Wales vs Samoa KO 19:30 Fri 16th Nov - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

WALES V Samoa

Venue: Millennium Stadium Cardiff Date: Friday, 16 November Kick-off: 19:30 GMT

Coverage: Live on BBC One Wales & online; live on S4C; live commentary on BBC Radio Wales & online; live commentary on Radio Cymru

Seeing as no one has started a thread yet I thought I would.

Enjoy the discussion.

Leigh Halfpenny
Alex Cuthbert
Ashley Beck
Jamie Roberts
George North
Dan Biggar
Mike Phillips
Paul James
Richard Hibbard
Aaron Jarvis
Bradley Davies
Ian Evans
Ryan Jones (Capt)
Justin Tipuric
Toby Faletau

REPLACEMENTS:
Ken Owens, Gethin Jenkins, Scott Andrews, Luke Charteris, Sam Warburton, Tavis Knoyle, Rhys Priestland, Scott Williams

Samoa:
F Autagavaia (Northland)
P Perez (Eastern Province)
G Pisi (Northampton)
P Williams (Stade Francais)
D Lemi (Worcester, captain)
T Pisi (Suntory)
K Fotuali'i (Ospreys)
S Taulafo (Wasps)
O Avei (Bordeaux-Begles)
C Johnston (Toulouse)
D Leo (Perpignan)
T Paulo (North Harbour)
O Treviranus (London Irish)
M Fa'asavalu (Harlequins)
T Tuifua (Newcastle)

Replacements: T Paulo (Clermont Auvergne), V Afatia (Agen), J Johnston (Harlequins), F Lemalu (Mont de Marsan), T Fomai (Hawke's Bay), J Su'a (Tasman), J Leota (Sale), R Lilomaiava (Laulii).

[Luckless Pedestrian]

That must have been the interview I missed on Wales Today, Bedford.

[HERSH]

Don't drop Sam again he might smash!

[bedfordwelsh]

That must have been the interview I missed on Wales Today, Bedford.

Yh didnt catch what programee it was on but was on one of the news clips.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I quoted him further up the thread - it does sound like it's going to take a man-of-the-match performance from Tipuric to oust Warburton from the side to face the All Blacks, and even then it wouldn't guarantee him his place.

I honestly don't get it. Are they afraid they'll make him cry?

[bedfordwelsh]

It looks like one of the back three will lose out to allow Sam back in. I wouldn't even bet that Howley is secretly hoping that one of the 3 have appor game which will make bringing him back in easier.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Well for now I'm just hoping for a win, however it comes!

[bedfordwelsh]

YOu and mew both though I am more confident with this team than the one I expected.

[glamorganalun]

If Wales are to have a remote chance of winning against the AB's we must hammer Samoa today to prevent the out of form players getting back into the team. I still thing this team selection could be improved with Charteris replacing Davies, Preistland and Andrews sent back to their clubs and firing Howley.

Off to the game, enjoy (I hope).

[glamorganalun]

[HERSH]

I really wish I could go but I've been given tickets for Twickers tomorrow.

Enjoy, but not too much I hope.

[wales606]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20344489

"Jones captains the team for a record 29th time against the Islanders after coming off the bench as Wales lost 26-12 against the Pumas ."


Yet more brilliant journalism from the BBC - I wish that Ryan had been fit last week!

[HERSH]

Boy you could cut the atmos in here today with a knife, the pressure is really on Wales tonight how will the respond?

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Enjoy everybody

[gavstar]

"Hook is by far the most nautrally gifted player for Wales since Henson and yet he's never since 2008 been given a fair crack of the whip at 10."

What are his natural gifts (as a flyhalf)?

Defending the line
Decision making
Attacking options
Organising an attacking line
Constructing the link between forwards and backs play
Dead ball kicking
Out of hand kicking
Defending
Tackling
Ability to change the game plan
Consistency (i.e. the ability to play at a high level for most of the game)

Ahem NO to the above...........


So what are his natural gifts?

Does he run (or did he used to run) at every opportunity mostly headless chicken into areas where he normally got turned over?
Can he spot a gap in broken play?
Has he a fantastic handoff?

Ahem YES to the above

So was (is) he a destructive runner, who can spot an opportunity to create chances? Yes

Is he an all round modern international 10? No

you've said it all fhf, not in a nutshell, more a mug full !!!! i have always said putting hook on the bench has kept better players in other positions out of the team.
also agree with whoever said hook will be off the radar next season.

paddy power on talk sport today, samoa to win.

[nobbled]

Good luck to Wales. Difficult game but reckon you'll win comfortably. Always awkward with the PI teams - the expectation is always that you should win by a large margin, not always realistic - but it means that if you only just beat them the knives are out! It's a hiding to nothing.
A decent display should put a few ghosts from last week to rest and see you move on and up.
Sorry if it seems I'm "disrespecting" Samoa, but I think Wales are the better team.
Enjoy boyos.

[nobbled]

I really wish I could go but I've been given tickets for Twickers tomorrow.

Enjoy, but not too much I hope.

Might see you there - I'll stand you a beer if I catch up with you. I'll be with the Range Rover with the inflatable pig - sounds unlikely but it's true!

[Pot Hale]

Why is this match only on BBC Wales - is it not of interest to the wider BBC viewership in the UK?

[flyhalffactory]

Scott Williams had a solid, if unspectacular game, but for my money seriously lacks peripheral vision, which isn't a great quality for a centre. As for regional bias, you might recall my original team, posted way back on another thread (which you also didn't agree with by the way) included Jonathan Davies, Leigh Halfpenny, Alex Cuthbert, Liam Williams, Samson Lee and Aaron shingler.
I was just picking who I considered to be the best side available. The coaches were wrong, they know they were wrong.

Apologies for that mate...... tad too reactive in my comments.

For my money I seem to recall many many posters called Jon Davies "a carthorse", "no vision", "crashball thug centre", and that he wasnt fit enough to lace the boots of James Hook the "sublimely talented centre" only a few seasons back and yet here we are 2012 and the welsh contingent are bemoaning your most creative centre is injured whist admitting that Hook just cant cut it consistently at centre on the international stage. I think Williams is at that stage on the international arena, personally whilst he currently is regarded as a defensive centre he can and does make destructive runs

Purely unbiased of course .......... I believe that the spine of your side lacks balance, the locks under pressure could give pens away, your 8 whilst he makes many tackles has to stop the opposing player frim offloading the ball, and as Roberts was taken off with a bashed bonce you would need a centre who can cover his derriere against some hard-nosed opposition and I just dont think thats Becks forte.

I think we both want the same thing, you are a passionate countryman, and me as your passionate neighbour up north

That was a good point somebody made earlier about your 'best boy' Turnbull. He nor McCusker/Knoyle were in a position to get called into the squad so how about admitting you were wrong for a change? For someone who is supposedly neutral those specs ain't half Scarlet tinted .

As for JD, he had a fair few weaknesses when he was inexperienced at 13 at a high level and people pointed them out. They have a right to do so. They were correct. There is no doubting that he has ironed out the majority of those weaknesses now and is probably our best backline player. Completely agree with you on Hook. I was patient with him I'll admit and it took me until those world cup games to not want to see him in a Wales jersey for a while. I think the decision to leave him out is about right as Priest also covers 15 (but a lot better). Scott Williams didn't do much wrong. He still has a lot to improve on as does Beck, so I guess they're giving Beck the chance and it's not a bad call. He looked good down in Aus but that was in his regular position at 12. Perhaps he and Roberts may interchange tomorrow night. I also don't understand or agree your criticism's of Toby Faletau. He didn't put a foot wrong on Sat and deserves his place. That's a good back-row we have put out. If Evans is injured I would like to see Shingler brought on to the bench with Charteris starting.

Oh here we go again the student not reading the paper and failing the exam.......
Turnbull - Why he should have been considered for selection!!.......Firstly there was an unbiased Os poster on here who said the stats revealed that he had one of the best tackle ratio of any the welsh back three players this season, secondly before he got injured was pushing Lydiate for that blindeside spot a few seasons ago. Thirdly he incurred a bad knee injury after the 5th minute but still put in more tackles than Faletau or Warburton now that speaks volumes, finally who would you have selected then as back row cover?. As far as McC well I never really advocated that he should be in but also said who were the better options
JD - What were his weaknesses?, even two seasons back he was a try machine with subtle balance of both pegs, most posters stated even two years that he was the choice to combo with Roberts in midfield, except for certain ahem posters who said that he wasnt fit to lace Hooks boots at 13. Beck was good down in Oz and I think in open play he is an excellent centre, I just think that with an opposing bruising tight 8/9/10/13 axis with a slower crash ball centre (Roberts) you need a naturally defensive centre

Finally if you think that Faletau didnt put a foot wrong then I would suggest you actually watch the game tonight, he dropped the ball twice and even tho he made quite a few tackles rarely did the opposing player stay clamped.... in fact if you watch his "tackle" that was easily offloaded for the start of the Pumas second try you might realise that comments of "he didnt put a foot wrong" beggars belief (except when you say it of course)

[HERSH]

It will be online.

[thebluesmancometh]

flyhalf

Mate if your going to be condescending toward people try not to go about it with such fundamental errors, like calling Turnbull back 3!!

I don't agree Falatau was poor, he was the best starter in red by a mile! If thats what you are saying, he wasn't perfect, but certainly the best welsh player!

JD was slated as a crash baller, and it was said in numerous places he wasn't going to work with Roberts... HE WORKED HSI BALLS OFF TO DEVELOP HIS GAME!!

[hugehandoff]

Argies...yes. That is partly due to the poor team selection by Howley and also the first game for Wales and that Argies had just played The Championship and were well prepared and looked a decent outfit.

This time Wales look stronger and having had a nasty wake up call will not be caught out again. Samoa are a good side but have not had all the quality matches the Argies had and therefore I believe Wales will win by 10-15.

[thebluesmancometh]

Thats a bit more optimism than I like, please lose the 1 in front of each number.

[Ozzy3213]

Whilst I appreciate this is a essentially a Welsh thread, this is a massive game for Samoa as well. There are a number of reasons for this, not least the fact that if they can win, and other results go their way, then potentially they could end up 8th in the IRB rankings and get themselves into the second seeds pot for the RWC draw.

They also need to start taking RC and 6N's teams scalps as often as is possible in order to put pressure on the IRB to assist them with improving their international set up and domestic structures.

They are one of my favourite teams in the international arena and I would really love to see them be successful.

[flyhalffactory]

flyhalf

Mate if your going to be condescending toward people try not to go about it with such fundamental errors, like calling Turnbull back 3!!

I don't agree Falatau was poor, he was the best starter in red by a mile! If thats what you are saying, he wasn't perfect, but certainly the best welsh player!

JD was slated as a crash baller, and it was said in numerous places he wasn't going to work with Roberts... HE WORKED HSI BALLS OFF TO 2DEVELOP HIS GAME!!

Bluesman
My retort was in a direct reply to this comment
"That was a good point somebody made earlier about your 'best boy' Turnbull. He nor McCusker/Knoyle were in a position to get called into the squad so how about admitting you were wrong for a change". The lad is insinutating that I have some regional bias when in fact I backed up all my comments. Its not about been right or wrong we all have observations and opinions.... this is a forum after all. Maybe you would have ignored the juvenile comments (which I do more often than not especially when he comes onto our Scottish posts and loads bullets then runs.) or maybe you would have replied in the same vein as myself

Fundamental error!
Also I played in the back row as a blindside for the best part of 20 yrs and very often was called a back 3 player...... where is the fundamental error?

Finally JD where or when has it said he wasnt going to be complimentary to Roberts...... never ever read that except with some posters on this site (or its previous site) and that usually was to promote Hook as a partner to Roberts , I can only recall (since the Welsh tour to NZ where they both put in 20 mins of awesome midfield rugby) reviews that they are natural foils for each other. His awkward running style (shades of Michael Johnsons awkward upright running stance) perhaps to some posters suggested he was a crash ball centre...... however that would raise eyebrows to outsiders who observed his progression with Regan King, JD always had subtle balnce running off both pegs, very fast, good hands, and the ability to learn of proper outside centres like King..... hence he was never a crash ball centre to the people who actually watched him. He has worked his socks off I agree but his playing style hasnt fundamentally changed, and I still think he should be a 12 rather than a 13

[majesticimperialman]

I agree with the Welsh fans on here this is a game Wales should win i repeat (SHOULD) win.

But what if, if Wales do not win tonight. If Samoa beat Wales with the same points that Argentina did. How will that affect Wales IRB world rankins?

Will Wales stay as they are ( in ) the top 8. Or will they drop out of the top 8 all together?

So there is an enomous amount of presure NOT too lose tonight.

Good luck to Wales tonight any way.

[maestegmafia]

FHF mate ignore him...!

I've been reading some of the rubbish he's been posting and he is on the constant wind up.!

[Morgannwg]

Scott Williams had a solid, if unspectacular game, but for my money seriously lacks peripheral vision, which isn't a great quality for a centre. As for regional bias, you might recall my original team, posted way back on another thread (which you also didn't agree with by the way) included Jonathan Davies, Leigh Halfpenny, Alex Cuthbert, Liam Williams, Samson Lee and Aaron shingler.
I was just picking who I considered to be the best side available. The coaches were wrong, they know they were wrong.

Apologies for that mate...... tad too reactive in my comments.

For my money I seem to recall many many posters called Jon Davies "a carthorse", "no vision", "crashball thug centre", and that he wasnt fit enough to lace the boots of James Hook the "sublimely talented centre" only a few seasons back and yet here we are 2012 and the welsh contingent are bemoaning your most creative centre is injured whist admitting that Hook just cant cut it consistently at centre on the international stage. I think Williams is at that stage on the international arena, personally whilst he currently is regarded as a defensive centre he can and does make destructive runs

Purely unbiased of course .......... I believe that the spine of your side lacks balance, the locks under pressure could give pens away, your 8 whilst he makes many tackles has to stop the opposing player frim offloading the ball, and as Roberts was taken off with a bashed bonce you would need a centre who can cover his derriere against some hard-nosed opposition and I just dont think thats Becks forte.

I think we both want the same thing, you are a passionate countryman, and me as your passionate neighbour up north

That was a good point somebody made earlier about your 'best boy' Turnbull. He nor McCusker/Knoyle were in a position to get called into the squad so how about admitting you were wrong for a change? For someone who is supposedly neutral those specs ain't half Scarlet tinted .

As for JD, he had a fair few weaknesses when he was inexperienced at 13 at a high level and people pointed them out. They have a right to do so. They were correct. There is no doubting that he has ironed out the majority of those weaknesses now and is probably our best backline player. Completely agree with you on Hook. I was patient with him I'll admit and it took me until those world cup games to not want to see him in a Wales jersey for a while. I think the decision to leave him out is about right as Priest also covers 15 (but a lot better). Scott Williams didn't do much wrong. He still has a lot to improve on as does Beck, so I guess they're giving Beck the chance and it's not a bad call. He looked good down in Aus but that was in his regular position at 12. Perhaps he and Roberts may interchange tomorrow night. I also don't understand or agree your criticism's of Toby Faletau. He didn't put a foot wrong on Sat and deserves his place. That's a good back-row we have put out. If Evans is injured I would like to see Shingler brought on to the bench with Charteris starting.

Oh here we go again the student not reading the paper and failing the exam.......
Turnbull - Why he should have been considered for selection!!.......Firstly there was an unbiased Os poster on here who said the stats revealed that he had one of the best tackle ratio of any the welsh back three players this season, secondly before he got injured was pushing Lydiate for that blindeside spot a few seasons ago. Thirdly he incurred a bad knee injury after the 5th minute but still put in more tackles than Faletau or Warburton now that speaks volumes, finally who would you have selected then as back row cover?. As far as McC well I never really advocated that he should be in but also said who were the better options
JD - What were his weaknesses?, even two seasons back he was a try machine with subtle balance of both pegs, most posters stated even two years that he was the choice to combo with Roberts in midfield, except for certain ahem posters who said that he wasnt fit to lace Hooks boots at 13. Beck was good down in Oz and I think in open play he is an excellent centre, I just think that with an opposing bruising tight 8/9/10/13 axis with a slower crash ball centre (Roberts) you need a naturally defensive centre

Finally if you think that Faletau didnt put a foot wrong then I would suggest you actually watch the game tonight, he dropped the ball twice and even tho he made quite a few tackles rarely did the opposing player stay clamped.... in fact if you watch his "tackle" that was easily offloaded for the start of the Pumas second try you might realise that comments of "he didnt put a foot wrong" beggars belief (except when you say it of course)

Dearie me, here come the toys out of the pram again. I honestly thought you had put these days behind you!

Stats shmats. If you can't play, or play anonymously (as he did) then you aren't good enough. His performances weren't standing out enough against the best opposition leading up to this series. I probably would have picked McCusker and Lewis Evans. Turnbull getting selected to face the Barbarians was also a strange call. Shingler, imo, should have been the starting 6 on saturday. Turbull played and played himself out of contention. So what if he was carrying an injury; Jamie Roberts and Dan Lydiate carried their injuries throughout the 6 Nations/Summer tour. They managed not to be anonymous, didn't they?

On JD2's previous weaknesses, they were; poor 1v1 tackling in open space, passing was poor, vision was poor. He had plenty of good things in his game too. Even up until the RWC he was still slightly erratic (despite definite improvement), Williams could have taken his position but Davies kept on improving and kept the 13 jersey. JD2's form became better and less erratic and this continued. Even up to now where he's probably our best back, or one of them. Not sure who you're referring to, RE 'not face to lace Hook's boots.' It certainly wasn't me who said that. I've always stated Hook's best position are 12 or 10.

Finally, Faletau was the best forward playing last saturday, along with Jarvis. Probably the only two. Perhaps you should give Argentina more credit for carrying more effectively than us and offloading? Right so he dropped two balls, lets drop out best forward because that would make sense despite his overall good play. Clearly you can see a lot of peoples opinions differ to your own. They have a right to give their opinion so try, try not to be so condescending towards them.

[thebluesmancometh]

Me MM, I certainly am not!

If you'd like to reiterate some of my 'wind up's' though I will gladly respond!

[Ozzy3213]

The short answer to your question maj is that if Samoa win by less than 15 they will stay below Wlaes in the rankings, but more than 15 and they will go above them.

[thebluesmancometh]

Morg

Please stop being the voice of reason, it makes me want to change my mind

[flyhalffactory]

I just think that Ryan Jones currently is a better 8, Shingler is a better 6 and with Tuperic the balance will be better

8 Jones
7 Tuperic
6 Shingler

Is the better option in my opinion. Yours is not obviously...... we will never know with all the variables in 80 mins of rugby who will be right

If you want we can compare the stats, an injured (from the 5th min) Turnbull made more tackles than Faletua. If you rerun the Pumas second try watch how Toby tackles, he really should have nailed him. That speaks volumes for your "he didnt put a foot wrong". I believe he was the best welsh forward on the day but he was the spine of the side and was a poor second to Lobbe.

And as for condescending re-read your fits comments to me........... dont cloud that issue as usual you made the initial juvenile comments.

Argentina pack was much better than Wales man for man, but when you compare man v man the base of the spine i.e. the locks and the 8 were poor in comparison to their opponents

[majesticimperialman]

The short answer to your question maj is that if Samoa win by less than 15 they will stay below Wlaes in the rankings, but more than 15 and they will go above them.

Cheers for that. I was'nt sure what the out come would be,. what with Samoa being out of the top 8.

[thebluesmancometh]

Jones at 8 would lose any attacking threat from the set peice.

Shinglar at 6 would lose the muscle needed in the tight.

IMHO when you talk about a teams spine your thinking old school, in todays game much more of the work at the breakdown comes from the front row and flank.

Shinglar needs to develop a little more before he is ready, and IMHO Falatau isn't the complete article yet and needs time with better forwards around him to develop into the player he could be, a top 3 no. 8!!

[Casartelli]

Why do the Hook parade always state he's a good player because he had some good games in 2007/08? And why do they state another player played poorly when pointing out the flaws of Hook? RWC was the nail in his coffin. He'll stay in France and be forgotten by Wales within a season.

Some good games, he was superb throughout the 2008 GS winning year. Him and Jones at FH were fantastic for Wales. Hook was playing well because he was playing week in week out at 10 for his region. Then for some reason, the O's decided to play Biggar 10 with Hook at 12.

So when Hook was being played 10 for Wales, he had played very little game time there and it showed with his poor performances. He then was switched to centre where he was playing for the O's and for me, did a decent job there. However, he was clearly not a natural there and lost his place and quite rightly so.

So now he's gone to France, where he's playing week in week out at 10 and from what i';ve seen and heard he looks to be on the way back to where he once was and the first game back for Wales we play him centre as a replacement, then drop him for the next game while Preistland who is in terrible form takes up the bench spot. Hook is by far the most nautrally gifted player for Wales since Henson and yet he's never since 2008 been given a fair crack of the whip at 10.

Can't believe the Hook debate has continued to rumble through this thread. The point is long since moot. He showed his brilliance as a 10 early in his career and has now proved himself as a 10 in the toughest domestic league in world rugby. The fact that he could do an adequate job while being messed around out of position for so long is testament to his talent. Certainly the most naturally gifted Welsh player of his generation.

Tonight's game could go either way, by virtually any margin. Time to enjoy the chaos again.

[thebluesmancometh]

Just need to apologies to all before the game kicks off, I tend to vent when watching the game near the laptop, and as I am sat alone tonight (missus is at home in Dublin, and friends are all at the game) I will probably vent a lot, as anyone can testify if online during a Blues game.



I would normally pitty the dog, but the Male one was put down recently for old age and the female is not far behind him and way too fragile to kick.

[thebluesmancometh]

Good start to the show, the theme from 28 days later, we were certainly zombified last week!!!

[Taylorman]

Rewatched both the Samoa and Wales games and I think the Samoan attack just might pull one over the Welsh. They may get done up front but this Samoan side looks capable of making holes- the real secret to winning test matches these days.

Wales may just have flatlined a little recently and they cant afford to be complacent here. For Samoa it'll be a case of catch me if you can.

Good luck both sides. About to start...!

[thebluesmancometh]

As last week I think Howley is saying all the wrong things again, keep ball go through the phases, come on Howley that is so 10 years ago. They arent going to tire, they wont go missing late on.

HOWLEY JUST SHUT UP MATE, the self promoting, in the biz we do this, when I coached so and so we did this I used to we used to GET LOST YOU TURD!!

[thebluesmancometh]

Taylor man, in all fairness the Canadians defencive system and first up tackling was awfull!!!

[Biltong]

I would normally pitty the dog, but the Male one was put down recently for old age and the female is not far behind him and way too fragile to kick.

I'd be careful telling people your dog is too fragile to kick.

I was reported to the SPCA for saying I kicked my dog (which everyone knows I won't do as I am A sensitive guy).

[thebluesmancometh]

Oh I'd never kick the bitch, the male was a bugga and did way more damage to me than I ever could to him!!

The missus would get a slap before my bitch would

[Biltong]

[Taylorman]

Taylor man, in all fairness the Canadians defencive system and first up tackling was awfull!!!

Yes I know. Its just what you take from the match. These matches are typically fantastic matches- last year WCup time was great. One or two key moments on attack, or breaks will again seal this I feel.

[Biltong]

Well good luck to both teams, I would always support Samoa, but expect Wales to pull this one through.

So good luck to Wales for the sale of my Superbru prediction and good luck to Samoa cause I likes ya a lot.

[thebluesmancometh]

Ye can't argue with that, I'd love to say that Wales will ease to a 15 point win but I just don't see where the scores are coming from, unless Samoa's defence really deteriorates.

Few signs v Canada though that the discipline wasn't ideal, and that was under near no pressue at all from Canada.

[Knackeredknees]

The bbc are a Frak joke!!!!!!!!

Won't stream the game outside of wales?????

Great idea guys Friday night and the kids are in bed and I've nothing to watch

[thebluesmancometh]

I havnt predicted this one yet billtong, forgot. Gonna go Home win Yes I will predict the others post game.

[thebluesmancometh]

S4C knackered, or someone will have a link.

[Duty281]

Let's see how complacent Wales are this week - come on Samoa!

[thebluesmancometh]

Complacent? Don't disrespect the Argies, the Welsh werent complacent at all

[Knackeredknees]

On iPad so s4c won't work!! Need a link.......

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