Ireland vs South Africa pre-match talk and squad announcements.

First topic message reminder :

The much anticipated Autumn Iinternationals has arrived and South Africa will begin their three test tour against Ireland on Saturday at Landsdowne road. With a record of only one win in their last four test matches and 3 straight losses between 2004 and 2009, the Springboks would like to continue their resurgence against Ireland and emulate their two point victory of 2010.

But will they be up for an Ireland team who have been just about as disappointing as the Springboks were in 2012.

Ireland who boast wins over Scotland and Italy and a Hard earned draw over France at Stade de France earlier in the year has a disappointing return of 5 losses, 2 wins and 1 draw for the year.

South Africa has not fared much better, with 4 wins, 3 losses and 2 draws for the year.

Both teams will rue lost opportunities during the year where execution and specifically goal kicking have haunted the Springboks in Particular. Their goal kickin records stands at a miserly 55% for the year and will lose you more tests than win.

Ireland will be without their inspirational captain Brian O'Driscoll and South Africa after a long season will bewithout the services of Arguably the best Hooker in world rugby Bismarck du Plessis, the athletic Andries Bekker, talisman Schalk Burger, Pierre Spies, Heinrich Brussow, Johan Goosen, Bryan Habana (yeah I know I am complaining a bit much here), Frans Steyn and Coenie Oosthuizen.

Will this end of season tour be a bridge too far for an injury riddled South African squad or will they be able to overcome an Irish team who hasn't convinced this year.

Likely SA matchday 22.

1. Beast Mtwarira
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Jannie du Plessis
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Juandre Kruger (Marco Wentzel)
6. Francois Louw
7. Willem Alberts
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Patrick Lambie
11. Francois Hougaard
12. Jean de Villiers
13. Jaco Taute
14. JP Pietersen
15. Zane Kirchner

Bench
16. Gurthro Steenkamp
17. Schalk Brits
18. Pat Cilliers
19. Flip v d Merwe
20. Marcelle Coetzee
21. Franco v d Merwe
22. Jan Vermaak
23. Morne Steyn

I'll update if someone provides me a likely Irish matchday 22.

Likelihood of Henderson being involved now?

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Just seen it on the Beeb news ticker...

Ryan and Tuohy with Donners on the bench?

Whoever has the best defensive lineout game. McCarthy should be in there as well. Someone like Toner would suit this game.

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Just seen it on the Beeb news ticker...

Ryan and Tuohy with Donners on the bench?

It's got to be that, at least we have two aggressive and abrasive locks on the pitch which could be key against this big springbok pack. Touhy isn't too bad with ball in hand either.

I would love to see Henderson in the mix for the second row position but he hasn't had enough experience there as a professional, his ulster caps have mostly been at 6

Tuohy hasn't done a bad job of running Ulster's lineout since Muller's injury and Ryan has been doing the same so no fears about lineout time.

McCarthy could do a pretty good job from the bench, but I think DOC has been in good form too. Toner, I'm afraid, isn't quite there yet and probably not the type of player to front up to the Bokke. We need carriers with Fez/BOD/SOB/POC missing and Tuohy/Ryan will both give it a damn good go.

Also yeah might be a case for Hendo, although with Henry/Heaslip there there's a decent tail lineout option...

Key personnel aging is clearly part of the problem. But if you open your eyes (hah! fat chance) and look at how Ireland are trying to play, you can clearly see thats also part of the problem. Then we get into the mental side of things, oh jeez...

For me, we have the following problems.

1) Coaches are very much out of their depth, under-qualified to address the problems facing the current Irish side.
2) There is a massive gulf between how the provinces want to play rugby and how the national team does. This leads to guys like Paddy Wallace who thrive in one kind of gameplan being used to play a different role internationally that they are not suited too. He is first choice for his province on merit but not an option for the national side. Similarly for how Leinster and Munster have addressed the fullback position this season with a second playmaker doesn't suit Irelands gameplan, leading to a lack of options.
3) The national coach has failed to devise a gameplan to suit the players he has available, meaning he has to force round pegs into square holes. The lack of depth and options also means his hands are tied on a number of players such as Gordon D'Arcy. They continue to perform poorly yet are retained due to a lack of options.
4) Players are aging; obviously O'Driscoll and O'Connell the key men are absent more and more through injury. But the failure to adequately replace Gordon D'Arcy, Peter Stringer and David Wallace has also been costly and it seems we will also soon be faced with having to replace Stephen Ferris.
5) The success of provincial rugby has raised expectations on Ireland to unrealistic levels. For fans raised on a diet of Heineken Cups, nothing less than European domination will do. The fall of Ireland to 4th/5th best team in Europe means the players and coaches have to deal with huge amounts of pressure and negativity when they take to the field, knowing that any defeat will see them eviscerated in the pubs and press.
6) It also seems provincial loyalties extend to the squad. Players stick with their 'own'.

So what are your thoughts for the ireland team on the even of the first team of the seasons announcement?

1. Healy
2. Stauss
3. Ross
4. POC
5. Ryan
6. POM
7. Henry
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Trimble
12. D'Arcy
13. Cave
14. Bowe
15. Earls

O'Connell is injured. I expect this team.

1. Healy
2. Strauss ( not happy)
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. Tuohy
6. O'Mahony
7. Henry
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton (c)
11. Trimble
12. D'Arcy
13. Earls
14. Bowe
15. Zebo

I don't agree with Strauss representing Ireland, but I do like our pack mostly. It's good but lacking in true class. However it should be capable of matching most sides.

The backline is pretty terrible by the standards of this level. Hope they give the armband to Sexton, that could help us.

Like that backrow, not blown away by Henry but I have seen some great stuff by POM.

Zebo at 15 would be a concern for me, mind you I dont think Earls is much better as a fullback. I would have wanted Keatley.

No thoughts that maybe Paddy Jackson might get in at 15?

Oh god, no. He has to risk here. Any time he has to do that, he'll pick a Munster player.

Ah look Notch, Jackson being thrown in at 15 would be a far bigger risk and unfair on the player too against a side like the Boks. Let him start against Fiji at 10 or at least be on the bench with 22 not 23 on his back.

Zebo or Earls or Bowe or Hurley would all be risks of different sorts, granted Bowe has a wealth of experience but he is a winger cum centre not a winger come FB inho. Earls is the best of those options at 15 but seeing as he'll be playing 13 (here's where you suggest Cave play & I'd agree with you to a certain degree but dont think Earls is anything less than up to the task all the same) picking a pacey and maturing Zebo is a bold call. From a conservative coach. Now, having come through 180 mins of rugby I'd have drafted in Jones myself (or Madigan for that matter) but obvs Kidney feels that Jones hasn't enough rugby in his legs and didnt look so 'on it' in those two games to say I am back in now, which is the coaches call in the end, not ours.

But please please please, leave the chip on your shoulder down. Injuries are depriving Ulster of 2 dead cert starters, while another injury should allow Tuohy in, while both wings will almost certainly be Ulster men too. So with Henry at 7 you have nearly 1/3 of the team (while missing said two dead cert starts) So under recognition is not an issue in my opinion.

Notch wrote:Oh god, no. He has to risk here. Any time he has to do that, he'll pick a Munster player.

Ah here now - do you really think that Kidney would be doing Paddy Jackson or the team a favour by putting a 20 year old outhalf at fullback who no one has ever seen what he is like under a high ball?

Why risk Zebo at fullback when it would be less of a risk to put Earls at FB, Bowe in the centre and Zebo and Trimble on the wings.

Ideally you want to just pick the best team and not risk management the team sheet out, but at least Bowe HAS played at centre, Earls HAS played at fullback.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Oh god, no. He has to risk here. Any time he has to do that, he'll pick a Munster player.

Ah here now - do you really think that Kidney would be doing Paddy Jackson or the team a favour by putting a 20 year old outhalf at fullback who no one has ever seen what he is like under a high ball?

No?? I don't think I ever said that at all.

earls will play 2nd centre as he is 2nd behind Drico on deccies roster which has been fairly set for the last few years.

i agree earls is the most experienced full back in our squad at this level and should start there.

[quote="Notch"]Key personnel aging is clearly part of the problem. But if you open your eyes (hah! fat chance) and look at how Ireland are trying to play, you can clearly see thats also part of the problem. Then we get into the mental side of things, oh jeez...

For me, we have the following problems.

1) Coaches are very much out of their depth, under-qualified to address the problems facing the current Irish side.
Which is an aging team in transition and the replacements are not as good yet.

2) There is a massive gulf between how the provinces want to play rugby and how the national team does[/b]. This leads to guys like Paddy Wallace who thrive in one kind of gameplan being used to play a different role internationally that they are not suited too. He is first choice for his province on merit but not an option for the national side. Similarly for how Leinster and Munster have addressed the fullback position this season with a second playmaker doesn't suit Irelands gameplan, leading to a lack of options.

There should not be a difference between how the provinces & national team play. What you fail to recognise is that the ABs & Boks are a step up from Castre or Edinburgh. How do you rationalise the schooling Leinster gave Ulster with Paddy Wallace at centre in the HCup final? What went wrong there for Paddy.

Leinster has been missing their first choice fullback and I wouldn't describe Denis Hurley as a playmaker.


3) The national coach has failed to devise a gameplan to suit the players he has available, meaning he has to force round pegs into square holes. The lack of depth and options also means his hands are tied on a number of players such as Gordon D'Arcy. They continue to perform poorly yet are retained due to a lack of options.

The lack of depth is going to an issue for every coach to deal with (and why you see Joe Schmidt still selecting a BOD-D'Arcy combo).


4) Players are aging; obviously O'Driscoll and O'Connell the key men are absent more and more through injury. But the failure to adequately replace Gordon D'Arcy, Peter Stringer and David Wallace has also been costly and it seems we will also soon be faced with having to replace Stephen Ferris.

Which will discourage any decent coach of wanting to coach Ireland.

5) The success of provincial rugby has raised expectations on Ireland to unrealistic levels. For fans raised on a diet of Heineken Cups, nothing less than European domination will do. The fall of Ireland to 4th/5th best team in Europe means the players and coaches have to deal with huge amounts of pressure and negativity when they take to the field, knowing that any defeat will see them eviscerated in the pubs and press.

So isn't it time that the fans copped on and took a realistic view of the options. A good start would be to blame Kidney for where we are now and stop taking pot shots at any Munster player that dares to put their hand up.

6) It also seems provincial loyalties extend to the squad. Players stick with their 'own'.

Maybe thats why Kidney likes Zebo - he seems to be very easy going and very pally with the rest of the lads.

Wallace had a good game in the Final

Is your answer... assume that no decent coaches will ever want to coach Ireland, and hopefully we can finish in the Top 3 of the Six Nations from time to time. You know, instead of trying to be the best team we can be. Accept mediocrity? This seems bizarre.

We all know that the Boks and AB's are a step up from HC level. Who compares Ireland to them? We have to compare ourselves to the other 6N teams. Is England and Wales a step up from playing Clermont away from home in a semi final?
Imho I dont think so.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:We all know that the Boks and AB's are a step up from HC level. Who compares Ireland to them? We have to compare ourselves to the other 6N teams. Is England and Wales a step up from playing Clermont away from home in a semi final?
Imho I dont think so.

Not a big step, but yeah. It is a step up for sure.

Between two extremes; the gulf is bigger than you think, and smaller than he thinks.

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:We all know that the Boks and AB's are a step up from HC level. Who compares Ireland to them? We have to compare ourselves to the other 6N teams. Is England and Wales a step up from playing Clermont away from home in a semi final?
Imho I dont think so.

Not a big step, but yeah. It is a step up for sure.

Between two extremes; the gulf is bigger than you think, and smaller than he thinks.

I dont see it. There was some much more skill and intensity in the Leinster v Clermont semi than any 6N game.

I don't really understand your responses Sin. The whole point of my post was to illustrate we have problems beyond our coaches.

Course, they are deadweight, but there's nothing more they can do for Ireland.

A big problem in replacing them is the unwillingness of top coaches to deal with the old farts we have still gusting through the halls of the IRFU. We have too many amateurs involved above Kidneys head, bringing nothing to the table.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:We all know that the Boks and AB's are a step up from HC level. Who compares Ireland to them? We have to compare ourselves to the other 6N teams. Is England and Wales a step up from playing Clermont away from home in a semi final?
Imho I dont think so.

Not a big step, but yeah. It is a step up for sure.

Between two extremes; the gulf is bigger than you think, and smaller than he thinks.

I dont see it. There was some much more skill and intensity in the Leinster v Clermont semi than any 6N game.

That group of players was building towards that all season; international level you get a week with your teammates, two weeks if you're lucky, bigger crowd, more media attention, more pressure...

But you are also right. Leinsters players were able to perform to a higher level in that game because they were working within a system they knew and trusted, that has been proven to work and win games. Thats what we don't have.

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:We all know that the Boks and AB's are a step up from HC level. Who compares Ireland to them? We have to compare ourselves to the other 6N teams. Is England and Wales a step up from playing Clermont away from home in a semi final?
Imho I dont think so.

Not a big step, but yeah. It is a step up for sure.

Between two extremes; the gulf is bigger than you think, and smaller than he thinks.

The thing is Ireland also usually have PoC,Ferris,Best,Bowe,Ryan,Murray,Earls and the rest so Ireland are a step up from Leinster and it balances out.However Ireland don't make the step up that our players should because we have an inept management team.

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:We all know that the Boks and AB's are a step up from HC level. Who compares Ireland to them? We have to compare ourselves to the other 6N teams. Is England and Wales a step up from playing Clermont away from home in a semi final?
Imho I dont think so.

Not a big step, but yeah. It is a step up for sure.

Between two extremes; the gulf is bigger than you think, and smaller than he thinks.

So how come the Welsh players can manage the step up? The only way the Irish v Welsh conundrum, that deals with the disparity between Provincial and International performances, can be rationalised is for us to suggest that either the Welsh players are better players than the Irish and just simply don't try at regional level (lack of HECs) or the Irish players are better players than the Welsh but just don't want to try at International level for some peculiar reasons best known to themselves.

We can't have it both ways - it's either or. So again, if Irish players find it so difficult to step up from HEC (playing and beating hefty and slick English and French sides) to International, why do Welsh players find it so easy to step up from Pro12 (Treviso, Zebre, Connacht etc) to International?

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:We all know that the Boks and AB's are a step up from HC level. Who compares Ireland to them? We have to compare ourselves to the other 6N teams. Is England and Wales a step up from playing Clermont away from home in a semi final?
Imho I dont think so.

Not a big step, but yeah. It is a step up for sure.

Between two extremes; the gulf is bigger than you think, and smaller than he thinks.

I dont see it. There was some much more skill and intensity in the Leinster v Clermont semi than any 6N game.

That group of players was building towards that all season; international level you get a week with your teammates, two weeks if you're lucky, bigger crowd, more media attention, more pressure...

But you are also right. Leinsters players were able to perform to a higher level in that game because they were working within a system they knew and trusted, that has been proven to work and win games. Thats what we don't have.

Exactly, so a 6N game is not a step up at all. Its a pretty comical excuse to make for Ireland's performances.

How did you get that from what I said?

You raise the example of Wales. Wales have far better coaches than Ireland, a far more professional set-up. They have similar depth and similar quality and there's no reason we shouldn't be where they are.

At the same time, that in no way means Heineken Cup is the same as Test Rugby. Test Rugby has different, specific challenges that make it harder.

SecretFly wrote:

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:We all know that the Boks and AB's are a step up from HC level. Who compares Ireland to them? We have to compare ourselves to the other 6N teams. Is England and Wales a step up from playing Clermont away from home in a semi final?
Imho I dont think so.

Not a big step, but yeah. It is a step up for sure.

Between two extremes; the gulf is bigger than you think, and smaller than he thinks.

So how come the Welsh players can manage the step up? The only way the Irish v Welsh conundrum, that deals with the disparity between Provincial and International performances, can be rationalised is for us to suggest that either the Welsh players are better players than the Irish and just simply don't try at regional level (lack of HECs) or the Irish players are better players than the Welsh but just don't want to try at International level for some peculiar reasons best known to themselves.

We can't have it both ways - it's either or. So again, if Irish players find it so difficult to step up from HEC (playing and beating hefty and slick English and French sides) to International, why do Welsh players find it so easy to step up from Pro12 (Treviso, Zebre, Connacht etc) to International?

Ireland can step up on the international stage. Sure we beat Australia in the South in a WC. We just cant do it consistantly for some reason.

Notch wrote:How did you get that from what I said?

You raise the example of Wales. Wales have far better coaches than Ireland, a far more professional set-up. They have similar depth and similar quality and there's no reason we shouldn't be where they are.

At the same time, that in no way means Heineken Cup is the same as Test Rugby. Test Rugby has different, specific challenges that make it harder.

You said that the players only get a week maybe two with each other and play with a system they aren't familiar with. So how can a team that only gets a couple weeks together playing against another team in the same situation be of a higher standard?

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:We all know that the Boks and AB's are a step up from HC level. Who compares Ireland to them? We have to compare ourselves to the other 6N teams. Is England and Wales a step up from playing Clermont away from home in a semi final?
Imho I dont think so.

Not a big step, but yeah. It is a step up for sure.

Between two extremes; the gulf is bigger than you think, and smaller than he thinks.

I dont see it. There was some much more skill and intensity in the Leinster v Clermont semi than any 6N game.

That group of players was building towards that all season; international level you get a week with your teammates, two weeks if you're lucky, bigger crowd, more media attention, more pressure...

But you are also right. Leinsters players were able to perform to a higher level in that game because they were working within a system they knew and trusted, that has been proven to work and win games. Thats what we don't have.

.... and Brad Thorn who had a phenomenal game not to mention a bit of (welsh type) luck.

Anyway, Ireland drew with France last 6Ns - with a bit of luck could have won it.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Notch wrote:How did you get that from what I said?

You raise the example of Wales. Wales have far better coaches than Ireland, a far more professional set-up. They have similar depth and similar quality and there's no reason we shouldn't be where they are.

At the same time, that in no way means Heineken Cup is the same as Test Rugby. Test Rugby has different, specific challenges that make it harder.

You said that the players only get a week maybe two with each other and play with a system they aren't familiar with. So how can a team that only gets a couple weeks together playing against another team in the same situation be of a higher standard?

Are you serious? Are you actually reading my posts?

The answer to your question is in the post you've just quoted! I'll even highlight it.

Notch wrote:I don't really understand your responses Sin. The whole point of my post was to illustrate we have problems beyond our coaches.

Course, they are deadweight, but there's nothing more they can do for Ireland.

A big problem in replacing them is the unwillingness of top coaches to deal with the old farts we have still gusting through the halls of the IRFU. We have too many amateurs involved above Kidneys head, bringing nothing to the table.

Exactly, so I wish people would stop blaming Kidney & his Munster supposed Munster bias!

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Notch wrote:How did you get that from what I said?

You raise the example of Wales. Wales have far better coaches than Ireland, a far more professional set-up. They have similar depth and similar quality and there's no reason we shouldn't be where they are.

At the same time, that in no way means Heineken Cup is the same as Test Rugby. Test Rugby has different, specific challenges that make it harder.

You said that the players only get a week maybe two with each other and play with a system they aren't familiar with. So how can a team that only gets a couple weeks together playing against another team in the same situation be of a higher standard?

Are you serious? Are you actually reading my posts?

The answer to your question is in the post you've just quoted! I'll even highlight it.

I think you highlighted the wrong part because that has nothing to do with what im saying.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Notch wrote:How did you get that from what I said?

You raise the example of Wales. Wales have far better coaches than Ireland, a far more professional set-up. They have similar depth and similar quality and there's no reason we shouldn't be where they are.

At the same time, that in no way means Heineken Cup is the same as Test Rugby. Test Rugby has different, specific challenges that make it harder.

You said that the players only get a week maybe two with each other and play with a system they aren't familiar with. So how can a team that only gets a couple weeks together playing against another team in the same situation be of a higher standard?

This is Wayne Smith's assessment:

Ireland
Declan Kidney had been able to transfer the drive and passion of Leinster, Munster and even Ulster into the national team. He coached Munster with a passion, but the national team is deteriorating. Players are ageing and Kidney is struggling to find the replacements. Ireland finished where they deserved to. Yes, they were without O’Driscoll throughout and O’Connell for the latter part of the Six Nations, but those two cannot be so far off retirement. What then?

Wales
Warren Gatland has a clear selection strategy based on size and speed. It is curious that several of these players have come through an unsuccessful under-20 team, but Gatland is obviously picking out the right ones. North, Cuthbert, Priestland, Davies and Halfpenny are going to be around for years. They are big players, physically and athletically. Now they need to start beating southern hemisphere sides on a regular basis.

Looks like Gatland has hit Wales' 'Golden Generation'.

Notch wrote:O'Connell is injured. I expect this team.

1. Healy
2. Strauss ( not happy)
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. Tuohy
6. O'Mahony
7. Henry
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton (c)
11. Skrela
12. D'Arcy
13. Earls
14. Bowe
15. Zebo

Fixed it for you Notch

Jesus, now the suits and ties brigade are causing our International downfall...?

And Sin é agrees that they should take some of the blame - anything but the coach and his fellow coaches (who he - Kidney - hand picked and continues to hand pick, and continues to decide personally when to pick them or not, when to fill a gap or not - his call, as he reminds us.)

But nope, the amateur suits and ties are responsible for the feeble ball handling skills and utter comical confusion on the field when pressure is brought to bear on the 'gameplan'.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Notch wrote:How did you get that from what I said?

You raise the example of Wales. Wales have far better coaches than Ireland, a far more professional set-up. They have similar depth and similar quality and there's no reason we shouldn't be where they are.

At the same time, that in no way means Heineken Cup is the same as Test Rugby. Test Rugby has different, specific challenges that make it harder.

You said that the players only get a week maybe two with each other and play with a system they aren't familiar with. So how can a team that only gets a couple weeks together playing against another team in the same situation be of a higher standard?

Are you serious? Are you actually reading my posts?

The answer to your question is in the post you've just quoted! I'll even highlight it.

I think you highlighted the wrong part because that has nothing to do with what im saying.

So how can a team that only gets a couple weeks together playing against another team in the same situation be of a higher standard?

Because they have the best of everything. The elite players, the elite coaches, everything. You need to get everything right.

But my point is; International Rugby is harder because it takes players out of their comfort zone.

SecretFly wrote:

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:We all know that the Boks and AB's are a step up from HC level. Who compares Ireland to them? We have to compare ourselves to the other 6N teams. Is England and Wales a step up from playing Clermont away from home in a semi final?
Imho I dont think so.

Not a big step, but yeah. It is a step up for sure.

Between two extremes; the gulf is bigger than you think, and smaller than he thinks.

So how come the Welsh players can manage the step up? The only way the Irish v Welsh conundrum, that deals with the disparity between Provincial and International performances, can be rationalised is for us to suggest that either the Welsh players are better players than the Irish and just simply don't try at regional level (lack of HECs) or the Irish players are better players than the Welsh but just don't want to try at International level for some peculiar reasons best known to themselves.

We can't have it both ways - it's either or. So again, if Irish players find it so difficult to step up from HEC (playing and beating hefty and slick English and French sides) to International, why do Welsh players find it so easy to step up from Pro12 (Treviso, Zebre, Connacht etc) to International?

The Welsh team is spread across 3 teams with a couple in France, though the Ospreys seem to be able to do very well when they come up against an Irish team or province and probably true to say that Munster & Ospreys knocked each other out of the Heineken Cup 2 years ago with neither progressing.

In saying that, the Welsh team have yet to beat a SH one (think they have one recent win against Australia in the Mellenium in '07) so they have their issues too.

SecretFly wrote:Jesus, now the suits and ties brigade are causing our International downfall...?

And Sin é agrees that they should take some of the blame - anything but the coach and his fellow coaches (who he - Kidney - hand picked and continues to hand pick, and continues to decide personally when to pick them or not, when to fill a gap or not - his call, as he reminds us.)

But nope, the amateur suits and ties are responsible for the feeble ball handling skills and utter comical confusion on the field when pressure is brought to bear on the 'gameplan'.

What on earth is this about?? Who said that?!

There are lots of problems. Some with the players, some with the coaches, some with the IRFU. Some of them are directly related to the teams performance, some are related to the culture of the organisation as a whole.

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Notch wrote:How did you get that from what I said?

You raise the example of Wales. Wales have far better coaches than Ireland, a far more professional set-up. They have similar depth and similar quality and there's no reason we shouldn't be where they are.

At the same time, that in no way means Heineken Cup is the same as Test Rugby. Test Rugby has different, specific challenges that make it harder.

You said that the players only get a week maybe two with each other and play with a system they aren't familiar with. So how can a team that only gets a couple weeks together playing against another team in the same situation be of a higher standard?

Are you serious? Are you actually reading my posts?

The answer to your question is in the post you've just quoted! I'll even highlight it.

I think you highlighted the wrong part because that has nothing to do with what im saying.

So how can a team that only gets a couple weeks together playing against another team in the same situation be of a higher standard?

Because they have the best of everything. The elite players, the elite coaches, everything. You need to get everything right.

But my point is; International Rugby is harder because it takes players out of their comfort zone.

Oh no, I meant how does that make it a higher standard than HC knock out rugby. I know that international rugby is different and is more difficult for the players but thats the same for every international player. That doesnt mean its a higher standard.

SecretFly wrote:Jesus, now the suits and ties brigade are causing our International downfall...?

And Sin é agrees that they should take some of the blame - anything but the coach and his fellow coaches (who he - Kidney - hand picked and continues to hand pick, and continues to decide personally when to pick them or not, when to fill a gap or not - his call, as he reminds us.)

But nope, the amateur suits and ties are responsible for the feeble ball handling skills and utter comical confusion on the field when pressure is brought to bear on the 'gameplan'.

I actually don't think the suits are to blame tbh. Just the standard of player available isn't what it used to be, because apart from their playing skills, losing big characters from the squad like Jerry Flannery for instance, can lessen the togethernesss of the group.

I said it was a step up, Leinster fan. Thats what I'm arguing.

Notch wrote:I said it was a step up, Leinster fan. Thats what I'm arguing.

Ok but I dont think it is. Just my opinion.

Sin é wrote:
This is Wayne Smith's assessment:

Ireland
Declan Kidney had been able to transfer the drive and passion of Leinster, Munster and even Ulster into the national team. He coached Munster with a passion, but the national team is deteriorating. Players are ageing and Kidney is struggling to find the replacements. Ireland finished where they deserved to. Yes, they were without O’Driscoll throughout and O’Connell for the latter part of the Six Nations, but those two cannot be so far off retirement. What then?

Wales
Warren Gatland has a clear selection strategy based on size and speed. It is curious that several of these players have come through an unsuccessful under-20 team, but Gatland is obviously picking out the right ones. North, Cuthbert, Priestland, Davies and Halfpenny are going to be around for years. They are big players, physically and athletically. Now they need to start beating southern hemisphere sides on a regular basis.

Looks like Gatland has hit Wales' 'Golden Generation'.

Gatland has a clear plan of the way he wants his teams to play. The players must fit into his system. Kidney picks what he thinks are the best players and expect them to perform. The players are confused, BOD even admitted that a few weeks back.

Kidney is out of his depth at this level. We need a new coach with a 21st century gameplan and an injection of youth.

Sin é wrote: losing big characters from the squad like Jerry Flannery for instance, can lessen the togethernesss of the group.

Losing big characters like Jerry is considerable less stressful for those of us who worry about rampant yellow cards!

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Jesus, now the suits and ties brigade are causing our International downfall...?

And Sin é agrees that they should take some of the blame - anything but the coach and his fellow coaches (who he - Kidney - hand picked and continues to hand pick, and continues to decide personally when to pick them or not, when to fill a gap or not - his call, as he reminds us.)

But nope, the amateur suits and ties are responsible for the feeble ball handling skills and utter comical confusion on the field when pressure is brought to bear on the 'gameplan'.

I actually don't think the suits are to blame tbh. Just the standard of player available isn't what it used to be, because apart from their playing skills, losing big characters from the squad like Jerry Flannery for instance, can lessen the togethernesss of the group.

I think the standard of player is higher. However the quality is more distributed into different teams playing different styles of rugby. Circa 2006 we had a lot of key units who were used to performing together -

Stringer and ROG
D'arcy, Horgan, Dempsey and O'Driscoll,
Flannery, Horan Hayes
POC and DOC.

We still have top players - Sexton, Ferris, Bowe, BOD, POC, Ryan, Heaslip, Best, Healy, O'Brien - but we don't have a balanced back line, a functioning 8, 9, 10 unit or a cohesive gameplan that suits the players we are selecting.

The two main reasons for that in my opinion are because:

a) Our coaching team don't have sufficient tactical knowledge and ability at this level
b) The IRFU men in suits are a useless shower of shoitehawks and there is political pressure on the coaches to select certain players.

But hey ho you have to make the best of things... Ireland by 8

The problem is guys like hanrahan cant get onto his provincial team even during an international window after a motm performance the week before.Meanwhile Wales are giving international debuts to 17 year olds.

Welsh players are coming through club systems and are more developed physically at an early age.... not always via natural or legal methods if I can speak frankly (without facing libel action )

Ours are coming through schools systems until they are 16-18.

Was at a workshop with Chris Shiels the other night, who does strength and conditioning work with the Ulster and Irish academies and he was saying that the young guys coming into the academies need a couple of years of core training just to iron out muscle imbalances and get them to a point were their bodies are strong enough to play without getting injured.

He's working with Brian McLaughlin now to get the school boys doing more core work, grappling skills and stuff to help them develop physically and skills wise.

rodders wrote:Welsh players are coming through club systems and are more developed physically at an early age.... not always via natural or legal methods if I can speak frankly (without facing libel action )

Ours are coming through schools systems until they are 16-18.

Was at a workshop with Chris Shiels the other night, who does strength and conditioning work with the Ulster and Irish academies and he was saying that the young guys coming into the academies need a couple of years of core training just to iron out muscle imbalances and get them to a point were their bodies are strong enough to play without getting injured.

He's working with Brian McLaughlin now to get the school boys doing more core work, grappling skills and stuff to help them develop physically and skills wise.

Now there's some real sense into the discussion. A real stab at an answer and a real concern for me. I've said before that the disparity between the physiques of Irish players (in general) and that of virtually any of the top ten sides they might now meet is often so very pointed to me. There is an arguemnt that less definition and bulk might give you more mobiltiy but the evidence doesn't really back it up.
The next level for Ireland is to get serious about early physical conditioning of young players so that they are closer to 'the finished article' when they are arriving at Provinces than they now are.
Toner is an example of a player that arrived as a flag pole and he's been trying since to get into the right condition to keep him competitive at the highest levels in Europe. Fionn Carr is like a balloon full of air. He has the form of a conditioned man but it seems very superficial 'bounce' muscle rather than hard impact muscle. He looks like a guy who gym trains in a completely wrong way.
Rodders is right - this is an area that will see us lag behind other nations if we don't expect better/scientific development of promising players.

It would benefit Ireland if individuals such as odriscoll, darcy, ogara and oconnel were encouraged to look for contracts abroad by the time they reach their 30's.

It seems to me that they, along with the high quality foreign players at each of the provinces are clogging up the pathways for young irish talent, and preventing Ireland from developing real strength in depth.

It was interesting that when the nzru provinces announced their squads for next year's super 15 tournament, 50 had never played super rugby before. Ireland province players such as howlett, laulala and afoa have long been confined to New Zealand history.

Steve Hansen therefore has 50 new faces to consider for international honours.

Declan Kidney has hardly 50 players to choose from in total.

Our gameplan is holding us back more than most things I think.

The fact that we try and play a slow game based on power when we are one of the least powerful teams in the top 10 nations.

I fully believe 2 selection changes could aid this hugely.

1) Reddan for Murray
With the size of our backs we will not go through guys. We need to go around them or rather "by them". For that you NEED quick ball.

What difference would this make? It would mean that Sexton getting the ball would not so regularly be faced with a very set and prepared defence and would not be shifting it to outside backs who aren't big enough to get over the gain line which is very far away due to the speed of service and slow ball.

2) Someone for Darcy
I really appreciate the defencive work that Darcy does, but if we had a more creative force at 12 and BOD was used as a more direct runner (which he can do) I think we could get our back 3 which is actually quite dangerous (Earls, Kearney, Bowe, Zebo, Trimble, Gilroy all dangerous runners)

Now these are two changes but it would hopefully coincide with a change in philosophy. We can't continue on with our attacking philosophy as such.

Our coaches are not giving us direction or rather an effective direction that works for our team.

I really put the personal decisions and rugby philosophy decisions at their door. I think our players are good (getting old) but good (not excellent).

I ask you all this question and answer as honestly as possible....

When was the last time that the Irish coaches managed to get more than 70% of this groups potential out of them?

Kidney and his coaching ticket have really run this team in to the ground I feel.