Welsh Rugby Union say Wales's regions 'reject' central contracts

First topic message reminder :

Roger Lewis has revealed Wales's four rugby regions have rejected a Welsh Rugby Union offer to centrally contract their Welsh international players

The WRU planned to use the £6.2million they give to the regions for releasing their Welsh stars for international duty to fund the new central contracts.

The proposal hopes to keep Wales's top players playing club rugby in Wales.

"That offer was not accepted by the regions." WRU Group Chief Executive Roger Lewis writes in an open letter.

"That is their contractual right and I respect it.

"The recent debate, if you can call it that, about player salaries and sound bite solutions has been untimely, misinformed and damaging.

"An important fact to the salary issue is that the WRU, on August 14 this year, formally offered to the four regions to centrally contract the entire international squad of players within Wales.

"It would have meant that the WRU would have managed players' salaries and careers, and directly we would negotiate with any player seeking to leave Wales.

"The £6.2m player release money would be retained by the WRU to fund this and the surplus, and yes there is a surplus, would be spent on nurturing new talent."



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20001262



The bit in bold is the likely reason that the WRU's offer was rejected. That's my view, anyway. What do you think?

SecretFly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:If no to central contracts (in case we get the same issue that Ireland has) then why not dual contract?

What issues do Ireland have Morg? Genuine question - not a snipe

Someone mentioned it earler, Ireland picking contracted players who could be out of form just to get their moneysworth.

Yes, that one could be argued to an extent. Yes, it certainly could be argued. But the benefits of that system are also real in that the designated Internationals (contracted players) are protected during a season. That's not always a great thing for the players themselves as you can never guarantee safety and you need to play to be up to speed on fitness and form. But it does work in actually forcing coaches to be more creative with the teams they select and therefore there is always a string of younger players being given their run outs in Pro12. So whilst the big guys are in their cottonwool, the next genertation of hopefuls are on the field learning their trade. Now without the central contracts a coach isn't often inclined to do that willingly (as the AP sides keep telling us). They might be smart coaches and do it anyway (rotating) but the greed for titles can often sidetrack the intention.

So yes, there might be a certain obligation to select centrally contracted players (although losing too many times kinda loosens the grip on that one I'd say in Union order terms ) - but the benefits of the system is that even though main players are forced to be rested it hasn't impacted all that much on Provincial team successes over the years as the younger guys are more integrated bit by bit than being thrown straight in when the main guys either get injured or retire.

That's another point. I wouldn't want us to start integrating players. We've been chucking in young ones left, right and centre to great effect. I'm aware of IRFU's contracting system benefits btw so there was no need to tell me. If we were to go down that route I'd just wanna avoid the issue I mentioned.

I wouldn't even say Brecon was mid Wales Morgannwg! It's in line with Cheltenham! More north of the south area! Llandrindod Wells is more Mid Wales, but again no real rugby tradition.

On the point of Brecon, I remember bumping into Andy Powell in his local in Brecon. They had his Lions shirts and Wales shirts on the pub wall. Saw him in the toilets and he was literally a dribbling mess! Disgrace.

He loves his nights on the p1ss. This is something the next generation of players are not doing though. But my point was mid is and probably will continue to be integrated into the south regions.

They want the cash but not to be owned or onfluenced by the WRU...what they wanted was a blank cheque arrangement and the WRU weren't having it

SecretFly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:SecretFly, apart from the North (who now have the development Region) who is left out of a Region?

You see this is where my comprehension probably breaks down... but when I look at the four regions, I see them being in a line along the extreme south coast of Wales. Their home grounds are in a line stretching from Llanelli, through Swansea, through Cardiff to Newport? That's about 55 miles as the crow flies between them. They are allegedly the southern home tips of expansive regions but...it's not true. Not on the map anyway.

There is no spread of regionalism through Wales in my eyes - it's a southern idea with its heart very much in the south. Now, that might be for very good political reasons (sporting politics) but I still feel a bit weird everytime I point out the anomoly as I see it of having so many 'regional' centres so close together and I get asked back "So what's the problem?"

Well, as an outsider looking in, that's always been the problem. I can't believe that the location of four regional homebases firmly in the south of a country could be ever be considered real 'regionalism'.

Well spotted SecretFly. Have a cigar.
It's great to hear the views from "outsiders" as you refer to yourself.
If you like, the little boy in the crowd that notices that the emperor is in the nude; bless my cotton socks.
You mention "the map". It's changed a couple of times since 2003. The biggest alteration came in 2004 with the demise of the pretend Celtic Warrior region.
How convenient or maybe not?
Whatever. 10 years later and we're still arguing about "regionalism". When will it end?
Welsh rugby eh?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:SecretFly, apart from the North (who now have the development Region) who is left out of a Region?

You see this is where my comprehension probably breaks down... but when I look at the four regions, I see them being in a line along the extreme south coast of Wales. Their home grounds are in a line stretching from Llanelli, through Swansea, through Cardiff to Newport? That's about 55 miles as the crow flies between them. They are allegedly the southern home tips of expansive regions but...it's not true. Not on the map anyway.

There is no spread of regionalism through Wales in my eyes - it's a southern idea with its heart very much in the south. Now, that might be for very good political reasons (sporting politics) but I still feel a bit weird everytime I point out the anomoly as I see it of having so many 'regional' centres so close together and I get asked back "So what's the problem?"

Well, as an outsider looking in, that's always been the problem. I can't believe that the location of four regional homebases firmly in the south of a country could be ever be considered real 'regionalism'.

Well spotted SecretFly. Have a cigar.
It's great to hear the views from "outsiders" as you refer to yourself.
If you like, the little boy in the crowd that notices that the emperor is in the nude; bless my cotton socks.
You mention "the map". It's changed a couple of times since 2003. The biggest alteration came in 2004 with the demise of the pretend Celtic Warrior region.
How convenient or maybe not?
Whatever. 10 years later and we're still arguing about "regionalism". When will it end?
Welsh rugby eh?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Morgannwg wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:SecretFly, apart from the North (who now have the development Region) who is left out of a Region?

You see this is where my comprehension probably breaks down... but when I look at the four regions, I see them being in a line along the extreme south coast of Wales. Their home grounds are in a line stretching from Llanelli, through Swansea, through Cardiff to Newport? That's about 55 miles as the crow flies between them. They are allegedly the southern home tips of expansive regions but...it's not true. Not on the map anyway.

There is no spread of regionalism through Wales in my eyes - it's a southern idea with its heart very much in the south. Now, that might be for very good political reasons (sporting politics) but I still feel a bit weird everytime I point out the anomoly as I see it of having so many 'regional' centres so close together and I get asked back "So what's the problem?"

Well, as an outsider looking in, that's always been the problem. I can't believe that the location of four regional homebases firmly in the south of a country could be ever be considered real 'regionalism'.

Well spotted SecretFly. Have a cigar.
It's great to hear the views from "outsiders" as you refer to yourself.
If you like, the little boy in the crowd that notices that the emperor is in the nude; bless my cotton socks.
You mention "the map". It's changed a couple of times since 2003. The biggest alteration came in 2004 with the demise of the pretend Celtic Warrior region.
How convenient or maybe not?
Whatever. 10 years later and we're still arguing about "regionalism". When will it end?
Welsh rugby eh?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Why react with a post like that when it's the truth?

I think it was deliberate on behalf of the WRU...they don't want to give their hard earned to the regions.....by adding the clause about managing players careers they were making their contractual terms unacceptable and i reckon they knew it, and it leaves the WRU looking generous. Frankly if hte regions don't want the cash that bad they need to stop whining complaining about retention...ultimately the market will decide what players do, it always has in Wales where rugby is a job as much as a passion

Reaction from RRW;

"WALES' four rugby regions have vowed to work together with the Welsh Rugby Union to find a way to stem the tide of top talent leaving for France.

The move follows the Western Mail's exclusive revelation that the regions rejected an offer of central contracts from the WRU back in August.

Speaking on behalf of the regions, Regional Rugby Wales chief executive Stuart Gallacher refused to be drawn into a spat with the Union, insisting they are determined to find a solution to the problems currently facing the game in Wales.

“We have consistently stated that until we have found workable solutions for the challenges facing the whole of Welsh professional rugby, it is our firm belief that it’s not helpful to a complex process to get drawn into individual debates in public,” Gallacher said.

“What is important is that we consider and implement the right solutions for the whole of Welsh rugby; taking into account every level of the game in Wales and how that works together.

“It is also critical at this time that our regions and all our rugby supporters are able to concentrate on an important and exciting weekend of European rugby - both from performance and commercial perspectives.

“It is our primary duty to support our players and back the energy and effort going into Welsh rugby performances on the field in Europe’s top club competition; and it would be helpful, therefore, not to have any further distraction or disruption at this time from that task,” he added.

Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/10/19/welsh-regions-vow-to-work-with-wru-after-central-contracts-rejection-91466-32066406/#ixzz29m70rlUe

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:SecretFly, apart from the North (who now have the development Region) who is left out of a Region?

You see this is where my comprehension probably breaks down... but when I look at the four regions, I see them being in a line along the extreme south coast of Wales. Their home grounds are in a line stretching from Llanelli, through Swansea, through Cardiff to Newport? That's about 55 miles as the crow flies between them. They are allegedly the southern home tips of expansive regions but...it's not true. Not on the map anyway.

There is no spread of regionalism through Wales in my eyes - it's a southern idea with its heart very much in the south. Now, that might be for very good political reasons (sporting politics) but I still feel a bit weird everytime I point out the anomoly as I see it of having so many 'regional' centres so close together and I get asked back "So what's the problem?"

Well, as an outsider looking in, that's always been the problem. I can't believe that the location of four regional homebases firmly in the south of a country could be ever be considered real 'regionalism'.

Well spotted SecretFly. Have a cigar.
It's great to hear the views from "outsiders" as you refer to yourself.
If you like, the little boy in the crowd that notices that the emperor is in the nude; bless my cotton socks.
You mention "the map". It's changed a couple of times since 2003. The biggest alteration came in 2004 with the demise of the pretend Celtic Warrior region.
How convenient or maybe not?
Whatever. 10 years later and we're still arguing about "regionalism". When will it end?
Welsh rugby eh?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Why react with a post like that when it's the truth?

Cause I get tired of your nonsensical moaning. Zzzzz.

Morgannwg wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:SecretFly, apart from the North (who now have the development Region) who is left out of a Region?

You see this is where my comprehension probably breaks down... but when I look at the four regions, I see them being in a line along the extreme south coast of Wales. Their home grounds are in a line stretching from Llanelli, through Swansea, through Cardiff to Newport? That's about 55 miles as the crow flies between them. They are allegedly the southern home tips of expansive regions but...it's not true. Not on the map anyway.

There is no spread of regionalism through Wales in my eyes - it's a southern idea with its heart very much in the south. Now, that might be for very good political reasons (sporting politics) but I still feel a bit weird everytime I point out the anomoly as I see it of having so many 'regional' centres so close together and I get asked back "So what's the problem?"

Well, as an outsider looking in, that's always been the problem. I can't believe that the location of four regional homebases firmly in the south of a country could be ever be considered real 'regionalism'.

Well spotted SecretFly. Have a cigar.
It's great to hear the views from "outsiders" as you refer to yourself.
If you like, the little boy in the crowd that notices that the emperor is in the nude; bless my cotton socks.
You mention "the map". It's changed a couple of times since 2003. The biggest alteration came in 2004 with the demise of the pretend Celtic Warrior region.
How convenient or maybe not?
Whatever. 10 years later and we're still arguing about "regionalism". When will it end?
Welsh rugby eh?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Why react with a post like that when it's the truth?

Cause I get tired of your nonsensical moaning. Zzzzz.

I'm not being nonsensical and i'm not moaning. Merely commentating.
I was replying to SecretFly by the way, an outsider who can't make sense of regionalism.
You have a go if you can do better.

Dave, you did sound like you were being condescending, a bit aggressive, a bit a*sey towards SectetFly in fairness. He was just saying how it seemed from the outside; just being interested.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:SecretFly, apart from the North (who now have the development Region) who is left out of a Region?

You see this is where my comprehension probably breaks down... but when I look at the four regions, I see them being in a line along the extreme south coast of Wales. Their home grounds are in a line stretching from Llanelli, through Swansea, through Cardiff to Newport? That's about 55 miles as the crow flies between them. They are allegedly the southern home tips of expansive regions but...it's not true. Not on the map anyway.

There is no spread of regionalism through Wales in my eyes - it's a southern idea with its heart very much in the south. Now, that might be for very good political reasons (sporting politics) but I still feel a bit weird everytime I point out the anomoly as I see it of having so many 'regional' centres so close together and I get asked back "So what's the problem?"

Well, as an outsider looking in, that's always been the problem. I can't believe that the location of four regional homebases firmly in the south of a country could be ever be considered real 'regionalism'.

Well spotted SecretFly. Have a cigar.
It's great to hear the views from "outsiders" as you refer to yourself.
If you like, the little boy in the crowd that notices that the emperor is in the nude; bless my cotton socks.
You mention "the map". It's changed a couple of times since 2003. The biggest alteration came in 2004 with the demise of the pretend Celtic Warrior region.
How convenient or maybe not?
Whatever. 10 years later and we're still arguing about "regionalism". When will it end?
Welsh rugby eh?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Why react with a post like that when it's the truth?

Cause I get tired of your nonsensical moaning. Zzzzz.

I'm not being nonsensical and i'm not moaning. Merely commentating.
I was replying to SecretFly by the way, an outsider who can't make sense of regionalism.
You have a go if you can do better.

Have a go? You're quoting my discussion with him cupcake...

mowgli wrote:I think it was deliberate on behalf of the WRU...they don't want to give their hard earned to the regions.....by adding the clause about managing players careers they were making their contractual terms unacceptable and i reckon they knew it, and it leaves the WRU looking generous. Frankly if hte regions don't want the cash that bad they need to stop whining complaining about retention...ultimately the market will decide what players do, it always has in Wales where rugby is a job as much as a passion

I think so too and it's fairly obvious that RRW and the WRU just don't get on. I was under the impression that a long term solution was imminent, but it looks further away than ever especially after today's RRW response.

The regions obviously need funding, similar to what they have now on top of having their international players wages payed by the WRU. But there shouldn't even be a RRW.

Griff wrote:Dave, you did sound like you were being condescending, a bit aggressive, a bit a*sey towards SectetFly in fairness. He was just saying how it seemed from the outside; just being interested.

Well I didn't intend too if that was the case. Must be the written word I guess and I could tell he was interested which I thought was great.
But SecretFly is bang on the money. That's the point. An outsider that can see something that doesn't add up or make sense.
As you most probably appreciate Griff we've been arguing the toss about regionalism for nearly 10 years and we're still not getting anywhere. Infact, with the recent Valleys rugby initiative, it's got worse. Now we have this latest spat about central contracts just when the HEC is kicking off. Welsh rugby is nuts!

Lookout. I've been called a cupcake.

Morgannwg wrote:The regions obviously need funding, similar to what they have now on top of having their international players wages payed by the WRU. But there shouldn't even be a RRW.

Agreed.

SecretFly wrote:Okay, so I'm clearly an outsider and I'm not familiar with the politics of area in Wales. So forgive me my ignorance but still listen to my point Why wasn't an American straight-line-division solution used to create the new (only rugby) regions where evidently none existed before 'regionalisation?

To me a region is a region - by definition that should mean that when you add up the regions - however many - they should make a whole (territorywise). So no part of Wales should have ended up...well, outside a region???

If Wales had been divided along straight lines into four areas then if you are from the Northern region, that's where you're from. And your allegience is then natural, not enforced as the idea seems to be now when what in truth is only the south of Wales was 'regionalised'. When one region is 'regionalised' and other areas feel completely out of the regional map then, in my eyes, of course there was always going to be major friction.

Anyway, as I say, know it's a very complicated subject in Wales but that logical step of actually including all of Wales in a true 'regional' solution might have cut out the close-neighbours infighting that seems to be the recipe in south Wales regional rugby at present.

Take a bow, SecretFly, probably the best concise summary of Welsh rugby I've ever read.

This is why we need outsiders with an impartial view to manage Welsh rugby. Left to our own devices we form committees to argue over sandwich fillings and sack coaches that have just won the Grand Slam.

Keep Gatland, slot an American in as Chairman, a Chinese fella as CEO - Wales and NZ will dominate world rugby for the next decade.

Cas, maybe you and Dave turn a blind eye to this. What SecretFly has said in his summary is what everyone in Wales says. So why is it all of a sudden take a bow SecretFly?

Casartelli wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Okay, so I'm clearly an outsider and I'm not familiar with the politics of area in Wales. So forgive me my ignorance but still listen to my point Why wasn't an American straight-line-division solution used to create the new (only rugby) regions where evidently none existed before 'regionalisation?

To me a region is a region - by definition that should mean that when you add up the regions - however many - they should make a whole (territorywise). So no part of Wales should have ended up...well, outside a region???

If Wales had been divided along straight lines into four areas then if you are from the Northern region, that's where you're from. And your allegience is then natural, not enforced as the idea seems to be now when what in truth is only the south of Wales was 'regionalised'. When one region is 'regionalised' and other areas feel completely out of the regional map then, in my eyes, of course there was always going to be major friction.

Anyway, as I say, know it's a very complicated subject in Wales but that logical step of actually including all of Wales in a true 'regional' solution might have cut out the close-neighbours infighting that seems to be the recipe in south Wales regional rugby at present.

Take a bow, SecretFly, probably the best concise summary of Welsh rugby I've ever read.

This is why we need outsiders with an impartial view to manage Welsh rugby. Left to our own devices we form committees to argue over sandwich fillings and sack coaches that have just won the Grand Slam.

Keep Gatland, slot an American in as Chairman, a Chinese fella as CEO - Wales and NZ will dominate world rugby for the next decade.

Hold up Casartelli, what about the multi millionaire money men like Merthyr born, ex Cardiff hooker, Peter Thomas?

Conciseness. If that's a real word.

Casartelli wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Okay, so I'm clearly an outsider and I'm not familiar with the politics of area in Wales. So forgive me my ignorance but still listen to my point Why wasn't an American straight-line-division solution used to create the new (only rugby) regions where evidently none existed before 'regionalisation?

To me a region is a region - by definition that should mean that when you add up the regions - however many - they should make a whole (territorywise). So no part of Wales should have ended up...well, outside a region???

If Wales had been divided along straight lines into four areas then if you are from the Northern region, that's where you're from. And your allegience is then natural, not enforced as the idea seems to be now when what in truth is only the south of Wales was 'regionalised'. When one region is 'regionalised' and other areas feel completely out of the regional map then, in my eyes, of course there was always going to be major friction.

Anyway, as I say, know it's a very complicated subject in Wales but that logical step of actually including all of Wales in a true 'regional' solution might have cut out the close-neighbours infighting that seems to be the recipe in south Wales regional rugby at present.

Take a bow, SecretFly, probably the best concise summary of Welsh rugby I've ever read.

This is why we need outsiders with an impartial view to manage Welsh rugby. Left to our own devices we form committees to argue over sandwich fillings and sack coaches that have just won the Grand Slam.

Keep Gatland, slot an American in as Chairman, a Chinese fella as CEO - Wales and NZ will dominate world rugby for the next decade.

Casterelli, I know Secretfly's post is the most logical approach, but is it the most practical? As I posted earlier, if we divided Wales equally into 4 equal regions then where would the teams play? New stadia? Who would have paid for that? Who in 'East Wales' would have gone to the games? Hopefully thousands, but East Wales is notoriously low populated and as 'border towns' tend to be more interested in football. Maybe a bit of a sweeping statement, but I don't see many big rugby teams in East Wales.

Apart from the way they did regional rugby in Wales they got the terminology wrong too, and I think that is as much to do with the problem as anything. Regional suggests an equal split, provincial would have been wrong too. We've got teams based on 'Bands/pockets of dense Population across South Wales', but I guess that hasn't got much of a ring to it. However, as everyone agrees that central Wales is petty much non-contributory in terms of teams, players (apart from Lydiate!) and fans then if and when the north Wales team has an official role in the big picture then we'll have all of the densely populated areas of Wales covered. Call them super clubs if that helps the understanding, but we can't be compared to Ireland or New Zealand, even if that's the model we're aspiring too, because we weren't set up the same and we have no way (in rugby terms) of creating those ideal country divides.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Okay, so I'm clearly an outsider and I'm not familiar with the politics of area in Wales. So forgive me my ignorance but still listen to my point Why wasn't an American straight-line-division solution used to create the new (only rugby) regions where evidently none existed before 'regionalisation?

To me a region is a region - by definition that should mean that when you add up the regions - however many - they should make a whole (territorywise). So no part of Wales should have ended up...well, outside a region???

If Wales had been divided along straight lines into four areas then if you are from the Northern region, that's where you're from. And your allegience is then natural, not enforced as the idea seems to be now when what in truth is only the south of Wales was 'regionalised'. When one region is 'regionalised' and other areas feel completely out of the regional map then, in my eyes, of course there was always going to be major friction.

Anyway, as I say, know it's a very complicated subject in Wales but that logical step of actually including all of Wales in a true 'regional' solution might have cut out the close-neighbours infighting that seems to be the recipe in south Wales regional rugby at present.

Take a bow, SecretFly, probably the best concise summary of Welsh rugby I've ever read.

This is why we need outsiders with an impartial view to manage Welsh rugby. Left to our own devices we form committees to argue over sandwich fillings and sack coaches that have just won the Grand Slam.

Keep Gatland, slot an American in as Chairman, a Chinese fella as CEO - Wales and NZ will dominate world rugby for the next decade.

Hold up Casartelli, what about the multi millionaire money men like Merthyr born, ex Cardiff hooker, Peter Thomas?

I respect Peter Thomas. Lucked into a fortune due to nobody's work but his own (and his dad's). But his rugby knowledge could be summarised on a grain of rice.

Give him his hospitality box so he can smoke cee-gars with Gareth Edwards and that builder fella - but leave the rugby decisions to someone else.

Rush, Blair and Tito is a one time only trick. Isn't going to help Welsh rugby 'going forward'.

Griff wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Okay, so I'm clearly an outsider and I'm not familiar with the politics of area in Wales. So forgive me my ignorance but still listen to my point Why wasn't an American straight-line-division solution used to create the new (only rugby) regions where evidently none existed before 'regionalisation?

To me a region is a region - by definition that should mean that when you add up the regions - however many - they should make a whole (territorywise). So no part of Wales should have ended up...well, outside a region???

If Wales had been divided along straight lines into four areas then if you are from the Northern region, that's where you're from. And your allegience is then natural, not enforced as the idea seems to be now when what in truth is only the south of Wales was 'regionalised'. When one region is 'regionalised' and other areas feel completely out of the regional map then, in my eyes, of course there was always going to be major friction.

Anyway, as I say, know it's a very complicated subject in Wales but that logical step of actually including all of Wales in a true 'regional' solution might have cut out the close-neighbours infighting that seems to be the recipe in south Wales regional rugby at present.

Take a bow, SecretFly, probably the best concise summary of Welsh rugby I've ever read.

This is why we need outsiders with an impartial view to manage Welsh rugby. Left to our own devices we form committees to argue over sandwich fillings and sack coaches that have just won the Grand Slam.

Keep Gatland, slot an American in as Chairman, a Chinese fella as CEO - Wales and NZ will dominate world rugby for the next decade.

Casterelli, I know Secretfly's post is the most logical approach, but is it the most practical? As I posted earlier, if we divided Wales equally into 4 equal regions then where would the teams play? New stadia? Who would have paid for that? Who in 'East Wales' would have gone to the games? Hopefully thousands, but East Wales is notoriously low populated and as 'border towns' tend to be more interested in football. Maybe a bit of a sweeping statement, but I don't see many big rugby teams in East Wales.

Apart from the way they did regional rugby in Wales they got the terminology wrong too, and I think that is as much to do with the problem as anything. Regional suggests an equal split, provincial would have been wrong too. We've got teams based on 'Bands/pockets of dense Population across South Wales', but I guess that hasn't got much of a ring to it. However, as everyone agrees that central Wales is petty much non-contributory in terms of teams, players (apart from Lydiate!) and fans then if and when the north Wales team has an official role in the big picture then we'll have all of the densely populated areas of Wales covered. Call them super clubs if that helps the understanding, but we can't be compared to Ireland or New Zealand, even if that's the model we're aspiring too, because we weren't set up the same and we have no way (in rugby terms) of creating those ideal country divides.

Totally agree Griff. Time to accept the best of a horrendously bad job, call them "Pro Teams", fund them properly and let's all move on.

Morgannwg wrote:Cas, maybe you and Dave turn a blind eye to this. What SecretFly has said in his summary is what everyone in Wales says. So why is it all of a sudden take a bow SecretFly?

SecretFly has suggested correctly that we don't seem to have proper regions yet the media in Wales, Scrum V for example tend to say we do. Plus the Labour MP for Pontypridd (Valleys rugby) says we don't have proper regions at all and that Cardiff Blues are simply Cardiff as they've always have been.
How mixed up can we get?
Welsh rugby is totally tonto.
Anybody listen to Sale v Cardiff Blues on the radio last week? Didn't think so.
Robert Jones, ex Welsh scrum half and Scrum V pundit was co-commentator. Hilarious stuff.
The lengths he went to to avoid saying the "C" word was admirable.

But Cardiff Blues are Cardiff - says so on the website.

Same for Newport Gwent Dragons.

Scarlets website proudly gives the history of the club - Llanelli Scarlets were formed from Llanelli RFC and subsequently are known as the Scarlets.

No such thing as 'regions' no matter how often Roger Lewis says the word.

Welsh media and most of the casual fanbase hate marketing spin b**locks. Call them Pro Teams and let's all move on?

What do the media and Pontypridd's MP know. Ef all about rugby and that is a fact. You, I, and many other fans up and down the country know what they are (superclubs), we frequently discuss them. So just wondered why Fly was congratulated by Cas for saying what we have already said and already know. You reiterated it so you could have your usual whinge about the Regions. Perhaps that is what Cas wanted too.

Casartelli wrote:But Cardiff Blues are Cardiff - says so on the website.

Same for Newport Gwent Dragons.

Scarlets website proudly gives the history of the club - Llanelli Scarlets were formed from Llanelli RFC and subsequently are known as the Scarlets.

No such thing as 'regions' no matter how often Roger Lewis says the word.

Welsh media and most of the casual fanbase hate marketing spin b**locks. Call them Pro Teams and let's all move on?

Or District teams.

Interesting comments about the WRU. You know the 'regionalisation' idea was brought over by rugby coaches who aren't Welsh? When it happened, do you also remember where the WRU chief executive was from?

Morgannwg wrote:What do the media and Pontypridd's MP know. Ef all about rugby and that is a fact. You, I, and many other fans up and down the country know what they are (superclubs), we frequently discuss them. So just wondered why Fly was congratulated by Cas for saying what we have already said and already know. You reiterated it so you could have your usual whinge about the Regions. Perhaps that is what Cas wanted too.

Not at all. I'm saying embrace what we have now. The WRU should fund it properly and we can all move forward. The only change I want now is to refer to them as "Pro Teams" and drop the marketing crap/drab reference to 'regional rugby'.

Griff wrote:

Casterelli, I know Secretfly's post is the most logical approach, but is it the most practical? As I posted earlier, if we divided Wales equally into 4 equal regions then where would the teams play? New stadia? Who would have paid for that? Who in 'East Wales' would have gone to the games? Hopefully thousands, but East Wales is notoriously low populated and as 'border towns' tend to be more interested in football. Maybe a bit of a sweeping statement, but I don't see many big rugby teams in East Wales.

Apart from the way they did regional rugby in Wales they got the terminology wrong too, and I think that is as much to do with the problem as anything. Regional suggests an equal split, provincial would have been wrong too. We've got teams based on 'Bands/pockets of dense Population across South Wales', but I guess that hasn't got much of a ring to it. However, as everyone agrees that central Wales is petty much non-contributory in terms of teams, players (apart from Lydiate!) and fans then if and when the north Wales team has an official role in the big picture then we'll have all of the densely populated areas of Wales covered. Call them super clubs if that helps the understanding, but we can't be compared to Ireland or New Zealand, even if that's the model we're aspiring too, because we weren't set up the same and we have no way (in rugby terms) of creating those ideal country divides.

Imo we messed up from day one with the pretend regional concept. Llanelli and Cardiff stood alone for a start, so how regional was that especailly when the regional lines on the map weren't even drawn. Should have been honest about it to begin with. Ponty didn't want to merge with Bridgend either for gods sake.

Yeah but like it has also been previously mentioned, they need more than just a name change. The people of Ponty and some other areas will never support them.

May I ask, did you post under the name of RegionalSceptic on 606 a long time ago?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Casterelli, I know Secretfly's post is the most logical approach, but is it the most practical? As I posted earlier, if we divided Wales equally into 4 equal regions then where would the teams play? New stadia? Who would have paid for that? Who in 'East Wales' would have gone to the games? Hopefully thousands, but East Wales is notoriously low populated and as 'border towns' tend to be more interested in football. Maybe a bit of a sweeping statement, but I don't see many big rugby teams in East Wales.

Apart from the way they did regional rugby in Wales they got the terminology wrong too, and I think that is as much to do with the problem as anything. Regional suggests an equal split, provincial would have been wrong too. We've got teams based on 'Bands/pockets of dense Population across South Wales', but I guess that hasn't got much of a ring to it. However, as everyone agrees that central Wales is petty much non-contributory in terms of teams, players (apart from Lydiate!) and fans then if and when the north Wales team has an official role in the big picture then we'll have all of the densely populated areas of Wales covered. Call them super clubs if that helps the understanding, but we can't be compared to Ireland or New Zealand, even if that's the model we're aspiring too, because we weren't set up the same and we have no way (in rugby terms) of creating those ideal country divides.

Imo we messed up from day one with the pretend regional concept. Llanelli and Cardiff stood alone for a start, so how regional was that especailly when the regional lines on the map weren't even drawn. Should have been honest about it to begin with. Ponty didn't want to merge with Bridgend either for gods sake.

Exactly. WRU missed the chance to do it properly and that chance is never coming back. They now have to make the best of a bad job or this petty squabbling will carry on for the next 10 years.

Fund it properly, drop the 'regional' tag and forge one Welsh rugby entity.

What was properly (the way you think it should have been done) may I also ask Cas? Badly executed from day 1, that is correct. There should have never been 'stand-alone' statuses. If we went East, West, Mid and North where do you think East and West would play their games? Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport by any chance? Because those two Regions would be the only decent ones with the latter two being development. No matter what changes are made the location of our Regions, Superclubs or Principalities (which they should be named after) will likely be the same.

Morgannwg wrote:What do the media and Pontypridd's MP know. Ef all about rugby and that is a fact. You, I, and many other fans up and down the country know what they are (superclubs), we frequently discuss them. So just wondered why Fly was congratulated by Cas for saying what we have already said and already know. You reiterated it so you could have your usual whinge about the Regions. Perhaps that is what Cas wanted too.

Everytime I used to suggest Cardiff Blues were just Cardiff as they used to be i'd get ridiculed by some.
I know they are Cardiff.
I've always known they are still Cardiff and nowt changed in 2003 other than the silly shirts and badge.
Ponty fans know they are Cardiff which is a very good indicator by the way.
A region whatever that means? Nah.

Casartelli wrote:

Exactly. WRU missed the chance to do it properly and that chance is never coming back. They now have to make the best of a bad job or this petty squabbling will carry on for the next 10 years.

Fund it properly, drop the 'regional' tag and forge one Welsh rugby entity.

What chance or choice did the WRU have back in 2002/2003? As far as I can remember nothing much of either.

Morgannwg wrote:What was properly (the way you think it should have been done) may I also ask Cas? Badly executed from day 1, that is correct. There should have never been 'stand-alone' statuses. If we went East, West, Mid and North where do you think East and West would play their games? Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport by any chance? Because those two Regions would be the only decent ones with the latter two being development. No matter what changes are made the location of our Regions, Superclubs or Principalities (which they should be named after) will likely be the same.

Yeah, agree with most of that. I think taking some games 'on the road' would have been a massive step forward but that is a moot point now - Roger Lewis has stated that no major changes will take place during the current phase of the rolling phaseness phasey plan, so time to stop whinging.

WRU need to fund the pro teams properly, impose central contracts and push Llanelli, Ospreys, Cardiff and NGD into the pro rugby era.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Exactly. WRU missed the chance to do it properly and that chance is never coming back. They now have to make the best of a bad job or this petty squabbling will carry on for the next 10 years.

Fund it properly, drop the 'regional' tag and forge one Welsh rugby entity.

What chance or choice did the WRU have back in 2002/2003? As far as I can remember nothing much of either.

He either means Henry's idea; or East, West, Mid, North. Frankly, you can't just plant a team in mid Wales or North Wales when there had been no top flight rugby set up for half a century. Hence why they are in the South. At least the WRU has gone the correct way of establishing a North Wales Region. Got to cut them some slack for that.

Thanks Cas. So yeah, were you the RegionalSceptic then? It's okay if you were. I'm just curious. And if you were you had a lot more venom in your comments about the pro teams back then. So things always change, just gradually.

Morgannwg wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Exactly. WRU missed the chance to do it properly and that chance is never coming back. They now have to make the best of a bad job or this petty squabbling will carry on for the next 10 years.

Fund it properly, drop the 'regional' tag and forge one Welsh rugby entity.

What chance or choice did the WRU have back in 2002/2003? As far as I can remember nothing much of either.

He either means Henry's idea; or East, West, Mid, North. Frankly, you can't just plant a team in mid Wales or North Wales when there had been no top flight rugby set up for half a century. Hence why they are in the South. At least the WRU has gone the correct way of establishing a North Wales Region. Got to cut them some slack for that.

Thanks Cas. So yeah, were you the RegionalSceptic then? It's okay if you were. I'm just curious. And if you were you had a lot more venom in your comments about the pro teams back then. So things always change, just gradually.

Oh, sorry, was that directed at me? No, I was formerly MrFahrenheit on 606, but that name never worked on 606v2 (I believe some Llanelli fans conspired to block it).

I was always supportive of having only three or four 'elite' (for want of a better word) teams. But it was implemented in such a shambolic manner that it wasn't worth the time or money (we may as well have promoted the top four teams from the Welsh league and had promotion/demotion to and from the celtic league).

And continuing to try and shoehorn the term 'regional' into it is pointless. As people have said, be honest and call it what it is.

Morgannwg wrote:Yeah but like it has also been previously mentioned, they need more than just a name change. The people of Ponty and some other areas will never support them.

May I ask, did you post under the name of RegionalSceptic on 606 a long time ago?

Yes Cardiff Blues need a name change and a badge change and a shirt change too.
Until recently a ground change as well, but we've managed to win that.
Some people from Ponty actually do support Cardiff although not all obviously.
No I wasn't that regional bloke.
I'm Dave from Cardiff not a sceptic from a mythical region.
My heart is on my sleeve, I don't pretend and I hate cowpat.

That comment was in reply to Cas, whom the question was also directed at.

Too much male bonding on here tonight. I'm going to bed before it goes all Brokeback.

Casartelli wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Imo we messed up from day one with the pretend regional concept. Llanelli and Cardiff stood alone for a start, so how regional was that especailly when the regional lines on the map weren't even drawn. Should have been honest about it to begin with. Ponty didn't want to merge with Bridgend either for gods sake.

Exactly. WRU missed the chance to do it properly and that chance is never coming back. They now have to make the best of a bad job or this petty squabbling will carry on for the next 10 years.

Fund it properly, drop the 'regional' tag and forge one Welsh rugby entity.

But the WRU had no clout back then. Not so sure they have that much more now given the bickering that is being reported in the Welsh media.
Thank the Lord that it's HEC time and Scrum V BBC2 is taking a break otherwise we'd have to listen to them pundits chomping at the bit.

Not too sure where RRW the WRU go from here considering the latest press releases. They clearly hate each other.

Agreed that the regional nonsense should be binned. Because that's what it is and always has been, a nonsense.

Casartelli wrote:Too much male bonding on here tonight. I'm going to bed before it goes all Brokeback.

Ooh chase me.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the WRU want something specific for their money or to say how it will be spent. It seems very strange to me that the organization responsible for keeping these entities afloat doesn't have more say in this regard.

Sorry if this is an ignorant question but I wonder why instead of giving money to the regions each year the WRU doesn't buy shares in them or become official investors? They seem to have little or no say in how the regions are run and yet spend millions on them every year.

Central contracts - seems to create a division between elite players and non-international class players.

How does it work in Ireland? What happens if a non-centrally contracted player is in much better form than a centrally contracted player? Isn't there a temptation to stick with an underperforming "elite" player rather than bring in a form player?

Conservatism and sticking to your mates has often been a problem in Welsh selection. Wouldn't want to make it structural.

Welsh Regions turn down a deal from the WRU that involves them handing over their most valuable assets in exchange for a £2M cut in annual funding!

Wow I did not see that coming!

In Ireland when you see a new player capped he typically doesn't have a central contract yet but would be paid by the province. As the provinces are ultimately owned by the IRFU if the national team want him and the province need him for another match I don't imagine that the province get first dibs.

samuraidragon wrote:Central contracts - seems to create a division between elite players and non-international class players.

How does it work in Ireland? What happens if a non-centrally contracted player is in much better form than a centrally contracted player? Isn't there a temptation to stick with an underperforming "elite" player rather than bring in a form player?

Yes that's the downside of central contracts. No one is going to say publically that the official policy is to pick guys on the central contracts over those who aren't but it doesn't take a genius to work out that the if the IRFU (or WRU) are paying a central contact then they'll want a return on that investment.

As we've seen over here over the past few years its pretty hard for new players to break into the national side, whilst some established guys get picked year in year out without performing, and central contracts are one reason for that I believe.

That's not to say central contacts are a bad idea per se but they have their drawbacks.

rodders wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:Central contracts - seems to create a division between elite players and non-international class players.

How does it work in Ireland? What happens if a non-centrally contracted player is in much better form than a centrally contracted player? Isn't there a temptation to stick with an underperforming "elite" player rather than bring in a form player?

Yes that's the downside of central contracts. No one is going to say publically that the official policy is to pick guys on the central contracts over those who aren't but it doesn't take a genius to work out that the if the IRFU (or WRU) are paying a central contact then they'll want a return on that investment.

As we've seen over here over the past few years its pretty hard for new players to break into the national side, whilst some established guys get picked year in year out without performing, and central contracts are one reason for that I believe.

That's not to say central contacts are a bad idea per se but they have their drawbacks.

Thanks for explanation. To me that is a significant problem. Most times in Wales we have a core of top-class players who will have long internaitonal careers and will be first choice for a very long time. At the same the international 15, even more so the 22, will also contain other players who are not at that level and will drift in and out of the frame as their form varies and new guys come along.

Roughly how many Irish players are centrally contracted as a percent of the regional squads? At what age does it happen, and can they be "de-contracted" if they lose their mojo? (it all sounds a bit like being a "made man" in the mafia)

No problem, remember thats just like my opinion man....

I don't think the official list is public but I think it's 20-22 (it did get reduced there I think).

In terms of the split across the provinces, Leinster have the bulk as they make up most of the national side, with Ulster now catching up with Munster.

Can they be de-contracted? Well a contract is a contract so no but players won't get a renewel if they don't perform or fall out of favour. For example Luke Fitzgerald lost his there recently. O'Leary is another, who lost out to Murray.

I think the central contracts do certainly benefit the Irish provinces as it helps keep the best players in the country, however I do think when it comes to the national selection there is a bit of a higherarchy there. Even at provincial level its hard for less extablished players to get starts in the big games because obviously the IRFU want the contracted players playing.

I think that has held back some of our younger guys like McFadden and Donnacha Ryan a bit. Again just an oppinion and there are lots of guys here who know more about this than me.....