Welsh Rugby Union say Wales's regions 'reject' central contracts

Roger Lewis has revealed Wales's four rugby regions have rejected a Welsh Rugby Union offer to centrally contract their Welsh international players

The WRU planned to use the £6.2million they give to the regions for releasing their Welsh stars for international duty to fund the new central contracts.

The proposal hopes to keep Wales's top players playing club rugby in Wales.

"That offer was not accepted by the regions." WRU Group Chief Executive Roger Lewis writes in an open letter.

"That is their contractual right and I respect it.

"The recent debate, if you can call it that, about player salaries and sound bite solutions has been untimely, misinformed and damaging.

"An important fact to the salary issue is that the WRU, on August 14 this year, formally offered to the four regions to centrally contract the entire international squad of players within Wales.

"It would have meant that the WRU would have managed players' salaries and careers, and directly we would negotiate with any player seeking to leave Wales.

"The £6.2m player release money would be retained by the WRU to fund this and the surplus, and yes there is a surplus, would be spent on nurturing new talent."



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20001262



The bit in bold is the likely reason that the WRU's offer was rejected. That's my view, anyway. What do you think?

I think it is because the regions want their shared £6.2m plus central contracts.

Interesting to read that "the surplus, and yes there is a surplus, would be spent on nurturing new talent."

maestegmafia wrote:I think it is because the regions want their shared £6.2m plus central contracts.

But on a positive, the debate has started and so has the contract wrangling. It’s only a matter of time now isn’t it? The regions will want more favourable terms, but the WRU want to be able to control the national players in a way that they see fit to fully realise the potential of the Welsh national team. It’s just about who gets what now.

It's the WRU who are going to have to make concessions on this.

If this was to happen, and on WRU terms (i.e. the £6.2m goes on central contracts, not to the regions), do you think that the rest of the regions' squads would be made up of mainly academy players? Just thinking about my region, the Dragons, whose wage bill is reportedly something like £2m. If we didn't get the WRU funding I can't see how we would be able to pay for any other players. I'm not whining as I think it's up to the regions to up their game and generate their own income, but in reality if this happened tomorrow then I can only see some regions being able to afford academy wages to fill out their squads to the required size.

If this is to be the case, then do you think the WRU would go for an even-ish split of players aorund the regions, or would they officially turn the Dragons into a development region where they give younsgters league and lower level european experience, and the other 3 regions get more stars so they have the HC experience? Could work. Would be an even bigger death knell for the Dragons as I can't see many people paying for season tickets to watch academy matches, but in the interest of Welsh rugby development on a whole it might be a good step.

Good old WRU lets spin it to make the regions look bad. Basically, the way I read it, the WRU have offered to pay the 'stars' wages, but leave the regions all in a position where they would go belly up, and as such whent eh regions say no it is them that are standing in the way of progress.

maestegmafia wrote:I think it is because the regions want their shared £6.2m plus central contracts.

Interesting to read that "the surplus, and yes there is a surplus, would be spent on nurturing new talent."

Sounds like it,

But the SRU has started funding the pro teams to a level equal to the english salary cap, the IRFU are invoved in the Provinces,

In comparison to these the WRU puts a lot smaller % of profit into the top level rugby.

If the SRU (and they have less money than WRU) can fund the 2 pro teams to a level equal to the english salary cap, the WRU should be able to fund the 4 to half the salary cap each.

The regions just want their cake and eat it again.

The £6.2m they get from the WRU already goes on wages anyway. If the players have central contracts we will see it spent on Welsh squad players who you will be able to see week in week out playing in Wales for your region.

The regions want the money plus dual contracts so that they can spend the cash on cheap rubbish imports rather than Welsh talent.

If the WRU contracted say the top 32 players and places 8 in each region than that has to be a good thing as it makes each squad have a good core of Welsh internationals. The regions still get £2m+ from tournament fees plus gate receipts and merchandise to spend on the rest of the squad.

If you want to see Campese Maafu at the Blues rather than Gethin then fine but I know I would rather have Geth, Paul James, Mikey, Hook, Brew, etc etc at the regions to draw in the fans.

The WRU already pay as well for all the academies in addition to the £6.2m.

The Welsh team is the driving force here. The regions can't fill their small stadiums.

This is our chance to get the structure right but once again the regions will blow it and come up with another half arsed compromise which will not achieve one thing or another.

Shame.

Kingshu wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I think it is because the regions want their shared £6.2m plus central contracts.

Interesting to read that "the surplus, and yes there is a surplus, would be spent on nurturing new talent."

Sounds like it,

But the SRU has started funding the pro teams to a level equal to the english salary cap, the IRFU are invoved in the Provinces,

In comparison to these the WRU puts a lot smaller % of profit into the top level rugby.

If the SRU (and they have less money than WRU) can fund the 2 pro teams to a level equal to the english salary cap, the WRU should be able to fund the 4 to half the salary cap each.

Yeah the should and probably could, be able to. However then they would not be in possition to bang on about how well tehy are doing clearing their debt or how much profit they are making, and how clever business men they they are. Lets be honest they are a load of chuck-ers

Only 6 months ago, Dai Pickering, WRU 'Chairman' was announcing that Wales would not have central contracts.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/04/06/david-pickering-three-grand-slams-don-t-hide-major-problems-in-welsh-rugby-91466-30708644/3/

I know they're good at the admin and paying off the overdraft, but when it comes to the actual rugby the WRU just seem to make it up as they go along.

Shambles.

If there's anyone in Welsh rugby more self-satisfied than Roger Lewis, it's David Pickering.

Imagine the pair of them in conversation. The business-speak would make your head explode.

Griff wrote:
If this is to be the case, then do you think the WRU would go for an even-ish split of players aorund the regions, or would they officially turn the Dragons into a development region where they give younsgters league and lower level european experience, and the other 3 regions get more stars so they have the HC experience? Could work. Would be an even bigger death knell for the Dragons as I can't see many people paying for season tickets to watch academy matches, but in the interest of Welsh rugby development on a whole it might be a good step.

Griff I think as we are seeing in Ireland that you are better to have four teams then 3 and a development team. Also Ireland will be stronger when all four have some internationals on their books. We are starting to see some very promising backs coming through in connacht so the future looks bright.

I think that the dragons should accept the Central contracts and see if they can get better terms then the other regions or get in place things like equally share out players

The problem with all this speak is the terms of the contracts.

1. Is there going to be a four way split of players? 7/8 players per region? and if so how will it work, will a few Osprey boys have to head east to the Dragons???

If this is the case I can't see the Blues O's and Scarlets wanting this as it means Dragons becoming more competitive and the risk of being dumped into the Amlin greater = losing the HC money.

If this is not the case then why would the Dragons want to have but 2 of their players centrally contracted when the O's might have 7/8 Blues 6/7 and Scarlets 8/9 freeing those regions up with 1 - 2 million to spend elsewhere, making the Dragons even less competitive.

2. The desired effect the contracts would have. What restrictions would the WRU put on centrally contracted players? would the regions get use of them even less than they do now? If so then surely it would be in the regions advantage to centrally contract players to basically teach the younger players coming through. The wage element of each player is only part of the investment the regions put into each player (allbeit a large chunk)

3. This 6.2mill, is to be funding Wales national team players based in wales, so would not include the likes of Jenkins, James, Delve, Powell, Hook, Brew, Roberts, and Gill all of which have played int rugby recently, what if some of these players move back to wales, would they be allowed to sign for whoever they want or would the WRU want a say in where they go?

Also Jenkins, James, Hook and Powell are all current international players, would 4 more welsh based players get central contracts in their place or would that add to the surplus?

The only positive I see so far for the regions is that the central contracts would be run by dinosaurs within the WRU and maybe the idea of a large guarentee would lure some welsh players back, especially the fringe players such as Gill, Roberts etc, the type of players available year round and of real quality. That would truly bulster the club game.


PS Is it true the SRU are funding the Scot teams to a tune of 4.5 mill as the Aviva clubs???!

thebluesmancometh wrote:What restrictions would the WRU put on centrally contracted players? would the regions get use of them even less than they do now?

Well precisely. Why would any of the regions want to agree to that?

I really don't know what Roger Lewis was hoping to achieve with this 'open letter'. How does this help anyone? All it does it create more ill-feeling ahead of any future negotiations.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Good old WRU lets spin it to make the regions look bad. Basically, the way I read it, the WRU have offered to pay the 'stars' wages, but leave the regions all in a position where they would go belly up, and as such whent eh regions say no it is them that are standing in the way of progress.

Thats how I read it too. They're saying they want to use the regions' funding to pay for the internationals. That means the regions would have to find more money to pay for the non internationals.

Theres also a big downside to central contracts. National coaches are forced to pick the players on central contracts instead of picking the best player. That weakens the national side.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:What restrictions would the WRU put on centrally contracted players? would the regions get use of them even less than they do now?

Well precisely. Why would any of the regions want to agree to that?

I really don't know what Roger Lewis was hoping to achieve with this 'open letter'. How does this help anyone? All it does it create more ill-feeling ahead of any future negotiations.

Yep - it's a strange tactic. He's a lot less forthcoming with other information (PWC report, for example). Fancies himself as a bit of an Alastair Campbell, I reckon.

thebluesmancometh wrote:1. Is there going to be a four way split of players? 7/8 players per region? and if so how will it work, will a few Osprey boys have to head east to the Dragons?

Personally I don't think so. Realistically we have enough Welsh talent (which is all we will be able to afford) to put together two competitive sides, one reasonable and one developing. I think it would end up with the first teams looking something like

Blues - Halfpenny, North, Roberts, J Davies, Cuthbert, Priestland, Ll Williams; D Jones, Rees, Andrews, B Davies, Reed, Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau

Dragons - D Evans, Prydie, Hughes, Bishop, Fussel, Tovey, G Davies; R Evans, Myhill, Jarvis, A Jones, Sidoli, L Evans, Groves, McCusker

Ospreys - Li Williams, Dirkson, Beck, Sc Williams, Stoddart, Biggar, Webb; Bevington, Hibbard, A Jones, I Evans, AW Jones, Shingler, Tipuric, Ry Jones

Scarlets -: J Williams, Phillips, Maule, Warren, Fenby, G Owen, Knoyle; Rh Jones, Owens, Lee, Gough, Kelly, Turnbull, Navidi, Murphy

thebluesmancometh wrote:2. The desired effect the contracts would have. What restrictions would the WRU put on centrally contracted players? would the regions get use of them even less than they do now? If so then surely it would be in the regions advantage to centrally contract players to basically teach the younger players coming through. The wage element of each player is only part of the investment the regions put into each player (allbeit a large chunk)

I assume that the regions will be more or less restricted the same as the Irish, they can come in a few weeks before the HEC, and then can basically play in the HEC, until you are out and then the back end of the Rabo season, when things get competitive.

thebluesmancometh wrote:3. This 6.2mill, is to be funding Wales national team players based in wales, so would not include the likes of Jenkins, James, Delve, Powell, Hook, Brew, Roberts, and Gill all of which have played int rugby recently, what if some of these players move back to wales, would they be allowed to sign for whoever they want or would the WRU want a say in where they go?

Pretty much see the answer to point one, and then fit them in where they are better than the current option, and shuffle the others down to the lesser and developement region as required.

It's all a case of 'I'm Lord Lewis look what I've tried to do for you'. Central contracts are thought of fondly I think in Wales but the offer was never going to considered by the regions and he's getting in first to tell everyone it's their fault.

Casartelli wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:What restrictions would the WRU put on centrally contracted players? would the regions get use of them even less than they do now?

Well precisely. Why would any of the regions want to agree to that?

I really don't know what Roger Lewis was hoping to achieve with this 'open letter'. How does this help anyone? All it does it create more ill-feeling ahead of any future negotiations.

Yep - it's a strange tactic. He's a lot less forthcoming with other information (PWC report, for example). Fancies himself as a bit of an Alastair Campbell, I reckon.

The PWC report probably said that central contract should be done, and this was a way of saying 'we tried but others wouldn't let us'. I also believe the bulk of the new WRU ideas have come from the report, like the targeting of key youth players for specialised training etc.

thebluesmancometh wrote:It's all a case of 'I'm Lord Lewis look what I've tried to do for you'. Central contracts are thought of fondly I think in Wales but the offer was never going to considered by the regions and he's getting in first to tell everyone it's their fault.

Which is a really childish and unprofessional way of going about things.

SS

Are you really claiming that the Dragons and Scarlets become development sides to the other 2???

I see that as only detrimental to Welsh rugby, especially as at present the Scarlets are the strongest of the four (arguably).

Although the 2 big sides wouldn''t be competitive in the Rabo as their first teams would be unavailable for most of the season, I'd bet on the Scarlets or Dragons over the other 2 week in week out, and therefore one of the big 2 would miss out on HC rugby!!!

If central contracts should enter I would want to see each region receive 8 central contracts each.

So Dragons would have 8 slots available (obviously upper limit and player list set by the WRU)
They'd obviously give 2 to Fal and Lyds and would therefore have 6 available...
The WRU could provide a list of players within Wales eligible for central contracting, from the top end ints to fringe players.
Dragons could then look through this list and approach 6 players they feel could help the region, these might be players outside of Wales, or players who havn't been given central contracts at their regions, players who are young and promising like Navidi, Andrews, Fish, Jarvis, Morgan, Walker, Lee, Rod Williams, etc...

So...

Blues - Davies, Warburton, Roberts, Cuthbert, 1/2p (Andrews, Navidi, Patchell)

Ospreys - Jones, Hibbard, AWJ, Evans, Tipuric, Webb, Biggar (Bevington)

Scarlets - Rees/Owens, Mccusker, Shinglar, Knoyle, RP, North, Davies, Williams

Dragons - Falatau, Lydiate, Evans, Evans, Prydie (Stoddart, Liam WIlliams, Samson Lee)

Just examples but you know what I mean, make all four regions competitive whilst releasing some of their salary for extran (WQ) talent!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:What restrictions would the WRU put on centrally contracted players? would the regions get use of them even less than they do now?

Well precisely. Why would any of the regions want to agree to that?

I really don't know what Roger Lewis was hoping to achieve with this 'open letter'. How does this help anyone? All it does it create more ill-feeling ahead of any future negotiations.

Yep - it's a strange tactic. He's a lot less forthcoming with other information (PWC report, for example). Fancies himself as a bit of an Alastair Campbell, I reckon.

The PWC report probably said that central contract should be done, and this was a way of saying 'we tried but others wouldn't let us'. I also believe the bulk of the new WRU ideas have come from the report, like the targeting of key youth players for specialised training etc.

The rugby men had to be told by accountants that talented youngsters may benefit from specialist training?!

Actually, not that surprising. Rodge is a lot more familiar with pen-pushing than pushover tries.

From the H-cuplast year the WRU recieved approximately €5.2 million, Plus €450,000 for Blues making the the Knockouts

I don't know how much the TV for Pro 12 brings the WRU.

But if the WRU are only give back £6.2 million, it means the WRu hardly even contribute to the regions.

If they give this back, plus £6.2 million how come the regions are crying out for more funding.

If WRU pay for the acadamies, each region then has £1.55 additional from WRU about same from H-cup, and as Doc Nic says £2m+ from tournament fees plus gate receipts and merchandise

That brings it up to around £5 million per region and they don't have to pay for an acamady?

Where does 'choice' come into central contracts? Is it at the point of signing? What I mean is that players leave the dragons or turn us down beacuse of the poor facilities, ancient stadium (good atmos though!), lack of opportuniyy to win silverware (subjective), and also the negative stigma associated with playing for the Dragons.

So at what point in central contracts do players get a choice? I can imagine all hell breaking loose if some players are 'told' to play for the Dragons. Or is this a proviso of the contract? Sign up to the possbility of being posted to Gwent or there's no contract on the table?

Bluesman - I honestly think the Ospreys and Blues are more marketable, due to their location, and their location. Also they are not too far from the Dragons (blues) or the Scarlets (Ospreys) so they should be easy enough for the glory support style fans to attend etc.

I would love to see the WRU say that they will do centralised contracts, and they would not interfere with where the players are based, and also to see them give the contracts to the 15-30 men that they believe would be part of the international setup. However ralistically they would want to see every one of their 'investments' being given HEC quality rugby, and ideally they would want them to be playing in the knockout stages of the HEC and Rabo, and training and playing together week in week out. That is why I honestly believe they would want to shift the players to two main regions (Munster and Leinster) and one that is average but could get to the top level (Ulster over the last few years) and one that is just here for the youngsters to train and play at (Connacht).

I really doubt they would pick the best 8 layers from each region to give contracts to because they would end up giving contract to some people (Dan Evans for example) that are unlikely to ever be test starters for the national side, and that would just eb a waste of cash.

Griff wrote:Where does 'choice' come into central contracts? Is it at the point of signing? What I mean is that players leave the dragons or turn us down beacuse of the poor facilities, ancient stadium (good atmos though!), lack of opportuniyy to win silverware (subjective), and also the negative stigma associated with playing for the Dragons.

So at what point in central contracts do players get a choice? I can imagine all hell breaking loose if some players are 'told' to play for the Dragons. Or is this a proviso of the contract? Sign up to the possbility of being posted to Gwent or there's no contract on the table?

To be honest I don't think that is a problem , if you look at what Roge said it says 'managing the careers' (or something to that effect), so I think this would be the WRUs way of turning the Dragons into the developement regions that they seem to want (and cutting costs). So the quetion of freedom come down to what happens if a player says they are not willing to leave the regions they are playing for to go else where?

Think thats a bit unfair, SS, maybe correct a few years ago, but now the 3 Provinces are all treated the same by the IRFU and Connacht has be raised from a development team, to the IRFU developing Rugby in Connacht, with increased funding, and plans to bring the acamady and level up in Connacht.

For your fears about WRU directing players where to Play, take Bowe this summer as an example, IRFU were giving him a central contract, Munster and Ulster both wished him, and the player choose Ulster. IRFU were only really intrested that he played in Ireland.

However our Central Contracts are different the IRFU pay X (most of it) but the Province still has to pay Y (a smaller portion of it).

If this happened in Wales you could see Ospreys being able to offer bigger Y portions than say Dragons, when a player in returning.

The £6.2M is the EXTRA funding the regions get for the WRU accessing their players outside the international window (as I understand it). The WRU give around £9M from competition the regions play in. So there would be around £2.25M to each region if the £6.M was cut. This £2.25M would be used to fund the non-international players.

The WRU aren't talking about cutting all funding.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19866970

KIngshu - I appreciate Connacht are not a developement side as such, and they are definately far better than most Jeff supporters thing. However from the view point of those outside of Ireland, there area (well were till last season) two provinces that are very capable of winning the HEC (Munster & Leinster), one that is capable of winning the HEC if they can get the momentum needed (Ulster, and one that is nowhere near the standards of the others, and won't be likely to be there for a fair old time (Connacht).

Also whilst the IRFU may be willing to give a bit of freedom to players when contracts are offered, I have reservations about hte WRU. They paid to get Iestyn Harris brough into the Cardiff RFC side, and other players have been told that their international aspirations would be more likely to be achieved playing elsewhere. So I would not be suprised if they did relocate players as they saw fit, or maybe say you can play for Team A (the WRU prefered choice, equivalent of MUnster/Ulster/Leinster) or Team D (the team that are in the Amin, equivalant of Connacht).

If WRU pay for the acadamies, each region then has £1.55 additional from WRU for Internationals, plus £2.55 competition the regions play in (going by hammerofthunor), and as Doc Nic says £2m+ gate receipts and merchandise

That brings it up to around £6 million per region and they don't have to pay for an acamady, surly that makes them pretty well financed.

Kingshu and Hammer, as I've said previously the Dragons wage bill is around £2m according to their coach, because that's all they can afford. If there's another £4m coming in, where is it going?

As I understand it the total is £6.2m from the WRU. This was only increased because of the recent participation aggrement (from something like £4.8 between them), so the WRU said that they would give extra t have more access to the players. That extra was the increase from 4.8 (or similar) to 6.2m. That's my understanding anyway.

Think I counted some twice, but it is £1.55 million from WRU plus about £2 million for competations (h cup and Pro 12 TV money)

Meaning each region gets £3.5 million and acamady paid for. and then they get the gate receipts, sponsorship and merchandise, so they aren't as badly funded as made out.

doctornickolas wrote:The regions just want their cake and eat it again.

The £6.2m they get from the WRU already goes on wages anyway. If the players have central contracts we will see it spent on Welsh squad players who you will be able to see week in week out playing in Wales for your region.

The regions want the money plus dual contracts so that they can spend the cash on cheap rubbish imports rather than Welsh talent.

If the WRU contracted say the top 32 players and places 8 in each region than that has to be a good thing as it makes each squad have a good core of Welsh internationals. The regions still get £2m+ from tournament fees plus gate receipts and merchandise to spend on the rest of the squad.

If you want to see Campese Maafu at the Blues rather than Gethin then fine but I know I would rather have Geth, Paul James, Mikey, Hook, Brew, etc etc at the regions to draw in the fans.

The WRU already pay as well for all the academies in addition to the £6.2m.

The Welsh team is the driving force here. The regions can't fill their small stadiums.

This is our chance to get the structure right but once again the regions will blow it and come up with another half arsed compromise which will not achieve one thing or another.

Shame.

Does the real fault lie not in the WRFU but the regions who have for years borrowed and hitched on soccer stadia?

And ludicrous offers to hike 'attendances' by bogofs and any vagrant come along for free offers.

Fundamentally the regions are not right for Wales any more than they are so for Scotland.

Waiting for a new generation of supporters from the likes of Tonypandy who only know the regions to grow up out of their primary schools in the future.
won't pay the bills today.

Frankly almost everything (sub-National) in Wales - like in England - has been wrong.

I don't think its wrong for Scotland, just that there should be 4 of them.

Goes back to the Scottish inter-district championship, same as Ireland's Inter-Provincial championship.

Glasgow, Edinburgh, North-Midlands and South of Scotland rugby union team

which became Glasgow, Edinburgh, Caledonia Reds and Border Reivers.

The set up in Scotland was the same as in Ireland, the provinces have done ok, so I don't hold it was wrong for Scotland, just wasn't implimented well.

Kingshu - It is also easier for a player from say the Reivers to play for Sale or Newcastle and still be able to make it back for international training etc (family and other matters would be closer too), than it would be for an Irish based player to up sticks and move. So the pull of the bigger wages in the Jeff is more of an issue for the Scots.

I was just replying to

"Fundamentally the regions are not right for Wales any more than they are so for Scotland."

while there is an arguement that regions aren't right for Wales, I don't think the same applies to Scotland.

Unlike Wales they do have a history of district teams, playing each other. for Wales Clubs were the top teams,

In Ireland clubs fed Provinces, and in Scotland Clubs fed Districts, So for the SRU to use District teams does make sense. In Wales they don't have a history of this level and thats why things feel a bit wrong, when they just tried to introduce it.

However since 2 of them have been folded they have lost the District feel to them.

Kingshu wrote:I was just replying to

"Fundamentally the regions are not right for Wales any more than they are so for Scotland."

while there is an arguement that regions aren't right for Wales, I don't think the same applies to Scotland.

Unlike Wales they do have a history of district teams, playing each other. for Wales Clubs were the top teams,

In Ireland clubs fed Provinces, and in Scotland Clubs fed Districts, So for the SRU to use District teams does make sense. In Wales they don't have a history of this level and thats why things feel a bit wrong, when they just tried to introduce it.

However since 2 of them have been folded they have lost the District feel to them.

Good post Kingshu. Wales doesn't have natural 'regions' and just using the term 'regional rugby' over and over doesn't make it any more true. Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport aren't 'regions' or provinces, by any definition. The WRU could have tried North, South, East and West from the start but that ship has long sailed.

Time for everyone to embrace what we have - and for the WRU to show some strength and leadership and impose the structure that they want. Centrally contract the best players, use some of the 'record revenue' to good effect and get everyone pulling in the same direction.

We're a tiny country and the fact that the WRU still can't settle this petty region vs national team squabbling is pathetic.

We don't have historical regions but we do have historical counties, and sides called Gwent, Glamorgan and Dyfed would have covered the whole of South Wales. Add In a North Wales side and you would be done. Powys in the middle is very sparsely populated but could be part of North Wales.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdivisions_of_Wales

Intresing regions along the Police divisions could have worked,

Gogledd Cymru
Dyfed-Powys
De Cymru
Gwent

Okay, so I'm clearly an outsider and I'm not familiar with the politics of area in Wales. So forgive me my ignorance but still listen to my point Why wasn't an American straight-line-division solution used to create the new (only rugby) regions where evidently none existed before 'regionalisation?

To me a region is a region - by definition that should mean that when you add up the regions - however many - they should make a whole (territorywise). So no part of Wales should have ended up...well, outside a region???

If Wales had been divided along straight lines into four areas then if you are from the Northern region, that's where you're from. And your allegience is then natural, not enforced as the idea seems to be now when what in truth is only the south of Wales was 'regionalised'. When one region is 'regionalised' and other areas feel completely out of the regional map then, in my eyes, of course there was always going to be major friction.

Anyway, as I say, know it's a very complicated subject in Wales but that logical step of actually including all of Wales in a true 'regional' solution might have cut out the close-neighbours infighting that seems to be the recipe in south Wales regional rugby at present.

Let me help Secret flyI'm an outsider too, but find the regionalistion of Wales pretty intresting.

When regionalising the Clubs were pretty powerful, I think that Swansea and Cardiff, had prevously broken away from the WRU to play in English Prem for a year and came back.

They wanted to be at the top level of rubgy in Wales, and not feeder teams to regions.

also the split would be difficult as all the main clubs are in one area, so you had to divide these or else you would have had one super team, and 3 Connachts, or 2 super teams and 2 connachts.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_of_regional_rugby_union_teams_in_Wales

sums it up pretty well,

Basically the WRU pro wanted to do want would have be best for Wellsh rugby but the Clubs didn't want to be pushed into the background, a comprpmise was reached that wasn't really best for anyone.

If no to central contracts (in case we get the same issue that Ireland has) then why not dual contract? Kinda of different, aren't they? I would assume the Regions would get the same amount of access to players than they do now and if not maybe just 2 weeks less. Also remember the Regions choose to rotate their squad and rest some big names before the accusations of the WRU flogging the players come out. But in some cases (Roberts and Lydiate) yeah that's exactly what they do.

Kingshu wrote:

They wanted to be at the top level of rubgy in Wales, and not feeder teams to regions.

also the split would be difficult as all the main clubs are in one area, so you had to divide these or else you would have had one super team, and 3 Connachts, or 2 super teams and 2 connachts.

Yeah... that's how it reads to me and was explained to me too a few times. But in a sense, that's what happened anyway...and all crushed together in a claustrophobic (metaphorical as well as real) cauldron when maybe more real planning might have divided the new 'regions' more from each other. Some might have suffered in early years but at least it would have been a natural beginning to a new direction rather than what it turned out to be - that compromise you spoke about that wasn't the best for anybody and didn't produce the four superteams anyway.

Morgannwg wrote:If no to central contracts (in case we get the same issue that Ireland has) then why not dual contract?

What issues do Ireland have Morg? Genuine question - not a snipe

SecretFly, apart from the North (who now have the development Region) who is left out of a Region?

Kingshu the police divisions are no good. The west Wales regions are too good and too big to merge. We could have had Gwent, Glamorgan, Dyfed East, Dyfed West and North (Gwynedd?). At least that way there'd be some identity.

SecretFly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:If no to central contracts (in case we get the same issue that Ireland has) then why not dual contract?

What issues do Ireland have Morg? Genuine question - not a snipe

Someone mentioned it earler, Ireland picking contracted players who could be out of form just to get their moneysworth.

Morgannwg wrote:SecretFly, apart from the North (who now have the development Region) who is left out of a Region?

You see this is where my comprehension probably breaks down... but when I look at the four regions, I see them being in a line along the extreme south coast of Wales. Their home grounds are in a line stretching from Llanelli, through Swansea, through Cardiff to Newport? That's about 55 miles as the crow flies between them. They are allegedly the southern home tips of expansive regions but...it's not true. Not on the map anyway.

There is no spread of regionalism through Wales in my eyes - it's a southern idea with its heart very much in the south. Now, that might be for very good political reasons (sporting politics) but I still feel a bit weird everytime I point out the anomoly as I see it of having so many 'regional' centres so close together and I get asked back "So what's the problem?"

Well, as an outsider looking in, that's always been the problem. I can't believe that the location of four regional homebases firmly in the south of a country could be ever be considered real 'regionalism'.

Morgannwg wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:If no to central contracts (in case we get the same issue that Ireland has) then why not dual contract?

What issues do Ireland have Morg? Genuine question - not a snipe

Someone mentioned it earler, Ireland picking contracted players who could be out of form just to get their moneysworth.

Yes, that one could be argued to an extent. Yes, it certainly could be argued. But the benefits of that system are also real in that the designated Internationals (contracted players) are protected during a season. That's not always a great thing for the players themselves as you can never guarantee safety and you need to play to be up to speed on fitness and form. But it does work in actually forcing coaches to be more creative with the teams they select and therefore there is always a string of younger players being given their run outs in Pro12. So whilst the big guys are in their cottonwool, the next generation of hopefuls are on the field learning their trade. Now without the central contracts a coach isn't often inclined to do that willingly (as the AP sides keep telling us). They might be smart coaches and do it anyway (rotating) but the greed for titles can often sidetrack the intention.

So yes, there might be a certain obligation to select centrally contracted players (although losing too many times kinda loosens the grip on that one I'd say in Union order terms ) - but the benefits of the system is that even though main players are forced to be rested it hasn't impacted all that much on Provincial team successes over the years as the younger guys are more integrated bit by bit than being thrown straight in when the main guys either get injured or retire.

SecretFly wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

They wanted to be at the top level of rubgy in Wales, and not feeder teams to regions.

also the split would be difficult as all the main clubs are in one area, so you had to divide these or else you would have had one super team, and 3 Connachts, or 2 super teams and 2 connachts.

Yeah... that's how it reads to me and was explained to me too a few times. But in a sense, that's what happened anyway...and all crushed together in a claustrophobic (metaphorical as well as real) cauldron when maybe more real planning might have divided the new 'regions' more from each other. Some might have suffered in early years but at least it would have been a natural beginning to a new direction rather than what it turned out to be - that compromise you spoke about that wasn't the best for anybody and didn't produce the four superteams anyway.

Secretfly, I think what they tried to do at the WRU was hedge their bets in terms of the 5 original regions. If they'd just divided into 4 equal regions, north south east west, then the risk is that no one would support them as they would be completely made up, representing nothing that exists elsewhere. That's where I think Ireland have such an advantage in this 'model'. At least with 'regions' based around existing teams, and 12 pro teams that were all in the South Wales area, the WRU could be pretty sure of getting some support, I.e. those forward thinking fans at the squished together clubs (like me at Newport!) who could see past the rivalries and support a new entity (but then I've got it easy as the new entity plays out of the same ground as I'd been going to anyway).

So, I think the WRU did this as a safe-ish way of getting something off the ground. Remember, there was no money around for new stadia so even with north south east west, they still would have had to play out of a former welsh premiership club's ground and would either 'alienate' 'disenfranchise' (delete as appropriate) those who had a rivalry for that club, or would end up playing at a not fit for purpose stadium. I mean, where would an East Wales team play? Newtown, Oswestry, Welshpool? I don't expect you to know the answer Fly! I'm thinking out loud really. But East Wales doesn't really have any stadia or rugby traditon. You have to go to the south east for that. Plus, we've got a massive mountain range in the middle of wales so the ideal location for the regions would be the tips of the compass, if that makes sense.

Just to add too that all of Wales was covered in the original carving up of the regions. The Scarlets had 'all of the rest', as it were. 3 regions in South/South East, and the Scarlets to represent everything west and north. Daft, but that's what happened!

Well rugby was a south game about 50 years before Regions anyway. Lampeter and Wrexham were given an F off tablet. Unfortunately. Travelling to North Wales isn't easy but that was the main reasoning behind it. Your point about the teams distance from each other is a sound one, yet some idiots want an extra team in the valleys down here.

Your province is based in the population centre, Dublin. As are ours. Ever think of that? You're right that the 'regions' aren't spread enough. If the North has one I think it's pretty much covered then as there isn't much in mid-wales apart from a nice town called Brecon.