opinion!

Giving away silly penalties won't help dragons cause. Nicky Robinson kicks them occaisionally

The young wing is a waste of space for the dragons, just given away a second try, why not sub him?

Robinson is running this game.

LondonTiger wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Isn't Payne still banned for the knee drop against Saints? That was a couple of weeks ago wasn't it?

Aye, second week of his ban I think. Still Wasps are resting a few key players. Premiership survival is imperative for them, while I wonder whether the Dragons feel their best chance of HC action is to finish higher than the Blues.

That's the thing for me LondonTiger, the AC is much more our 'level'. I know it doesn't bring in as much money (who cares, the WRU just gives the 4 regions an even split anyway!) but I see little point in focusing on the league and trying to finish above the Blues, to the detriment of our performance and desire in the Amlin, when we can't even compete in the Amlin anyway! The HC is wasted on us! When we've been in the HC more often than not we've just been embarrassed. We had our best cup run in the Amlin - semi finals a few years back - so for me yes we need to try our best in the league for the sake of the fans, backers, players, etc. but until we can prove that we're Amlin material then we can't really be aiming for the HC. Maybe a change to HC qualification will change things (for the better IMO, even if it means less welsh teams in the HC).

glamorganalun wrote:The young wing is a waste of space for the dragons, just given away a second try, why not sub him?

Robinson is running this game.

I think the only reason they picked Amos was that he won the game for the dragons against wasps last time they played. Not working out for him this time though!

Why give the ball to Roblin to kick the ball 10y rads when Prydie is on the pitch

I'm not suggesting that we're at any disadvantage to wasps, or that wasps are not at full strength, sorry if you got that impression

No was just saying that both coaches are seeing it as a chance to rotate. With only a small proportion of money given for tournament progression they probably don't see much point. Though it could guarentee them the more lucrative HEC next year if they won the cup.

glamorganalun wrote:Why give the ball to Roblin to kick the ball 10y rads when Prydie is on the pitch

This is one of my gripes really; Prydie has been one of our stars this season, relatively speaking, and we chuck him on with 15 minutes left. Rubbish!

Very strange selections and substitutions for this game.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I'm not suggesting that we're at any disadvantage to wasps, or that wasps are not at full strength, sorry if you got that impression

No was just saying that both coaches are seeing it as a chance to rotate. With only a small proportion of money given for tournament progression they probably don't see much point. Though it could guarentee them the more lucrative HEC next year if they won the cup.

Ah, OK I get you. Yes, that may be a good explanation. However like I said, in Wales the money seems to go to the WRU and split evenly regardless of which competition you play in. I just think/hope that we'd try our best in something! We don't seem to do well in a league that's often accused of having teams resting and rotating all the time. If we don't give Europe a good bash then what are we focusing on?!

Sloppy play by 18 year old Amos, but luckily finished off by 17 year old Dixon. Hopefully Drags can push on for a fourth try so they don't go home empty handed.

Homer ref is ruining any chance of that elusive fourth try. Oh well.

Is it time to get shot of Edwards?

If he keeps doing stuff like this throughout the season, yeah. Tonights team should have been the XV to play the Italians at home, not Wasps away.

Robinson definitely looks behind Jones for the Wasps' 10 spot, he's not convinced this season, decision making hasn't been on point and generally sloppy, that was a terrible attempt at tidying up resulting in a Dragons try.

glamorganalun wrote:Is it time to get shot of Edwards?

Alun,

I posted early wasnt overly convinced when Edwards was appointed and always thought Kingsley Jones should have been brought in or at least an approach made etc.

Thing is if Edwards was to go then who would come in or more to point who could we afford to get and he would still have same players/budget

He was referring to the rotation of players since the season kicked off (like I was), not to the players or budget.

For the Dragons fans. Great bunch.

Wasps won the back row battle hands down, and got very quick go forward ball off their own possession at the breakdown.

I do agree that Edwards should have fielded a stronger team, because Wasps have been poor defensively this season.

Watch out for Joe Launchbury. If he stays free of injury, he will become some player.

Good to see the likes of stephen jones, nicky robinson, lee thomas, rhys thomas, not to mention dai young and shane howarth doing their bit for welsh rugby i.e. bolcking the pathways for aspiring young english internationals.

Scrumdown wrote:Good to see the likes of stephen jones, nicky robinson, lee thomas, rhys thomas, not to mention dai young and shane howarth doing their bit for welsh rugby i.e. bolcking the pathways for aspiring young english internationals.

God you Welsh always have to bring up Shane Howarth in every debate dont you

Scrumdown wrote:Good to see the likes of stephen jones, nicky robinson, lee thomas, rhys thomas, not to mention dai young and shane howarth doing their bit for welsh rugby i.e. bolcking the pathways for aspiring young english internationals.

Nice attempt at a WUM! Seriously though, can't see that wasps are doing anything different than other English sides like Saracens, etc. by playing overseas players and thus 'blocking' local talent. Or am I missing something?

Unless you're welsh scrumdown? In which case, nice one!

Griff wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:Good to see the likes of stephen jones, nicky robinson, lee thomas, rhys thomas, not to mention dai young and shane howarth doing their bit for welsh rugby i.e. bolcking the pathways for aspiring young english internationals.

Nice attempt at a WUM! Seriously though, can't see that wasps are doing anything different than other English sides like Saracens, etc. by playing overseas players and thus 'blocking' local talent. Or am I missing something?

Yawn., Its been done to death. The fact is theres 12 Jeff clubs plus another tier of professional teams. even if 50% of those players are non qualified ( its less) that still leaves as many slots as the Welsh and scottish sides combined ( assuming they didnt have any non qualified/semi retired) players in too. England and France have more clubs and more players than most other Unions. The problem doesnt lie in blocking the 7th best player in every position from getting a game. It comes from the top 2 or 3 being no better than their Welsh/Irish counterparts.

Seabiscuit, I thought he was having a pop at the welsh for invading their league and blocking English development or a pop at the RFU for allowing it. I agree with you. Plenty of space for English development with 12 teams.

Scrumdown wrote:Good to see the likes of stephen jones, nicky robinson, lee thomas, rhys thomas, not to mention dai young and shane howarth doing their bit for welsh rugby i.e. bolcking the pathways for aspiring young english internationals.

Sore loser?

I'm happy to have the Welsh lads but Wasps do more than their fair share in bringing youngsters through a very good academy. Lee,Rhys & Nicky are good squad players probably not first choice but certainly don't block the lads coming through.
I guess 12 clubs in the Premiership allows such 'luxuries'.

Good to see the likes of stephen jones, nicky robinson, lee thomas, rhys thomas, not to mention dai young and shane howarth doing their bit for welsh rugby i.e. bolcking the pathways for aspiring young english internationals.

Only Stephen Jones would be first choice. Lee Thomas is behind Daly a young English centre normally and Thomas is playing second fiddle to a young English hooker.

"Plenty of space for English development with 12 teams"

WOULD SOMEBODY PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS TO THE WRU!!!!!!!

Do the math, we're not even competitve enough with 4.

EXACTLY!!!!!

The difference in Wales is that we can't afford more than 4 regions. In England they have backers/business leaders who can afford it, and that then allows space to give English players a chance and to afford marquee players from overseas. If we went back to 12 teams on a shoestring we'd not be able to attract any overseas players due to lack of funds and would have to rely on players from as low as the 2nd division to fill the squads. That would just be embarrassing. As said already, we can't compete with 4. We'll be worse with 5 (IMO). Lets not even think about 12. Unless 12 billionaires suddenly take a liking to Wales.

Griff

You mean we would only be able to afford poor relations of NWQ players, a bit like the regions have at the minute?!

And are you saying if we can't afford poor NWQ players we will look to within? Rising the quality of WQ players all over wales?

Also we would not be able to compete in europe like we do now?

At present the regions are glorified (prof) prem teams who are not competitive in europe in any which way shape or form, we have poor NWQ players across the board and are paying them a fortune. We don't have any real depth in the national team, 1 or 2 key injuries put us in a bad position.

The regions were a great short term fix, they put a lot of WQ players together to form super clubs but now the lure away from Wales is too great and the regions are nowhere near what they were.

Having only 4 academies in our nation is nowhere near enough, we arent producing players at anywhere near the rate needed to compete with the best (like we ever did) and weve already lost a lot of history and heritage in the last decade, club rugby is as low as it's ever been in wales and is on the verge of extinction... FACT.

There is something rather satisfying about watching a dragons v wasps match with 17 welsh players in the starting xvs and only 7 englishman and both teams coached by welshmen.

Similarly in the blues v sale match there were 15 welsh players and only 7 english players. In the scarlets v clermont match there were 7 french and 14 welshmen in the starting xvs.

There is no doubt that when the bt money kicks in, the welsh regions are likely to lose even more of their top talent to english clubs. However, as long as the welsh regions keep their nerve and continue to invest in their academies I can see welsh rugby emerging stronger than ever at international level.

Scrumdown

Can you name which exiled players you saw on display in those 3 games contribute to the national squad?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Scrumdown

Can you name which exiled players you saw on display in those 3 games contribute to the national squad?

I think the regions deserve some sympathy. They continue to produce players of international and lions class and I don't think we can expect anymore from them given their limited financial resources.

I don't really see the relevance of your question. Whilst some of the exiled welsh players may not be of use to the national team, their absence still both weakens our regions and strengthens the opposition from France and England. There are now nearly 30 welsh players plying their trade in the AVIVA and another 7 or 8 in France.

I agree with you fully scrumdown, whereas in reality these exiled players arent helping the international game, the club game is dying and we don't have any real quality outside of our national team players.

Imagine a blues side with all the talent it produced...

Gill (arguably) Yapp
Thomas
Jenkins (arguably)
Davies
???
Warburton
Pretorious
Delve
Rees
Robinson
Cuthbert
Thomas
Roberts
James
1/2p

Whole different animal to the team out today!!

Thats the reasoning behind wanting a prof prem again, keep players like Robinson, Gill, Delve etc.. in wales by offering them more than just money, but rivalries, tradition, pride in your city etc.. like the Irish!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Griff

You mean we would only be able to afford poor relations of NWQ players, a bit like the regions have at the minute?!

And are you saying if we can't afford poor NWQ players we will look to within? Rising the quality of WQ players all over wales?

Also we would not be able to compete in europe like we do now?

At present the regions are glorified (prof) prem teams who are not competitive in europe in any which way shape or form, we have poor NWQ players across the board and are paying them a fortune. We don't have any real depth in the national team, 1 or 2 key injuries put us in a bad position.

The regions were a great short term fix, they put a lot of WQ players together to form super clubs but now the lure away from Wales is too great and the regions are nowhere near what they were.

Having only 4 academies in our nation is nowhere near enough, we arent producing players at anywhere near the rate needed to compete with the best (like we ever did) and weve already lost a lot of history and heritage in the last decade, club rugby is as low as it's ever been in wales and is on the verge of extinction... FACT.

Your first question: we'd afford even less. The regions are cash strapped enough as it is with 4 of us, with a reported £6m from the WRU (£1.5m each shall we say). Going back to 12 would give us £500,000 each. That's 2 good players these days. How do you build a competitive squad with that? Don't say through gate receipts because the gates were not much better with club sides than they are with regions. Also, we'd have to leave the Pro 12 as there would be far too many teams so these 12 teams and their players would only get exposure against, erm, themselves. Therefore they wouldn't grow and improve and it would just be basically the welsh prem that we have now. No stars as we couldn't afford their current wages with 500k.

Your 2nd question. We'd be even less able to compete in Europe, that's just obvious. If we did manage to keep the current stars somehow, but spread them out over 12 teams then we'd have to fill the rest of the spaces with dross from the premiership and beyond. Look where that gets the Dragons. Would be even worse spread over 12 teams. Just my opinion but, although we're not great in Europe now (I mean the welsh regions in general) we'd be far worse with the players spread over 3 times more teams. That's just logic (although I admit that logic doesn't always follow in sport). Imagine the blues had to palm off a 2/3 of their best players to some of the new teams in your proposed revived 12 team welsh prem. Europe would be a slaughterhouse. You'd keep, say, Jamie Roberts and Warburton but would lose Halfpenny, Bradley Davies, Harry Robinson, Pretorius, Lloyd Williams, etc. Who knows? I'm guessing. But with such limited funding you couldn't keep them all. You'd have to replace them with £20,000 a year players from the lower leagues to fill the gaps. Great for exposure, but you end up giving pro contracts to players who are not pro level. Look to the Dragons for proof that that doesn't work. It doesn't get wins. It doesn't get European progression. It doesn't put bums on seats. It does initiate a downward spiral, though.

Not wanting to copy anyone, but when money is tight I think we can't go too wrong with a similar system to the current international world champs (NZ with 5 teams), perrenial world number 2s South Africa with 4 (or is it 5 now?), top 3 constants Australia (4) and the best performing nation in European club rugby in the last decade (Ireland with 4).

"Going back to 12 would give us £500,000 each. That's 2 good players these days. How do you build a competitive squad with that? Don't say through gate receipts because the gates were not much better with club sides than they are with regions"

Firstly comparing the clubs of the amateur era to the prof regions of today is like comparing North with Ieuan Evans, amateur v prof is never a fair comparison. Also with todays advances in advertising, and sales techniques compiled with galvanising the welsh population IMO crowds would be higher than they are now!

Regarding compatitiveness, your right, in europe we would suffer short term, but we wouldn't be competing solely in europe, first and foremost we would be competing with ourselves, so 500k would be more like 5 key players not 2, if central contracts introduced correctly 2 int players per team, so IMO each club would have 7 key players to build around.

The premiership 'dross' as you call it is amateur (semi) by making the prem players professional they would improve within weeks, and you mention the dragons but they are on a shoestring and are financially viable. Plus they barely took a representitive team Gwent players meaning the dragons could split into 2 teams without any real quality in performance loss.

My point is lesser players who compete with their rivals week in week out improve, massively. Competition breeds competition!!!

You say Blues couldn't compete as say Cardiff rfc, but by losing Borrust, Fillise, Kryciou, Lloyd Williams, Roberts you could give the likes of Andrews, Dacey, Jones, Allen gametime week in week out, and if they compete against players like Roberts Williams etc they would improve quicker.

Your points regarding copying NZ and SA are ok, but their super teams are based on a very strong club competition in the ITM and Currie cup, where some of their best players play.

Also the Irish national side doesn't compete with sanzar so why imitate the best int teams mixed with club teams? The reason the Irish teams are so strong is a budget and a tradition for playing for your province. irish players have a connection to their provinces, in which werent made up a few years ago like the welsh regions, if the players dont identify with the club they play for why would they not leave for the highest bidder?

Made up fake regions give the players no sense of pride, eliminates any tradition the club game had in wales and is now responsible for the mess our club game is in!!!

Each to their own. You've already said that pro players who don't make the grade at other regions can't make the grade at the Dragons. So why would semi pro players from the premiership suddenly 'improve within weeks'?

Improve the welsh prem, yes (to compare with the NZ ITM would be great). But not at the expense of the regions. Not for me sorry.

I remember before the regions I was stood on the sidelines at Rodney Parade watching Newport v top European teams. Towards the end (of 12 team pro rugby) we needed to draft in a number of dubious characters. We had the likes of Gerald Arasa on the wing, Alex Cadwallader on the other. Who? Exactly! now that is proper 'overseas dross'! Players not anywhere near standard. But we had to draft in all and sundry as there were so few quality players to span 12 teams. What has changed in the last 10 years to make this problem any different? Yes, they went about it the wrong way. I would have preferred 4 new stand alone stadia to be built in neutral areas, and the country to be split into 4 equal parts with East Wales Penguins, South Wales Schmucks, West Wales Herbert's and North Wales Gogs. But it didn't. They got the split/representation wrong. But they didn't get the number wrong in my opinion. We had to consolidate. 12 wasnt sustainable then and I can't see how it would be now. Even less so now actually.

Theyd improve from professional strength and conditioning, theyd improve by dedicating their career to the sport, the mindset that your performance IS your career, theyd improve with nutritionists, dieticians, physios on hand, professional recovery etc etc, not to mention the 3x more academy set ups to bring more players through to the prem.

I would actually like to see a set up where the prem is totally prof, and maybe a selection process for regional rugby come HC time. We get the best of both worlds, the numbers, rivalries, away following of the prem with the Lions type excitement of HC regional selction etc...

"What has changed in the last 10 years to make this problem any different?"

Right now there are approximately 120 players in the Dragons academy spanning U16's17's and 18's and thats not including the senior academy boys 18+. The potential numbers today are huge and if every Prem team had an academy the playing numbers could go through the roof, there would be little need for NWQ players in the prem (as I said europe would have to be sacrificed initially) but as competitiveness for places grew in each prem side then the need for NWQ would be even less. The aim should be for us to mimic where the Aviva prem is now but without so many NWQ players!!!

I agree on the welsh prem. would love it to be pro. That should be the aspiration. How you afford it I don't know. Pros won't work for nothing!

A couple of other points though. Firstly, you mention the 120 16, 17, 18 yr old academy players and the senior academy players. Remember, the senior academy players are found by whittling down from the u 16, 17, 18s. They're the best available from those age groups. So we don't have 120 players. We had 120 good players at age grade but only 1 squad worth is deemed good enough to step up to the senior squad. And even less are able to make a jump to regional level. Saying 120 players plus senior academy are available gives a misleading picture. Like saying that in Gwent we have thousands of school kids doing PE lessons so we should have loads of academy players!

Also, they wouldn't have all of the physio, conditioning, coaching that you mention as there are not enough top coaches! Just as we can't magic up enough quality players for 12 teams, we can't magic up pro level coaches or fitness experts either. And we can't afford to buy them in either. We haven't got enough good coaches for 4 teams let alone 12!

Yes, I agree that the English championship is a good way to go. But again it is funding. Most teams pay their players as pros with full contracts. Hence our boys are going there to play. Where would we get the money from?

Just wanted to add Bluesman that I don't think you're wrong necessarily, just I don't think what you have in mind is achievable. I know I keep mentioning it but money is such a big factor, and no money and more teams = less quality unfortunately.

Firstly mate your right, the senior is the best of the age grade, but there is a full age grade and senior at every region...

The best of may be picked, but from what I see for every player chosen there is one who could make it, whittling down could be less fussy, if not a bit riskier.

IMO you could pick 10 players plus every other year from an academy. 2/3 hot prospects, 5/6 prospects and 5/6 wildcards, and that is per club. Academies are more than capable of providing prof clubs teams every year, it just means more players are exposed to professional rugby every year.

Regarding coaches and fitness experts, everyone outside of the first team and senior academy is a volunteer. Students come out of the woodwork every year to learn and work with professional clubs, from physios to Strength and conditioners even level 3/4 coaches volunteer to coach teams. Mate Ive been there done that and youd be amazed at the number of student, volunteer opportunities that are sought after by lots of people, and only the best are asked to help.

Again more coaches exposed to a higher level of rugby = better coaches and better depth!!!

I understand the money issue is key, but IMO thats just an excuse that can be over come with some thourough research and finding willing people.

I know what you're saying, but the current argument is that we haven't got good enough quality coaches in welsh rugby. The talent is not there. Getting students involved is not going to help in my opinion. What experience of the pro game do students have? Great learning curve for them though, but not at the pro level thank you (and I'm a sports science graduate of old). Imagine Man Utd bringing in a student as an assistant coach! No chance. Start at Forrest Green, move up to Stockport, then to Millwall, then to Man Utd if you're good enough. Not sure why I'm using a football example, but sport is sport. Learn at grass roots then progress if you're good enough. Not before.

I am actually involved in a U15 dragons summer camp each yer where the players are 'whittled down' into an under 16 squad. A lot of the u15's don't even want to know, are completely out of their depth, a lot are too unfit, etc. So, whittling down is a natural and correct process in identifying talent. Putting the whole lot through will not make the region have greater depth. Greater numbers, yes. But not greater depth.

I don't mean at the top table, but in the subsiduary roles. I can name a dozen Level 3 coaches at the dragons who currently volunteer for differing clubs and their region who would love the chance to step up!!

Which group you involved with, last few season I was with U14's programmes, Dewar sheild and U16/17's. At U16's level you can tell the difference between the top players and not, but they all receive the conditioning and there is no such thing as a 'weak' player.

At Dewar sheild your right, the forwards tend to be lumps who have matured early, but then there are about 100 players per region at that level alone so the gap is going to be higher.

Not involved at a coaching level, just i've coordinated a summer camp at Newport Uni where I work for the last 5 yeas or so. 100 of the best U15 players from the region come down for a few days of fitness assessment, nutrition advice, lectures on time management, etc. They get their first set of fitness data such as 40m sprint time, 10m sprint time, vo2max data, etc. they take that with them through age grade if successful. Obviously other lads join in future from different avenues, but the best from this group are identified by the coaches and progress on to U16 level.

hahahaha apart from this season I was doing the testing mate. Just graduated from the uni too...

Ha! Good stuff! I was project coordinator for a Welsh assembly funded project that looked at getting more people into higher education. We funded the project I think for the last 7 years as a good way of getting lads into Uni, but at the same time building links with the WRU/Dragons. I remember Jack Dixon being one of the lads! Heads and shoulders above everyone, literally!

Yep, worked with Dixon a bit in the gym, every other kid was profiling and he was on his own set proframme... MONSTER!!