England, who put their hand up?

After yesterdays games who stood out and put their hand up for a late england call. I didnt see the saints vs sarries game so any input from that game would be good.

From the first game of the day (Bath vs Exeter) I thought Eastmond again looked very good, he is not just pace and a step this guy has a lot more to his game, this autumn will certainly be too soon for him but one to keep an eye on. Sadly Attwood isn't having the kind of impact in games that threatens the EPS but Fearns does continue to impress although Louw is the real star performer in the bath pack.

Exeter played their part in a competitive game and I thought Haydn Thomas was a live wire and key to the tempo they play at, obviously he is in a very competitive position but probably playing the best rugby of his career and is worth a mention. Another good performance from Tom Johnson and he has to be a serious contender for the 1st 15.

2nd game, Gloucester vs Tigers. For Glous Freddie Burns was clearly the standout player, took his try fantastically well and his all round game was great, just feel he would have to reign in his attacking instincts a tad in the test arena. the other player who stood out was 12trees, I thought he was excellent yesterday going forward and particularly in defense. Surely its just a matter of time before 12trees makes the england inside centre shirt his own.

Didn't really go tigers and floods way yesterday but still thought flood looked sharp, kicking was generally good and passing had a zip about it, hit a couple of gaps too. not a great performance by any means but he'll have better days with this form. Dan Cole was again outstanding, scrummaging and breakdown work were world class. the tigers 2nd row looks to be a complementary partnership, well balanced, lineout creaked a bit but looked more to do with Youngs timing than the jumpers. I wouldn't be surprised if deacon earns a recall before the 606 darlings garvey and attwood get called up.

special mention for James Simpson Daniel sadly i feel any test hopes are fading now but what a player we have missed out on for England.

Out of the Bath Exeter game yesterday.

Kyle Eastmond, Nick Abendanan, To Biggs, Tom Johnson, Luke Arcort.

If you take out Tom Johnson because he is already in the England set up. then you can say that the others should not be too far away from a call up.

HQ matt wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if deacon earns a recall before the 606 darlings garvey and attwood get called up.

Deacon is in the saxons squad - so is higher up on Lancaster's pecking order. I doubt he will be called up again though.

Deacon is the sort of player that spectators cannot fathom out. He does not do barnstroming runs or massive tackles. What he does do though is makes the players around him perform better. Tigers scrum, rucks and mauls all work better when he is there - and yesterday they were the best they have been this season. He does not steal opposition throws but reads the lineout well and either lifts someone (like Mafi or Croft) into the right place or makes a damned nuisance of himself. He is a quality second row forward of the old school - and in a time when so many are second row/back row hybrids we need some of the old fashioned types.

and in a time when so many are second row/back row hybrids we need some of the old fashioned types.

LT, thats one of the most sensible things ive read on 606 for a long time.

As to the OP...he wont get a call...but Scaysbrook always impresses me...and yeah Burns and Twelvetrees...absolutley be involved....and come January theymust be in the new EPS if this form holds up...

Andy Goode

Looseheaded wrote:Andy Goode

Was he asked "Who wants seconds?"

Robson has been called up...hardly WHERES THE BEEF....its all lineout guys....

wouldnt say palmer, botha or lawes are 'lineout guys'

i wasnt impressed with garvey or attwood this weekend, im not sure robson is such a bad call he has been in fine form this season and i dont know who should be ahead of him.

I think for the new EPS in January...

Burns
Twelvetrees
Garvey
Wade

are must inclusions...

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think for the new EPS in January...

Burns
Twelvetrees
Garvey
Wade

are must inclusions...

Agree with that.

Christian Wade ! Scored 2 more outstanding tries yesterday.
Dai Young,
“Our wings were the difference today but Christian was absolutely outstanding,” Young, the Wasps director of rugby, said. “Christian has to be in the England frame, but England are blessed with some quality wings and all he can do is keep playing the way he plays.
“He was really good in everything he did – he is good under the high kick, made some telling tackles and is strong with the ball. And not many wings would have scored the try he did. I’m thrilled to have him as part of this set up.

Not they're not thats true...i was just exagerating....due to frustration.

Palmer is an alrounder...but not really showing the form of the last few seasons.
Parling will be the lineout guy these AI's
Lawes is injured
Botha is a trier
Now Robson? Hhmmmm im just not getting it.

I will be watching with interest when the new EPS is picked in January.

PS Funny i thought Garvey was good this weekend...and is one part of the reason Irish are beginning to play better...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Robson has been called up...hardly WHERES THE BEEF....its all lineout guys....

That's due to the change in the game over the years Geordie, like it or not i'm afraid. Winning the set peice and gaining position from it are deemed more important than the 'enforcer' style locks of old. That and such enforcers tend to get pinged a lot recently. If you look at the Championship, the SA's had the proper hard men enforcer and they ended up cited and pinged. Just the way the games going i think.

I understand what your saying...if Parling gets injured he is the suitable back up...and lineout is a vital area...although if youngs throws like he did in the first half on Sat it'll be irrelevant anyway

I still think the role of the big powerful genuine second rows are there. We need the guys who provide the grunt and control in the tight exchanges etc...guys like Louis Deacon, Garvey etc..

But if it is becoming a game where those sorts of players are no longer required then i will be very sad indeed.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
PS Funny i thought Garvey was good this weekend...and is one part of the reason Irish are beginning to play better...

I am starting to think that I have the same block over Garvey that others have over Deacon. I just did not see him on sunday.

I guess everyone just view players differently...funnily enough...im one of the ones that rates Deacon aswell

I guess my problem with Garvey generally has been the amount of hype linked with the rare times I see him play - and when I do it is usally at 6.

i may try and watch the game back if I have time and concentrate on what he does.

Yeah unfortunately the amount of hype hasnt helped. But whats new there as soon as any young England hopefully comes through..its annoying.

Ive said before...i would at least have taken the chance to look at him...either in the Saxons again or in the Seniors...and if he is proven not to be of the standard required...then at least we can put that one to rest but at least we'd know once and for all......i would do the same for Fearns aswell...

I like Garvey and would happily see him the mix (Lawes, Launchbury & Kitchener would be my selections ahead of him), though I do feel there are posters on here that paint him as some sort of superman that will cure all England's forward ills, capable of dragging half the Bok team the full length of the pitch (despite carrying not being one of the things he does bring to the table).

In relation to his performance at the weekend, the notable aspect of his play was his 21 tackles, 5 more than anyone else on the pitch.

some sort of superman that will cure all England's forward ills, capable of dragging half the Bok team the full length of the pitch

Blasphemy...

On a serious note...his tackling is absolutely top class...he has been LI's defensive player of the year for the last two years i believe.

I don't think he's seen as a 'superman'! He just offers something different to the locks in the current EPS. Stong tackling, a lot of weight behind the ball, good carrying.To be honest, I'd be happy with either him or Attwood in the squad. They both offer a more tenacious, robust, and 'heavy-duty' option than the current starters. I think England could do with someone like that at the moment, because our options currently seem a little on the light side, and were very overpowered in SA.

Eddie,

I think you've explained that very well...and thats exactly what i think of the situation

Haha, took me a while to realise there who you were referring to!

Cheers GF. Think we think along the same sort of lines when it comes to the second rows!

Who put their hands up for England?

Burns, Wade, Simpson-Daniel, Billy thirty fecking six, Garvey, James Simpson-never going to be fecking picked for England - Daniel.

Who got injured?

The EPS.

Like I said, I'd happily see him in and around the squad and in front of some of the players that are currently there, I'm just wary of some of the inflating of his abilities beyond the very good qualities that he does bring in the tight, at the breakdown and defensively. His carrying is pretty average, not particularly notable in the performances I've seen this season and last (34 metres made with 31 carries so far this season). It's far better to concentrate on what he does do well and can add, evaluating it discerningly, otherwise it sets him up for a fall and calls of disappointment when he does get his chance.

niwatts wrote:I like Garvey and would happily see him the mix (Lawes, Launchbury & Kitchener would be my selections ahead of him), though I do feel there are posters on here that paint him as some sort of superman that will cure all England's forward ills, capable of dragging half the Bok team the full length of the pitch (despite carrying not being one of the things he does bring to the table).

In relation to his performance at the weekend, the notable aspect of his play was his 21 tackles, 5 more than anyone else on the pitch.

Carrying is one of the things he does bring to the table. In fact it is one of his main attributes. Last year when Hala'Ufia was banned he was Irish's best carrier by a very long margin. Those who are saying he was anonymous on Sunday - he made 10 carries and 21 tackles. He is also the lynchpin of Irish's defence at the maul time. I can't understate how good he is and how good he could be for England. One of the most inexplicable absences in my opinion. The only criticism I can think of is that his lineout work isn't as good as most other second rows...that is the only thing.

AlastairW wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Robson has been called up...hardly WHERES THE BEEF....its all lineout guys....

That's due to the change in the game over the years Geordie, like it or not i'm afraid. Winning the set peice and gaining position from it are deemed more important than the 'enforcer' style locks of old. That and such enforcers tend to get pinged a lot recently. If you look at the Championship, the SA's had the proper hard men enforcer and they ended up cited and pinged. Just the way the games going i think.

I have to disagree with you Alastair. If you look at the Tri-Nations sides at present you've got Horwill and Timani for Oz, Etzebeth and Van Der Merwe for SA and Retallick and Romano for NZ. They're all of a heavy duty carrying sort of mould. This concept of the 'enforcer' gets taken too far, these days it's more along the lines of a heavy-weight carrier which every side needs.

This is where England have struggled and whilst it seems that they prefer the back-row to do the carrying, none bar Morgan and Tuilagi are particularly effective in the tight exchanges.

Interestingly, Shaun Edwards was on Sky for the Glaws Amlin game a week or so ago and said that Wales' only consistently missed tackles on England players were Morgan and Tuilagi. Everyone else they dealt with.

Chjw131 wrote:
Interestingly, Shaun Edwards was on Sky for the Glaws Amlin game a week or so ago and said that Wales' only consistently missed tackles on England players were Morgan and Tuilagi. Everyone else they dealt with.

I think it was phrased more along the lines of 'Morgan and Tuilagi are England's two best carriers'. Which is hardly surprising, as they are both pretty exceptional and are in the team to bring that skill.

bluestonevedder wrote:I don't think he's seen as a 'superman'! He just offers something different to the locks in the current EPS. Stong tackling, a lot of weight behind the ball, good carrying.To be honest, I'd be happy with either him or Attwood in the squad. They both offer a more tenacious, robust, and 'heavy-duty' option than the current starters. I think England could do with someone like that at the moment, because our options currently seem a little on the light side, and were very overpowered in SA.

I think what he brings to the table is similar to Lawes, in terms of tackle rate if not in terms of line-out ability. I thought he had a decent game on Sunday, but he wasn't a huge standout and I'm not seeing a particularly effective carrier at AP level this season.

Rowntree obviously isn't convinced. If Garvey keeps playing well then presumably he'll get a Saxons or EPS chance. Then we'll see how he does.

I disagree that England were very overpowered by SA. They certainly had a culture shock for most of the first 140 minutes, but by the final test I thought England's 'lightweight' pack had achieved parity.

Chjw131 wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Robson has been called up...hardly WHERES THE BEEF....its all lineout guys....

That's due to the change in the game over the years Geordie, like it or not i'm afraid. Winning the set peice and gaining position from it are deemed more important than the 'enforcer' style locks of old. That and such enforcers tend to get pinged a lot recently. If you look at the Championship, the SA's had the proper hard men enforcer and they ended up cited and pinged. Just the way the games going i think.

I have to disagree with you Alastair. If you look at the Tri-Nations sides at present you've got Horwill and Timani for Oz, Etzebeth and Van Der Merwe for SA and Retallick and Romano for NZ. They're all of a heavy duty carrying sort of mould. This concept of the 'enforcer' gets taken too far, these days it's more along the lines of a heavy-weight carrier which every side needs.

This is where England have struggled and whilst it seems that they prefer the back-row to do the carrying, none bar Morgan and Tuilagi are particularly effective in the tight exchanges.

Interestingly, Shaun Edwards was on Sky for the Glaws Amlin game a week or so ago and said that Wales' only consistently missed tackles on England players were Morgan and Tuilagi. Everyone else they dealt with.

Good arguement!

I didn't say i was in full favour of the way things are going, but it is the way i see it going. Indeed 'enforcer' is over used these days, but it is a single word the conveys the 'lock of old' if you will. If the currant appointments there is still time to go for heavy carriers for 4 & 5 but Parling with Robson covering (and as a Quins fan i was as surprised as anyone!) that should give us a solid set peice to work from in the other half, but do take away from those hard yard carries.

Cake and eat it springs to mind - i'd love to see a strong carrying second row that is solid in the set, but realistically that isn't available right now.

None of Bath's English contingent are anywhere near the EPS, Wilson is only there to make up the numbers, Webber will only ever play at club level when he's fit again. Biggs is too small, Attwood's a liabilty, Fearns is an injury in waiting, Eastmond can't catch a high ball or make a decent tackle and Abendanon is like a headless chicken.

Move on, there's nothing to see down the Rec.

Not that I want to become obsessed with this, but follow the link and go to page 8 and watch highlights of Saracens vs. Irish. First clip is of a Garvey carry. I can't think of any other English second row forward who can do that. And those who say he isn't known for his carrying, the clip is by no means an anomaly. He is always among our best carriers:

http://www.premiershiprugby.tv/Team/LondonIrish

I agree with Burger I thought Garvey looked pretty good for London Irish vs Quins.

I have said this a few times - the locks in the England squad are average.

Parling is hugely overrated. You want a lineout man to boss the lineout, I am yet to be convinced Parling can do this. Not good enough IMO.

Botha is hard working but I am not convinced he's what England should be looking for. He's neither a typical enforcer lock or lineout man.

Palmer has been in and around the England squad for a long time but I have never been convinced he's anything special. Only in because other locks are either overlooked or not doing enough.

Robson again a lineout man I am not convinced can cut it. WIth him in charge Quins' lineout got torn to shreds by Borthwick.

Summary - you have two lineout men who aren't actually good enough at the lineout IMO and two other locks who don't really fit into any category IMO - neither enforcers or lineout maestros.

I don't think you'll get a lot of arguement out of most poeple with that assesment shocked, but practicalities are leaving us a bit thin on the ground.

AlastairW ok I'll add some argument.

Controversial but my locks would be Borthwick,Garvey,Robson and probably Launchbury (if Lawes is unfit).

You might go why Borthwick? He has shown he can't cut it for England etc. To be honest from a Sarries perspective I am pleased England don't want him.

He's still the best lineout man in England whatever people say. He's the form lock around. He even broke over the gain line the other day to score a try!


A combo of Borthwick and Garvey I think could have worked. The typical lineout-enforcer combo.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

some sort of superman that will cure all England's forward ills, capable of dragging half the Bok team the full length of the pitch

Blasphemy...

On a serious note...his tackling is absolutely top class...he has been LI's defensive player of the year for the last two years i believe.

I'd agree with this. His tackling on Sunday was top draw. His carrying seems to have been a notch down on last year, which is a shame, but I think that's because they're not getting him running on to the ball at pace. Either way he always seems to suck in 2 or 3 players.

DaveM wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:I don't think he's seen as a 'superman'! He just offers something different to the locks in the current EPS. Stong tackling, a lot of weight behind the ball, good carrying.To be honest, I'd be happy with either him or Attwood in the squad. They both offer a more tenacious, robust, and 'heavy-duty' option than the current starters. I think England could do with someone like that at the moment, because our options currently seem a little on the light side, and were very overpowered in SA.

I think what he brings to the table is similar to Lawes, in terms of tackle rate if not in terms of line-out ability. I thought he had a decent game on Sunday, but he wasn't a huge standout and I'm not seeing a particularly effective carrier at AP level this season.

Rowntree obviously isn't convinced. If Garvey keeps playing well then presumably he'll get a Saxons or EPS chance. Then we'll see how he does.

I disagree that England were very overpowered by SA. They certainly had a culture shock for most of the first 140 minutes, but by the final test I thought England's 'lightweight' pack had achieved parity.

Really?! We had spells of parity in the third test when Alberts wasn't barrelling over everyone. Other than that, our pack was mangled.

The likes of marler, hartely, morgan, robshaw and palmer are all powerful and effective carriers.

Im not sure the lack of powerful carries is a personnel issue, I think it stems from a conservative approach to ball retention, particularly early in games. If you take the all blacks as an example they always look for the offload bringing their carriers on to the ball at pace and in space, it makes them look very powerful but in actuality its just timing.

Lancaster seems to want one lock who is his lineout specialist and another dynamic lock with a high workrate in defence, it does make sense.
i dont think dropping the likes of palmer or botha and bringing in garvey will make a significant difference, if you trust your defence and are prepared to take risks in attack the meters will come.

HQ matt wrote:The likes of marler, hartely, morgan, robshaw and palmer are all powerful and effective carriers.

Im not sure the lack of powerful carries is a personnel issue, I think it stems from a conservative approach to ball retention, particularly early in games. If you take the all blacks as an example they always look for the offload bringing their carriers on to the ball at pace and in space, it makes them look very powerful but in actuality its just timing.

Lancaster seems to want one lock who is his lineout specialist and another dynamic lock with a high workrate in defence, it does make sense.
i dont think dropping the likes of palmer or botha and bringing in garvey will make a significant difference, if you trust your defence and are prepared to take risks in attack the meters will come.

Shuffling deck chairs on the titanic at this late stage.

Were doomed. The wave of last minute failure to manage players AP injuries to our EPS has hammered home the last nail into the coffin.

tri, the eps should be able to cope with a hand full of injuries, its not the epic levels of 2009..

having said that squad depth is a little worrying in certain positions but particularly the front row.

t youngs- only been playing hooker a year? and he is 1st in line..
vunipola- just started his 1st senior league season

also at fly half- both farrell and burns are young men and only been regular seniors a year or two.

beshocked wrote:I agree with Burger I thought Garvey looked pretty good for London Irish vs Quins.

I have said this a few times - the locks in the England squad are average.

Parling is hugely overrated. You want a lineout man to boss the lineout, I am yet to be convinced Parling can do this. Not good enough IMO.

Botha is hard working but I am not convinced he's what England should be looking for. He's neither a typical enforcer lock or lineout man.

Palmer has been in and around the England squad for a long time but I have never been convinced he's anything special. Only in because other locks are either overlooked or not doing enough.

Robson again a lineout man I am not convinced can cut it. WIth him in charge Quins' lineout got torn to shreds by Borthwick.

Summary - you have two lineout men who aren't actually good enough at the lineout IMO and two other locks who don't really fit into any category IMO - neither enforcers or lineout maestros.

Beshocked, i think you've summed that pretty much spot on....

This concept of the 'enforcer' gets taken too far, these days it's more along the lines of a heavy-weight carrier which every side needs.

Yes i agree it does...
Im not looking necessarily for a Grewcock or Botha...who often went over the boundries of the laws shall we say...what i want is a big lump of a guy...or rediculously powerful...in the engine room who can control things...if only Simon Shaw was just mid 20's....

Im not the only England fan that is looking for that type of player in there...and people are simply suggesting Garvey as an option because of this....he's no superman.

Also people have mentioned stats about him...being very low metres gained...but it depends where he's carrying...It may be that most of his carries are in the mix of the pack and he's doing the hard graft getting the pack moving forward. That would result in high carry numbers with low metres gained...but is still a critical part of a frowards work rate.

Carrying isnt all about forwards doing the high step forty metres down the pitch....

Morgan needs to show up this AI's in this respect...this is exactly what he's been called in to do...but has so far failed to impress me. Though watching the game at the weekend...he seemed to have found that again...

come on guys this negativity is depressing.

along with wentzel and borthwick, parling and robson are the best lineout forwards in the AP.

it seems to me that some posters just want to see players selected for england because they haven't had an opportunity to disappoint yet.

Thanks Geordiefalcon.

2nd row needs balance like most units in rugby do.

I think people are also suggesting Garvey because he would certainly be no worse than the 2nd rowers picked!

Also with him back in the side LI seem to be performing better.

If you had a backrow of Croft,Wood,Morgan you could probably get away with a 2nd row of Garvey and Lawes.

My personal ideal pack has the no 8 as a proficient 2nd jumper which takes pressure off the key lineout man - meaning 3 options in total - the 4 (the lineout man), the no 8 (secondarily lineout jumper), the 5 (the back up jumper).

Unfortunately neither Morgan and Waldrom are proficient lineout jumpers.

HQ matt wrote:come on guys this negativity is depressing.

along with wentzel and borthwick, parling and robson are the best lineout forwards in the AP.

it seems to me that some posters just want to see players selected for england because they haven't had an opportunity to disappoint yet.

HQ matt the lineout pecking order goes:

1.Borthwick
2.Wentzel







Far behind - Robson and Parling - these guys aren't close to the top 2 when they are fully fit.

DaveM wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:I don't think he's seen as a 'superman'! He just offers something different to the locks in the current EPS. Stong tackling, a lot of weight behind the ball, good carrying.To be honest, I'd be happy with either him or Attwood in the squad. They both offer a more tenacious, robust, and 'heavy-duty' option than the current starters. I think England could do with someone like that at the moment, because our options currently seem a little on the light side, and were very overpowered in SA.

I think what he brings to the table is similar to Lawes, in terms of tackle rate if not in terms of line-out ability. I thought he had a decent game on Sunday, but he wasn't a huge standout and I'm not seeing a particularly effective carrier at AP level this season.

Rowntree obviously isn't convinced. If Garvey keeps playing well then presumably he'll get a Saxons or EPS chance. Then we'll see how he does.

I disagree that England were very overpowered by SA. They certainly had a culture shock for most of the first 140 minutes, but by the final test I thought England's 'lightweight' pack had achieved parity.

There in lies the problem- the lack of physicality meant England did not have physical parity until the 3rd test. It took them 2 whole tests to adjust, which is too long. I only suggest that England particularly lacked carrying power and strength in the second row, and that inclusion of an enforcer style lock here could improve the pack's whole strength. I think a large part of England meeting the physicality challenge in the third test was Haskell's inclusion.

SirBurger wrote:Not that I want to become obsessed with this, but follow the link and go to page 8 and watch highlights of Saracens vs. Irish. First clip is of a Garvey carry. I can't think of any other English second row forward who can do that. And those who say he isn't known for his carrying, the clip is by no means an anomaly. He is always among our best carriers:

http://www.premiershiprugby.tv/Team/LondonIrish

If the clip isn't an anomaly, why did you have to go back a year to find it? I dare say that if someone trawled the archives they could find a clip of Borthwick running a few yards as well. Seeming as he's barely averaging a metre a carry, if he's one of your best carriers, that's probably why you are second from bottom.

splenetic you don't need to look that far. Borthwick scored a try vs Racing Metro, breaking the gain line and powering over. Admittedly from close range but who cares?

beshocked wrote:splenetic you don't need to look that far. Borthwick scored a try vs Racing Metro, breaking the gain line and powering over. Admittedly from close range but who cares?

Well, miracles do happen sometimes

More seriously, I do think Borthwick has been treated a bit harshly - he was always a very high class line-out forward, but as England captain he was being asked to contribute a lot to the all-round game and do things (like carrying in traffic) that have never been his strengths. I do wonder if he'd have been given anything like the same amount of stick if he hadn't been captain as well?

Should he be back in the England setup? For my money not now - 33 years old and having only been a regular first choice for about 3 seasons (lots of time in the squad and on the bench). I think it tells you that at international level he isn't quite of the highest rank.

beshocked wrote:

HQ matt wrote:come on guys this negativity is depressing.

along with wentzel and borthwick, parling and robson are the best lineout forwards in the AP.

it seems to me that some posters just want to see players selected for england because they haven't had an opportunity to disappoint yet.

HQ matt the lineout pecking order goes:

1.Borthwick
2.Wentzel







Far behind - Robson and Parling - these guys aren't close to the top 2 when they are fully fit.

I'd probably go for the following in terms of pure lineout ability

Kennedy
Borthwick
Wentzel
Croft
Parling