Am I the only one who thinks Welsh rugby is not in crisis?

Seen a couple of posts that have already said that Welsh rugby is now in crisis. No doubt these were the same people who claimed post 2012 6n that we were world beaters.

I am not making excuses for yesterday. The performance was not good enough. There probably was too may picks that w ere made on past form and not present form. However this is the way this management team has selected its squads since it took charge.

However the result should not come as too much of a shock, if you are not close to 100% against any top 10 team you are going to struggle to win test matches. Alot has been made of the passion and commitment of the argies yesterday, I think that is the LEAST spirited performance I have seen from them. They looked less like a bunch of screaming banchies that we have seen in the past and more controlled. It was the most intelligent game I have seen them play against us, they played the game in our half and starved us of the ball. Then when the opportunity came they upped the tempo grabbed their two well worked tries and sat back and saw the game out.

I think people should just put it down to a bad day at the office. Congratulate the argies on a very astute performance (and learn the lesson to not underestimate themagain) and look forward to a much needed backlash against Samoa on Friday

Gavin

Just want to make a few points.

Firstly a bad day at the office doesn't happen 10 times in 11 years (1st AI game) or 50% of the time (argy record) IMHO it's the welsh mindset that is the problem, but I wont go into that now.

Secondly yes I am coming to the conclusion the game in south wales is in crisis, the regions are all but failing, the best welsh players have to leave to earn money and compete in europe, and the premiership is all but dead. The FAW/footballing trust has done a great job in gaining momentum with a huge amount of ex rugby fans post regionalism, and Swansea, Cardiff and Newport county have never been stronger, and better supported. Also participation numbers in junior football has doubled in the last 10 years, I'm guessing junior rugby participation has dropped although I can't prove that, and ultimately the game will become 2nd fiddle to football as soon as the national team claims any sort of semi success.

Is there something culturally wrong with Welsh rugby?

Are the regions working, after all you have players leaving for France? Is the idolatry in Wales leading to players thinking the shirt is theirs forever. I mean, I have seen welsh players referred to as 'super stars' on several occasions. Are the players believing the hype to such an extent that their performances are complacent? Indeed do the coaches believe the player hype too leading them to select out of form players? Even players who can't get a starting berth at their club.

There are many questions around the Welsh set-up that the management need to address. Maybe the management needs a fresh face.

The exact opposite EG4E they need their old face, the guy with the experience of actual top level coaching, unlike Mcbride and Howley who walked into their jobs for being in favour.

The regions were never really going to work, certainly for a certain generation of fan due to the way they were set up.

The regions and neither could the clubs match the French clubs wages, how many of the English could if they came knocking?

I wouldnt disagree that the mindset was definitely a factor in yesterdays performance. But I think to totally focus on how poor we were yesterday is disrespectful to a very good Argentina side.

As for the game generally I would disagree in part. Certainly the blues and the dragons are struggling. The dragons may well end up as a development region and the blues not much better. You have two very young packs there with only a few signs of them having the quality. Yes our best players are leaving, but this only gives Welsh boys more opportunities to prove themselves. People like Samson Lee, Rhys Patchell, Tom Prydie are examples of this. However the regions are solowly trying to be ran more and more like businesses. If this means we go through short term pain for long term gain then so be it. However in my opinion this wont have too much of an impact on the national team so long as management pick on form.

If you look at the scarlets their attendances are up, and the ospreys too. Granted they will need to improve further and this will only come with some much needed success.

You make a comparison with football, Swansea are a fine example of how any sporting organisation should be ran I will give you that, however this success has been ten years in the making and the club were close to being wound up before the buy out. Cardiff City also have had the backing of benefactors such as sam hamman and now the melaysians backing them. As well as having tremendous support in across the valleys. Newport County would have gone bust last season if not for their trip to Wembley, and this year have had a good start. Yet only managed to pull in 1800 to their last home game despite being top of the league.

You then also make the point of grass roots rugby. In the years since I have been playing senior rugby, I have seen the introduction of a new layer of rugby in Wales (Division 6) as well as more participation up north. Im sure the junior numbers are not dwindling, but again I cant prove that.

My point is that yes all is not rosy at the moment, the game is going through a tough time much like the rest of the economy,but as I said it is short term pain for long term gain IMO.

englandglory4ever wrote:Is there something culturally wrong with Welsh rugby?

Are the regions working, after all you have players leaving for France? Is the idolatry in Wales leading to players thinking the shirt is theirs forever. I mean, I have seen welsh players referred to as 'super stars' on several occasions. Are the players believing the hype to such an extent that their performances are complacent? Indeed do the coaches believe the player hype too leading them to select out of form players? Even players who can't get a starting berth at their club.

There are many questions around the Welsh set-up that the management need to address. Maybe the management needs a fresh face.

I think you make a valid point there EG4E. We place players on pedestals, rely on individuals. There must be a degree of complacency. However as I said the set up we have now with 20 plus players playing abroad plus 4x15 berths week in week out players get a chance to shine. All we need now is a management structure who recognise and are ruthless enough to pick on form

To say welsh rugby is in crisis is ridiculous. Your starting XV is the best in Europe and on its day could compete with the top three in the world.
I'm no expert on Welsh rugby and this is no relation to current form but any country that can produce the team below is far from crisis. I won't lie the Wales-Argentina game was dismal and Wales looked lathargic, lacklustre and one dimensional but every team has a bad game at one point.
1. Jenkins
2. Rees
3. Jones
4. Charteris
5. AW Jones
6. Lydiate
7. Warburton
8. Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Biggar
11. Cuthbert
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. North
15. Halfpenny

Maybe it is time for the WRU to say anybody not playing in the RaboDirectPro12 won't be considered for selection that way Welsh fans will see Welsh players and the coaches will see more of them too.

Just regarding the football teams mate, it doesn't really matter how they have become succesfull the fact they are is enough to hurt rugby. Swansea and Cardiff both hold crowds of 20k plus every other week. Infact I'd say it'd be a fair summation that now professional football is watched in the terraces throughout the year more than professional rugby in wales, MS bumper days are the only thing keeping rugby competitive in the numbers game.

I see your point about short term pain for long term gain, but I think youve got it on it's head. The regions were initially packed with quality as all our players were condenced into 5 regions, then condenced again to 4, we were in semi finals and finals of comps but then we started to lose fans, players and performances deteriorated, so we have seen a short term gain and are at the start of long term pain, unless the WRU have the foresight to condence again to 1 or 2 regions and we can have another 5 years of competitiveness before the game is gone!!!

I only make comparisons with football as it is the biggest threat to rugby, and the way the WRU have treated such a large amount of the public football is thriving.

I think the generation of fans overlooked for the next to support the regions has failed, the WRU didn't predict other sports (football, athletics, league) to capitalise as they have and the fans they werent interested in have taken the next generation with them (to a degree)

The WRU care about one thing now, brand WRU. Performances just need to be good enough to create superstars like Roberts and Warburton to promote the clothing, kit, coaching courses etc and the odd bumper payday for all involved in too many AI games!!!!

The reason rugby is dying in wales is squarely at the feet of the WRU!!!

The reason why my point about how they became successful is valid is because if the malaysians were to pull out of Cardiff City for example, they may suffer a fall from grace that could see them fall down the leagues again....and I wonder how many would go to see them in league 2? Likewise for Swansea if they were to go down (unlikely) how much would missing out on the new tv money next season hurt them? My point is the reason why football is doing well is down to success and in Cardiffs case that has been bankrolled by wealthy businessmen, something which happened at the regions but now they are trying to live within their means, something which will take time to work. Also you go on about football, did they even sell out the CCS for the last international game?

I will give you one thing mind - the junior football is well organised. My lad plays at the new FAW centre in Newport and every sunday between 9-11 all the newport mini teams play 5 a side and rotate so they play three games each.

However I still dont think that the game is in crisis and will come good however bluesman I see that your opinion is different. I'm not quite as pessimistic as you.

Plus in certain aspects football is helping rugby. Newport County playing out of RP means that Rodney Parade Ltd have access to another stream of income both for the ground rent and beer sales on match days.

"I'm no expert on Welsh rugby" - 123456789, Heed your words. If you don't follow the game in Wales, on what basis are you disagreeing with those (including me) who think the game is clearly in crisis? It's not in crisis because Wales lost to Argentina; that is just one game, and Argentina played far better and well done to them.

The game is in crisis because a lot of the problems in the game in Wales are coming home to roost against the backdrop of a severe economic downturn, which does not help the game at all. The plain fact is, in what has now been a professional age for almost two decades, crowds are poor and the product -- the quality of the rugby itself, on a week to week basis -- is generally poor and fails to attract the crowds. Although Wales has done well at national level (when it can put out its best team), the regional game is in a dire state.

Some players going to France or England is okay -- it gives other players a chance. But if more players choose to play elsewhere, the regional squads will get weaker. There are lots of problems that many posters have commented on (including me) regarding the state of the game in Wales, and I'm not going to repeat them all here.

For those who don't think there is a crisis, take a hard look at the regions and ask yourself why the likes of PWC were asked to produce a report ... Just because Wales has some outstanding individual rugby players doesn't mean the game isn't in real trouble.

123456789 wrote:To say welsh rugby is in crisis is ridiculous. Your starting XV is the best in Europe and on its day could compete with the top three in the world.
I'm no expert on Welsh rugby and this is no relation to current form but any country that can produce the team below is far from crisis. I won't lie the Wales-Argentina game was dismal and Wales looked lathargic, lacklustre and one dimensional but every team has a bad game at one point.
1. Jenkins
2. Rees
3. Jones
4. Charteris
5. AW Jones
6. Lydiate
7. Warburton
8. Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Biggar
11. Cuthbert
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. North
15. Halfpenny

Maybe it is time for the WRU to say anybody not playing in the RaboDirectPro12 won't be considered for selection that way Welsh fans will see Welsh players and the coaches will see more of them too.

Wondered how long until we got the "on there day...).

nathan, After our loss to Argentina, we probably won't hear it before our match against NZ this year

Welsh rugby isn't in crisis, but it's not in a healthy state.

The Rabo league is an awful competition, that doesn't inspire fans to actually go and watch live rugby, when you compare it to the Avivs or Top 14. The Blues and Dragons are struggling in the league. The regions are finding life in Europe too much. 1 win from 8 games so far and every region all but out after just 2 rounds! The Ospreys and Blues are massively weaker than just 2 seasons ago. The Dragons are pretty much the worst team in the top leagues, though the Scarlets are doing well in the Rabies and continue to produce talent.

Its incredible to think that a team that won a grand slam 7 months ago were largely tipped on another post to lose to Argentina. I had a bet on Argentina by 6-10 points, but cashed in on the crazy 11 point handicap lead the bookies gave Argentina. The reason why confidence from many fans was low, is probably down to the general low feeling around welsh rugby, what with more stars leaving Wales for France.

I just think that people aren't convinced Wales are the real deal. We have a few world class players, but although we won the grand slam, we aren't dominating northern hemisphere rugby. We won the slam in 08 but then finished 4th, 3 years running before another slam. I think it shows how mediocre national rugby is in the northern hemisphere. Italy and Scotland are woeful and there's nothing between the other 4. Also Wales have never threatened the southern hemisphere. We've won 3 grand slams in 8 years but haven't had the dominance that England had in their golden spell. They regularly beat SH teams and on their own patch too, not to mention a world cup win. I think Wales have a serious lack of depth.

"Welsh rugby isn't in crisis, but it's not in a healthy state. " -- I suppose it depends on how some people interpret "crisis". The current situation certainly meets the dictionary definition of that word (for those who are not sure of the definition, look it up), so maybe some people are in denial.

The financial position of all the regions is very weak. There is universal agreement about the state of the Rabo as a competition -- some games are very intense, but many aren't. The people with the power to improve the situation have some very important decisions to make, sooner rather than later.

123456789 wrote:To say welsh rugby is in crisis is ridiculous. Your starting XV is the best in Europe and on its day could compete with the top three in the world.
I'm no expert on Welsh rugby and this is no relation to current form but any country that can produce the team below is far from crisis. I won't lie the Wales-Argentina game was dismal and Wales looked lathargic, lacklustre and one dimensional but every team has a bad game at one point.
1. Jenkins
2. Rees
3. Jones
4. Charteris
5. AW Jones
6. Lydiate
7. Warburton
8. Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Biggar
11. Cuthbert
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. North
15. Halfpenny

Maybe it is time for the WRU to say anybody not playing in the RaboDirectPro12 won't be considered for selection that way Welsh fans will see Welsh players and the coaches will see more of them too.

I actually don't think that is that close to Wales' best team, especially on recent form.

I think Welsh fans aren't just referring to this one match, or the national team. The regions haven't been great and certainly not consistent so far this season. Scarlets are very variable, Ospreys doing well but still look like they might not make the knockout stages of the HEC, Dragons as ever struggle to compete especially losing a player like Lydiate and tge Blues, in the HEC matches I've seen anyway and reputedly in other matches, look terrible. Add in player exodus and a poor performance and people start to focus on the negatives

I am trying to understand why some believe Welsh rugby is in trouble.

Firstly, lets look at the stats in the pro era.

Wales have only beaten Australia Twice in 19 tests, SA once in 17 tests and Not beaten NZ in 12 tests.

Their record against Argentina has been 8 wins and 5 losses during the pro era.

Their dominance over Scotland has become greater, Wales has been catching up to Ireland who had quite the dominance over Wales in the earlier pro era, similar to their situation with England.

Overall Wales have improved their performances over England and Ireland and has not progressed against the big three SH nations.

It may hurt to hear this. But maybe Wales just don't have the depth and population to reach a hgher ceiling on a consistent basis?

Biltong wrote:It may hurt to hear this. But maybe Wales just don't have the depth and population to reach a hgher ceiling on a consistent basis?

Ouch!!!

Stamp on a man's nadgers when he is down why don't you.

Just like Mr White said in Quantum of Solace, "our people are everywhere".

Wales will increase their depth as long as the exodus continues.

TOP 14: Best Welsh players.

PRO 12: Some Welsh players and most of the youngsters.

AVIVA: Backup experienced players and other young internationals.

Henson
Stephen Jones
Nicky Robinson
Andy Powell
Craig Mitchell
Steve "och aye" Shingler
Craig Mitchell
Rhys Gill
Dwayne Peel

[quote="RogerLewis"]Just like Mr White said in Quantum of Solace, "our people are everywhere".

Wales will increase their depth as long as the exodus continues.

TOP 14: Best Welsh players.

I thought most welsh posters were saying that the French exports were more 'mature'(polite) players. Only Charteris perhaps has played well recently for Wales.

It maybe in the future the case that it will be 'The Best Welsh players' but not until Lydiate,JD,North etc. decide to leave.

thebluesmancometh wrote:The FAW/footballing trust has done a great job in gaining momentum with a huge amount of ex rugby fans post regionalism, and Swansea, Cardiff and Newport county have never been stronger, and better supported. Also participation numbers in junior football has doubled in the last 10 years.

I'm guilty (strongly) of participating in the English/Welsh bickering, but i might be having a moment of clarity and i'm sure i'll get ragged on for this, but IF Welsh rugby is indecline to football significantly then that would be quite disasterous for the NH in my opinion. Could be worth seeing if growth in wendyball has come from a greater population of Wales? or seeing if there's a greater percentage of the population now playing wendyball? If so, then something is going wrong.

All the home nations cut our teeth on each other before taking on the SH teams, and the more we play each other at test level, the better. The better we all are, and higher level we play at directly impacts other NH teams performance in the IRB rankings through game play . I personally think this is just a lul, the class displayed in the international side is without dispute, and this is probabley just a low patch - i watched the RC all the way through and thought Argentina would be a banana skin for someone. England went through it after the last RWC and it was definatley bad times to see, but we seem to be getting past it, and i'm sure Wales will as well. To be selfish about it, a better Wales means better competition for England to play yearly (and vice versa)

The trend towards wendyball is worrying though, more so than a once off bad home performace.

I am amazed that noone see's a problem, it's always going to be the top level that shows it last, and from grass roots participation of juniors, to the welsh prem and the regions we are crumbling!!!!

It's only a matter of time before young psomising players go to the top 14 or Aviva at an age where they can be converted to said nationality, it'll be like the huge problem we had with league all over again.

But then as long as brand WRU have the odd pretty face to sell their t shirts, joggers mugs and other tat to make record profits what do they care!!!

Am I the only one who thinks Welsh rugby is not in crisis?

You're an individual.

Alaister

I have done some work for the welsh football trust and the participation in juniors has more than doubled in the last 10 years, and really hit a steep curve in the last 3, the WRU have driven half of the country to football and it's pretty easy to see why.

Foreign owners mean 1 thing, no politics, no garbage, just attempted success. As fragile as the success might be it raises the popularity of the sport, and although the national team are still in the dulldrums it's only a matter of time before the newly implimented talent systems start producing a prem quality national team which can be semi succesfull. Thats all it'd take to turn the MS to a round ball as opposed to oval, the fanbase is ready their just waiting for the players to do something!!!

Biltong, Like some others, you focus on the results of the national team (good or bad), but it's the state of the overall game in Wales that merits the description "crisis":

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=crisis+definition&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

Financially, the regions are suffering and the crowds are far too low. The rugby product at regional level is poor and the regions are so underfunded they cannot compete in the HC. That's just a few issues.

Even if Wales were to win another Slam next year, the top is not sustainable if the foundations are so weak!

AlastairW wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:The FAW/footballing trust has done a great job in gaining momentum with a huge amount of ex rugby fans post regionalism, and Swansea, Cardiff and Newport county have never been stronger, and better supported. Also participation numbers in junior football has doubled in the last 10 years.

I'm guilty (strongly) of participating in the English/Welsh bickering, but i might be having a moment of clarity and i'm sure i'll get ragged on for this, but IF Welsh rugby is indecline to football significantly then that would be quite disasterous for the NH in my opinion. Could be worth seeing if growth in wendyball has come from a greater population of Wales? or seeing if there's a greater percentage of the population now playing wendyball? If so, then something is going wrong.

Sorry pal, but this is an age-old cliche that people in Wales have only ever handled an egg shaped ball, and that we haven't heard of football, cricket, boxing, cage fighting, bodybuilding, netball, hockey, etc... You get the drift. Club football has always dominated and was the game to play while I was growing up. It still would be as far as I know. Even the good rugby producing areas of Newport started to churn out the dominant football teams. Rugby participation has increased, as have the number of clubs, albeit mostly just senior pub level teams. So I don't believe Cardiff and Swansea are really going to have an effect on rugby in Wales.

Ospreydragon, what is the setup of Welsh rugby?

Is it played in all schools, or just some?

How many amateur clubs are there in Wales?

What is the route for a promising youngsters?

From my understanding the regions were introduced because the clubs weren't sustainable at professional level?

Oh, and thanks for the educational lesson as to what crisis means.

It's not part of the curriculum to play sport in public schools Biltong, unless they have a history of an academy i:e; Hartridge has a cricket and football academy. Back in the 60's and 70's it was a good rugby academy. It was all done via the schools back then. However PE teachers encourage sports participation, the girls hockey/netball, the lads rugby/football. In some cases you get some footballers being introduced to rugby for the first time in year 7. So some schools won't be able to raise a team due to numbers and due to having not enough players. The schools in the upper class areas have always had strong rugby teams but seem to have spiralled downwards since the last time I played them. There are still some strong rugby schools about i:e, Cowbridge, Brynteg. Then you have the college's; Cross Keys, Neath-Port Talbot, Bridgend, Swansea, Coleg Sir Gar. There are 8 in total in the league I think but I could be wrong.

According to the IRB we have 314 clubs; http://www.irb.com//unions/union=11000003/index.html.

And see here; http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/development/index.php. It's similar to what SA do. We now have 'elite pathways' that filter our junior players at U15 level, they play at rugby festivals (equalivilent to Craven week in SA?) and are picked up by WRU scouts to be put into Regional sqauds. The squads face each other and are then cut down, then act as selection for Wales U16.

Yes you are correct about the clubs. Don't worry, the WRU and PWC report have clearly stated we will not return to that format.

Thanks for the info Morgan, in that case I think perhaps there is some over reaction on the part of welsh supporters.

The reality is that countries (all of us) have a general pecking order.

Something like this

NZ


SA and OZ
England and France
Wales and Ireland


Scotland



etc.

There will be times where teams go through highs or lows. Currently we are in a three year low, since 2009 we have barely won 60% of our games. Wales were on a high last year, and the same with 2005 and 2008. Yet it seems their cycles are shorter than other nations.

It is like a sinus wave, that goes up and down, some has a higher frequency than others, and some has bigger highs and bigger lows than others.

But I beleive there is a general pecking order, which we upset dependant on having great periods or poor periods.


The only way a country can change that general pecking order is to dramatically overhaul their infrastructures and feeder systems. NZ are top of the pile, because as far as I can see, everything possible is done from top to bottom to stay number 1. Most other countries (definitely SA) are undermining their potential with antiquated systems, and poor administrators.

Morgannwg wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:The FAW/footballing trust has done a great job in gaining momentum with a huge amount of ex rugby fans post regionalism, and Swansea, Cardiff and Newport county have never been stronger, and better supported. Also participation numbers in junior football has doubled in the last 10 years.

I'm guilty (strongly) of participating in the English/Welsh bickering, but i might be having a moment of clarity and i'm sure i'll get ragged on for this, but IF Welsh rugby is indecline to football significantly then that would be quite disasterous for the NH in my opinion. Could be worth seeing if growth in wendyball has come from a greater population of Wales? or seeing if there's a greater percentage of the population now playing wendyball? If so, then something is going wrong.

Sorry pal, but this is an age-old cliche that people in Wales have only ever handled an egg shaped ball, and that we haven't heard of football, cricket, boxing, cage fighting, bodybuilding, netball, hockey, etc... You get the drift. Club football has always dominated and was the game to play while I was growing up. It still would be as far as I know. Even the good rugby producing areas of Newport started to churn out the dominant football teams. Rugby participation has increased, as have the number of clubs, albeit mostly just senior pub level teams. So I don't believe Cardiff and Swansea are really going to have an effect on rugby in Wales.

I'll have to take your word on that Morgan, a year in Llanelli as a kid gives me no in depth knowledge of any social/sporting issues across the Severn. I guess my main point was that a strong Wales is good for every NH country, same goes for a strong Scotland & Ireland as well. If we aren't playing each other at the highest level and tearing strips off each other, i'd worry more as we'd all stagnate. Most Welshman (& women for that matter) that i've met or worked with over here have been staunch Rugby fans, which of course leads to the opinion that Rugby is by far the lead sport in Wales. I guess not!

Football is same over here as the big draw, and tbh seeing some of the antics the English players and fans get up too i'm more than happy for them to keep being the biggest draw in the country, it keeps the utter ballbags out of Rugby, and we already have more than enough of them at times.

Biltong

Schoolos are now able to decide, some schools play rugby, others don't. And for numerous reasons.

PE teachers are these days more diverse, lots of other nationality students go to the Unis in wales as there are some small advantages, and UWIC has become very well renowned. These students qualify and get jobs in wales but cannot apply something a welsh equivilant could. The old days PE teachers were ex players, or local guys and rugby was played in every school, today with national curriculums (UK wide) sport is played much more varied and kids get much more tasters than specialise! Some schools play and some don't, there are no official numbers.

There are lots of clubs, and more than ever before, but unfortunately the majority of these are all at the bottom end of the senior game, a new Div 6 has been introduced but will in no way aid youth development!!!

Youngster go through a new route as of last season (FINALLY)

Begins at mini level (tag rugby) (although the WRU has just introduced a younger age version, but again is a brand WRU thing and squarely a money making procedure)

Schools generally start to give kids tasters at age 9/10.

Club and School rugby is all thats available until age 13/14 now, then there is a 12 week development course for the 'elite' (now selected loosely by PE teachers, and DO's)

Next year is Dewar sheild, but again mates of the DO's who coach at this level pick their own squad from the dev programme the previous year (or just the kids they like at their own clubs)

Thats all done regionally, each 'region' has 3/4 teams at Dewar and a national comp ensues.

Next level is 'regional' selection, the best of the best (or most developed) get selected to an U16's team, then U18's (or if not good enough U17's development team)

Then on to the academies of each region and pro rugby.

Sadly there are about 50 flaws to the way our system is implimented by amateurs from the good old days, so things like club rugby regularly die out at certain age groups (U16's are a nightmare, most clubs can't get a team together) Also coaches arent good enough, selection policy is wrong, DO's IMHO arent the right people.

The regions were a short term fix to a long term problem, the idea was if we went regional we would have all our player power condensed and would dominate at club and national level within 10 years... oh dear, mimicing the SH hasn't quite worked for us!!!

Bluesman, Wales isn't the only country who could improve their system.

AlastairW wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:The FAW/footballing trust has done a great job in gaining momentum with a huge amount of ex rugby fans post regionalism, and Swansea, Cardiff and Newport county have never been stronger, and better supported. Also participation numbers in junior football has doubled in the last 10 years.

I'm guilty (strongly) of participating in the English/Welsh bickering, but i might be having a moment of clarity and i'm sure i'll get ragged on for this, but IF Welsh rugby is indecline to football significantly then that would be quite disasterous for the NH in my opinion. Could be worth seeing if growth in wendyball has come from a greater population of Wales? or seeing if there's a greater percentage of the population now playing wendyball? If so, then something is going wrong.

Sorry pal, but this is an age-old cliche that people in Wales have only ever handled an egg shaped ball, and that we haven't heard of football, cricket, boxing, cage fighting, bodybuilding, netball, hockey, etc... You get the drift. Club football has always dominated and was the game to play while I was growing up. It still would be as far as I know. Even the good rugby producing areas of Newport started to churn out the dominant football teams. Rugby participation has increased, as have the number of clubs, albeit mostly just senior pub level teams. So I don't believe Cardiff and Swansea are really going to have an effect on rugby in Wales.

I'll have to take your word on that Morgan, a year in Llanelli as a kid gives me no in depth knowledge of any social/sporting issues across the Severn. I guess my main point was that a strong Wales is good for every NH country, same goes for a strong Scotland & Ireland as well. If we aren't playing each other at the highest level and tearing strips off each other, i'd worry more as we'd all stagnate. Most Welshman (& women for that matter) that i've met or worked with over here have been staunch Rugby fans, which of course leads to the opinion that Rugby is by far the lead sport in Wales. I guess not!

Football is same over here as the big draw, and tbh seeing some of the antics the English players and fans get up too i'm more than happy for them to keep being the biggest draw in the country, it keeps the utter ballbags out of Rugby, and we already have more than enough of them at times.

Llanelli is definitely rugby dominant and always has been. They're rugby mad down that way. Yes I'm sure you have met a lot of Welsh who love watching Wales play. But would they have had much knowledge of the Regional game? That I doubt. I bet they had a few things to say about the Premier League though. We're known for our rugby over other sports and a Wales game would be seen as an event and the whole of Wales flocks to Cardiff on a saturday morning. I did think the Arg game would be a sell-out, we had more crowd numbers for the world cup warm-up against them.

The system is sound ( to a degree) its just the way it's implimented in Wales thats the problem!!!

Ive seen the elite pathway in Ireland, England and parts of SA (well went to a festival week outside of capetown while on holiday and met a DO named Keith) and it's amazing that when you meet people in every other nation they are very passionate about the kids and sport, here in wales they are far more passionate about how much they hate other coaches, and people involved in the game!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:The system is sound ( to a degree) its just the way it's implimented in Wales thats the problem!!!

Ive seen the elite pathway in Ireland, England and parts of SA (well went to a festival week outside of capetown while on holiday and met a DO named Keith) and it's amazing that when you meet people in every other nation they are very passionate about the kids and sport, here in wales they are far more passionate about how much they hate other coaches, and people involved in the game!!

Have you read some of the Irish threads lately?

And Biltong can give you chapter and verse on the Bulls vs the rest slanging matches on a Saffa forum.

Yes, especially the Bulls and Stormers, it is pue unadulterated hate between those two Franchises' supporters.

That's why I prefer not to chat on South African websites.

Biltong, I wasn't suggesting you didn't know what "crisis" meant Some posters seem to be in denial about the state of the pro game in Wales, which is definitely in crisis.

I don't know what the situation is in schools now (too long since I left). In the 70s, virtually all schools played rugby and it was part of the curriculum, with the likes of none other than JJ Williams teaching rugby in my school. I know that many schools have sold off playing fields; I've read that sport in general has reduced hours on the curriculum, and that rugby has to compete with other sports. Jonathon Davies has repeatedly asked for greater funding at schools/grass roots level, and my impression is from things I've read that the situation is nowhere near as strong as it was in the 60s/70s, when Welsh club rugby was extremely strong.

Morganwg has given some info. I haven't counted the number of amateur clubs these days, but there are regular reports of former great clubs like Pontypool struggling to put out a side. Too many clubs still pay players to play amateur rugby ...

The WRU, under Moffet, changed to a regional setup from 2003, because there wasn't enough talent to support 8 - 10 teams and because it couldn't fund that many. But there are many disaffected supporters (especially in Pontypridd/Bridgend, after the demise of the 5th region, the Celtic Warriors) and many supporters feel alienated because most regions are essentially superclubs. Welsh rugby is rooted in villages and towns, based around clubs, and superclubs have turned off many potential supporters.

Moffet estimated that regions would have to average at least 8000 spectators per game to make a region sustainable. As far as I'm aware, all the regions are making losses and are in debt. Hence the recently imposed salary cap at 3.2 mil, players leaving for France, etc. The game is dying on its feet at pro level and if things do not improve it seems inevitable that more regions will fold. The WRU needs to work with the regions to sort out the myriad problems and find ways to improve the rugby/competitions on offer and improve marketing, with an emphasis on rewarding those who go and pay to watch regional rugby. The Rabo Pro 12 league must also become consistently intense, which can only be possibly achieved by making only the top 6 teams (regardless of country) qualify for the HC.

Ospreydragon, Wales then have a similar problem to what small towns in rural areas have in South Africa. i need to find the letter. But a resident of a small town in the northern Freestate sent a letter to the Freestate rugby union and effectively complained about excatly what you are talking about. The smaller towns are becoming ignored and removed from the sense of ownership of the Cheetahs as they never play outside Bloemfontein.

The letter was even pulblished in the local paper in Bloemfontein.

What was really good about it was the fact that the President of the Cheetahs actually answered back.

I will see whether I can find the twoletters.

Here is the letter written by Brendon Shields to the President of Cheetahs Rugby.

As a passionate Cheetahs supporter let me start by once more reminding everyone that a ‘supporter’ is called such as by definition it should be there for a team when times are tough – not just when things are smooth.  So here I am, offering my support in tough times.

Harold my concern is that the Freestate Rugby Union has alienated the rest of the Freestate province in its approach to the hosting of games, the marketing of the game and the scouting of new players.

I am from Bethlehem, which is but one town where a passionate support for the Cheetahs is being eroded by your unions’ lack of outreach and understanding of the costs involved supporting a rugby team. There are at least 10 more towns that will tell the same story and if counted together can add at least 5000 more seats to every home game.  People from towns like mine are happy to drive 3 hours to a game and return late at night; pay the fuel and toll fees and risk running into farm animals – if they feel like “their” team appreciates their support. But for the past few years it’s been the opposite. The Cheetahs won 3 Curie Cups in a row and saw full house stadiums and then you guys decided that you no longer care for the ‘platteland’ when it comes to marketing.

With the advent of the internet and the abundance of information around, not to mention the luxury of being able to see all the games live wherever they happen, your union must understand that the distance between Bloemfontein for me as a supporter of the Cheetahs is the same as the distance to Brisbane to support the Reds. I travel to my nearest pub to support both teams. So why do I still support the Cheetahs, who seem to throw games away willy nilly and especially on Saturday displayed a ‘don’t care’ attitude on the field?  No passion, no guts, and now even no enterprise! Why drive to Bloemfontein to sit in a half empty stadium and support a team who are now happy playing the ‘we are a small union’ card?

I ask myself when last has a Cheetah team played a game in Bethlehem? If memory serves correctly it was a Freestate development team (with a very young Jannie de Beer) who last represented the union in a town that’s widely expected to support the Cheetahs. Our rugby field is now owned by Freestate Stars who have done well to make it a proper venue. Why not throw us a carrot and offer to host a Super Rugby game here next year, instead of once more feeding the over-fed Bloemfontein crowd of 5000 who are spoilt for choice and as a result are taking for granted their easy access to Super Rugby games? Bring the game to us once every 3 years and I promise you we will make a bigger effort to get to Bloem, because it will feel like ‘our’ team again.

Marketing is one thing, but here in Bethlehem our players are more likely to join the Bulls or the Lions these days as the Freestate Union seem disinterested. You would rather bring in players from Boland than have a look locally, and so the disconnect between fans and the union grows ever wider.

What is the solution? A good start is to host one big game here in the next 2 years and to start marketing it right now. I will help with this. The second solution is for the union to negotiate on our behalf some great hotel rates and bus fares to and from Bloemfontein for those who purchase match tickets at venues outside of Bloemfontein. If my friends and I can jump in a car and stay at a proper hotel for R600 for the night (which currently is the rate per person per night sharing) then our trip will cost us R1200 and is worth doing at least once a month. We will stay over and contribute not only to the team but to the economy of the city. European teams do this with the Heineken Cup and it’s great to see thousands of fans travel to every venue to support their team. The Cheetahs maybe assume that your fans are all wealthy and can make the effort – but this is wrong. I have R500 to spend on the Cheetahs per month – it’s up to you to find a way to make me spend that money going to the stadium as opposed to going to the local pub and spending money that could be spent to keep the next Jan Serfontein at the union.

A kiwi friend living in Bethlehem remarked a while ago that he always gets the sense that more Bethlehem people support the Sharks due to the affiliation with Bismarck and Jannie and Francois. I look around me and cannot deny that you see less and less Cheetah supporting kids. Why would they if no Bethlehem players represent the Cheetahs and dad never travels to Bloemfontein to watch a game?

Embrace and reach out to the platteland and we will help you fix the union. Simple as that.

To summarize my solutions:

1)      Work to get a match played in Bethlehem. We are the financial trading spot incorporating Senekal, Frankfort, Vrede, Ficksburg and Reitz. We will sell 10 000 tickets to this game, guaranteed.

2)      Negotiate travel discounts and accommodation packages for fans travelling to Bloemfontein from platteland towns to make it worth our while to stay over and not drive home after the game.

3)      Make a concerted effort to sign players from these towns as opposed to merely looking at Bloemfontein schools and importing whatever else you need from elsewhere.

Kind Regards,

Brendon Shields

Cheetahs wil uitreik na ondersteuners
November 2, 2012
Posted by Morné
So drie weke terug het ons ‘n artikel geplaas wat Brendon Shields as ‘n brief aan Vrystaat Cheetahs se president, Harold Verster, geskryf het.  Verster het die brief gesien en dit belangrik genoeg gedink om te antwoord op die vrae wat gevra is.

Deur Susan Maré

DIE besturende direkteur van die Vrystaat-Cheetahs, Harold Verster, het op versoek van Vrystaat gereageer op Brendon Shields se betoog dat die platteland die Cheetahs kan bevorder. Vrystaat het Shields se betoog op Donderdag 18 November as hoofnuus op die sportblad aangebied. Vrystaat deel vandag graag Verster se reaksie met sy lesers.

Platteland naby aan Verster se hart

Die platteland lê my persoonlik na aan die hart, omdat ek op Vrede in die Noordoos-Vrystaat gebore is en tot standerd ses daar grootgeword het.
Ek het rugby gespeel en aan atletiek deelgeneem en baie van die dorpe en plekke in die Vrystaat tydens my laerskooljare besoek soos Bethlehem, Harri-smith, Kestell, Warden, Frankfort en die Riemland-wêreld. Daardie wêreld lê diep in my hart ek sal alles in my vermoë doen om Vrystaat-rugby se beeld en boodskap daar baie sterk uit te bou en te vestig.

Die afskeep van die platteland

Brendon Shields is bekommerd dat ons die platteland afskeep en nie genoeg doen om die Vrystaat-Cheetahs se beeld daar uit te bou nie.

In die eerste plek wil ek daarop wys die gedeeltes van Brandfort af en die res van die Vrystaat is eintlik onder die jurisdiksie van die Griffons-rugbyunie en dit is nie sonder meer maklik vir Vrystaat om rugbywedstryde daar te reël nie.

Ons het wel ’n baie goeie verstandhouding met ons vennoot, die Griffons, en ons sal probeer om in die volgende seisoen wanneer ons SuperRugby bemark ook meer bemarking in die Noord- en Noordoos-Vrystaat te doen. Ons moet ook dieselfde in die Noord-Kaap in die Griekwas se gebied doen.

Wedstryde op Bethlehem

Ons het per geleentheid wedstryde op Bethlehem aangebied en dit was baie suksesvol. Ek het self in die 1970’s daar gespeel en dit was aangenaam en lekker om saam met ons familie en vriende in daardie wêreld rondom die rugbyveld te kon kuier.

Talle spelers kom van die Oos-Vrystaat

Daar is talle toprugbyspelers wat van die Noordoos-Vrystaat kom en wat vir die Vrystaat gespeel het. Ons hoofafrigter, Naka Drotské, is van Senekal en so het talle Vrystaatse seuns soos Jannie en Bismarck du Plessis, Hendro Scholtz, Frederich Lombard, Dougie Heymans, Ruben Kruger, Steven Brink, Boela du Plooy, Anton Pitout, Piet van Zyl – om maar net enkeles te noem – uit daardie geweste na Bloemfontein gekom om vir die Vrystaat rugby te speel.

Dit is ’n baie goeie voorstel van Brendon om weer opnuut te kyk om ons beeld in daardie gebiede te vestig. Dit is so dat met die vertrek van Jannie en Bismarck en ander Vrystaters na die Sharks ons skade aangedoen is.

Baie van die ondersteuners in daardie gebied het hulle na die Sharks gevolg.

Ongelukkig kon ons Jannie en Bismarck nie meer bekostig nie weens die klein begroting waaroor die Vrystaat in vergelyking met die Sharks beskik.

Ons doen egter nou alles moontlik om ons topspelers hier te hou en daarom het ons langtermynkontrakte met Coenie Oosthuizen, Johan Goosen, Adriaan Strauss en ander sterre in ons geledere.

Rugbyprogram oormatig vol

Een van die groot probleme is die rugbyprogram wat so oormatig vol geword het dat Curriebeker-rugby tydens toetsrugby gespeel word en die toeskouers en ondersteuners dit moeilik vind om al die rugby te volg. Benewens dit kos rugby deesdae baie geld, veral vir plattelandse ondersteuners om na Bloemfontein en terug te reis.

Ons sal dus na nuwe strategieë kyk om ons plattelandse ondersteuners naby ons te hou en om ons beeld by hulle uit te bou en nuut te vestig.

Nuwe planne vir uitreik na platteland

Ons sal probeer om na die platteland uit te reik met die aanbied van gholfdae, kuieraande en ook die road shows wat ons na die plattelandse streek wil onderneem.

Ek moet sê Brendon het ’n belangrike hartsnaar van my raakgetokkel, omdat Vrede diep in my siel lê en die Riemland deel van my lewe is.

Ek sal dus uit ’n persoonlike perspektief meer wil doen, maar ook uit ’n sake-oogpunt is dit noodsaaklik vir die Vrystaat-Cheetahs om opnuut sy beeld in daardie gebiede te vestig.

Met die boodskap ’n woord van dank aan Brendon dat hy ons opnuut laat dink het en ons sal ons bes doen om weer opnuut na die bemarkingsaksies te kyk.


.

I'll translate the highlights

Verster says he grew up in the rural areas so it is close to his heart. He adds that the north east towns fall under the Griffons hence itis virtually impossible for them to arrange matches there.

He basically thanks Brendon for waking them up and they promise to get more marketing done in those towns, find ways for their players to make appearances there in the form of Golfdays, rugby chat evenings etc.

One challenge he does say is keeoing top players, he says when players like Jannie du Plessis and his brother Bismarck du Plessis moved to the Sharks, the town's supporters changed allegiance to the Sharks, the problem for them is they don't have thefunds necessary to hold onto all their players

Essentially this letter seems to have made an impact on the Cheetah administration.

Perhaps one way to look at suggesting solutions.

Biltong!!!

Have you any idea how confusing it is to pop to the latest post on a thread about Welsh rugby and be confronted by a long post in Afrikaans????

Biltong, out of interest how far away from the Cheetahs home ground is Bethlehem mentioned in the letter? A long distance I'm guessing, knowing how big SA is? Because, believe it or not, the furtherst someone in my region (Gwent Dragons) can be from our home ground is about 20 miles! And there are still excuses that they're too far away or left out! If we can't get fans to feel 'connected' or part of the region when the furthest corners of the region is 20 miles then we're seriously in trouble. I don't think we'll ever manage it.

The Ospreys and Blues are similar distances to the furthest point from their coastal homes. But ironically the Scarlets have the biggest area but do get fans travelling 100+ miles. Nothing like in SA though I can imagine! How far do fans travel there?

MrsP wrote:Biltong!!!

Have you any idea how confusing it is to pop to the latest post on a thread about Welsh rugby and be confronted by a long post in Afrikaans????

Us Welsh are used to that sort of thing MrsP! Everything has to be sent out bilingually here in Wales and, even though I'm welsh born and bred, I don't read or speak welsh at all (unfortunately). Half the stuff that hits my desk is in a language I don't understand!

MrsP wrote:Biltong!!!

Have you any idea how confusing it is to pop to the latest post on a thread about Welsh rugby and be confronted by a long post in Afrikaans????

Griff wrote:Biltong, out of interest how far away from the Cheetahs home ground is Bethlehem mentioned in the letter? A long distance I'm guessing, knowing how big SA is? Because, believe it or not, the furtherst someone in my region (Gwent Dragons) can be from our home ground is about 20 miles! And there are still excuses that they're too far away or left out! If we can't get fans to feel 'connected' or part of the region when the furthest corners of the region is 20 miles then we're seriously in trouble. I don't think we'll ever manage it.

The Ospreys and Blues are similar distances to the furthest point from their coastal homes. But ironically the Scarlets have the biggest area but do get fans travelling 100+ miles. Nothing like in SA though I can imagine! How far do fans travel there?

It's a little over 200 kms.

I have mates who travel to Durban from Johannesburg, 550 kms to see support their teams.

Griff,

Same here in NI although we have more folks here who speak Cantonese than Gaelic! Not the point I know.

Mind you, to hear the way some folk go on about the players we have imported you would think that Afrikaans is our second language too!

Nope your not the only one, i don't think it's in a crisis,
a tough patch yes but no crisis.
The Western Mail is acting like Welsh rugby is dead, but just like all spiteful journalist they love to make all news bad.

Crikey! Big distances. That's why it's so frustrating here when we can't get things to work on a much smaller/closer scale. It should be the 1 rare occasion where being small is an advantage, yet for some reason we can't use it to our advantage.

MrsP wrote:

Mind you, to hear the way some folk go on about the players we have imported you would think that Afrikaans is our second language too!

You see MrsP, I am educating you, next time you walk into Ruan Pienaar. Say " goeie more Ruan my seun, fantastiese wedstryd saterdag"

Good morning Ruan my son, fantastic game on Saturday.