Bryce Lawrence retiring

I listened to an interview with Bryce Lawrence this morning on radio NZ sport. Essentially he accepts he has no future as an international ref and has managed to permanently offend SARU. He feels the message is pretty clear from both IRB and SANZAR. Unusually for a referee he freely admits he made mistakes in big games towards the end of his career. His advice to up and coming referees relates to mental training. I.e. condition yourself mentally so you referee the way you always do when it comes to the big games that are important to you. I found it interesting.

Biltong?

a YEAR TOO LATE.

Can he have a word with Rollain and tell him how great it feels

Biltong wrote:a YEAR TOO LATE.

I take it you are a happy man.

It's a shame when a referee feels he has to back down to pressure from coaches, players and fans who feel aggrieved about decisions. Careers shouldn't be damaged or ended just because a side doesn't like losing.

We wouldn't have a game without referees and some of the treatment of them is pretty low. Death threats and personal abuse etc have no place in sport.

blackcanelion wrote:

Biltong wrote:a YEAR TOO LATE.

I take it you are a happy man.

Doesn't change anything that happened last year mate. But alas, his time has come and gone, let's look to the future, maybe one day he will come to SA for a holiday.

Avalon wrote:It's a shame when a referee feels he has to back down to pressure from coaches, players and fans who feel aggrieved about decisions. Careers shouldn't be damaged or ended just because a side doesn't like losing.

We wouldn't have a game without referees and some of the treatment of them is pretty low. Death threats and personal abuse etc have no place in sport.

I very much doubt he is retiring because of that.

Avalon wrote:It's a shame when a referee feels he has to back down to pressure from coaches, players and fans who feel aggrieved about decisions. Careers shouldn't be damaged or ended just because a side doesn't like losing.

We wouldn't have a game without referees and some of the treatment of them is pretty low. Death threats and personal abuse etc have no place in sport.

I agree with Biltong, re: the death threats and personal abuse (which I don't condone). The political reality is his time at the top table was finished. I think he had only intended to stay on for another year anyway (Lions tour). It might have been different if he had longer (a la Wayne Barnes). It's an insight into the workings of the IRB. The reality is the big games mean a lot to the supporters of teams involved. For all his faults, what I like about Bryce is his honesty. He's acknowledged his mistakes. Not many others do this.

Biltong wrote:

Avalon wrote:It's a shame when a referee feels he has to back down to pressure from coaches, players and fans who feel aggrieved about decisions. Careers shouldn't be damaged or ended just because a side doesn't like losing.

We wouldn't have a game without referees and some of the treatment of them is pretty low. Death threats and personal abuse etc have no place in sport.

I very much doubt he is retiring because of that.

Perhaps not, but I imagine it was a factor. Who wants to face that level of abuse when you're just doing your job?

I realise the days of respect for officials may be behind us but some things are taken too far.

I dunno, you can respect the official without respecting the decisions he's made. I hated how personal things got with Barnes Lawrence and Joubert. My team among others suffered greatly at extremely important games that were nightmares ref wise but you gotta suck it up, hope that the refs improve and that you get some sort of karma out of things. Im some way NZ and SA had karma that was reversed from the previous WC, which prevented ding dong clashes between the two in both tournaments. Sadly some refs haven't seemed to improve from some disaster games.

I know what you're saying guys. It can be immensely frustrating and we do tend to remember refs from games where our side has done badly.

Having said that, as an English fan, I actually think Steve Walsh isn't a bad ref now. Seems strange to say that!

Avalon wrote:I know what you're saying guys. It can be immensely frustrating and we do tend to remember refs from games where our side has done badly.

Having said that, as an English fan, I actually think Steve Walsh isn't a bad ref now. Seems strange to say that!

Well you see, Walsh used to have a chip on his shoulder and it showed when he reffed. Now he has a chip on the other shoulder as well so is perfectly balanced

blackcanelion wrote:I listened to an interview with Bryce Lawrence this morning on radio NZ sport. Essentially he accepts he has no future as an international ref and has managed to permanently offend SARU. He feels the message is pretty clear from both IRB and SANZAR. Unusually for a referee he freely admits he made mistakes in big games towards the end of his career. His advice to up and coming referees relates to mental training. I.e. condition yourself mentally so you referee the way you always do when it comes to the big games that are important to you. I found it interesting.

Top class from the man. If a few more refrees who had shockers in a Rugby World Cup could be honest instead of arrogantly insisting they did a good job, like Wayne Barnes, for instance, then we'd have a much better game because of it.

It's a shame that when a guy comes out and admits to a poor approach then he is lynched and words are put into his mouth about "costing a team a game". I think the IRB showed poor leadership in pulling him from SA tests when he is a better referee than most. I also think a few SA fans, players, coaches and administrators show grow up and realise their team lost because they weren't, and still aren't good enough. Otherwise they will get lost in the dark ages permanently.

I respect Lawrence. Class. Integrity. Honesty. I wonder, if like Paddy O'Brien - who also had a world cup shocker, he might one day make IRB referee chief with these qualities?

anotherworldofpain wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:I listened to an interview with Bryce Lawrence this morning on radio NZ sport. Essentially he accepts he has no future as an international ref and has managed to permanently offend SARU. He feels the message is pretty clear from both IRB and SANZAR. Unusually for a referee he freely admits he made mistakes in big games towards the end of his career. His advice to up and coming referees relates to mental training. I.e. condition yourself mentally so you referee the way you always do when it comes to the big games that are important to you. I found it interesting.

Top class from the man. If a few more refrees who had shockers in a Rugby World Cup could be honest instead of arrogantly insisting they did a good job, like Wayne Barnes, for instance, then we'd have a much better game because of it.

It's a shame that when a guy comes out and admits to a poor approach then he is lynched and words are put into his mouth about "costing a team a game". I think the IRB showed poor leadership in pulling him from SA tests when he is a better referee than most. I also think a few SA fans, players, coaches and administrators show grow up and realise their team lost because they weren't, and still aren't good enough. Otherwise they will get lost in the dark ages permanently.

I respect Lawrence. Class. Integrity. Honesty. I wonder, if like Paddy O'Brien - who also had a world cup shocker, he might one day make IRB referee chief with these qualities?

For the sake of the argument I will entertain some of your thoughts.

Bold statement saying SA aren't good enough. Good enough for what?
New team, new coach and an attempt to change the way we play.

Nobody forced him to say anything.

Better referee than most?
Grasping at straws there mate.

We should grow up?
I am pretty sure you must have read many a south african saying our game plan and players weren't good enough, it still doesn't take away from the fact that Pocock had carte blanche in the rucks. We gave away more penalties in the aussie 22 than they did. where is the benefit to the attacking team. I suggest if you want to make SA look bad in all this, you go watch the game again.

Bryce Lawrence were poor, he didn't want to make any decisions and Australia took advantage of that (fair enough on them), however when the captain and vice captain of the Boks are given the cold shoulder by a referee in a QF it is disgraceful.

Biltong wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:I listened to an interview with Bryce Lawrence this morning on radio NZ sport. Essentially he accepts he has no future as an international ref and has managed to permanently offend SARU. He feels the message is pretty clear from both IRB and SANZAR. Unusually for a referee he freely admits he made mistakes in big games towards the end of his career. His advice to up and coming referees relates to mental training. I.e. condition yourself mentally so you referee the way you always do when it comes to the big games that are important to you. I found it interesting.

Top class from the man. If a few more refrees who had shockers in a Rugby World Cup could be honest instead of arrogantly insisting they did a good job, like Wayne Barnes, for instance, then we'd have a much better game because of it.

It's a shame that when a guy comes out and admits to a poor approach then he is lynched and words are put into his mouth about "costing a team a game". I think the IRB showed poor leadership in pulling him from SA tests when he is a better referee than most. I also think a few SA fans, players, coaches and administrators show grow up and realise their team lost because they weren't, and still aren't good enough. Otherwise they will get lost in the dark ages permanently.

I respect Lawrence. Class. Integrity. Honesty. I wonder, if like Paddy O'Brien - who also had a world cup shocker, he might one day make IRB referee chief with these qualities?

For the sake of the argument I will entertain some of your thoughts.

Bold statement saying SA aren't good enough. Good enough for what?
New team, new coach and an attempt to change the way we play.

Nobody forced him to say anything.

Better referee than most?
Grasping at straws there mate.

We should grow up?
I am pretty sure you must have read many a south african saying our game plan and players weren't good enough, it still doesn't take away from the fact that Pocock had carte blanche in the rucks. We gave away more penalties in the aussie 22 than they did. where is the benefit to the attacking team. I suggest if you want to make SA look bad in all this, you go watch the game again.

Bryce Lawrence were poor, he didn't want to make any decisions and Australia took advantage of that (fair enough on them), however when the captain and vice captain of the Boks are given the cold shoulder by a referee in a QF it is disgraceful.

SA had something like 80% of possession and territory in the game. If Pocock had Carte Blance, he didn't do much with it. Analogously to SA with the ball - they had plenty of quick recycled ball and were merely clueless on what to do with it and couldn't manufacture a try.

This is, as you say hence answering your own question how SA weren't good enough. They weren't good enough to score, even with all that territory and possession, and this is why they didn't win the world cup, or beat Australia that day.

Nothing to do with Bryce, who merely applied a more liberal (but yet consistent) interpretation at the breakdown.

End of story. End of tournament. Apparently SA interpreted it well enough to win all that ball...

It's very unfortunate that it's also the end of his career.

Well, you keep sitting on your side of that "holier than though fence"

Nothing holier about it. it's not based on religious beliefs, it's just logic and reasoning. More science in fact.

Morne Steyn, John Smit, jdv between them churned out many, consistent sub par performances and did more damage to SA rugby between them than BL could ever have done. Yet not one death threat amongst them? Funny how players are not madeas accountable. For those three it was at least a year too late, more for steyn.

well done SA, you must be very proud.

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Bryce-Lawrence-retires-20121016

"It got pretty bad," Lawrence said. "Not really threats on my family as such, there was a concern, but it was mainly aimed at me through social media. On Facebook they launched a 'get rid of Bryce Lawrence' site and it was pretty nasty.

Think this got way out of hand. Even if we had won the game against Aus, we would have lost against NZ.

Yeah thats why I like to put these into context whenever I see them. We saw it with Barnes and here with John Hart in 99.

Funny thing is at least Lawrence admitted his poor performance from the start and has been upfront about it ever since.

And SA's downfall, as we've seen since 2009, has primarily been due to poor administration, selection and coaching of its main side. For BL to bear the weight of all that as well just to save people from looking at their own back yards- even temporarily- was asking a bit too much.

And the one match has ended his career prematurely. Those I mentioned above- despite being consistently worse- got to overstay theirs by a long way- all care of the same people responsible for BL's downfall...

FerN wrote:http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Bryce-Lawrence-retires-20121016

"It got pretty bad," Lawrence said. "Not really threats on my family as such, there was a concern, but it was mainly aimed at me through social media. On Facebook they launched a 'get rid of Bryce Lawrence' site and it was pretty nasty.

Think this got way out of hand. Even if we had won the game against Aus, we would have lost against NZ.

Fern, there are near 50 million people in SA, 80 000 or somwent on to facebook and said whatever they had to say, I never reas it so I have no clue what was said.

Yet it seems South Africa as a nation got rid of Bryce Lawrence.

Talking about looking for a dead horse to flog.

But Biltong,

It was because of us that he retired. That was one big petition there. Did I feel hard done by his performance? Yes, I did. But I really think a petition is way over board.

Just go look at the papers tomorrow, Beeld, Die Burger etc. This will be front page news. Whereas it is not even mentioned on the NZ and Australian online news papers. We hold grudges for far too long and over silly things.

Look at the comments in that article that I posted. There is still a lot of people not over it yet.

Biltong, Yes South African rugby had a lot to do with bringing Lawrence's refereeing career to an end.and true nothing further is to be gained by continually "flogging that defunct horse".

What concerns me now is an element in South African rugby supporters, adopting a continuous (flogging) bullying attitude to foreign referees, who may be seen to err in their adjudicating over games involving South Africa.

One of the freshest, competent referees coming onto the International panel is Glen Jackson, its not very hard to imagine his career being bought to an abrupt holt, and his contribution to International rugby being lost, all due to some decision that the South African public dont like not going their way.

Perhaps Jackson could be a new equine to execute by way of flogging...

Laurie, the problem here is in 234 tests since re admission the south african public made a ruckus, not 2 matches, not 3 matches or more.

One match. i don't want to go into the reasons why the match was lost and debate that to the nth degree as we have done that before.

i have read and seen as many comments from posters outside of SA as I have read comments from SA posters that Lawrence had an influence on that match.

South Africa didn't make him retire, thT is a decision he made. It is a once off event.

If the people out there want to lay this on our doorstep, then so be it, we will just add it onto the other pile of perceptions there are about South Africans.

Biltong
Yes I can easily name three incidents involving South African rugby supporters, rugby players conduct which were absolutely (to use your word) over the top. and just is not neccessary in the game of rugby.

You may belittle our (Kiwis) perceptions of your fellow countrymen, but really you dont help yourselves at times. I note you make no mention of an incident of an Auckland taxi driver who also happened to have the name Bryce Lawrence, and a number of innovative South Africans thought it might be clever to ring him at three in the morning and share their opinions on what were the required prerequsites to be an International referee, and how welcome he would be should he ever venture to visit South Africa.Telecom NZ changed his number pronto.

The point is you guys just dont get it.

You guys.

You see that is exactly why I say we'll just dump it on the other heep.

How many are there in you guys?

Let's talk about people in glass houses for a moment.

What about about the death threats Wayne Barnes recieved?

Anyway, I am done talking about this. It is what it is percieved to be.

I thought you wanted to talk about the death threats that Wayne Barnes received?

Biltong you are more than entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully ask that you dont expect everyone to agree with you." Perception isnt always that which is perceived".

Biltong, I think it is very naive to think that personal abuse and death threat played no part in his decision to retire.

He may have done very badly in that match but the South African public let themselves down badly as did the New Zealand public in 2007.

Its a sad for the game of rugby that the traditionally two biggest nations have acted this way at the last two World Cups. Probably will be England next the rate we are going.

Unfortunately I feel that respect for the referee is dying out. I see it myself at lower levels in a massive way.

Whatever his mentality you cannot surely suggest that:

A - the reaction in South Africa was acceptable
B - that the personal abuse and threats he received played no part in this

red_stag wrote:
He may have done very badly in that match but the South African public let themselves down badly as did the New Zealand public in 2007.

Although Barnes has reffed NZ, both in NZ and away, since.

He didnt get the warmest of welcomes, but it wasnt such that he was afraid.

Now its water under the bridge...but I'd say that other than the BL incident, nothing else stands out to me in SA, I just believe that SA's already unrealistic expectations on their past due side were vented excessively on BL as an outlet- suddenly there was a reason 'outside' the team to wear the blame, that BL copped it all.

Taylor, yes of course he did. He went out there and faced the NZ public.

However surely the issue should not be whether one was afraid of death threats but rather they were made?

I read about them, and even at the time thought someone was being stupid...

I think there is quite a difference between the Bryce Lawrence and the Barnes incidents.

Barnes and the touchies were inept in the QF at Cardiff - couldn't spot 25+ penalisable offences etc. against the French but could find penalties to give against the AB's.

BL on the other hand was given clear instructions by the IRB that there were too many penalties at the breakdown in all matches leading up to that game and that he needed to let things go more - he did this and the breakdown, although a mess, was an even contest for both sides.

Both sides were reffed the same by BL, which cannot be said in the case of Barnes.

The Saffa's just weren't good enough to deal with that and couldn't take all the chances given to them including kickable penalties.

Yes where our chances were restricted to drop goals from half way as we couldnt run it with half the French backs in our backline as well.

Henrys take on its incredible. Aside from the penalties France went from the heaviest penalised side in the entire world cup in 07 to the least in the one match. And...the ABs were at extremely short odds to win that match.

BL got done by O'Neill and co from the Irish loss as well so unfortunately he let himself get caught up in it as well- froze he says, bit like Barnes in that respect.

In the Nz herald Bryce Lawrence states that after Australia had lost to Ireland,there was so much .Politics involved by O`Neill behind scenes that when it came to the Boks match he may have frozen.

Yes so perhaps ONeill and the IRB are the real culprit the SA fans (and now BL himself) should be looking towards. Fancy telling a ref how to control a game at that point in the tournament.

South African critics were deafening with their silence of Lawrence's performance in the Springboks V Lions game, Durban 2009. wonder why?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10841046

There's certainly a lesson to be learned here that probably has to be learned to allow the choice of becoming a referee to remain a positive one.

If those at the top are subject to abuse by fans and are treated with disdain by their employers in influencing they way they control a game only to be sidelined and made scapegoats when they come under fire then somethings certainly wrong.

For crying out loud - why don't you all make a rehashed mountain out of a molehill?

The man is incompetent, shouldn't have been reffing at the top level in the first place & won't be reffing there anymore, simple as that.

geez I wish I could find things that simple sometimes.

Galted wrote:For crying out loud - why don't you all make a rehashed mountain out of a molehill?

The man is incompetent, shouldn't have been reffing at the top level in the first place & won't be reffing there anymore, simple as that.

It's easy to get on the band wagon isn't it? The guy had the dignity and courage to say that maybe next time he would take a more rigorous approach and turn the match into a penalty festival as some other referees do because with the spotlight on it's best to say "he called too much" rather than "he called too little".

The fact is there are many worse referees actively in duty now who do not have the dignity to admit they messed up. For example Allain Rolland is a notorious homer and apparently very inconsistent in what comprises a "tip tackle" and whether it's worthy of a red, yellow, penalty or nothing at all. Barnes has made so many balls ups that it's no longer possible to keep track of them all. Dave Pearson apparently is both near and far sighted and can't spot something unless it's exactly at a focal distance of 15.3 meters. Don't get me started on Nigel "teletubby" Owens and his refusal to implement the IRB recommendations on ruck interpretations. Roman Poite already decides which scrum is going to be penalised before he steps out on the pitch and frankly just about the only refs who don't go a long way to predetermining the outcome of a match are Steve Walsh and Craig Joubert. It's a tough job. Yes. And thankless too. But the honest truth is the vast majority of our refs aren't up to it. Don't tar and feather a guy for actually being refreshingly honest.

Don't want to upset you AWOP but your opinions aren't actually facts.

Ah, but they are not opinions. They are merely commentary facts.

Galted wrote:For crying out loud - why don't you all make a rehashed mountain out of a molehill?

The man is incompetent, shouldn't have been reffing at the top level in the first place & won't be reffing there anymore, simple as that.

Does that warrant making death threats to him.

Biggest myth in rugby is the people on the high horse who look down their nose at soccer and claim respect of the referee.

AWOP - which seems more likely - that all the referees are all rubbish. Or they are trying to referee an unrefereeable (thats right I coined the prhrase ) system which is inconsistent leads to referees right across the board doing a bad job.

I don't think it's unrefereeable. But the skill level required to do it successfully is so high that very few individuals can referee it.

red_stag wrote:

Galted wrote:For crying out loud - why don't you all make a rehashed mountain out of a molehill?

The man is incompetent, shouldn't have been reffing at the top level in the first place & won't be reffing there anymore, simple as that.

Does that warrant making death threats to him.

Biggest myth in rugby is the people on the high horse who look down their nose at soccer and claim respect of the referee.

AWOP - which seems more likely - that all the referees are all rubbish. Or they are trying to referee an unrefereeable (thats right I coined the prhrase ) system which is inconsistent leads to referees right across the board doing a bad job.

Of course it doesn't warrant making death threats to him, as far as I can recall I didn't make any.

No but you said it was a mountain out of a molehill.

You will not find any rugby fan who'll disagree that he should not have been top level but I think that it is far from a molehill.

Such reactions as we saw from SA and NZ (dare I say Wales with Rolland as well) public are unacceptable and ill suited to rugby fans. The point is that referees word is no longer law.