could brook beat alexander...?

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Based on their recent showings? I do want Brook to do well but am still not fully convinced, though I'm nearly there...the only holes i see are a slightly padded record and a dodgy defense (I believe his that his conditioning/fitness will have improved since the Jones fight, he looked great at the weigh in)
Alexander-Brook will happen early next year I expect. How would you see it going?

There's still a huge question mark for me with Brook.

I can't rate him highly until he fights someone remotely ranked top 10.

Any sort of KO against saldivia means nothing so will wait to judge until he steps up.

Personally I don't think he will fight Alexander and will choose a more winnable fight against a more unknown opponant.

manos de piedra wrote:Because Pacquiao is better than Khan.

As you know it doesn't really work that way. Norton beat Ali, who beat Foreman who knocked out Norton in a round.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:Because Pacquiao is better than Khan.

As you know it doesn't really work that way. Norton beat Ali, who beat Foreman who knocked out Norton in a round.

Well quite often it does work that way, especially when you comparing fighters of different levels and abilty. Its quite easy use the "styles make fights" argument when it suits but I genuinely cant see how one could believe Khan/Brook is a pick em but Brook beats Pacquiao easily. There is barely a single aspect of Khans game I would rate as much better than Pacquiaos and when you take them as a complete package its no contest.

The Pac of 2 years ago wouldn't have a problem with Brook. It would be a pickem off the floor. But I believe Pac has deteriorated sufficiently to allow Brook to outpoint him in a close but clear win.

Khan offers a totally different style. He would outwork and out land Brook, but Brook has the equaliser. Its either a points win for Khan or a KO for Brook hence I call it a pickem.

Why has Pacquaio deteriorated sufficiently? You had him winning the last Bradley fight who is better than anything Khan or Brook has beat. He might have deteriorated from his absolute best but I cant see how being competitive if fights against top pound for pound fighters like JMM and Bradley are indicative of a fighter who has deteriorated to the point where Brook beats him easily. Pacquiao, even on recent evidence, is still one of the best fighters in the world. Khan is not and Brook hasnt fought at world level yet so is lagely unproven.

manos de piedra wrote:Why has Pacquaio deteriorated sufficiently? You had him winning the last Bradley fight who is better than anything Khan or Brook has beat. He might have deteriorated from his absolute best but I cant see how being competitive if fights against top pound for pound fighters like JMM and Bradley are indicative of a fighter who has deteriorated to the point where Brook beats him easily. Pacquiao, even on recent evidence, is still one of the best fighters in the world. Khan is not and Brook hasnt fought at world level yet so is lagely unproven.

WHy has manny deteriorated? Probably age. His legs are not as springy anymore. Yes I had him beating Bradley by 3 points/rounds. I also believe Brook is a better boxer than Bradley and would beat him tomorrow. It doesn't matter if Brook has not fought anyone in the similar class as Pac or his recent opponents. I believe he is ready to take on and beat Pac. His style of fighting will give Pac all manner of problems. Pac is easy to hit and Brook is very accurate. He is weak against a good jab and Brook has a good and accurate jab.

I find it preposterous that anyone would say Brook would have a chance against Pacquaio on the evidence we have.

From what I've seen Brook is a one paced pot shotter, can't see him beating Alexander frankly, maybes I'm selling Brook short, but I'm not overly impressed and haven't been for a while.

Cheers Rodders

i definetly would. in my eyes he has been beaten thoroughly by bradley and jmm, and couldnt do anything with mosley who himself is years past his best.

manny hasnt looked remotely decent since 2010 against margcheato

Thoroughly beaten by Bradley ? Did you watch that fight?

Talk about people jumping on the brook hype train, his best wins are against Matthew Hatton and a life and death struggle with an American journeyman, wake me up when Brook decides to fight anyone decent.

Cheers Rodders

If Brook had actually beaten someone world class I might be more able to see the argument. But I find it bizzare that Pacquiao gets labelled with "looking awful" or "not looking remotely decent" when his last two fights have been against top pound for pound fighters. Brook on the other hand couldnt get rid of Matty Hatton which must go down as far worse than Pacquiao not getting rid of the iron chined Mosley, and then scraped by Carson Jones who I think we can all agree is no JMM or Bradley.

If you were judging the outcome of a head to head fight, which to be fair is unlikey to ever happen I think, then I appreciate that whats on paper offers no gaurantee to the outcome. But it seems like Pacquiao is being judged against what he used to be and Brook on what he might be more than anything else.

Manos it's just utter nonsense talk, from someone who at the minute is flavour of the month.

Cheers Rodders

manos de piedra wrote:If Brook had actually beaten someone world class I might be more able to see the argument. But I find it bizzare that Pacquiao gets labelled with "looking awful" or "not looking remotely decent" when his last two fights have been against top pound for pound fighters. Brook on the other hand couldnt get rid of Matty Hatton which must go down as far worse than Pacquiao not getting rid of the iron chined Mosley, and then scraped by Carson Jones who I think we can all agree is no JMM or Bradley.

If you were judging the outcome of a head to head fight, which to be fair is unlikey to ever happen I think, then I appreciate that whats on paper offers no gaurantee to the outcome. But it seems like Pacquiao is being judged against what he used to be and Brook on what he might be more than anything else.

I have never described Manny as being or looking awful. I have said that he is one dimensional, although that dimension was damned good. The operative word being WAS. Plus Manny now KOing SSM is neither here nr there. That he looked pretty average says a lot. I said immediately after that fight that he lacked a Plan B. It could be excused that he went through the motions and did what he had to do by pitching a shut out. Having said that, I reckon Brook would have scored a shut out against SSM also. Ditto Khan and many other active welters. But the few times SSM stuck out a jab, Manny looked decidedly uncomfortable. When Tim stuck out a jab, Manny also looked perplexed.

I am well aware that Kel has not fought anyone world clas. Neither had so many contenders before they got a shot and won the belt. How many great boxers did Ali beat before he dethroned Liston? Not fo rone minute am I comparing Kel to Ali either, just the principal. Naz never fought at FW before he dethroned Robinson. The list is endless. Moreover how man contenders who are undefeated risk their status against a world class opponent prior to a world title fight?

Hamed was 4-1 favourite over Robinson it's a silly comparison, youre on about predicting a guy whose proven nothing and hasn't looked that good in doing it against a top P4P star, it's nonsense mate at the highest level IMO.

I honestly don't think Brook would win a round against any version of Manny on the evidence I've seen, have to fancy Alexander over him until he actually proves something and fights someone remotely noteworthy.

Cheers Rodders

Rodney wrote:Hamed was 4-1 favourite over Robinson it's a silly comparison, youre on about predicting a guy whose proven nothing and hasn't looked that good in doing it against a top P4P star, it's nonsense mate at the highest level IMO.

I honestly don't think Brook would win a round against any version of Manny on the evidence I've seen, have to fancy Alexander over him until he actually proves something and fights someone remotely noteworthy.

Cheers Rodders

And Ali against Liston? Who did Ali beat prior to Liston? He got decked by Cooper and AN Other.

Ali was a ultra talented gold medalist Az, deservedly started as a underdog against Liston and e rest is history.

You're picking the smallest minority as an example, we wouldn't have enough cyber memory to start listing contenders who got blew away against a champion.
Brook at this stage would probably be about a 10 /1 underdog against Manny. Never say never and all that but I find the prediction very strange considering Brook has done absolutely nothing.

Cheers Rodders

Rodney wrote:Ali was a ultra talented gold medalist Az, deservedly started as a underdog against Liston and e rest is history.

You're picking the smallest minority as an example, we wouldn't have enough cyber memory to start listing contenders who got blew away against a champion.
Brook at this stage would probably be about a 10 /1 underdog against Manny. Never say never and all that but I find the prediction very strange considering Brook has done absolutely nothing.

Cheers Rodders

He was an unproven fighter and huge underdog. Brook had fought better opposition in comparison.

Manny is on reputation now. Great fighter, but that was in the past. As every day goes by, he's getting progressively slower. I reckon he has 2 fights in him. Marquez and then Floyd. He will sneak past JMM and get schooled by Floyd before retiring. A competitive fight with Floyd passed away 2 years ago.

I disagree in the respect Manny is on reputation now, I don't think any other WW would beat Bradley in such decisive manner bar Mayweather, Brook sneaked past Carson imagine Pacquaio putting that pressure on him?

Cheers Rodders

Rodney wrote:I disagree in the respect Manny is on reputation now, I don't think any other WW would beat Bradley in such decisive manner bar Mayweather, Brook sneaked past Carson imagine Pacquaio putting that pressure on him?

Cheers Rodders

Bradley sneaked past Witter! I didn't see much in him to worry for Brook if they ever met. Once again, bear in mind I am not on a Brook hype train. I just think he is the real deal and damn good.

when did manny struggle with mosley?? he nearly scored a shut out on all cards and whether shot or not he still has a cast iron chin and has never been stopped, even against a hard hitting huge lmw up and comer like alvarez couldnt stop him. he easily beat bradley for anybody who watched fight and got beat of jmm, all a country mile above the level brook has been fighting.

your entitled to your opinion that you think brook wins, but your doing it on absoultely no evidence

compelling and rich wrote:when did manny struggle with mosley?? he nearly scored a shut out on all cards and whether shot or not he still has a cast iron chin and has never been stopped, even against a hard hitting huge lmw up and comer like alvarez couldnt stop him. he easily beat bradley for anybody who watched fight and got beat of jmm, all a country mile above the level brook has been fighting.

your entitled to your opinion that you think brook wins, but your doing it on absoultely no evidence

I didn't say he struggled. I said he looked average and mentioned he scored a shut out. I also qualified it by saying that he went through the motions.

eddyfightfan wrote:i definetly would. in my eyes he has been beaten thoroughly by bradley and jmm, and couldnt do anything with mosley who himself is years past his best.

manny hasnt looked remotely decent since 2010 against margcheato

az, the mosley bit wasnt aimed at you, but more this ^

I think we need to calm down, especially you Rodders, you seem to be awfully worked up - did Brook sleep with your missus or something? Jesus wept.

Pacquiao didn't beat Bradley decisively as you claim. I had Pacquiao winning, but he didn't put it beyond all doubt, I thought it was a robbery but after watching the fight twice more with and without commentary I had it 115 - 113 Pacquiao. 2/3 years ago against Cotto (who I rate far higher than Bradley and I'm sure most people here would too) he obliterated him. Are you telling me that the Pacquaio who we saw that night wouldn't have gone through Bradley?

He's lost power, that much was evident as he couldn't put Mosely away.

He's lost speed because he was getting beaten to the punch by Marquez moreso than ever before.

He's lost his guile because he wasn't able to outwork Bradley to a very clear decision.

I'm perfectly entitled to think that a very talented (and lets not pretend he's not - you sound like Gordy talking about "hype") welterweight in Kell Brook who is now ranked #1 by the IBF, has a very good chance of beating Devon Alexander (I have it a clear UD or late stoppage) and the former #1 contender for Pacquiao's very own (at the time) WBO belt who we've talked about potentially facing Floyd in the future because of the similarity in the way they carry themselves beating Manny Pacquiao, a man who has lost the aura surrounding him, a man who has clearly lost the edge he once had. I'd actually have Brook beating Bradley too - does that make me "insane"?

Seriously, you should have a check of the tone that you're using, because I respect you as a poster Rodders, but to be honest, that could change if I'm told I'm insane for thinking something very logical.

have to disagree with you on most of your middle points there jab

mosley has never been stopped, and has been in with alot more natural bigger men than manny who couldnt stop him. the likes of alvarez who's alot bigger than manny couldnt stop him a year later

manny was struggling to hit jmm in thier first and second (apart from early rounds) aswell and he had plenty of speed back then, jmm was just a stylistic nightmare for manny.

ive seen the bradley fight a couple of times and imo its a robbery, the early rounds are tight and could go either way but then the mid rounds manny wins all of them pretty clearly, later bradley makes a come back but its far to late as mannys got enough rounds in the bank. it wasnt a very wide desicion but for me there was only one clear winner, there was no chance bradley won enough rounds to win that fight

compelling and rich wrote:mosley has never been stopped, and has been in with alot more natural bigger men than manny who couldnt stop him. the likes of alvarez who's alot bigger than manny couldnt stop him a year later

Neither had Cotto - discounting the fact margarito had bricks in his gloves - yet Pacquiao still blasted through him, although to be fair the fact Marg probably did have plastered hands means that stopping Cotto is all the more impressive

compelling and rich wrote:manny was struggling to hit jmm in thier first and second (apart from early rounds) aswell and he had plenty of speed back then, jmm was just a stylistic nightmare for manny.

I know Manny had speed, however in their latest fight, most of the speed he used in the first 2 was gone - meant the fight was much more clearly a Marquez victory.

compelling and rich wrote:ive seen the bradley fight a couple of times and imo its a robbery, the early rounds are tight and could go either way but then the mid rounds manny wins all of them pretty clearly, later bradley makes a come back but its far to late as mannys got enough rounds in the bank. it wasnt a very wide desicion but for me there was only one clear winner, there was no chance bradley won enough rounds to win that fight

Watching it with commentary shows that HBO were creaming themselves every time Manny threw a punch, even if it didn't land they were saying it did. Bradley did smart work and clawed it back. I think Manny won, as I said, but Bradley did enough to sneak a controversial decision. I wouldn't call it a robbery, not anymore.

forgot to mention i watched the fight the next day in work with no commentary so that had no effect on my opinions, i didnt know the result when i did either. a close victory yes but nobody can convince me otherwise that bradley won enough rounds in that fight to win, i think if your being kind you can give him 1,2,10,11,12 thats it. like i say close but only one winner

the two judges who gave it to bradley both gave him rounds 5,7 and 8 when manny was dominating the fight

taken of wiki, of how many of the "experts" scored the fight

Main event unofficial score cardsSource:[11]

Writer Agency Scorecard Winner
1 Barry Tompkins Showtime 119-110 Pacquiao
2 Harold Lederman HBO 119-109 Pacquiao
3 Ray Markarian The Sweet Science 119-109 Pacquiao
4 Michael Marley Examiner 119-109 Pacquiao
5 Dan Rafael ESPN 119-109 Pacquiao
6 Vittorio Tafur San Francisco Chronicle 119-109 Pacquiao
7 Michael Woods The Sweet Science 119-109 Pacquiao
8 Ramon Aranda 3 More Rounds 118-110 Pacquiao
9 Mario Cabrera Boxing Republic 118-110 Pacquiao
10 Nigel Collins ESPN 118-110 Pacquiao
11 Mike Coppinger Ring Magazine 118-110 Pacquiao
12 Ace Freeman Fight Fan 118-110 Pacquiao
13 Rich Marotta KFI Los Angeles 118-110 Pacquiao
14 Kelsey McCarson The Sweet Science 118-110 Pacquiao
15 Gabriel Montoya MaxBoxing 118-110 Pacquiao
16 Pete O’Brien USA Today 118-110 Pacquiao
17 Eric Raskin Grantland 118-110 Pacquiao
18 Michael Rosenthal Ring Magazine 118-110 Pacquiao
19 Colin Seymour Examiner 118-110 Pacquiao
20 Ryan Songalia Ring Magazine 118-110 Pacquiao
21 Gary Andrew Poole TIME 118-110 Pacquiao
22 Ryan Burton Boxing Scene 117-111 Pacquiao
23 Scott Christ Bad Left Hook 117-111 Pacquiao
24 Tim Dahlberg Associated Press 117-111 Pacquiao
25 Gareth Davies London Daily Telegraph 117-111 Pacquiao
26 Doug Fischer Ring Magazine 117-111 Pacquiao
27 David Greisman Boxing Scene 117-111 Pacquiao
28 Jorge Hernandez The Low Blow 117-111 Pacquiao
29 Kevin Iole Yahoo! Sports 117-111 Pacquiao
30 Robert Littal Black Sports Online 117-111 Pacquiao
31 Steve Kim Max Boxing 117-111 Pacquiao
32 Ryan Maquiñana Comcast SportsNet Bay Area 117-111 Pacquiao
33 David Mayo MLive 117-111 Pacquiao
34 Kieran Mulvaney HBO 117-111 Pacquiao
35 Lance Pugmire Los Angeles Times 117-111 Pacquiao
36 Chris Robinson Boxing Scene 117-111 Pacquiao
37 Nick Xouris Fight Hype 118-111 Pacquiao
38 Champ Ross Da Truth Boxing 117-111 Pacquiao
39 Luis Sandoval Boxing Scene 117-111 Pacquiao
40 Jonathan Sakti Comcast SportsNet Bay Area 117-111 Pacquiao
41 Tim Starks Queensberry Rules 117-111 Pacquiao
42 Richie Tomassini Comcast SportsNet Bay Area 117-111 Pacquiao
43 Darren Velasco 8 Count News 117-111 Pacquiao
44 Rick Reeno Boxing Scene 116-112 Pacquiao
45 George Willis New York Post 116-112 Pacquiao
46 Steve Zemach Queensberry Rules 116-112 Pacquiao
47 Salmaan Ahmed[not in citation given] Fight Today UK 116-112 Pacquiao
48 Armando Alvarez Telemundo 115-113 Pacquiao
49 Jake Donovan Boxing Scene 115-113 Pacquiao
50 Lem Satterfield Ring Magazine 115-113 Pacquiao
51 J.C. Casarez Boxeo Mundial 115-113 Pacquiao
52 Thomas Hauser HBO 115-114 Bradley
53 Bart Barry HBO 116-115 Bradley
54 Brian Kenny Top Rank 116-112 Bradley
55 Springs Toledo[12] The Sweet Science 117-112 Pacquiao
56 Michael Galvin[not in citation given] RAF 116-112 Pacquiao
57 Aleksander Nazarov[not in citation given] Boxing Scene 118-110 Pacquiao
58 Cliff Rold Boxing Scene 117-111 Pacquiao

The only ones I'd take seriously would be the ones around 115 - 113, 119 - 109 is utterly disgraceful scoring.

The American doesn't look too keen on the fight anyway:

http://www.boxingscene.com/devon-alexander-never-seen-brook-fight-who-he--58518

Personally I think this one is a 50/50. But, Brook is high risk, low reward for Alexander right now. He'll be looking for a bigger name I think.

Let the ducking begin, a boxer should know everyone that he could be fighting in his weight category and to me it's an excuse to ignore brook. Brook draws bigger crowds than this guy who can't even sell out in his back yard. Hearn won't let him wriggle his way out of a brook mandatory

Boxtthis wrote:The American doesn't look too keen on the fight anyway:

http://www.boxingscene.com/devon-alexander-never-seen-brook-fight-who-he--58518

Personally I think this one is a 50/50. But, Brook is high risk, low reward for Alexander right now. He'll be looking for a bigger name I think.

Someone should tell Alexander that Brook is massive in Yorkshire.

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:Let the ducking begin, a boxer should know everyone that he could be fighting in his weight category and to me it's an excuse to ignore brook. Brook draws bigger crowds than this guy who can't even sell out in his back yard. Hearn won't let him wriggle his way out of a brook mandatory

Of course he knows him. He's just putting Brook down.

Rodney, Alma props, I thought I was going insane when I read some of the 'Brook Hype Train' comments in here.

It's nothing short of insane, Brook has been a pro for 8 years, he hasn't fought a top 50 fighter yet and your talking about him beating Pacman. Insane is an understatement.

I love the excuses coming out of the Brook camp after his dreadful performance against Jones, 'diet, training, under estimating' standard default excuses that the hordes are buying into.

Below par Pac could turn up and systematically break down 'World Class' Brook.

Next stop for the Brook Hype Train - Reality.

"Hype train"

You realise this is a guy who is #1 ranked for the IBF title and at one point was #1 ranked WBO right?

Am I imagining this? No - its fact. He has fought a decent level of opposition, he hasn't stepped up to World class yet, but look - if Hector Salvida wasn't top 50, why was he in an IBF Title Eliminator? Was Carson Jones ranked outside of the top 50? Former European champion Matthew Hatton - the guy who fought for the IBO and WBC titles? What about him? Pretty sure he gave Alvarez (a current WBC champion) a good fight? Outside of the top 50? Lovemore N'Dou? That no-mark who's never been in a top 50? He's pretty decent!

Think you need a dose of reality mate. Jog right on.

'Jog on'? Are we really resorting to adolescent comments like that now? 'Sigh, shakes head'.

I think you'll find the kids say "smh" not "shakes head"

You've just basically attempted to put me down by saying I'm out of touch with reality, that's tantamount to calling me an idiot.

Also, the term you're looking for to "admonish" me is "pre-pubescent" I believe.

Brooks opposition has been poor for a guy who is being touted by people to beat the likes of Bradley and Pacquaio. Hes been pro for a long time now and hasnt really fought a world class fighter. The Alexander fight should be a real test for him.

Alexander will win.

azania wrote:

Boxtthis wrote:The American doesn't look too keen on the fight anyway:

http://www.boxingscene.com/devon-alexander-never-seen-brook-fight-who-he--58518

Personally I think this one is a 50/50. But, Brook is high risk, low reward for Alexander right now. He'll be looking for a bigger name I think.

Someone should tell Alexander that Brook is massive in Yorkshire.

Well, some parts of South Yorkshire anyway.....

Diggers wrote:

azania wrote:

Boxtthis wrote:The American doesn't look too keen on the fight anyway:

http://www.boxingscene.com/devon-alexander-never-seen-brook-fight-who-he--58518

Personally I think this one is a 50/50. But, Brook is high risk, low reward for Alexander right now. He'll be looking for a bigger name I think.

Someone should tell Alexander that Brook is massive in Yorkshire.

Well, some parts of South Yorkshire anyway.....

And some parts of Sheffield. His mum knows him!