Ireland vs South Africa pre-match talk and squad announcements.

Scrumdown wrote:It would benefit Ireland if individuals such as odriscoll, darcy, ogara and oconnel were encouraged to look for contracts abroad by the time they reach their 30's.

It seems to me that they, along with the high quality foreign players at each of the provinces are clogging up the pathways for young irish talent, and preventing Ireland from developing real strength in depth.

It was interesting that when the nzru provinces announced their squads for next year's super 15 tournament, 50 had never played super rugby before. Ireland province players such as howlett, laulala and afoa have long been confined to New Zealand history.

Steve Hansen therefore has 50 new faces to consider for international honours.

Declan Kidney has hardly 50 players to choose from in total.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - it annoys me to see you in particular accept mediocrity just to defend Kidney's reign.

profitius wrote:

Sin é wrote:
This is Wayne Smith's assessment:

Ireland
Declan Kidney had been able to transfer the drive and passion of Leinster, Munster and even Ulster into the national team. He coached Munster with a passion, but the national team is deteriorating. Players are ageing and Kidney is struggling to find the replacements. Ireland finished where they deserved to. Yes, they were without O’Driscoll throughout and O’Connell for the latter part of the Six Nations, but those two cannot be so far off retirement. What then?

Wales
Warren Gatland has a clear selection strategy based on size and speed. It is curious that several of these players have come through an unsuccessful under-20 team, but Gatland is obviously picking out the right ones. North, Cuthbert, Priestland, Davies and Halfpenny are going to be around for years. They are big players, physically and athletically. Now they need to start beating southern hemisphere sides on a regular basis.

Looks like Gatland has hit Wales' 'Golden Generation'.

Gatland has a clear plan of the way he wants his teams to play. The players must fit into his system. Kidney picks what he thinks are the best players and expect them to perform. The players are confused, BOD even admitted that a few weeks back.

Kidney is out of his depth at this level. We need a new coach with a 21st century gameplan and an injection of youth.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - it annoys me to see you in particular accept mediocrity just to defend Kidney's reign.

In France, they call them "La génération des O" -- Brian O'Driscoll, Ronan O'Gara and Paul O'Connell.

In Ireland, few within the Irish squad dared to term the guiding trio of 21st century Irish rugby the "golden generation" -- but everyone else did.

Even Declan Kidney was unable to avoid the catch-all tag ascribed to this unprecedented harvest of rugby class, upon which this talented triptych have, until now, stamped their perennial imprint.

But their reign is not impervious to the march of time. As much as their collective 101 years, 343 international Test caps and 527 provincial appearances reflects an inordinate collection of experience, in the same breath the longevity of their service hints at the curtain calls soon to come.

Although it now seems virtually certain that O'Connell will heave his damaged frame upon the Lansdowne Road sward this Saturday evening, with O'Driscoll already struck down, the tension within the frayed Irish support has been palpable.

For sure, O'Gara's decline in the international pecking order has been confirmed well before this autumn, but his absence from the starting line-up this Saturday, particularly if O'Connell also joins O'Driscoll on the sidelines, would have caused palpitations among an unsettled squad, whose confidence is still being scooped from the floor following the Hamilton humiliation last summer.

Especially since it's recalled that the last time an Irish team lined out against higher tier opposition without at least one member of this terrific threesome was in the last century.

Little wonder that former Ireland manager Paul McNaughton was moved to observe that the arrival of O'Driscoll, O'Connell and O'Gara in almost cosmic coincidence could not but have propelled its national team to such unprecedented and consistent achievement.

"As a nation, we haven't had players as good as O'Connell, O'Driscoll and O'Gara on the same team," he noted.

Historically, from Kyle to Ward, and Gibson to Geoghegan, Ireland could create genius, but rarely did it coalesce or co-exist with colleagues and structures of sufficient quality.

But, as this trio's once shining embers start to dwindle, a warning echo from, ironically, another 'O', the less celebrated, but no less effective Donncha O'Callaghan, is instructive.

When he prepared for last year's World Cup summit with Wales, four years on from the doomed campaign when the golden generation should have been at its psychological and physical peak, his words reeked of regret.

Little did he know that crushing last-eight defeat to Wales in Wellington would expose the wounds to further salty incision. "The big thing for our group of lads is to maybe do something to separate ourselves from Irish teams that have gone before," O'Callaghan said before that fateful quarter-final 13 months ago.

"For the group of players who people talk about in the last few years as being a 'golden generation', what have we done that's separated us from the rest? If you're honest, not a whole lot."

A year on and Ireland are once more scrapping to remain within the top eight of the world rankings. Sustained achievement has eluded this country's most successful coterie of players, who, aside from that exhaustively compiled series in 2009, have become more familiar as the underdogs who can bite the best on their day.

Harsh critics might suggest that 'twas ever thus for Irish rugby teams; the provincial successes notwithstanding, the golden generation have remained unfulfilled in green and several boxes remain unticked for these players.

A win -- anywhere -- against New Zealand. A win in South Africa; although it might help if the two Unions developed the sort of relationship that might lead to a rare invite there. A last-four place in the World Cup.

And now? When the stage is bare and the veterans walk away into the sunset? Transition is a dirty word in professional sport, but the issue will be forced upon Ireland, as Andrew Trimble readily concedes.

"When Brian is not fit, it's a massive blow to the side," he admits. "We have to make do. Brian is going to have to be replaced. He'll never be replaced unless someone is given an opportunity. Now is the chance for someone else to step up."

Ireland's sluggishness to change is often illusory; statistically, neither Kidney or his predecessor Eddie O'Sullivan are as archly conservative as it may have seemed to a frustrated public.

uncertain

Often, the best players were better than the rest even when out of form. With O'Driscoll absent for some time, O'Connell's fitness always uncertain and O'Gara no longer a guaranteed starter for his province or country, the rest need to step up.

"You can be worried about it, whether the guys coming in could be a liability, that guys aren't tried and trusted in certain positions," adds Trimble.

"But we should look at it as giving guys an opportunity.

"There's nothing we can do about players who are missing. We have to get on with it."

O'Connell's prophetic words following the Grand Slam triumph -- "tough times are coming" -- reverberate with an eerie echo when viewed through the prisms of Ireland's struggles in recent times.

Whether times will get even tougher depends on how effectively the slowly yielding powers of the golden generation can be supplanted by their less gilded successors.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Has anyone said anything unfairly negative about Zebo?

The fact he hasn't played much at 15 is just the way it

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote: losing big characters from the squad like Jerry Flannery for instance, can lessen the togethernesss of the group.

Losing big characters like Jerry is considerable less stressful for those of us who worry about rampant yellow cards!

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Has anyone said anything unfairly negative about Zebo?

The fact he hasn't played much at 15 is just the way it

There was an incredible amount of bitching that he was selected to go to NZ and it was all down to Kidney's Munster bias apparently, nothing to do with his talent.

God help him if he puts a toe wrong on Saturday.

I notice you are staying very quiet about Murray! And as for Earls .... the abuse he has get is way over the top and really undeserved. Then Peter O'Mahony is only selected because he is from Munster.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote: losing big characters from the squad like Jerry Flannery for instance, can lessen the togethernesss of the group.

Losing big characters like Jerry is considerable less stressful for those of us who worry about rampant yellow cards!

You must be frantic about Heaslip then -

Jerry Flannery 1 YC with Munster. 1 Yellow for Ireland (which resulted in a suspension).

Heslip - 7 YCs for Leinster. 1 Red card for Ireland (which resulted in a suspension).

Sin é wrote:ah well Fly, you know how mud sticks. For instance, Pete tried has convinced everyone that Denis Leamy had a poor disciplinary record (he doesn't) and it went completely unnoticed that Heaslip has a horrendous one !

By the way, JF was not yellow carded in the French match for 'the kick' - he got his one and only YC against NZ back in 2006 down there and was not cited as he was playing the following week.

Taylorman wrote:50 new sxv players next year for NZ sides alone? Did not know that.

Even at 10 a franchise thats a lot and they must be replacing 50 players from this year assuming squads are the same number.

Wonder what the % of those going are- mainly fringe players who didnt cut it or a few seasoned AB's retiring/ going offshore. Still a big number...

SecretFly wrote:I'll decide what it was Sin é, and it wasn't a cheap shot... You see how you actually crave the divide you pretend to be frustrated by? You adore the idea that there is a 'them' to fight off, and an 'us' to protect.

I joke about Leinster players and criticise them in equal measure (Heaslip amongst them...but you already know that). You can't cheap-shot a player you like, you can humourously remember his more zealous personality.

But again I repeat, when you can openly talk about Irish players without refering to the colour of their shirt then I'll be more ready to listen to any moral highground comments directed at me. But then, you always evade that one because we both know I'm right about the deep love you have for the inter-Provincial feuds.

Notch wrote:I think the funny thing about this is Sin says Wales are having their own golden era, because I was about to post the opposite.

In many ways, Gatlands options are very limited. He has much less choice in the outhalf position than Declan Kidney and a starting 10 who would probably not make the matchday squads of England, Ireland and France. He has nothing in the way of genuine world class players like O'Driscoll or O'Connell, that we were able to build a team around. He has a very good scrummaging tighthead to work with, but a lack of quality in the rest of the tight five. His backrow options are good without being genuinely imposing. Of course they have some hugely talented players. But its no 'golden era' of Welsh Rugby in terms of the player pool.

Its what he's done with the players he has that is genuinely impressive. Guys like Lydiate and Priestland are winning plaudits because he's getting the best out of what they offer. They have limitations to their games, they are not world class players. But he's got them doing their job very well. Getting the best out of them and the rest of the players.

SecretFly wrote:I'll decide what it was Sin é, and it wasn't a cheap shot... You see how you actually crave the divide you pretend to be frustrated by? You adore the idea that there is a 'them' to fight off, and an 'us' to protect.

I joke about Leinster players and criticise them in equal measure (Heaslip amongst them...but you already know that). You can't cheap-shot a player you like, you can humourously remember his more zealous personality.

But again I repeat, when you can openly talk about Irish players without refering to the colour of their shirt then I'll be more ready to listen to any moral highground comments directed at me. But then, you always evade that one because we both know I'm right about the deep love you have for the inter-Provincial feuds.

rodders wrote:So anyways.....anyone else looking forward to Saturday?.....

BelfastDickVet wrote:Folks this thread is taking a serious turn for the worse, and we are not giving a great account of ourselves, bickering between ourselves. Lets leave Wales out of this, we should be discussing the Ireland and South African match, the squads, potential tactics, comparing players and what not.

Too many Irish threads lately have become quite negative with provincial bickering, I myself am an ulster fan but I could give two fecks what province a particular player comes from as long as they take the chance given to them. Ok our national team is going through a bit of a trough right not but peaks are never too far away, yes various things may have to change before that happens but they aren't going to happen before this match, so lets try and get back to discussing it, and involving our South African counter parts on here as I bet this pretty crappy reading for them too.

Scrumdown wrote:

Notch wrote:I think the funny thing about this is Sin says Wales are having their own golden era, because I was about to post the opposite.

In many ways, Gatlands options are very limited. He has much less choice in the outhalf position than Declan Kidney and a starting 10 who would probably not make the matchday squads of England, Ireland and France. He has nothing in the way of genuine world class players like O'Driscoll or O'Connell, that we were able to build a team around. He has a very good scrummaging tighthead to work with, but a lack of quality in the rest of the tight five. His backrow options are good without being genuinely imposing. Of course they have some hugely talented players. But its no 'golden era' of Welsh Rugby in terms of the player pool.

Its what he's done with the players he has that is genuinely impressive. Guys like Lydiate and Priestland are winning plaudits because he's getting the best out of what they offer. They have limitations to their games, they are not world class players. But he's got them doing their job very well. Getting the best out of them and the rest of the players.

Delusional

Gibson wrote:ROG and O Connell wont be missed. BOD will. Big time.

Watch us dip for a while. Although, having said that, we wont have to dip too far.

rodders wrote:

BelfastDickVet wrote:Folks this thread is taking a serious turn for the worse, and we are not giving a great account of ourselves, bickering between ourselves. Lets leave Wales out of this, we should be discussing the Ireland and South African match, the squads, potential tactics, comparing players and what not.

Too many Irish threads lately have become quite negative with provincial bickering, I myself am an ulster fan but I could give two fecks what province a particular player comes from as long as they take the chance given to them. Ok our national team is going through a bit of a trough right not but peaks are never too far away, yes various things may have to change before that happens but they aren't going to happen before this match, so lets try and get back to discussing it, and involving our South African counter parts on here as I bet this pretty crappy reading for them too.

Take a bow Dick. Well said sir .

The Great Aukster wrote:Can't believe Kidney would seriously pick Zebo to play fullback!

I've always thought that Zebo would make a great fullback as he has all the raw materials, but he hasn't played there at a high enough level yet. He is still learning the game and his defensive positioning is still questionable on the wing never mind the wider scope of fullback. To drop him in at 15 against the Boks is a desperate act of a floundering coach bereft of ideas, who doesn't care one iota for the welfare of a promising young player.

Maybe Kidney is staking out his scapegoat to ensure the media tigers don't pick up his scent if they come hunting after the game ala EOS with Bowe in France 06? Let's hope Zebo isn't hung out to dry for three years like Bowe was.

Would any other International coach on the planet select an inexperienced player and then play them out of position just to see what they're really made of? DK has undoubtedly lost it, and we can only hope Zebo learns fast - very fast.

Notch wrote:I hate that you can't have a civil conversation on 606v2. You have an opinion and people act like you've kicked a child in the teeth. Jeez.

BelfastDickVet wrote:

Gibson wrote:ROG and O Connell wont be missed. BOD will. Big time.

Watch us dip for a while. Although, having said that, we wont have to dip too far.

Yeah this is very true, cave and earls are very good players in their own right but they don't have the same sort of commanding presence on the pitch, they don't have his leadership. Also both aren't as defensively strong as bod. Lets just hope who ever gets the 13 jersey stands tall and doesn't let the thought of them filling bods shoes get too them.