Saracens v's Wasps

As a Wasps fan, I'm so much more optimistic about our season this year than last year.
Some of our players are fantastically exciting to watch, and we've played some pretty expansive rugby this year.
Unfortunately, we've had a few serious injuries / retirements already this season, so I'm hoping that we won't have a repeat of last years problems.

My optimism leading up to each game is usually tempered by my concerns with our, at times woeful defence, and our scrummaging which although better than recent years still isn't up where it needs to be.

So, with this weekends game against Saracen's I'm a little concerned that they may take us apart up front, and run through our midfield at will.
I'm also concerned that their really strong defence will keep our attack quiet.

So, with my optimism sadly lacking this weekend, I ask you.... Do Wasps stand a chance this weekend?

The game is being played at VR I hate to be pedantic but I would appreciate if the title reflected that.

I think Wasps actually have a pretty good chance. Wasps beat Saracens last season at Twickenham.

Saracens' frontrow is not a strength so I wouldn't expect you to be taken apart there.

Saracen's strength is normally the lineout and backrow but Wasps have players to potentially match them there.

Biggest weakness for Saracens that I would definitely look to exploit is Ratuvou at 12. If Barritt was starting, no I don't think Wasps would stand a chance but with him missing Wasps' chances of victory go up tentold.

Barritt is the defensive lynchpin of the Saracens backline and with him missing the Saracens defence is not as strong. He's always very underrated in attack.

Wasps have excellent wingers and will be dangerous on the counter. I do worry about Strettle's defence.

Saracens do have the stronger bench though that might swing it in their favour.

I genuinely think Wasps can pull off a shock unfortunately.

Unfortunately I don't think we currently have the strength in depth to compete with the top sides, as beshocked mentions, even if they are missing a few internationals.

Hopefully over the next couple of years with some shrewd signings and with some youngsters developing nicely that will change.

Reckon it will be close though.

Title has been changed... sorry for that.... I wasn't even thinking.


I wasn't actually aware that Barritt was out.
That does make me a bit happier for our attack.

Front Row battle will be interesting.
While it may not be Sarries strength, they don't usually get taken apart as I have seen happen to Wasps in the recent past.



Personally, I don't think we're as strong a squad as Saracen's, but I do think that we are capable of shocking some of the top teams on occasions, although probably not regularly at the moment.

Fingers crossed that this is one of those times.

If Varndell and Wade get a few opportunities and manage to take them Saracens might just panic with a few second choice players on the pitch. Players who haven't had that much game time have a tendency to crumble when under pressure. I suppose Saracens have a decent rotational policy so might be less susceptible to this than most but we will see.

Thanks Wasps. As I said. Just me being pedantic.

At 12 I am worried because I cannot remember the last time Ratvuou played there. If I was coach I would even gamble by picking Stanley there.

Saracens don't take opposition scrums apart - certainly with Stevens moving to loosehead we won't. Nieto will put pressure on Payne hopefully though.

dgttaylor I don't think there will be any panicking as there's plenty of ability on the Saracens bench to make an impact if they are struggling.

It's unpicking that centre combo that could lead to headway for Wasps and targetting Strettle.

On the other hand if Brits continues his current form he'll certainly test the Wasps' defence.

Certainly Sarries bench looks stronger than ours but there is nobody there that I would be afraid of. Impact to me means guys who can come on and turn a game. Their bench has undoubted quality and experience and wouldn't panic, which if you are defending a lead is ideal, but going in to the last 20 minutes a try down I am not sure who they could turn to.

I looked at the last few head to heads between these two and they tend to be close affairs. More exicted than I was at the start of this thread!

Another top Viva game.

I've been ranting about the wasps wings on another thread so come on boys do your thing.

Anyone think Billy V could fill England/Thompson's 2 Shirt???

Thompson was also a converted backrow.

kingelderfield wrote:Another top Viva game.

I've been ranting about the wasps wings on another thread so come on boys do your thing.

Anyone think Billy V could fill England/Thompson's 2 Shirt???

Thompson was also a converted backrow.

I think he might fill the 8 shirt. He's raw but from what i've seen this year he's hugely promising. I'm not sure what the stats show but his carrying has looked fantastic. Just the kind of bruiser we need.

I don't think he has the engine on him for an international backrow, he is so talented but seems to tire in the last 20, at 6ft 2 and 20 odd stone he is definately the build of a front row, bit late for change now though?

I think Vunipola's fitness has improved, he is lasting longer this season then last. Part of me would like to see him in a backrow with Steffon Armitage.

Really hope the weather clears for them as this could be the game of the weekend.

Wasps must be confident of the upset.

kingelderfield wrote:Really hope the weather clears for them as this could be the game of the weekend.

Not sure what it is like in Watford, but where I am it is a torrential downpour.

Wasps must be confident of the upset.

Why? All Wasps wins have come against sides in the bottom 1/3rd of the table.

sirtidychris wrote: I don't think he has the engine on him for an international backrow, he is so talented but seems to tire in the last 20, at 6ft 2 and 20 odd stone he is definately the build of a front row, bit late for change now though?

Would have to agree at the moment, but as FKAS (can i abbreviate like that?!) says it has already improved a lot and hopefully will continue to do so. I have no idea what his dedication to training is like but he's clearly improved his conditioning. I think you could still argue that Morgan is a 60 min player only at present as well. Vunipola would be a helluva impact player, but perhaps isn;t versatile enough to warrant a bench spot yet.

People are raving about Easter's form, but i think Morgan has looked very handy and Vunipola, at least in terms of carrying, has been the pick of the bunch. Not bad for a 20yr old.

On moving him to front-row - T Youngs went to hooker at a later age so perhaps, I think we lack a real bruising carrier in the pack. A converted Vunipola in the front-row and a slimline, fit Morgan at 8 and Garvey at SR could be mouth watering, certainly wouldn't get bullied...but i guess it's in fantasy land at present!

Billy V used to play prop, I think. But TH is a much more technical position than Hooker so a change (back?) to prop for a Vunipola front row seems unlikely

Billy's brother Mako used to suffer with endurance problems, but he went away last season and made a massive improvement in his fitness. I reckon Billy will be looking to do the same thing.

It's worth remembering that he is just 20 and already making ground against seasoned professionals, imagine what he'll be like in a couple of years when he's developed a hard nosed edge to his game. He will also develop his fitness as his career develops and I have no doubt he'll be challenging for the England no.8 spot at some point in the not too distant future.

On moving him to front-row - T Youngs went to hooker at a later age

It took two and a half years for him to adapt with regular game time at Nottingham. Even when he came back to Tigers it took further development time. If Vunipola attempted similar he may well put his career back 3 years at least. Tom had no choice as he was told he wasn't a good enough centre to make it at Tigers or internationally but could do so if he switched position, this has turned out to be a good call by Meyer. However, Vunipola is not in the same position, he could make the England squad as Lancaster prefers the chunky mobile 8s.

Poor start by Wiggy

Great break by strettle - weak defence by Wasps then they cynically kill the ball.

Anothe rpoor kick by Wiggy gives Wasps all the room in the world. Great pace by Varndell.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

On moving him to front-row - T Youngs went to hooker at a later age

It took two and a half years for him to adapt with regular game time at Nottingham. Even when he came back to Tigers it took further development time. If Vunipola attempted similar he may well put his career back 3 years at least. Tom had no choice as he was told he wasn't a good enough centre to make it at Tigers or internationally but could do so if he switched position, this has turned out to be a good call by Meyer. However, Vunipola is not in the same position, he could make the England squad as Lancaster prefers the chunky mobile 8s.

You're right, i should have said 'It's possible, but probably not advisable'.

He just did another monster carry. If he can hold onto the ball more often I genuinely think he's shaping up to be a top class player. Would love him to kick on and up further improve his fitness. Very very raw but i see no-one in England who can carry better.

Brad Barritt's presence is definitely sorely missed.

Wasps the better side in the 1st half though I feel Saracens haven't got out of first gear yet. Need to up their game or wasps could well win this.

Billy and wade are looking very dangerous.

Hodgson is making too many tackles. No Barritt there is crucial.

Cumbrian wrote:Billy's brother Mako used to suffer with endurance problems, but he went away last season and made a massive improvement in his fitness. I reckon Billy will be looking to do the same thing.

It's worth remembering that he is just 20 and already making ground against seasoned professionals, imagine what he'll be like in a couple of years when he's developed a hard nosed edge to his game. He will also develop his fitness as his career develops and I have no doubt he'll be challenging for the England no.8 spot at some point in the not too distant future.

I think Mako and Billy worked togethe over the summer with their dad didn't they. It shows with both of them. What's impressive about Billy is that he actually has pretty good feet as well, he seems capable of shifting his position quickly in a small space. It's clearly too early to say, but he looks like a player with the potential for international level. I don't think we're blessed with genuine ball-carrying 8s so would love to see him kick on.

beshocked wrote:Brad Barritt's presence is definitely sorely missed.

Wasps the better side in the 1st half though I feel Saracens haven't got out of first gear yet. Need to up their game or wasps could well win this.

Billy and wade are looking very dangerous.

Hodgson is making too many tackles. No Barritt there is crucial.

Agreed on Barritt. I know you think there's more to his game but his defence alone makes Sarries a better team.

Really impressed by Wade, for a small guy he seems to make decent yardage even when caught, he sort of wiggles his way forward. Looked good under the high ball, defence looks passable. Pretty encouraging, hope I haven't jinxed him.

Hood83 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Billy's brother Mako used to suffer with endurance problems, but he went away last season and made a massive improvement in his fitness. I reckon Billy will be looking to do the same thing.

It's worth remembering that he is just 20 and already making ground against seasoned professionals, imagine what he'll be like in a couple of years when he's developed a hard nosed edge to his game. He will also develop his fitness as his career develops and I have no doubt he'll be challenging for the England no.8 spot at some point in the not too distant future.

I think Mako and Billy worked togethe over the summer with their dad didn't they. It shows with both of them. What's impressive about Billy is that he actually has pretty good feet as well, he seems capable of shifting his position quickly in a small space. It's clearly too early to say, but he looks like a player with the potential for international level. I don't think we're blessed with genuine ball-carrying 8s so would love to see him kick on.

That's right, he's slimmed down a lot from last year. He's playing well in this game, although he could do with hanging on to the ball a bit better.

Good decision by tmo. Poor/high tackle. Not sin bin. Penalty is smart decision.

Austin Healy talks some Poopie, I can guarantee you when a decision was made against him in a match he didn't just accept it and move on. Tool.

Agree with that neiltom. Austin is talking rubbish at the mo. Ref and tmo make smart decision and Austin criticises it.

beshocked wrote:Good decision by tmo. Poor/high tackle. Not sin bin. Penalty is smart decision.

Completely disagree. Poor tackle, but that is all.

By modern interpretation I did not see that as a penalty.

It was a clear cut penalty. Dangerous tackle and high

funnily I didn't say poopie I said something which means the same thing and it was auto changed lol but some of the stuff he says is rubbish the other guy is right if players do talk back yellow card them that's the way its always been.

beshocked wrote:It was a clear cut penalty. Dangerous tackle and high

Disagree. Hargreaves was ducking.

Good reffing so far by Jp Doyle IMO.

Other than his positioning doyle has been good. A few times more than he should he has obstructed Sarries in attack.

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:It was a clear cut penalty. Dangerous tackle and high

Disagree. Hargreaves was ducking.

Agree entirely. The hit was on the upper arm and rolled up.

The Haskell penalty seems to have taken the puff out of Wasps. Shame, looked like they were worthy of a LBP at least.

Not sure how much Wasps have created. They have thrived on any poor kicking by Sarries - but in general Sarries have been much better.

LondonTiger wrote:Not sure how much Wasps have created. They have thrived on any poor kicking by Sarries - but in general Sarries have been much better.

True, but Wasps look like a team close to being a very decent one to me. A better front row and they could be very handy. Their ability to create scores from turnover ball is pretty damn good.

I think Wasps have been unfortunate. Can't see what Vunipola could have done there. They've let this slip away.

Good result. Not playing particularly well but got the 4 points.

Charlie got a battering today. He plays best with Barritt who helps him make tackles.

Yes, but Sarries give Hodgson the responsibility to make his tackles and he usually does. I noticed yseterday that in defence Saints were trying to hide Lamb at FB.

Well I think we deserved the losing BP. The game more or less panned out as expected with the Sarries squeeze once again earning a win.

Launchbury, Billy V & our wings once again excelled but unfortunately Robinson is very inconsistent with his kicking & Jones is injured at the moment. Maybe we should give Tommy Bell a spell at FH?

I know Davies scored the try for our losing bonus point but I thought he was a bit poor. Kick charge down, a few missed tackles and picking some wrong options from the base. Simpson there would have made a big difference. Thought Robinson was poor as well, his tactical kicking seemed aimless (as in a lot of it was straight down Wyles' throat). A better 9/10 axis yesterday and we could have sneaked it. I think Daly is maturing nicely, some great defence and looks a genuine threat going forward.

LondonTiger wrote:Yes, but Sarries give Hodgson the responsibility to make his tackles and he usually does. I noticed yseterday that in defence Saints were trying to hide Lamb at FB.

I think Hodgson is injured though. Could be out for a while. Will be a huge blow if he misses the Munster double header.

Rumours are he has fractured his cheek. He has certainly injured his cheekbone. We'll hear soon how bad it is.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/04/saracens-wasps-premiership-report


I don't think Hodgson would have got injured if Barritt was playing.

beshocked wrote:Rumours are he has fractured his cheek. He has certainly injured his cheekbone. We'll hear soon how bad it is.

That could be a big loss. Manu missed 6 matches last Autumn after fracturing his cheekbone against glaws.

Yes it would be a huge loss. Especially as Farrell is with England. Seeing the battering Hodgson took does make me more appreciative of Farrell Jr. Certainly his tackling at 10. At 6,2 and 15 st he is bigger than the 12st 12 and 5,10 Hodgson.

Having Billy run at Hodgson was painful.

I still would like to see Saracens look at signing Daly and Vunipola Jr.

With Hodgson potentially out and Farrell on international duty who is likely to step in at 10? I know Mordt played there yesterday and has done in the past. Always seemed solid if unspectacular. Any other young prospects coming through?

We have someone called Sam Stanley whose supposedly a fly half/centre but I haven't seen much from him. Been very unlucky with injuries.

We used to have Jake Sharp but he's at Bedford now. Doing well for them actually I believe.

Mordt looks likely to deputise if Hodgson is out.

Feel free to take Farrell back...

Do you think Vunipola (No.8 version) could be a weapon for England...his carrying seems seriously powerful.

Back rows are about balance. There is no doubt he could be a great weapon as there are not many (English) 8's out there who could be effective as him in close quarters. Depends who you play him with and how they play with him. Think you would need an open side who was quick across the ground and good on the deck, as well as a workhorse 6 who could hit rucks and make tackles, leaving Vunipola to ramapage as and when he was freed up.
Fitness for international rugby will be the real test for him as others have mentioned. As a bench option might be effective provided other members of the starting team could accommodate him at 8. If he was to start what about Armitage at 7, Robshaw at 6 Vunipola at 8?