Heineken Cup Overall records - English,Scots,Irish and Welsh clubs.

First topic message reminder :

Welsh sides



Scarlets

107 games

56 wins 1 draw 50 losses – 52% win ratio


Cardiff

104 games

53 wins, 4 draws, 47 losses -51% win ratio



Ospreys

59 games

29 wins, 3 draws, 27 losses – 49% win ratio


Dragons

42 games

9 wins, 33 losses -21% win ratio



Scottish sides


Edinburgh

93 games

34 wins, 3 draws, 56 losses – 36% win ratio


Glasgow

81 games

25 wins, 2 draws, 54 losses – 31% win ratio




Irish sides


Munster

124 games

87 wins, 1 draw, 36 losses – 70% win ratio



Leinster

117 games

79 wins,3 draws,35 losses – 67.5% win ratio


Ulster

105 games

49 wins, 3 draws, 53 losses -46% win ratio

Connacht

8 games

2 wins, 6 losses – 25% win ratio


English sides

Leicester

112 games

74 wins, 4 draws, 34 losses – 66% win ratio





Wasps

78 games

51 wins, 1 draw, 26 losses – 65% ratio


Saracens

41 games

25 wins, 16 losses – 61% win ratio


Saints

73 games

44 wins, 29 losses – 60% win ratio


Bath

72 games

43 wins, 1 draw, 28 losses -60% win ratio


Gloucester

58 games

35 wins, 1 draw, 22 losses – 60% win ratio


Sale

39 games

18 wins, 21 losses – 46%


London Irish

38 games

16 wins,1 draw,21 losses -42% win ratio



Harlequins

57 games

21 wins, 3 draws, 33 losses – 37% win ratio



Exeter

2 games

0 wins,2 losses – 0% win ratio



London Welsh and Worcester – N/A




Thoughts?

Connacht?? Never heard of them.

Interesting read thanks OP.

Kingshu wrote:Maestegmafia, I put in an earlier post a roughly fairer way to compare Leagues than winning %

It only uses last 4 years European record,

For leagues add up ERC clubs ranking points for each team (last 4 years european performance) , and divide by number of teams in the leauge, this would give a rough co-efficient.

Pro 12 =12.91
French league = 9.57
English League = 8.67

This would be a better indicator of league strenght, based on European competation, than winning %.
Basically average ERC points per league.

Its not perfect, but is the best rough indicator anyone has come up with so far.

That's wrong because the ERC clubs rankings are massively messed up. You know this, I know this. I know you want to twist the results to make the Pro12 look respectable but win % is far more accurate.

Win % shows consistency.

Maestegmafia that's a pretty good list.

beshocked wrote:Welsh sides



Scarlets

107 games

56 wins 1 draw 50 losses – 52% win ratio


Cardiff

104 games

53 wins, 4 draws, 47 losses -51% win ratio



Ospreys

59 games

29 wins, 3 draws, 27 losses – 49% win ratio


Dragons

42 games

9 wins, 33 losses -21% win ratio



Scottish sides


Edinburgh

93 games

34 wins, 3 draws, 56 losses – 36% win ratio


Glasgow

81 games

25 wins, 2 draws, 54 losses – 31% win ratio




Irish sides


Munster

124 games

87 wins, 1 draw, 36 losses – 70% win ratio



Leinster

117 games

79 wins,3 draws,35 losses – 67.5% win ratio


Ulster

105 games

49 wins, 3 draws, 53 losses -46% win ratio

Connacht

8 games

2 wins, 6 losses – 25% win ratio


English sides

Leicester

112 games

74 wins, 4 draws, 34 losses – 66% win ratio





Wasps

78 games

51 wins, 1 draw, 26 losses – 65% ratio


Saracens

41 games

25 wins, 16 losses – 61% win ratio


Saints

73 games

44 wins, 29 losses – 60% win ratio


Bath

72 games

43 wins, 1 draw, 28 losses -60% win ratio


Gloucester

58 games

35 wins, 1 draw, 22 losses – 60% win ratio


Sale

39 games

18 wins, 21 losses – 46%


London Irish

38 games

16 wins,1 draw,21 losses -42% win ratio



Harlequins

57 games

21 wins, 3 draws, 33 losses – 37% win ratio



Exeter

2 games

0 wins,2 losses – 0% win ratio



London Welsh and Worcester – N/A




Thoughts?

Why no French or Italian stats here?

If the AP sides are so dominant then why do they whinge about the P12 resting players, and want to change the HEC format?

beshocked wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Maestegmafia, I put in an earlier post a roughly fairer way to compare Leagues than winning %

It only uses last 4 years European record,

For leagues add up ERC clubs ranking points for each team (last 4 years european performance) , and divide by number of teams in the leauge, this would give a rough co-efficient.

Pro 12 =12.91
French league = 9.57
English League = 8.67

This would be a better indicator of league strenght, based on European competation, than winning %.
Basically average ERC points per league.

Its not perfect, but is the best rough indicator anyone has come up with so far.

That's wrong because the ERC clubs rankings are massively messed up. You know this, I know this. I know you want to twist the results to make the Pro12 look respectable but win % is far more accurate.

Win % shows consistency.

Maestegmafia that's a pretty good list.

Winning percentage since 1995 does not reflect current strength, look at Bristol was it, 50% win ratio. Average ERC ranking points per league does give information on last 4 years results, so more current.

I did also put in using the current ranking on Euro rugby that uses only last 30 games to get a better model for current league ranking.

Euro ranking take into account Strength of the domestic league (Account is taken of the differences in playing standards of the various domestic leagues by applying coefficients for each country. These are based on the performance of each country's clubs in the Heineken Cup (and to a much lesser extent, the European Challenge Cup) over the previous three seasons. The approach is similar to that used by UEFA to calculate their football rankings for each country.
I would like them to publish this as it would solve some arguments.

It's not clear over what period these percentages relate to.

Where are the Welsh clubs that played in the early years of the comp?

Have the Dragons really played 42 games in the Heineken Cup?

Where are the Scottish teams that played in the early years of the comp?

Why are the French and Italian teams excluded?

What's the point you're trying to make by comparing English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish teams?

Is it that Irish teams have performed better overall than English ones? Or vice versa?

That English teams have performed better than Scottish or Welsh ones?

Of those teams that have made it to knockout stages, how many home teams have won their matches? Which teams have had the best away performances?





Answers on a postcard.

the great aukster there are no Italian or French stats because this thread is about English,Scottish,Irish and Welsh Heineken Cup records. If you want to list the Italians and French then go ahead.

I moan about some Pro12 sides who aren't good enough and distorted ERC rankings. I know I should actually be grateful instead.

Distorted ERC rankings have made sure we have had easier pools than we should.

Pot Hale wrote:It's not clear over what period these percentages relate to.

Where are the Welsh clubs that played in the early years of the comp?

Have the Dragons really played 42 games in the Heineken Cup?

Where are the Scottish teams that played in the early years of the comp?

Why are the French and Italian teams excluded?

What's the point you're trying to make by comparing English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish teams?

Is it that Irish teams have performed better overall than English ones? Or vice versa?

That English teams have performed better than Scottish or Welsh ones?

Of those teams that have made it to knockout stages, how many home teams have won their matches? Which teams have had the best away performances?





Answers on a postcard.

How big are postcards down your way, you need a sheet of A3 for all those questions

ScarletSpiderman wrote:


How big are postcards down your way, you need a sheet of A3 for all those questions

They can be small. With pithy stats like this one:

Leinster 25-11 vs English sides played in the Heineken Cup to date.

Ulster 13-17 vs English sides played in the Heineken Cup.

Munster 25-12 vs English sides played in the Heineken Cup.

Connacht 1-4 vs English sides played in the Heineken Cup.

The trends and win ratios between Irish and French sides would be more interesting.

How about this one - 2012-13 after 2 HC rounds

AP vs Pro12

5 wins to 1 win.

3 try bonuses for the AP sides.

Pot Hale you haven't told us anything we don't know. Leinster and Munster are historically two of the best sides in Europe. Of course they have good records.

Pot Hale wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:


How big are postcards down your way, you need a sheet of A3 for all those questions

They can be small. With pithy stats like this one:

Leinster 25-11 vs English sides played in the Heineken Cup to date.

Ulster 13-17 vs English sides played in the Heineken Cup.

Munster 25-12 vs English sides played in the Heineken Cup.

Connacht 1-4 vs English sides played in the Heineken Cup.

The trends and win ratios between Irish and French sides would be more interesting.

So

Irish teams 64 V English teams 44

Does that good enough for a BP win?

Leinster and Munster have good records. What's new? Why do Pro12 and fans of other Irish regions like to piggybacking their success against English clubs?

beshocked wrote:Leinster and Munster have good records. What's new? Why do Pro12 and fans of other Irish regions like to piggyback on their glory?

Ye Ulster, stop piggybacking off our success!

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

beshocked wrote:Leinster and Munster have good records. What's new? Why do Pro12 and fans of other Irish regions like to piggyback on their glory?

Ye Ulster, stop piggybacking off our success!

Ok fine I'll acknowledge Ulster won the HC years ago and got to a HC final last season but they weren't in the same class as Leinster. Plus I was referring more to the record vs English sides than anything else.

beshocked wrote:Leinster and Munster have good records. What's new? Why do Pro12 and fans of other Irish regions like to piggyback on their glory?

Because we can. You are only jealous because you can't.

I don't think too many people are trying to pickyback on it, the problem is that when people are talking about revamping our league to suit their leagues interest (even though Munster Leinster and Ulster are always goning to be int he top six) etc it does tend to be us (Rabo nations, as we seem to get lumped with) and the English and the French, and as such when we start quoting results of Rabo-Nations we must include the Irish as they are part of it.

beshocked wrote:the great aukster there are no Italian or French stats because this thread is about English,Scottish,Irish and Welsh Heineken Cup records. If you want to list the Italians and French then go ahead.

I moan about some Pro12 sides who aren't good enough and distorted ERC rankings. I know I should actually be grateful instead.

Distorted ERC rankings have made sure we have had easier pools than we should.

Are you sure about your stats for Dragons in the Heineken Cup?

What about stats for Newcastle or Bristol or Leeds Tykes?

beshocked wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

beshocked wrote:Leinster and Munster have good records. What's new? Why do Pro12 and fans of other Irish regions like to piggyback on their glory?

Ye Ulster, stop piggybacking off our success!

Ok fine I'll acknowledge Ulster won the HC years ago and got to a HC final last season but they weren't in the same class as Leinster. Plus I was referring more to the record vs English sides than anything else.

I totally agree. I remember that awful trimming the mighty Leicester gave us at Ravenhill last season. 41-7 I think it was. Oh no, thats right, Ulster hammered Leicester who failed to get out of the group. So if Ulster aren't in Leinster's class, and Leicester aren't in Ulster's then how bad are they?

beshocked wrote:How about this one - 2012-13 after 2 HC rounds

AP vs Pro12

5 wins to 1 win.

3 try bonuses for the AP sides.

Pot Hale you haven't told us anything we don't know. Leinster and Munster are historically two of the best sides in Europe. Of course they have good records.

You might want to look in the mirror on the "haven't told us anything we don't know". Who's we anyway?

Leinster have been successful in the last five years. Historically - I'd put other teams ahead of them - Toulouse, Leicester, Wasps.

What's the point you're making anyway?

is it about performance of English teams vs other countries teams? Or what?

The Dragons have only played in 6 Heineken cups. 6 matches x 6 years = 36 appearances, according to Wikipedia.

Therefore our win ratio is better.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

beshocked wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

beshocked wrote:Leinster and Munster have good records. What's new? Why do Pro12 and fans of other Irish regions like to piggyback on their glory?

Ye Ulster, stop piggybacking off our success!

Ok fine I'll acknowledge Ulster won the HC years ago and got to a HC final last season but they weren't in the same class as Leinster. Plus I was referring more to the record vs English sides than anything else.

I totally agree. I remember that awful trimming the mighty Leicester gave us at Ravenhill last season. 41-7 I think it was. Oh no, thats right, Ulster hammered Leicester who failed to get out of the group. So if Ulster aren't in Leinster's class, and Leicester aren't in Ulster's then how bad are they?

No you misunderstand me. In the HC final Ulster weren't in the same class as Leinster. That's one match. When you hammered Leicester on that day Leicester weren't in the same class.

Just because side A hammered side B doesn't mean side A is better than side C

Pot Hale wrote:

Leinster have been successful in the last five years. Historically - I'd put other teams ahead of them - Toulouse, Leicester, Wasps.

Yep, you could put other teams ahead of them historically.
Leicester were winning when certainly there was less professional threat from many of the other sides in it. Professionalism was only a few years old and certainly top English clubs had a head start.
Toulouse's first of their 4 wins didn't even have the threat of English sides as they didn't show up that year.
Wasps? - Munster's historical record outstrips Wasps.

Nope, I think given the level of professionalism that exists today, given the kinds of players that nations and leagues are producing, given the kinds of players that clubs and Provinces can buy in...I'd say todays HEC is a much tougher place to be picking up records than in the past. Three titles in four years in this 21st century game is pretty neat by any standards.

SecretFly wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Leinster have been successful in the last five years. Historically - I'd put other teams ahead of them - Toulouse, Leicester, Wasps.

Yep, you could put other teams ahead of them historically.
Leicester were winning when certainly there was less professional threat from many of the other sides in it. Professionalism was only a few years old and certainly top English clubs had a head start.
Toulouse's first of their 4 wins didn't even have the threat of English sides as they didn't show up that year.
Wasps? - Munster's historical record outstrips Wasps.

Nope, I think given the level of professionalism that exists today, given the kinds of players that nations and leagues are producing, given the kinds of players that clubs and Provinces can buy in...I'd say todays HEC is a much tougher place to be picking up records than in the past. Three titles in four years in this 21st century game is pretty neat by any standards.

Eh Fly - I was responding to the comment "Leinster and Munster are historically two of the best sides in Europe. Of course they have good records." I'd agree that Munster are. Leinster have only been one of/the best side more recently.

However, I'm still none the wiser about what point Beshocked is trying to make by posting selective (and some inaccurate) stats about the Heineken Cup.

Beshocked - care to shed any light on this?

In the last 10 years (roughly since the Celtic League got up and running), surely the best comparator between leagues is the Pool results in the HEC?

Every pool has at least one team from each league and having a weak team propping up the table has no affect on the winner of the group.
In that time:
AP teams have won 16 pools - 8 in the first five years (02/03 to 06/07) and 8 in the last five years.
Pro12 teams have won 20 pools - split 9 + 11.
Top14 teams have won 24 pools - split 13 + 11.

I like that one Aukster!

I say Aukster's comparator goes into the time capsule as the definitive version.

You're joking of course.

I suppose I can see your point - you can bring up stats that favour your POV.

I wonder how many of those pool winners were Leinster and Munster.

Heavy reliance on those two sides.

beshocked wrote:You're joking of course.

I suppose I can see your point - you can bring up stats that favour your POV.

I wonder how many of those pool winners were Leinster and Munster.

Heavy reliance on those two sides.

As the AP heavily relies on its top teams in these stats.

Below the top four teams in England is a mediocre bunch, they win some lose some, same as in any league. Though it is the sway in good or bad in those guys that make the difference when comparing leagues. The top four in the English Premiership will always be good teams.

Maestegmafia not if you look at funkingfull back's stats.

I suppose it's which stats you like the look of the most to prove a point.

Pot Hale wrote:
They can be small. With pithy stats like this one:

Leinster 25-11 vs English sides played in the Heineken Cup to date.

16/10/1996 18:45 Pool Leinster 10 27 Leicester Tigers Lansdowne Road
27/09/1997 15:00 Pool Leicester Tigers 47 22 Leinster Welford Road
15/01/2000 15:00 Pool Leicester Tigers 32 10 Leinster Welford Road
27/01/2002 15:00 QF Leicester Tigers 29 18 Leinster Welford Road
09/01/2004 19:45 Pool Leinster 22 23 Sale Sharks Lansdowne Road
02/04/2005 17:15 QF Leinster 13 29 Leicester Tigers Lansdowne Road
22/10/2005 17:15 Pool Leinster 19 22 Bath RDS
19/01/2007 19:30 Pool Gloucester 19 13 Leinster Kingsholm
31/03/2007 17:45 QF London Wasps 35 13 Leinster Adams Park
19/01/2008 15:30 P6 Leicester Tigers 25 9 Leinster Welford Road
17/01/2009 17:35 Pool London Wasps 19 12 Leinster Twickenham Stadium
09/10/2009 20:00 Pool Leinster 9 12 London Irish RDS

Here are the 12 games that Leinster have lost to English opposition in the HC. Not sure which one is being reported as a win on the erc site. Their stats can be a little off.

Note that half of them were to Leicester and a third overall were in Welford road.

Also while we are at it. The Ulster game in Twickenham was the first game we have won in Twickenham. We have never beaten an English team there. Though we have in Wembly.

That game was also the first time a Non English team have won a HC Final in Twickers.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
They can be small. With pithy stats like this one:

Leinster 25-11 vs English sides played in the Heineken Cup to date.

16/10/1996 18:45 Pool Leinster 10 27 Leicester Tigers Lansdowne Road
27/09/1997 15:00 Pool Leicester Tigers 47 22 Leinster Welford Road
15/01/2000 15:00 Pool Leicester Tigers 32 10 Leinster Welford Road
27/01/2002 15:00 QF Leicester Tigers 29 18 Leinster Welford Road
09/01/2004 19:45 Pool Leinster 22 23 Sale Sharks Lansdowne Road
02/04/2005 17:15 QF Leinster 13 29 Leicester Tigers Lansdowne Road
22/10/2005 17:15 Pool Leinster 19 22 Bath RDS
19/01/2007 19:30 Pool Gloucester 19 13 Leinster Kingsholm
31/03/2007 17:45 QF London Wasps 35 13 Leinster Adams Park
19/01/2008 15:30 P6 Leicester Tigers 25 9 Leinster Welford Road
17/01/2009 17:35 Pool London Wasps 19 12 Leinster Twickenham Stadium
09/10/2009 20:00 Pool Leinster 9 12 London Irish RDS

Here are the 12 games that Leinster have lost to English opposition in the HC. Not sure which one is being reported as a win on the erc site. Their stats can be a little off.

Note that half of them were to Leicester and a third overall were in Welford road.

Eh maybe check your 15 Jan 2000 match result there........ even Leicester recognise it - http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/2256.php

Are these detailed stats going anywhere as regards an overall point to be made?

SecretFly wrote:Are these detailed stats going anywhere as regards an overall point to be made?

Yes. Straight to Beshocked's front door where the 606 hacks are eagerly waiting.

Word is he'll be making a public statement shortly..... something along the lines of : "I suppose it's which stats you like the look of the most to prove a point. And the point I was proving was....... [details to be provided]"

beshocked wrote:I wonder how many of those pool winners were Leinster and Munster.

Heavy reliance on those two sides.

Team Total
Bath 2
Falcons 1
Glaws 1
LI 1
Quins 1
Saints 2
Saracens 2
Tigers 4
Wasps 2
AP = 16
Blues 2
Edinburgh 1
Leinster 7
Munster 7
Scarlets 3
Pro12 = 20
ASM 2
BO 6
Perpignan 3
SF 4
Toulouse 8
Toulon 1
Top14 = 24


Generally the top sides in the T14 and the Pro12 consistently win their pools, with Toulouse, Biarritz, Munster and Leinster standing out.
It's interesting how sporadic the AP sides winning pools are with Leicester being the best but still someway behind the top teams in the other leagues.

the great aukster very interesting stats

don't forget the proportion of HC matches played.

2 pool wins for Saracens in 42 matches is better than 2 pool wins for Wasps in 78 matches

Scarlets have 3 pool wins in 107 games

Tiger's ratio is not very good compared to their overall HC ratio and 2 HCs.

Compare their 4 pool topping to Leinster,Munster,Toulouse and it's not good.

0 pool wins for Ulster? Wow - that surprises me.

The Pro12 clubs should have more pool wins because they have overall played more games in the HC.

Pot Hale wrote:
Eh maybe check your 15 Jan 2000 match result there........ even Leicester recognise it - http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/2256.php

Excellent work Pot. Good man thanks.

They have recently tidied up their stats on ERC. Because a few months ago they had us with a much better record v English teams. There was a post or two about it on here at the time.

EDIT: Won 18 drew 1 lost 6 was what it said in August.

[quote="beshocked"]the great aukster very interesting stats

don't forget the proportion of HC matches played.

2 pool wins for Saracens in 42 matches is better than 2 pool wins for Wasps in 78 matches

Scarlets have 3 pool wins in 107 games

Tiger's ratio is not very good compared to their overall HC ratio and 2 HCs.

Compare their 4 pool topping to Leinster,Munster,Toulouse and it's not good.

0 pool wins for Ulster? Wow - that surprises me.

The Pro12 clubs should have more pool wins because they have overall played more games in the HC.[/quote]

Or you could look at it like stated earlier, each group has at least One English One Pro 12 and One French side in it , and we're taking on the crap Italians record from before they joined the pro 12.

You could twist the stats another way.

9 English sides have topped a HC pool.

5 Pro12 sides have topped a HC pool.

6 Top 14 sides have topped a HC pool.

True Kingshu but the Italian sides have had many games in the HC. An opportunity to grow with the extra revenue.

Pot Hale you want an answer fine - I suppose you can summarise it as - without Leinster and Munster the Pro12 sides wouldn't have much to shout about. 2 sides propping up the Pro12.

I suppose you could retort Saints,Bath,Wasps and Leicester are propping up the AP but then you look at the win percentages even in the last 5 years.

Then again we could stop this silly argument and say there's the good, the bad and the ugly in all 3 leagues.

beshocked wrote:

Then again we could stop this silly argument and say there's the good, the bad and the ugly in all 3 leagues.

Now there's a fresh idea, and a good one. Pity it took constant and public criticisms of one league by another to achieve such a conclusion though. We here in Pro12 land always thought of it so.

Percentages mean nowt. Absolutely nowt.

This is what really matters:

English Premiership
Wins 6. Leicester Tigers (2), London Wasps (2), Bath, Northampton Saints
RU 4. Leicester Tigers (3), Northampton Saints

Irish teams
Wins 6. Leinster (3), Munster (2), Ulster
RU 3. Munster (2), Ulster

Top 14
Wins 5. Toulouse (4), Brive
RU 9. Biarritz (2), Stade Français (2), Toulouse (2), Brive, Colomiers, Perpignan


Welsh Premier Division
Wins 0.
RU 1. Cardiff RFC

Mustard. Cut. Can. You.

beshocked wrote:You could twist the stats another way:

9 English sides have topped a HC pool.
5 Pro12 sides have topped a HC pool.
6 Top 14 sides have topped a HC pool.

Pot Hale you want an answer fine - I suppose you can summarise it as - without Leinster and Munster the Pro12 sides wouldn't have much to shout about. 2 sides propping up the Pro12. I suppose you could retort Saints,Bath,Wasps and Leicester are propping up the AP but then you look at the win percentages even in the last 5 years.

Except, Beshocked, the actual statistics for the duration of the comp are:

11 French sides have topped their pool - 40 pool wins between them and 5 cups.
9 English sides have topped their pool - 25 pool wins between them and 6 cups.
3 Irish sides have topped their pool - 19 pool wins between them and 6 cups.
3 Welsh sides have topped their pool - 10 pool wins between them.
1 Scottish side has topped its pool - 1 pool win.

The Pool winners - highest to lowest are:

Toulouse 12 - 4 cups
Munster 9 - 2 cups
Leinster 9 - 3 cups
Stade 8
Leicester 7 - 2 cups
Biarritz 7
Cardiff 5
Perpignan 4
Scarlets 4
Bath 4 - 1
Wasps 3 - 2 cups
Northampton 3 - 1 cup
Clermont 2
Harlequins 2
Gloucester 2
Saracens 2
Brive 1 - 1 cup
Ulster 1 - 1 cup
Toulon 1
Edinburgh 1
Swansea 1
Dax 1
Castres 1
Montferrand 1
Pau 1
Colomiers 1
Newcastle 1
London Irish 1


As for point scoring about leagues. There isn't any really. As for teams propping up the leagues they're in - well I don't see Bath or Wasps propping up the AP. In European terms, it comes down to four teams really, in my view.

The point is that if you took Leinster, Munster, Leicester and Toulouse out of the equation, there wouldn't be a lot left. That's 11 cups between them out of 17.
Between them, they represent over a third of the 96 pool wins and 7 of the runners-up finalists out of 17.

The luckiest teams? Ulster and Brive. Only 1 pool win each but also 1 cup each.
Unluckiest? Stade and Biarritz - 15 pool wins between them, but not a single Heineken tin to pee in.