Wlad is an ATG...um'kay

First topic message reminder :

I've just finished watching the David Haye Vs Wlad Klitschko fight again. And I'm willing to say there isn't a heavyweight in history who could beat today's version of Wlad (except maybe Lewis)

Forget about his losses years ago. He's a different fighter now. What a talent. His concentration is frightening.

When circumstances conspire against dominant greats, so that they are left untested in their era (for instance Marciano), we must either penalize them or rely on simplistic imaginary head-to-head's when rating.

I expect some flack for this, but I genuinely think Wlad is a Top 5 ATG!

I think with a lack of agreed criteria for making ATG lists then it is unfair to penalize Wlad for the lack of a career defining fight, his early losses, or the era he fights in. The guy is a true great. Forget blood and guts; this man is a clean and clinical surgeon. Truly Amazing.

To my mind he's only ever taken one big punch, he has a very very good that much is certain but I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest he's up there with the likes of McCall.

McCall didn't get hit to hard by Lewis. Lewis was too scared to get close and mean. To my mind his chin is more than proven. Sanders hit him flush and Corrie was no slouch in the hitting department.

I think Vitali's and McCall's are incomparable to be honest, Vitali was hurt against Lewis and Sanders though he did take the punches well but McCall was never even wobbled in his whole career. I can't think of a fighter alive who could have put McCall down with the possible exception of a young Foreman. Bruno's right hand in the first round of their fight is the only time i've seen McCall close to being stunned.

Vitali has a very good chin but his defense is tremendous so he rarely get's hit, McCall could be hit and although he wasn't agressive he was apparently never down in more than 300 rounds of sparring with Tyson which tells it's own story.

eddyfightfan wrote:if anyones underrated its vitali, hes the real man, better cv and no poor loses. his chin is one of if not the best in the game ever, and he is more entertaining to watch, not to mention the fact that he avenged wlads losses for him.

Imo Wlad has a lot more quality wins, even in Vitali's "prime" before he retired he was taking on the likes of Danny Williams whereas Wlad has been knocking out top 10 opponents for 8 years now. The likes of Haye,Chagaev,Byrd and even Peter at his best are all imo better than anything Vitali has on his CV.

i think vk's chin is pretty well proven, he shipped more leather than just the one uppercut against lewis in that fight and you don't have 50 odd fights without having your whiskers tested a few times, even if you're a jolly green giant. He was however, apparently knocked clean out by pele reid in a kickboxing fight... with a kick i might add!

A well placed kick is significantly harder than a punch mind you.

All-time great based on fencing his way tentatively past David Haye?

Deary me..........

Klitschko isn't a great fighter. Each time he's been tested, he has crumbled (unless you count his off-the-floor comeback against, gulp, Sam Peter). He's an efficient boxer, one that has tailored his physical advantages to a fighting style that allows him to avoid punches. And his competition has been abysmal. Who has he beaten that someone like, say, Frank Bruno wouldn't have?

Anyone with a bit of something about them would set fire to him. He had everything on Haye, a manufactured heavyweight with a distinctly ordinary record at that weight.

hazharrison wrote: All-time great based on fencing his way tentatively past David Haye?

Who's elevated him to all time great on that one performance?

I'm just watching "Coming to America" - the one with Eddie Murphy and in the scene where they're discussing boxing, I came to the conclusion.

Azania is in that scene.

"Every time we talkin' about boxin there always a white man who gotta talk about Rocky Marciano"

"Rocky Marciano beat Joe Louis"

"Joe Louis was about 75 year old!"

hazharrison wrote:All-time great based on fencing his way tentatively past David Haye?

Deary me..........

Klitschko isn't a great fighter. Each time he's been tested, he has crumbled (unless you count his off-the-floor comeback against, gulp, Sam Peter). He's an efficient boxer, one that has tailored his physical advantages to a fighting style that allows him to avoid punches. And his competition has been abysmal. Who has he beaten that someone like, say, Frank Bruno wouldn't have?

Anyone with a bit of something about them would set fire to him. He had everything on Haye, a manufactured heavyweight with a distinctly ordinary record at that weight.

your right, i dont think wlad has faced anyone who frank wouldnt have beat, and picked up a few losses big frank probably would have avoided.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:I'm just watching "Coming to America" - the one with Eddie Murphy and in the scene where they're discussing boxing, I came to the conclusion.

Azania is in that scene.

"Every time we talkin' about boxin there always a white man who gotta talk about Rocky Marciano"

"Rocky Marciano beat Joe Louis"

"Joe Louis was about 75 year old!"

hazharrison wrote:All-time great based on fencing his way tentatively past David Haye?

Deary me..........

Klitschko isn't a great fighter. Each time he's been tested, he has crumbled (unless you count his off-the-floor comeback against, gulp, Sam Peter). He's an efficient boxer, one that has tailored his physical advantages to a fighting style that allows him to avoid punches. And his competition has been abysmal. Who has he beaten that someone like, say, Frank Bruno wouldn't have?

Anyone with a bit of something about them would set fire to him. He had everything on Haye, a manufactured heavyweight with a distinctly ordinary record at that weight.

David Haye, Eddie Chambers, Thompson, Chagaev amongst others would have battered Bruno. People forget Frank Bruno was a clown with a decent dig who capitalised after the "our 'Enery" era on the British love of thicko heavyweights. Big Frank wasn't that big and to be frank was garbage operating at a level below the crud of the eighties which included such fatties as Tim Witherspoon and Bonecrusher Smith who both pummelled Bruno into la la land come to think of it.

Wasn't Bruno beating both of them quite clearly until his chin let him down? Eeeh, do you know what, I think he was...

Eddie Chambers isn't beating Bruno anytime soon, neither are the likes of Chagaev or Thompson. Thompson is a great lanky fighter like Jose Ribalta and Frank dispatched of him easily enough.

Haye has the speed, reflexes and dig to trouble Frank but if he can't get past the jab then, like against Wlad, he is going to spend the whole fight on the outside looking for a lucky punch.

Ribalt a was a walking corpse when he fought Bruno. He was also a very average fighter. Everytime Bruno stepped up, he lost except for the one occassion. He never fought a top 10 rated fighter unless it was a title shot.

Think you might be selling Bruno a little bit short there, Boon. He was never really outclassed throughout his whole career, the two Tyson fights aside.

I'd certainly back Haye to stop him late on; too much speed and movement for Frank to get rid of him early, and if it goes past the mid stages then Bruno has little more than a prayer. Chagaev may be able to upset Bruno, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Bruno over-powers him. Not much in that one either way, I'd imagine.

But I'd back Bruno heavily to blow Chambers away, and Thompson as well. Chambers is just too small and 'lightweight' north of 200 lb to do anything to offset Bruno, and Thompson is fairly ordinary when all's said and done. I think Bruno would have a couple of ways to beat him, to be honest. He could outjab him or over-power him.

And 40 year old Thompson was a live fighter when he fought Wlad was he?

DAVE667 wrote:And 40 year old Thompson was a live fighter when he fought Wlad was he?

I haven't said he was.

Bruno was fantastic unless forced to fight at a higher pace than his own - then he'd gas. I'm not sure Haye throws enough to take advantage of that. I think Frank does have an easy beating of Chagaev though. He comes in and takes a few shots but doesnt negotitate the jab very well and Frank had a fair jab on his. Also Witherspoon was a wasted talent due to drugs and co - I think the late 80's and 90s produced some fantastic talent - probably the richest talent there has ever been in the HW division but most of the fighters were on drugs, uninterested, party animals etc etc. Even so they weren't no hopers - just a tier under the elite

ShahenshahG wrote:Bruno was fantastic unless forced to fight at a higher pace than his own - then he'd gas. I'm not sure Haye throws enough to take advantage of that. I think Frank does have an easy beating of Chagaev though. He comes in and takes a few shots but doesnt negotitate the jab very well and Frank had a fair jab on his. Also Witherspoon was a wasted talent due to drugs and co - I think the late 80's and 90s produced some fantastic talent - probably the richest talent there has ever been in the HW division but most of the fighters were on drugs, uninterested, party animals etc etc. Even so they weren't no hopers - just a tier under the elite

And Holmes reigned supreme. That's why I have him at 3 in the ATG stakes, pushing Louis closely for the 2 spot. Only reason why I have Louis at 2 is because he fought in the black and white era and because everyone else says so.

Haye would not have a chance against Bruno. Ridiculous to say otherwise. Haye couldnt even beat some of the rubbish heavyweights around at the moment. Bruno was a good fighter who had the misfortune of being around with a certain Mike Tyson and a certain Lennox Lewis. But if he had been around with the division as it is now he would be the world champion.

DAVE667 wrote:Wasn't Bruno beating both of them quite clearly until his chin let him down? Eeeh, do you know what, I think he was...

Big deal. As soon as Tim or James planted one on his chin Frank would go dooooooooohhhhhhhhh, wobble-wobble and cover up his ears and take the inevitable pasting that was coming his way until the ref took mercy on him. His survival instincts made Enzo Mack's seem like Muhammed Ali's.

I think a lot of Wlad's opponents are, whilst nevertheless being unspectcular not quite as bad as people make out. Most of the Eastern European heavies he dispatches of are very fit athletes something that would have troubled Bruno if he couldn't clear these guys out by the halfway point. Bruno used to gas pretty bad and was hellish lucky that Oliver McCall came into the fight in the mess he was in and still Bruno gassed his way to the title. Bruno was a robot with a decent dig, no chin, no survival insticts and poor stamina. It's completely unfair to mention Bruno and Wlad in the same sentence!

Gordy wrote:Haye would not have a chance against Bruno. Ridiculous to say otherwise. Haye couldnt even beat some of the rubbish heavyweights around at the moment. Bruno was a good fighter who had the misfortune of being around with a certain Mike Tyson and a certain Lennox Lewis. But if he had been around with the division as it is now he would be the world champion.

Outside of squeaking past McCall, who has Frank beaten that was live and ambitious?

Everyone can beat Wlad until Wlad lands the first jab. Suddenly ambition disappears.