British and Irish Lions Watch 2012-13

First topic message reminder :

This thread started many months back and has been a gradual examination of who is picking who for the impending Lions Tour.

Now the Six Nations is over and all we have left to judge is the HEC and the various national leagues.

Warburton isn't even a factor at the moment. He needs to step up his game massively at International level. He is a shadow of the player he was a year ago.

Robshaw is a good leader but an average openside. An England backrow of Robshaw at 6 and Armitage at 7 with Easter at 8 would be far more efficient at the moment.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Sky -

Lions head coach Warren Gatland will have been an interested observer of Saturday's games at the Millennium Stadium and Twickenham - although the form of Wales will have perturbed him.

A number of players put their hands up for selection for the tour - and although there is still a long way to go skysports.com names its Lions XV based on the weekend's games.

15 Stuart Hogg (Scotland)



The Scotland full-back attacked with vim and vigour and gave England a torrid time. Got slightly lucky with his try - where he almost shinned the ball out - but it was well deserved for all his efforts.

14 Chris Ashton (England)



The 25-year-old has got his swagger back and took his try - his 17th for England - well. He went searching for the ball throughout and got stuck in.

13 Brian O'Driscoll (Ireland)



The Irishman was clearly hurt at losing the captaincy but he took his anger out on the Welsh. He scored one of the easiest tries of his career and showed sublime hands for Simon Zebo's score.

12 Billy Twelvetrees (England)



A try-scoring debut for the young centre will have given Stuart Lancaster a selection headache. Twelvetrees ran hard at the Scotland defence and slotted in as the second receiver with ease.

11 Simon Zebo (Ireland)



All the attention might have been on wing partner Craig Gilroy however it is the Munster man that stole the show. A try and then a simply amazing piece of skill - seeing him dubbed a 'freak' by Quade Cooper - will have increased his stock.

10 Owen Farrell (England)



The 21-year-old seems to get better and better each time he plays. There have never been any doubts over his kicking but he silenced those that have questioned his attacking abilities by carving open the Scots, including a scintillating pass for Geoff Parling's try

9 Ben Youngs (England)



The Leicester man has risen to the challenge emanating from Danny Care. His passing had a certain zip about it - with an absolute peach for Twelvetrees to score - while he was always looking for a gap in the Scotland defence.

1 Cian Healy (Ireland)



Helped take apart the all British and Irish Lions Welsh front-row in the scrums in Cardiff. His work rate around the park was second-to-none while he crossed for his second Test try.

2 Rory Best (Ireland)



Was simply awesome in Cardiff and was seemingly everywhere. The sin-binning will have blotted his copybook but he did his best to make amends with some big hits in defence.

3 Dan Cole (England)



It is hard to think that Cole is just 25 however he has emerged as one of the world's top tighthead props. Superb in the scrum and pilfers better than a lot of back-rows.

4 Andrew Coombs (Wales)



Another player who had a debut to remember, the Dragons lock took his chance - as well as plenty of lineout ball - with both hands. He made the hard yards with the ball in hand as well to make light of Wales' second row woes.

5 Mike McCarthy (Ireland)



The Connacht second row was a solid brick in the Irish defence as Wales through everything at Ireland in the second half. He tackled himself to a standstill and is staking a serious claim to be involved with the Lions.

6 Tom Wood (England)



Wood is arguably England's best No 6 since Richard Hill. Covered every blade of grass at Twickenham and got stuck in on the deck to disrupt Scotland's hopes.

7 Sean O'Brien (Ireland)



The Leinster man completely outclassed opposite number Sam Warburton at the Millennium Stadium. He made the hard yards with the ball in hand while his defensive efforts were heroic.

8 Toby Faletau (Wales)



The powerhouse No 8 was one of the few Welsh players to emerge from Cardiff with his reputation intact. Was a constant threat going forward.

Thats a pretty similar verdict everyone elses.

I would be very surprised if Armitage got selected. Yes he is having a very good year but having failed a drugs test in 2012 and he doesnt always have the best attitude it seems.

Also lets not forget that he plays 7 for probably the biggest pack in the NH with Toulon who have such monsters as Botha, Lobbe, Van Nikerk, Sheridan, Jenkins, Masoe, Haymans. I think you will agree it doesnt get much bigger than that.

SL doesnt rate him as International class and Im not convinced either. Tipuric is an International we will no doubt we will see a lot more of. Armitage we will not. Simple as that really.

GunsGerms

He failed the drugs test for taking prescription Codeine which was given to him by the team doctor. Shouldn't even be mentioned.

Tipuric and Armitage play in similar style club sides hence the example.

fa0019 wrote:MM

No, I'm suggesting their are specific reasons for his performance... i.e. the game play and the 1 man down for the last 20 mins... as well as being fully fresh from then on where all the other backrow forwards were knackered.

I'm not saying he didn't seem to appear to play well and didn't play well.

If he starts vs. FRA lets see how he does.

I myself think the lions 7 jersey should go to Robshaw anyhow at the moment.... I think he does massive work on the floor and has "real" leadership qualities (unlike Warburton who I think struggles with the job), his tackle rate also is immense.

If England win the 6N Robshaw will probably get the captaincy and 7 spot by default, however, not because he is the best 7 out there but because he really is captain material and will have earned it. Thats how I feel anyway. He is a good all rounder but not a classic 7.

fa0019 wrote:GunsGerms

He failed the drugs test for taking prescription Codeine which was given to him by the team doctor. Shouldn't even be mentioned.

Tipuric and Armitage play in similar style club sides hence the example.

Fair enough on both points. Still Im quite surprised you would rate him a better 7 than Tipuric. Armitage is better in the loose but Tipuric is a brilliant poacher at the breakdown.

I don't see why the lions need a play to go head to head with Pocock anyhow... in either way you lose so whats the point.

SA haven't played with a proper openside for years... probably since Krige (outside of the ELV crazy 09 year of Brussow). That hasn't stopped them compete with Pocock and McCaw.

Robshaw is more in the mould of Moody, Hill, O'Brien etc... who are similar to Burger & Louw (who both have had success against the ANZAC nations).

The things is guns, we have got tons of these good 6s or 6-7s in these islands. There really aren't that many outstanding pure 7s around. England alone have Croft, Wood, Haskell and Robshaw (and Tom Johnson, come to that). You've got O'M, O'B and Ferris, Scotland have Brown. Ironically, Wales have arguably got the only 2 pure 7s likely to see much game time this championship (unless Scotland decide that Brown has to play 6). Whatever we take to Aus, the Lions are probably going to end up picking two 6s for the Test side, I would guess. If Wales continue to struggle, that is going to be the case with bells on.

Perhaps we've got to start thinking in terms of a "left and right" flanker system, rather than trying to add an ingredient that we don't really have.

Although gatland did state he might struggle to find a place for robshaw because he wanted specialist 7's.....

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:GunsGerms

He failed the drugs test for taking prescription Codeine which was given to him by the team doctor. Shouldn't even be mentioned.

Tipuric and Armitage play in similar style club sides hence the example.

Fair enough on both points. Still Im quite surprised you would rate him a better 7 than Tipuric. Armitage is better in the loose but Tipuric is a brilliant poacher at the breakdown.

Armitage and Tipuric are the type of flankers that Gats wants. He already stated he wasn't interested in a 6.5 type lad like Robshaw.

Not necessarly Captain C. Wales had the most tourists last time despite finishing 4th in the '09 6N.

Well Ireland and England don't have opensides who look to be the form sides this year .... so does that mean that Gatland will pick players from Wales and Scotland (assuming form continues and they perform badly throughout).

fa0019 wrote:Well Ireland and England don't have opensides who look to be the form sides this year .... so does that mean that Gatland will pick players from Wales and Scotland (assuming form continues and they perform badly throughout).

My guess is yes.

if that is the case and the scenario then I think the lions will be battered.

I also think that when Gatland said that he was still confident Warburton would turn it around.

DT post NZ game on Robshaw


'By Wednesday he was seemingly being shunted into the margins of Lions selection by the head coach himself, Warren Gatland, who figured that he needed a specialist openside to contend with top-of-the-ground Australian breakaways such as David Pocock and Michael Hooper.
And now? Well, how much longer do we have to persist with the notion that Robshaw is not a specialist openside flanker? He has played in that position for Harlequins for the last three seasons.
He has worn No7 on his back in every one of the 12 Test matches played under Stuart Lancaster.
He has regularly topped chart rankings for best tackler, best contributor in the contact area, most carries, most involvements, being the nicest all-round guy on planet rugby ... you get the picture.
On Saturday he was up against Richie McCaw, the eminence grise of the breakdown, a cerebral warrior of the tackle. Again, it was Robshaw’s day: clever, tough, busy and productive. What else does he have to do?

Robshaw deserves more. He is patronised by so many, praised for being willing and honest, unflinching but somehow limited. England would not have managed to do what they did on Saturday if that is all that he has to offer.
Robshaw is a live contender for the No 7 Lions shirt and with it the captaincy.
Admittedly, there is a long run to the tape; a Six Nations Championship to get through with body as well as reputation intact.
If Robshaw performs as he has done this last four weeks then he will have pushed himself to the front of the queue. '

Indeed Gareth Edwards himself has tipped Robshaw to be Lions captain if Warburton failed to find his form. If his form continues in the 6Ns & to be frank it would be a turn up if it didn't, because he has been performing like this all season, he will have pushed himself to the front of the queue.

fa0019 wrote:if that is the case and the scenario then I think the lions will be battered.

I have never been so confident that the Lions will win a test series than this one. If they dont then they might as well just scrap it because Australia have weaknesses which the Lions have the players to exploit. Australia are also well versed at losing to NH sides lately so surely a combination of the best NH sides should be too much for them.

fa0019, no doubt you were mesmurised by Drico's performance on Saturday and have thoroughly changed your mind on who was better BOD or Guscott. :-)

To be fair Gatlands comments were made pre NZ game.
If things continue as they are then more of the chaps like Robshaw will force their way in (espec if Lydiate hasnt played much) and flumps like Warburton will have to wake up to prove they are worth that spot and that going with two 6.5s isnt the better option.

Surely now days the whole pack does the work anyway?

Look at Best, Hartley, Cole, Marler, Healy, Wood, Haskell, the Franks bro's, Adam Jones etc they all win as much turnover ball individually as any other 7's do. Then you have BOD as well who loves a turn over or two per game, plus if Sextons in at 10 then the choke tackle becomes a real dangerous weapon too.

So before we look at 7 for Lions you'll potentially have ball stealers in Healy, Best, Cole/Jones and BOD.

I really don't see the panic about it having to be the guy with the 7 on his back.

yappysnap wrote:Surely now days the whole pack does the work anyway?

Look at Best, Hartley, Cole, Marler, Healy, Wood, Haskell, the Franks bro's, Adam Jones etc they all win as much turnover ball individually as any other 7's do. Then you have BOD as well who loves a turn over or two per game, plus if Sextons in at 10 then the choke tackle becomes a real dangerous weapon too.

So before we look at 7 for Lions you'll potentially have ball stealers in Healy, Best, Cole/Jones and BOD.

I really don't see the panic about it having to be the guy with the 7 on his back.

More poachers the better...! I would rather have a few good poachers as mentioned above, plus a Tipuric than not.

Western Mails Lions Watch team after round 1

Halfpenny
Ashton
BOD
36
Zebo
Farrell
Youngs
Healy
Best
Cole
Parling
Launchbury
SOB
Robshaw
Beattie

Hadf it on another article, but I think Best should be Lions captain.

He's pretty much got the hooker shirt for the lions, he's a proven leader,
Heaslip, Robshaw, Warburton are not guarenteed starters, whereas Best is.

Best took over the Ireland captaincy last year durning the 6 nations ahead of Jamie Heaslip when BoD and PoC (the last two lions captains) were injured, and I think the reason DK went with Heaslip over Best for the Ireland captaincy is down to age, and Best is maybe not going to be first choice in 2015 where Healsip is more likiley to be starting.

But for the Lions tour Best is at his peak, been in great form since the world cup, is a proven leader, and the only player at present that is nearly sure to be starting with leadership qualties.

Best for Lions Captain?

As someone else said Bests performance was the greatest performance of a hooker since Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman. He was incredible and surely must be nailed on Lions starter. Not sure about captain but they might as well measure him up now.

GunsGerms wrote:As someone else said Bests performance was the greatest performance of a hooker since Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman. He was incredible and surely must be nailed on Lions starter. Not sure about captain but they might as well measure him up now.

Best and Heaslip as well as BOD would be the three names most at the front of the list in my opinion.

If BOD continues to play as well as he did on SAturday, he is unrivalled.

Yeah BOD has a real chance to take the captaincy given that effectively he hasnt had it before and he seems to be playing out of his skin.

I cannot see how BOD can be captain as is is not a certain starter.

Exiledinborders wrote:I cannot see how BOD can be captain as is is not a certain starter.

BOD can play 12 or 13. If the best centres at the moment are BOD and Tuilagi then why not pick them both?

BOD has actually gone on record (look at the video interviews on the Lions website) to say that unless he thinks the team can win the test series, he doesn't want to go. He doesn't want to have the record of being on a tour 3 times without a series victory.

I'm not sure how that is going to work in practice, mind you...

Ill tell you how its going to work in practice. BOD will play his last ever test match in a series winning Lions side. There is no question of that.

From Todays Telegraph

By Brendan Gallagher

Fitness and form is what counts and that is of course why the Six Nations remains the most important selectorial guide for the British and Irish Lions, the closest Test match rugby before the date of departure.

And what have we learnt after the first weekend of the Six Nations, other than two or three Italians would certainly be valuable additions to the squad if ever the Home Unions want to adopt them?

It's rugby's loss that we shall never see Sergio Parisse going toe to toe with the southern hemisphere giants on equal terms. But in the meantime he continues to do a magnificent job inspiring his fast improving Italian team.

On the subject of leaders, my £20 punt on Brian O'Driscoll captaining the Lions touring party, an investment I made the moment I heard his ankle operation had been successful in December, is looking good value.

There is not a lot more you can say about the greatest rugby player of the modern era except perhaps that to these eyes he is lighter and leaner than at any time since his early days at the turn of the Millennium.

Critics insist his pace has gone and I doubt if he will ever sprint 60 yards for a try again, but look at that score he made for Simon Zebo in Cardiff in real time. Not only was it a wondrous pass but the way he just dabbed the accelerator was very impressive.

In my opinion his captaincy is a no-brainer. There are very few certainties for Warren Gatland's Lions side but O'Driscoll is one and after having his reign as the Lions captain ruined after 40 seconds in 2005 by the wanton thuggery of Kevan Mealamu and Tana Umaga there won't be a more motivated sportsman on the planet come June.

Elsewhere it's all to play for. Leigh Halfpenny was my pick, just, at fullback over the weekend but Rob Kearney and Stuart Hogg were both excellent. This is a real position of massive strength for the Lions because Alex Goode will also mount a serious challenge in the coming weeks.

My wings are the hungry-again Chris Ashton and Ireland's new boy wonder Simon Zebo. The former is really beginning to motor again and the latter is a breath of fresh air on and off the pitch.

He's having fun and we should just sit back and enjoy whatever he comes up with next. Alex Cuthbert continues to impress and Craig Gilroy is another to watch. George North has it all to do, he's gone a bit quiet but no better place than to explode back into action than Paris on Saturday.

Alongside BOD in midfield I would still put Manu Tuilagi assuming he returns to action fully fit but Gordon D'Arcy is still going great guns and there were signs at the Millennium Stadium that Jonathan Davies is hitting his straps again.

I want to see a bit more of Billy Twelvetrees at this level before any rash predictions but he has made a very decent start to his international career.
Fly-half? Tough call but it's still Jonny Sexton for me - just - although Owen Farrell is breathing down his neck. What a showdown that will be on Sunday, it already has the feel of a final eliminator.

My scrum-half pick has been Danny Care but I happily accept that Ben Youngs is buzzing and has possibly nudged ahead again. In fairness to Care he will find it difficult to challenge unless he gets a start sooner rather than later.

Mike Phillips is one of my favourite players – the player of the series in 2009 in South Africa – but needs a kick up the proverbial. He has gone way too French and laissez faire for my liking and has it all to do. Look out for Conor Murray who is doing little wrong for Ireland.

Up front I see Cian Healey and Rory Best as straight forward picks at present although Tom Youngs and Richard Hibbard will keep Best honest while Dan Cole has nudged ahead of Adam Jones as the other prop.

Jones needs plenty of rugby to keep in shape and will get better as the tournament progresses. Second row remains very fluid. Donnacha Ryan is the standout for me with England's Geoff Parling and Joe Launchbury both snapping at his heels.

Richie Gray was very good in the loose on Saturday and that will come into play in Australia but ideally I would like to see a bit more in the tight from the big Scot. Again all to play for.

Back row is unplayable at present, a selectors nightmare but in a good way. The two stand out sevens on Saturday were Sean O'Brien and Chris Robshaw, neither of whom you would term a classic open side.

In Australia whoever gets the nod will be going up against either David Pockock or Michael Hooper, classic tearaways. Sam Warburton was more than useful for Wales against Ireland but his side looked so much more fluent when Justin Tipuric (below) started roaming in the wide spaces in the second half.

At number six Tom Wood is my choice but Ireland's Peter O'Mahony is getting better with every game and coming up fast on the blindside so to speak. Again another massive tete a tete on Sunday.

Finally Jamie Heaslip is just about holding onto that No 8 spot but it was good to see Toby Faletau back to his best against the Irish and very heartening to see Jonnie Beattie shrug off a couple of injury plagued years with a cracking performance against England.

He will only get better so Heaslip and Faletau will have to respond.

Brendan Gallagher's Lions XV, as of February 4 2013:

Leigh Halfpenny (Wales); Chris Ashton (England), Brian O'Driscoll (Ireland, capt), Manu Tuilagi (England), Simon Zebo (Ireland), Jonny Sexton (Ireland), Ben Youngs (England), Cian Healy (Ireland), Rory Best (Ireland), Dan Cole (England), Donnacha Ryan (Ireland), Joe Launchbury (England), Tom Wood (England), Sean O'Brien (Ireland), Jamie Heaslip (Ireland).

I'll have some of whatever Brendan has been puffing on. "Cuthbert continues to impress" - I thought he was caught out defensively far too often? "Jonathan Davies is hitting his straps again" - one of my fave players, but he spent more time hitting the advertising boards with loose passes than hitting straps. "Sam Warburton was more than useful" - depends on your definition of useful, but it wouldn't fit with mine I feel slightly bad picking out three glaring examples that are all Welsh, not intended to be that way, just felt they were Gallacher's most wide of the mark comments

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I'll have some of whatever Brendan has been puffing on. "Cuthbert continues to impress" - I thought he was caught out defensively far too often? "Jonathan Davies is hitting his straps again" - one of my fave players, but he spent more time hitting the advertising boards with loose passes than hitting straps. "Sam Warburton was more than useful" - depends on your definition of useful, but it wouldn't fit with mine I feel slightly bad picking out three glaring examples that are all Welsh, not intended to be that way, just felt they were Gallacher's most wide of the mark comments

Read my mind there, he must have watched last years game on ESPN classics!

Yes don't think this clown watched the Wales Ireland test

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Yes don't think this clown watched the Wales Ireland test

[center]

I don't agree with some of his comments either but the team is a fair shout on recent performances.

I'd love to see BOD at 13 with any of Twelvetrees, Roberts and JDv2 next to him dependent on form. If Roberts and JDv2 continue as they have recently they may well find themselves dropping down the pecking order, at full form and fitness JDv2 and BOD would be my starting partnership against Aus however.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Yes don't think this clown watched the Wales Ireland test

[center]

I don't agree with some of his comments either but the team is a fair shout on recent performances.

I think he's just being polite to some players who are well out of form. Nothing wrong with his actual picks, I think most would agree.

Based on this weekend's games I don't see how Hogg is not the Lions 15

Hogg played very well. Maitland looks like he will form a good back three with him and Visser.

yappysnap wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I'll have some of whatever Brendan has been puffing on. "Cuthbert continues to impress" - I thought he was caught out defensively far too often? "Jonathan Davies is hitting his straps again" - one of my fave players, but he spent more time hitting the advertising boards with loose passes than hitting straps. "Sam Warburton was more than useful" - depends on your definition of useful, but it wouldn't fit with mine I feel slightly bad picking out three glaring examples that are all Welsh, not intended to be that way, just felt they were Gallacher's most wide of the mark comments

Read my mind there, he must have watched last years game on ESPN classics!

I completely agree - nonsense from Gallacher. It is so important that we at least try and be objective when considering form. It helps if you actually watch all the games too.

Something else that has been bugging me - Tom Wood is an excellent young prospect but to suggest he is now first choice at blind in a test team when he was England's weakest forward (relatively, of course) at the weekend and in direct competition with Lydiate, Ferris, Brown, et al is nothing short of frothingly mental.

George Carlin wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I'll have some of whatever Brendan has been puffing on. "Cuthbert continues to impress" - I thought he was caught out defensively far too often? "Jonathan Davies is hitting his straps again" - one of my fave players, but he spent more time hitting the advertising boards with loose passes than hitting straps. "Sam Warburton was more than useful" - depends on your definition of useful, but it wouldn't fit with mine I feel slightly bad picking out three glaring examples that are all Welsh, not intended to be that way, just felt they were Gallacher's most wide of the mark comments

Read my mind there, he must have watched last years game on ESPN classics!

I completely agree - nonsense from Gallacher. It is so important that we at least try and be objective when considering form. It helps if you actually watch all the games too.

Something else that has been bugging me - Tom Wood is an excellent young prospect but to suggest he is now first choice at blind in a test team when he was England's weakest forward (relatively, of course) at the weekend and in direct competition with Lydiate, Ferris, Brown, et al is nothing short of frothingly mental.

With Lydiate and Ferris out injured Wood's Lions stock rises massively.

Had Tuilagi been fit we might have had someone to compare BOD to. JD2 threw two silly passes and didn't creat as much as normal, Barritt was Barritt the unspectacular good all rounder, Lamont isn't worthy of comment.

Blindside should be the toughest call for the Lions with all good men fit and on form. But Ferris, Jones, Croft and Lydiate out last week, Shingler and Brown not having their best games and Sean O'Brien being subdued if not ineffective, Wood looks the man.


Lets see what happens over the next two months. Form and media accolades are as short lived as they are quickly gained. Robshaw was having his captaincy and his head called for poor decision making and poor form before December. Now he's leading the touring party in most people's books

Robshaw wasn't being attacked for poor form. Decision making, yes but he was excellent as a player against SA at least. He was massacred at the breakdown against Hooper but we all live and learn and seeing as he generally isn't the sole breakdown man for England isn't played as such either, that still doesn't equate to poor form as of itself!

Brendan Gallagher wrote:My wings are the hungry-again Chris Ashton and Ireland's new boy wonder Simon Zebo. The former is really beginning to motor again and the latter is a breath of fresh air on and off the pitch.

I want to see a bit more of Billy Twelvetrees at this level before any rash predictions but he has made a very decent start to his international career.

Come on, Brendan, make up your mind!

To be fair, at least Zebo has more than 1 cap!

It's a joke. One try and a back-heel in his first Six Nations match and this hack has him starting in the Lions Test XV. Zebo's a real talent, but come on!

GunsGerms wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:I cannot see how BOD can be captain as is is not a certain starter.

BOD can play 12 or 13. If the best centres at the moment are BOD and Tuilagi then why not pick them both?

And as much as anyone is a certain starter he is. Theres only one player that was ahead, and hes not certain to even start for his own country now whilst BOD appears to have answered questions over his fitness. For now anyway. But if things continue as they did last weekend hes an easy pick.

Bod is looking good but that form has to survive the season.

Interesting how reputations ebb and flow.

Particularly with Welsh players. Warburton only a year ago was virtually a shoo in for Lion's captain. Now look at him. Compare him to his understudy who in some quarters is worshipped as a deity.

David Denton and Richie Gray too. From Scottish darlings to overrated show ponies in some people's eyes.

Even in the battle for 10. It has gone from Sexton to being an absolute dead certainty (he probably still is to be fair) but now he's got Farrell Jr as potential competition. Then again after this week that could change again.

For England you have the likes of Twelvetrees and to a lesser extent Parling and Launchbury as bolters.

Ireland's players have been pretty steady but as already mentioned BOD has shown the old boy has still got what it takes.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:I cannot see how BOD can be captain as is is not a certain starter.

BOD can play 12 or 13. If the best centres at the moment are BOD and Tuilagi then why not pick them both?

And as much as anyone is a certain starter he is. Theres only one player that was ahead, and hes not certain to even start for his own country now whilst BOD appears to have answered questions over his fitness. For now anyway. But if things continue as they did last weekend hes an easy pick.

Who was the other certain starter?

I reckon Johnnie Beattie, Ryan Grant and Stu Hogg are a couple of Scottish bolters.

Gray I feel did well against England, he tackled well and looked to be one of the few Scottish players trying to attack the Breakdown.

Denton did himself no favours. Prancing about in the backline swishing his hair out of his face while his Backrow counterparts took part in a futile battle against the Rampaging English pack.

Had Denton lended his help in some of these contact areas instead of waiting to make a headline grabbing carry, we might not have been completely dicked at the breakdown.

Kelly Brown is who I feel sorry for the most, he was one man fighting against hopeless odds at Twickenham and did not embarrass himself one bit.

After the England game my hopeful Scottish Lions candidates are :

Beattie, Brown, Grant, Gray, Hogg. Although he didn't play I reckon Hines will tour too if Clermont let him.