Pro12 Round 8; Ulster vs Edinburgh

First topic message reminder :

Well, the Pro12 picks up at Ravenhill on Friday night under the shadow of the impending test matches and it's because of those this match is pretty hard to call right now. Ulster are heavy favourites on form, but there's a joker in the deck; a lot will depend on what players are released from their respective national squads for the weekend

Ulster are missing 14 players from their regular squad- either to Ireland duty or injury- and a number of niggling injury worries has meant players we might normally expect to get back haven't been released.

Ulster XV & replacements to face Edinburgh, RaboDirect PRO12, Friday 2nd November, Ravenhill (7.05pm):
(15-9): R Andrew; C Cochrane, J Payne, P Wallace, C Gilroy; R Pienaar, P Marshall;
(1-8): C Black, N Brady (capt), J Afoa, L Stevenson, N McComb, S Ferris, M McComish, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Annett, R Lutton, A Macklin, R Diack, N Williams, N O'Connor, S Olding, P Nelson.

Unavailable for selection (14):
Rory Best, Tommy Bowe, Tom Court, Darren Cave, Chris Farrell, Declan Fitzpatrick, Iain Henderson, Chris Henry, Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall, Paddy McAllister, Johann Muller, Andrew Trimble, Dan Tuohy.

There's an element of rotation with Jared Payne moving to outside centre to allow Ricky Andrew to make his full Ulster debut at fullback and Roger Wilson making his first Ulster start in four years- the impressive Nick Williams will surely enjoy wreaking havoc form the bench in the second half. Whilst Ulsters depth has improved tenfold in recent times, this is a much weakened side- even if it does have a spine of experience (Brady, Afoa, Ferris, Wilson, Pienaar, Wallace, Payne).

However, Edinburgh themselves are missing 10 to the Scottish squad- Geoff Cross, David Denton, Ross Ford, Allan Jacobsen, Ross Rennie, Nick De Luca, Lee Jones, Greig Laidlaw, Matt Scott and Tim Visser are all taking part in preparations for Scotlands clash with New Zealand on the 11th November. Stuart McInally and Grant Gilchrist have been released to face Ulster this weekend.

Edinburgh team:

1 Yapp
2 Titterell
3 Nel
4 Gilchrist
5 McAlipne
6 Cox (Capt)
7 Grant
8 McInally
9 Leck
10 Hunter
11 Brown
12 King
13 Houston
14 Jones
15 Tonks

Subs Walker, Jacobson, Niven, VDV, Watson, Rees, Fife, Visser jnr

The absence of 21 players to either Scotland or Ireland plus injuries gives both teams a fairly unfamiliar look, with the honours likely to go to the side who adapts best.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Hook,

where do you get the worse players better coached from? There is not one of those MFLs I would take at Glasgow. That include Visser who is way overrated. DTH vdM is a much better rugby player. Edinburgh are utter gash and Robinson can keep the rubbish he insists on playing from them. Also Townsend is a good coach ! Are you totally insane ?

Hope that clears that up

Where did I say Townsend is a bad coach? That's your opinion mate, I have no problem it. I wasn't aware that I wasn't allowed to voice one you didn't agree with. Thanks for clearing that up at any rate. There are zero players I'd have from Glasgow at Ulster, I'd take a couple from Edinburgh. I'm sure some Ulster fans would disagree. van der Merwe for me is pretty decent. Visser scores tries as much as I don't think he is the second coming as some Scottish fans do. its borderline, but I'd take Visser. You are welcome to disagree. If Edinburgh had a better coach then I have no doubt they would at the very least be on a par with Glasgow. But I'm sure we will see next season- I can't imagine Bradley will still be in a job.

Glasgow's pack has grit and a hard edge. Bloody hard to play against. Edinburgh have a lot of good ball players up front but not much in the way of real nastiness or aggression. Maybe this new Saffer lock will add a bit.

They are a soft side, Edinburgh. Capable of beautiful attacking rugby but they have a soft enough underbelly. They can be bullied a little bit by more physical teams, they are quite passive in defence and concede too many linebreaks and they have precious little aggression at the breakdown or in the tackle.

Sorry Embra fans. Can't be nice reading this.

Notch wrote:Glasgow's pack has grit and a hard edge. Bloody hard to play against. Edinburgh have a lot of good ball players up front but not much in the way of real nastiness or aggression. Maybe this new Saffer lock will add a bit.

They are a soft side, Edinburgh. Capable of beautiful attacking rugby but they have a soft enough underbelly. They can be bullied a little bit by more physical teams, they are quite passive in defence and concede too many linebreaks and they have precious little aggression at the breakdown or in the tackle.

Sorry Embra fans. Can't be nice reading this.

Edinburgh ARE soft. Classic case was Gilroy's try last night. Maybe it should have been blown up, there's a decent argument to be made that it should have been disallowed. Fact remains that Gilroy gave his a slight barge with the shoulder and knocked him to the ground, and he was probably giving away three of four stone no doubt. Soft and brittle.

I'd love to have Tommy Seymour back. He's much better than Chris Cochrane or Ricky Andrew who got a game last night.

Problem is he's far too good to just be warming the bench until Trimble and Bowe go off on international duty and he knows it. Thats why I'm glad he's doing so well over in Scotland. Hope he gets a cap for his adoptive nation, the queue in Ireland is far too long.

I'd also like Al Kellock and John Barclay, but they wouldn't dislodge Muller or Henry so its a rather moot point.

If top try scorer 3 years in a row is over rated I'd like to know what you have to do to be classed as good!

If this is gonna become a 'visser is crap' session I'm out.

Once again 21st is having one of his many 'robinson is the spawn of Satan, all Edinburgh players don't deserve to breathe' rants - so I'm also out!

RDW_Scotland wrote:If top try scorer 3 years in a row is over rated I'd like to know what you have to do to be classed as good!

If this is gonna become a 'visser is crap' session I'm out.

Once again 21st is having one of his many 'robinson is the spawn of Satan, all Edinburgh players don't deserve to breathe' rants - so I'm also out!

I don't think he's the second coming of wingers as you and some of your Edinburgh and Scottish cohorts have stated. But you cant argue with his try scoring record and playing in a team, can we be charitable and say not the league's strongest. And sure one way or the other he will silence either his detractors or his supporters by the end of March.

#justice4visser.

As an Ulster fan as well as Glasgow, the Ginger Tackle Monster would fit in well at Ulster... And well we all know Fez might not last much longer.

RDW, I'm not one of the 'Visser is crap' brigade and he's a damn good finisher but his defence is not one of his strong points. Lamont, and to a lesser extent Seymour are more complete players and I feel a lot of those touting Visser (and Maitland for that matter) as the saviours of Scottish rugby are slightly delusional!

You did not imply Townsend was a bad coach. You implied he was a good one, which he is defo not. Still to hear a Warrior say he would rather have Townsend over Lineen.

I don't think visser is the 2nd coming, but it does my nut in that we can't get excited by a try scoring machine for Edinburgh and now hopefully Scotland without every other nation hounding down at us for doing so. He's not the messiah - bit top try scorer (and players player of the year) is a good start.

There's been so many visser arguments on here that its just become boring.

I've said it before - if he was Irish or Welsh his name would be sung from the rooftops!

RDW_Scotland wrote:I don't think visser is the 2nd coming, but it does my nut in that we can't get excited by a try scoring machine for Edinburgh and now hopefully Scotland without every other nation hounding down at us for doing so. He's not the messiah - bit top try scorer (and players player of the year) is a good start.

There's been so many visser arguments on here that its just become boring.

I've said it before - if he was Irish or Welsh his name would be sung from the rooftops!

Problem is RDW, he's Dutch!!!

RDW_Scotland wrote:
I've said it before - if he was Irish or Welsh his name would be sung from the rooftops!

If he was Irish Deccie would still pick Keith Earls....

rodders wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:
I've said it before - if he was Irish or Welsh his name would be sung from the rooftops!

If he was Irish Deccie would still pick Keith Earls....

Or play him at 13!

RDW_Scotland wrote:I don't think visser is the 2nd coming, but it does my nut in that we can't get excited by a try scoring machine for Edinburgh and now hopefully Scotland without every other nation hounding down at us for doing so. He's not the messiah - bit top try scorer (and players player of the year) is a good start.

There's been so many visser arguments on here that its just become boring.

I've said it before - if he was Irish or Welsh his name would be sung from the rooftops!

Some fans have shoved it down others throats so you have to expect a backlash. I'm not pointing that anyone but it has been done. You'll notice that I have been I think fair about Visser and totally respect your opinion on him. But there's a difference between 'being excited' and some of what has been written on these boards. That is no excuse for some of the WUM response back on the matter either.

And I think your wrong regarding Wales and Ireland. Both have quality wings already so neither have any need to shout about ultimately exciting player, albeit one who has everything to prove. We also have Gilroy, Kearney and Zebo, all younger and in my opinion more talented players than Visser. But thats my opinion and like Visser, until they actually prove themselves at european and international level they are nothing more than players with potential.
On the other hand the Scottish back line cupboards are bare. I'm not surprised you are excited about Visser. A touch of realism wouldn't go a miss from some posters. As I've said, we can talk about it as much as we like here, by the end of March he will have played against the best the southern hemisphere and then in the Six Nations. Thats when all the silly Lions talk will be worth something. One way or the others either his fans or detractors will be silenced. The WUMs? Not so much.

Anscombes thoughts:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20191636

You the man Mark!

MrsP wrote:

rodders wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:
I've said it before - if he was Irish or Welsh his name would be sung from the rooftops!

If he was Irish Deccie would still pick Keith Earls....

Or play him at 13!

id love to see him earning his scars in the AIL.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I don't think visser is the 2nd coming, but it does my nut in that we can't get excited by a try scoring machine for Edinburgh and now hopefully Scotland without every other nation hounding down at us for doing so. He's not the messiah - bit top try scorer (and players player of the year) is a good start.

There's been so many visser arguments on here that its just become boring.

I've said it before - if he was Irish or Welsh his name would be sung from the rooftops!

He's a very naughty boy!

Sorry couldn't resist that

On a more relevant note, I do think Marshall has played well this year and I would really like to see him get at least a bit of game time against Fiji. Same with Paddy Jackson, want to see him or Madigan on the bench at some point. If neither start or make the bench in any game I am going to keep writing my letters to Kidney and IRFU, but this time they will be more strongly worded! Having said that would like to see Keatley involved too so we know who makes the cut. See that's the thing, I just want to see new blood with potential involved without sitting through an autumn series and a 6 Nations where I and pretty much everyone here could pick the team that is going to be picked cause Kidney is so bloody predictable! Why have O'gara sitting there when we can have exciting potential that will give us some information?

Add to that so many others that should be involved or at least given a chance -Cave, Hanrahan, Gilroy, Henry and more. Kidney began to change just before the WC but since then has reverted to type. Where's that clock again?

Anyway, with regards to Visser, yes I have no doubt he is a great club player, and I have no reason to believe he won't be a good or great international. At same time though he's going to have to prove himself in that regard, but at least he's more than likely going to get the chance, guess he's just lucky he didn't come to Ireland when Deccie's in charge

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I don't think visser is the 2nd coming, but it does my nut in that we can't get excited by a try scoring machine for Edinburgh and now hopefully Scotland without every other nation hounding down at us for doing so. He's not the messiah - bit top try scorer (and players player of the year) is a good start.

There's been so many visser arguments on here that its just become boring.

I've said it before - if he was Irish or Welsh his name would be sung from the rooftops!

Some fans have shoved it down others throats so you have to expect a backlash. I'm not pointing that anyone but it has been done. You'll notice that I have been I think fair about Visser and totally respect your opinion on him. But there's a difference between 'being excited' and some of what has been written on these boards. That is no excuse for some of the WUM response back on the matter either.

And I think your wrong regarding Wales and Ireland. Both have quality wings already so neither have any need to shout about ultimately exciting player, albeit one who has everything to prove. We also have Gilroy, Kearney and Zebo, all younger and in my opinion more talented players than Visser. But thats my opinion and like Visser, until they actually prove themselves at european and international level they are nothing more than players with potential.

On the other hand the Scottish back line cupboards are bare. I'm not surprised you are excited about Visser. A touch of realism wouldn't go a miss from some posters. As I've said, we can talk about it as much as we like here, by the end of March he will have played against the best the southern hemisphere and then in the Six Nations. Thats when all the silly Lions talk will be worth something. One way or the others either his fans or detractors will be silenced. The WUMs? Not so much.

Hooky - which of the above do you think should occupy the other wing berth for Ireland with Bowe? I don't watch him every week, but when I do Trimble never really seems to, well, how can I put this, *do* anything of note. Maybe I've just been watching the wrong games.

George Carlin wrote:
Hooky - which of the above do you think should occupy the other wing berth for Ireland with Bowe? I don't watch him every week, but when I do Trimble never really seems to, well, how can I put this, *do* anything of note. Maybe I've just been watching the wrong games.

I think you might have been George....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZa8wFmk31s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5UTuhwPD3M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-Ot6VeSEOg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIwJ-bahVWc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbuFsNeOq8A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryV6bLGdiZg&feature=related

Trimble has been playing well. He's not the spectacular flying machine the likes of Visser is, he's more the guy who does all the little things very well. Very physical.

Fair enough Rodders.

I am assuming that is your real name and it's not "Mrs Trimble"...

George Carlin wrote:
Hooky - which of the above do you think should occupy the other wing berth for Ireland with Bowe? I don't watch him every week, but when I do Trimble never really seems to, well, how can I put this, *do* anything of note. Maybe I've just been watching the wrong games.

I hate to use the trite retort of 'you clearly haven't been watching Ulster', but suffice to say you clearly haven't been watching. If you believe the only way to measure a wing's usefulness is how many tries they score then Trimble is far, far down the list.

Running into the World Cup he was Ireland's form back, yet Kidney picked Earls. Even George Hook praised his performances. You might not be aware of the legend that is George, but imagine you had a commentator from Glasgow who loathed everything about your team and goes out of his way to belittle them in the international arena. I'm sure you have someone in mind. That's Hook.

Trimble I thought was relatively average last season, many Ulster fans thought his rump would be warming the bench this season and Craig Gilroy would take his place. Trimble has been Ulster's best winger this season, and arguably is Ireland's form winger based on performance, though I'm sure Zebo would also be a contender. His strength is coming off his line hunting for work, and is similar to Bowe in that flat out speed is not his main weapon, it is the lines he runs. Trimble's defence is excellent, he is extremely physical and makes very few mistakes. However his fielding of the ball when it is kicked over his head is still average at best. He has been very poorly used by Kidney at international level. Trimble is at his most effective when he comes off his wing and creates space in attack in the middle of the field. Kidney doesn't seem to use him in this role and makes his selection often entirely pointless. The other issue is that he simply doesn't score enough tries, though this season in particular he has excelled in creating the space for others to score.

To me Trimble is a guy that is a very good provincial player and a good backup winger for a national team. Perfectly capable in the international game but just not quiet good enough to be a certain starter.

Thanks for the detail and you're right, it's hard to watch all of the Ulster performances from here. Seems he's a bit like Ireland's Sean Lamont.

My thing about Trimble (and Rodders' video montage supports this, really) is that whilst he is obviously a great creater and wreaker of havoc and his positional play must be first class (that's how you get intercept tries in the modern game), I've never really seen him score crucial tries at crucial moments in the same way that I regularly do with Bowe. I think that means that I think he's an excellent provincial player but an unproven international strikeman. Which I think is what you've just said.

George Carlin wrote:Thanks for the detail and you're right, it's hard to watch all of the Ulster performances from here. Seems he's a bit like Ireland's Sean Lamont.

My thing about Trimble (and Rodder's video montage supports this, really) is that whilst he is obviously a great creater and wreaker of havoc and his position play must be first class (that's how you get intercept tries in the modern game), I've never really seen him score crucial tries at crucial moments in the same way that I regularly do with Bowe. I think that means that I think he's an excellent provincial player but an unproven international strikeman. Which I think is what you've just said.

Thats it. But in many ways he's a perfect counter-point to Bowe on the opposite wing. You need someone to chase down kicks, make big tackles, come off his wing to take crash balls in midfield and make yards all things he does very well. He's fast, quick, clever and strong. I think he should start.

Notch wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Thanks for the detail and you're right, it's hard to watch all of the Ulster performances from here. Seems he's a bit like Ireland's Sean Lamont.

My thing about Trimble (and Rodder's video montage supports this, really) is that whilst he is obviously a great creater and wreaker of havoc and his position play must be first class (that's how you get intercept tries in the modern game), I've never really seen him score crucial tries at crucial moments in the same way that I regularly do with Bowe. I think that means that I think he's an excellent provincial player but an unproven international strikeman. Which I think is what you've just said.

Thats it. But in many ways he's a perfect counter-point to Bowe on the opposite wing. You need someone to chase down kicks, make big tackles, come off his wing to take crash balls in midfield and make yards all things he does very well. He's fast, quick, clever and strong. I think he should start.

I would start him too, but Kidney uses his incorrectly so his strengths aren't on show. In terms of being a out and out touchline hugging winger there are better choices. With a competent coach a Bowe-Trimble partnership on the wings would be effective. However, with competent coaching and selection Ireland might be able to put Keith Earls in his best position, which for me is wing, where he could be genuinely world class. But ho hum, the Kidney clock tells me we have plenty of dirge to go through yet.

Trimble has scored the most tries for Ulster so far this season hasn't he?

Also, Gilroy is so so good. He needs to work on his decision making at times, but he just has that flair that not many players possess. He makes it look easy. My only real criticism is that he should come inside more, similar to Bowe and Trimble, who always seem hungry for work. Gilroy is a game changer, so we should involve him as much as possible.

George Carlin wrote:Fair enough Rodders.

I am assuming that is your real name and it's not "Mrs Trimble"...

Damn! Rumbled! .....

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Visser is crap. If we had invested anything like the energy wasted on him with DTH vdM before he committed to Canada we would have a true Int class player. It makes me angry. Watch next week v the ABs - he (Visser) will be a shrinking violet. And btw Schlong Lamont has more cojones than the entire MFL back line - not that that would be too difficult !

see this is why I cannot take you seriously. Have you had some traumatic event in your life caused by someone from edinburgh? Your utter hatred of us is just mind boggling at times. Theres good natured rival banter which im all for, but you just seem soooooo angry about something. Its not even like bad loserism, because your team is doing so well atm. It cant be defensive either, as Glasgow are a well liked team by neutrals, no one really bad mouths them, and id wager most edinburgh supporters have them as their second team. Youre entitled to your opinion and all, but im just interested in understanding whats formed it, because ive never seen one quite like it.

Youve gone from doing nothing but rant about Andy Robinson, to now just gloating and slagging off edinburgh with just about every post you write. You dont have to like us, no ones forcing you to, but you spend so much time making up nick names for us, telling everyone how worthless our players are, complaining that any of our players are picked for Scotland, I cant help but feel you have some fixation with Edinburgh. Why not just ignore us if you dont like us so much? We have our problems at the club, im not suggesting for a single second that we dont, but most clubs have had that at some point over the years. I just dont see what constant slandering gains?

On to actual rugby related matters, I shouldnt even dignify the first sentence with an answer, but seriously? Top try scorer three seasons running, already got an outrageous strike rate this season in mis-firing team, and hes crap? Teams constantly talk about what a danger he is and how they are going to have to mark him out of the game, and he still scores against them, and hes crap? You must have very high standards for wingers. It is possible that both Visser and VDW can be good at the same time? Its not a an exclusive club that only one winger can be a member of at any one time.

I know its not really the topic of this thread, but i might aswell include this here. When Glasgow were propping up the league the season before last, no-one complained about how many Warriors were in the scotland team. No one complained because we still recognised that there were good players in that team, even if the performances and results werent coming their way. If we had dismissed all warriors players because of their domestic results/form, Richie Gray wouldnt have played, John Barclay wouldnt have played, Cusiter wouldnt have played, Kellock wouldnt have played, etc etc. The same applies for Edinburgh just now. Guys like Rennie, GIlchrist, Scott, De Luca, Tonks, Visser are all playing well just now, and deserve to be considered. I have full faith that they will give it their all should they be included, just as the warriors boys gave it their all when they played. THe national team requires balance, we saw in early 2009 what happens when its loaded too much with players from one club. Everyone knows their game, because they see it week in week out in the league. If England put out essentially the saracens 15, everyone would know how to play them. Same goes for if France played the toulouse 15, New Zealand the Chiefs, South Africa the sharks. Certainly, good club form merits a higher representation in the national side, but its not set in stone.

Imperialbigdave - great post!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Imperialbigdave - great post!

agreed

We have somewhat of a second row crisis guys. Stevenson out for 4 weeks. Although I assume Tuohy and/or Henderson will be released from Ireland training camp to play.

Down to one lock!

No we aren't, we have McComb, Diack and Rava..

Would be interested to see Henderson play second row in the Rabo,he's made a great impact at 6.Can he do the same at lock?

I think he will ultimately end up at lock. He is potentially best there IMO.

rodders wrote:No we aren't, we have McComb, Diack and Rava..

Phew!

And there was me getting all worried!

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Would be interested to see Henderson play second row in the Rabo,he's made a great impact at 6.Can he do the same at lock?

Easily. Better to have him at lock and a dynamic 6, than him at 6 and a less dynamic lock.

RDW_Scotland wrote:If top try scorer 3 years in a row is over rated I'd like to know what you have to do to be classed as good!

If this is gonna become a 'visser is crap' session I'm out.

Once again 21st is having one of his many 'robinson is the spawn of Satan, all Edinburgh players don't deserve to breathe' rants - so I'm also out!

+1 21st used to be a reasonable poster if a bit opinionated but has now succumbed to poor WUMery

Not much we can say though. Ulster were better, much better. But turning them over at Ravenhill missing our key forwards was always oing to be tough.

As RDW said congrats for the win and the encouraging comments guys. Being an Edinburgh fan isn't much fun at the moment.

Also IBD ..... fantastic post mate

Whichever way you cut it, Scotland needs both Glasgow and Edinburgh to be performing well to prosper, and I just can't understand fans of either Glasgow or Edinburgh wishing the other, or it's Scottish players, ill. The only time I EVER want Glasgow to lose is the two derby fixtures, and I can't see that happening for the foreseeable future.

Edinburgh are in a total mess. On the back of an envelope, I make Bradley's stats at Edinburgh to read as follows:

Played 40
Won 14
Draw 1
Lost 25

The overall points difference is circa -150.

Pathetic, and no reflection of the players he has available, particularly this season. We should not be losing to Treviso at home.

I'd make things very clear to Bradley. Fail to beat Glasgow in the derby fixtures and you get fired on the 29th December. It's all Edinburgh has to play for this season! Even succeeding in that respect, fail to finish in the middle/top half of the Rabo at the end of the season and you get fired. Enough of this soft supportive nonsense. It's time for the stick approach. If I have to put up with another month of hearing how "honest" the Edinburgh players have been I'll vomit.

Stevenson out for 4-6 weeks, bit of a second row crisis at Ulster now.

Christ time to sign Brad Thorn I think.....

In fairness Diack did very well on Friday night.

Time for Hendo to play 2nd row??? Instead of pretending he's a flanker

I was kind of hoping with Ferris out he'd keep pretending......

rodders wrote:Christ time to sign Brad Thorn I think.....