Wales vs Samoa KO 19:30 Fri 16th Nov - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

WALES V Samoa

Venue: Millennium Stadium Cardiff Date: Friday, 16 November Kick-off: 19:30 GMT

Coverage: Live on BBC One Wales & online; live on S4C; live commentary on BBC Radio Wales & online; live commentary on Radio Cymru

Seeing as no one has started a thread yet I thought I would.

Enjoy the discussion.

Leigh Halfpenny
Alex Cuthbert
Ashley Beck
Jamie Roberts
George North
Dan Biggar
Mike Phillips
Paul James
Richard Hibbard
Aaron Jarvis
Bradley Davies
Ian Evans
Ryan Jones (Capt)
Justin Tipuric
Toby Faletau

REPLACEMENTS:
Ken Owens, Gethin Jenkins, Scott Andrews, Luke Charteris, Sam Warburton, Tavis Knoyle, Rhys Priestland, Scott Williams

Samoa:
F Autagavaia (Northland)
P Perez (Eastern Province)
G Pisi (Northampton)
P Williams (Stade Francais)
D Lemi (Worcester, captain)
T Pisi (Suntory)
K Fotuali'i (Ospreys)
S Taulafo (Wasps)
O Avei (Bordeaux-Begles)
C Johnston (Toulouse)
D Leo (Perpignan)
T Paulo (North Harbour)
O Treviranus (London Irish)
M Fa'asavalu (Harlequins)
T Tuifua (Newcastle)

Replacements: T Paulo (Clermont Auvergne), V Afatia (Agen), J Johnston (Harlequins), F Lemalu (Mont de Marsan), T Fomai (Hawke's Bay), J Su'a (Tasman), J Leota (Sale), R Lilomaiava (Laulii).

[RubyGuby]

JD was always the real deal, its peoples perceptions that have changed

[HERSH]

Nothing since 12:42pm?



Is this down to the fear of failure?

[gavstar]

samurai, you mentioned biggar being able to kick to touch from charteris in the lineout, i would love to see more touch kicking when we need it, but WE ARE NOT ALLOWED to kick to touch.

you can kick anywhere, to the opposition preferably, but not to touch, its not in the game plan.

if biggar starts a few safety touch kicks when nothing else is on , or puts us down field and its their lineout.....we wont challenge the lineout, we dont do challenging lineouts, thats not in the plan either!!!!!

[glamorganalun]

I think this team is too good to lose this game and we have a captain that will make changes to chase the game if Wales fall behind, I am worried about the bench with Preistland, Knoyle and worse of all Andrews and can't beleive Hook is not covering 10 says a lot.

Samoa are going to smiling at the the welsh selection

Spine of the side

8 - Faletau will face off against Tuifua 29 yrs old at 6ft 4in and 19.5st is going to test the young dragon, I think he has to step up this weeekend or Wales will be in trouble. Personally Ryan Jones should be at 8 with Shingle the better option at 6

2nd Row - Evans and Davies combo is very poor, no turn of speed, no industry at the loose or breadown, and Charteris having a great season with Perpignan on the bench??

Centres - Beck v Pisi...... Oh my the revolving door against a player who on his day can destroy the best of centres why oh why didnt Howley pick Beck at 12 where he wont be full on contact. Your best defensive centre Scott Williams out and your worst defensive centre starting

Poor selection Howley, "Horses For Courses" sir not rolling over due to public demand

Flyhalf:

Most of what you have stated I agree with you I would rather Charteris over Davies, I can't work out why Scott Williams lost his place but Beck is not a bad replacement. I stick with my statement Wales should still be too good for this game by dropping the half backs, R Jones coming in and captain (should be 8 and Shingler 6) Warburton dropping to where he should be on the bench, Hibbard instead of Rees and James replacing Gethin.

My biggest fear is all the out of form players will be back against the AB's.

I predicted Wales would lose against Argentina with Preistland, Turnbull, Knoyle (OK game) and McCuster covering second row (not his fault).

[munkian]

Ian Evans is a late finess worry apaprently - Charteris might be starting

Shingler can cover lock on the bench yeah ?

[RubyGuby]

Shingler can cover lock on the bench yeah ?

Hopefully

[wales606]

Ian Evans is a late finess worry apaprently - Charteris might be starting

Shingler can cover lock on the bench yeah ?

Not the best to have 2 completely new locks starting and no specialist on the bench. I hope Evans pulls through, or at least is fit for NZ.

[samuraidragon]

Looks like we only have two international standard second rows available to us. Hope neither gets injured.

[Morgannwg]

Scott Williams had a solid, if unspectacular game, but for my money seriously lacks peripheral vision, which isn't a great quality for a centre. As for regional bias, you might recall my original team, posted way back on another thread (which you also didn't agree with by the way) included Jonathan Davies, Leigh Halfpenny, Alex Cuthbert, Liam Williams, Samson Lee and Aaron shingler.
I was just picking who I considered to be the best side available. The coaches were wrong, they know they were wrong.

Apologies for that mate...... tad too reactive in my comments.

For my money I seem to recall many many posters called Jon Davies "a carthorse", "no vision", "crashball thug centre", and that he wasnt fit enough to lace the boots of James Hook the "sublimely talented centre" only a few seasons back and yet here we are 2012 and the welsh contingent are bemoaning your most creative centre is injured whist admitting that Hook just cant cut it consistently at centre on the international stage. I think Williams is at that stage on the international arena, personally whilst he currently is regarded as a defensive centre he can and does make destructive runs

Purely unbiased of course .......... I believe that the spine of your side lacks balance, the locks under pressure could give pens away, your 8 whilst he makes many tackles has to stop the opposing player frim offloading the ball, and as Roberts was taken off with a bashed bonce you would need a centre who can cover his derriere against some hard-nosed opposition and I just dont think thats Becks forte.

I think we both want the same thing, you are a passionate countryman, and me as your passionate neighbour up north

That was a good point somebody made earlier about your 'best boy' Turnbull. He nor McCusker/Knoyle were in a position to get called into the squad so how about admitting you were wrong for a change? For someone who is supposedly neutral those specs ain't half Scarlet tinted .

As for JD, he had a fair few weaknesses when he was inexperienced at 13 at a high level and people pointed them out. They have a right to do so. They were correct. There is no doubting that he has ironed out the majority of those weaknesses now and is probably our best backline player. Completely agree with you on Hook. I was patient with him I'll admit and it took me until those world cup games to not want to see him in a Wales jersey for a while. I think the decision to leave him out is about right as Priest also covers 15 (but a lot better). Scott Williams didn't do much wrong. He still has a lot to improve on as does Beck, so I guess they're giving Beck the chance and it's not a bad call. He looked good down in Aus but that was in his regular position at 12. Perhaps he and Roberts may interchange tomorrow night. I also don't understand or agree your criticism's of Toby Faletau. He didn't put a foot wrong on Sat and deserves his place. That's a good back-row we have put out. If Evans is injured I would like to see Shingler brought on to the bench with Charteris starting.

[overlordofthewest]

Im reasonably happy with the team. Like many Id have liked to see Williams retain his place and have Shingler in the mix but its not bad at all.
I've not been Biggers greatest fan over the last couple of years but he is on form for the Ospreys and we'll get the chance to see if he can cut it at international level. I still think he may be a good club player but will fail at a higher level but will be happy to be proved wrong.

[glamorganalun]

"He didn't put a foot wrong on Sat and deserves his place."

Except drop the ball at the start of the second half and turned it over to start the rot in the second half. I agreed with FHF regarding Faletau, I suspect he will improve with support from the other two back row forwards. I suspect R Jones will move to second row if one of the other two get injured or yellowed (B Davies) and hopefully Shingler to 6 from the bench if Evans is out.

[glamorganalun]

Im reasonably happy with the team. Like many Id have liked to see Williams retain his place and have Shingler in the mix but its not bad at all.
I've not been Biggers greatest fan over the last couple of years but he is on form for the Ospreys and we'll get the chance to see if he can cut it at international level. I still think he may be a good club player but will fail at a higher level but will be happy to be proved wrong.

The problem is the guy on the bench is not regional class the way he is playing.

[thebluesmancometh]

Anyone claiming Hook doesn't deserve to play for Wales is nuts!! He is a very talented player who has been abused by the welsh management.

Until he gets a full tournament/tour at 10 we'll never know how good he couldve been, IMHO he has everything Carter has except for the opportunity to cultivate and prove what he can do!

[gavstar]

i'm not nuts! and i dont think hook is our option on the bench. we need people to cover positions they can play.... rp 10 and better fb; also a centre who plays at centre. At fb and centre hook has been slated, he says he wants 10, so he's not on the bench, they like rp.

the hook debate has been done to death on here. world cup finally did it for him in many supporters opinion.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Can anyone give me a quotation of what Rob Howley said about Sam Warburton still being first-choice captain? I heard the headline on Wales Today but I was cooking and missed the article.

[flyhalffactory]

Anyone claiming Hook doesn't deserve to play for Wales is nuts!! He is a very talented player who has been abused by the welsh management.

Until he gets a full tournament/tour at 10 we'll never know how good he couldve been, IMHO he has everything Carter has except for the opportunity to cultivate and prove what he can do!

Amazing statement care to back it up

The only Welsh (sorry any) coach who played him consistently was Gareth Jenkins, so its not just the Welsh Management who therefore have abused him in your eyes

In his second season he more games at 10 for Wales than Jones/Robinson/Sweeney combined, and in the slam years he had as many games as Jones how much faith does the Welsh Management have to give him.

He was the Ospreys first choice until he literally lost 3 games on the bounce and even his fellow forwards lost faith in him, the Os management/coaches had to bring in a rookie called Biggar replaced him and the Os won the league with the youngster at 10, however like Wales they still found a spot for Hook at centre. I feel that has been one of your problems over the last 3-4 seasons the problem of "we have to play but.....where do we play Hook"

He is one of the most costly players on Perpignans books so they have to give him playing time, lets see what happens next season.
He was poor last weekend, not makin one penetrating break and its clear that the Welsh Management (including Mr G) dont believe he is worth a spot at 10, so its the age old issue and like the song.......... "how do you solve a problem like James Hooky"

[glamorganalun]

"He was poor last weekend"

How can you say Hook was poor last weekend, he hardly had the ball just like the other backs because Wales 9 and 10 kept kicking the ball away. I understand why Hook was dropped for this game as Biggar my be our only choice for the last game when Hook is not available. Unfortunately Preistland will be back for the AB game god help us is all I can say. The only positive I took out of last week's effort was the scrum in the first half i.e., until McCuster came on for AWJ it was then game set and match. Why Shingler was not picked ahead of the other two Scarlet's 6's is beyond me.

I am off to the game, hoping for a result like the last game I went to i.e., Scotland (sorry).

[thebluesmancometh]

fly

I enjoy a fairtale of skewed facts as much as the next guy, but I prefer to judge a player on what he does, can do and should do.

Firstly he never threw games at the O's, and the inexperienced Biggar had to be thrown in, they shoe horned in the 'wonderkid' and shoved Hook to 12 to try to encorporate both!

Winning a grand slam with Hook at 10 proves my point, doesn't disprove me!

Anyone who blames him for his world cup performances knows next to nothing about the game, you CANNOT expect a guy to perform at 10 in a world cup semi final if he hasn't played there for years!!!

Hook at the age 0f 22 had every attribute Carter had, he was near the complete package and just needed to be allowed to progress, through the O's crazy management, and the over dominance of the wales 10 shirt by Jones he's never been given the time to learn the craft correctly!

I know a lot of people think Henson is a wasted talent but IMHO Hook shouldve been one of the worlds best players, and if he were any other nationality would be!

[glamorganalun]

Spot on

[wales606]

B*llocks.

Hook has had more chances at 10 for Wales than a lot of quality OHs - Nicky Robinson and Biggar to name two.

Hook does have moments of brilliance and can win matches, but he is not a reliable 10 like Stephen Jones was - hence he wasn't trusted by the coaches because he couldn't be relied on under pressure.

The several Welsh coaches and the Ospreys coaches must have all allowed the next Dan Carter to slip away because they were all terrible at spotting talent - or more likely, they were right and Hook isn't up to the standards of an international 10.

Unfit to lace Toby Flood's boots let alone Dan Carters.

[thebluesmancometh]

Wales

You judging Hook early career to Jones end of career, and showing a huge lack of knowledge! Jones was criticised hugely in his early 20's, and still had weaknesses before going to France, only after he came back were people lauding him up! Thats why a young Hook was displacing him in the pecking order!!

Are you saying Welsh coaches are great? Never make a mistake, because a few days ago you were slating ones ability to see the obvious, and I bet over the last few seasons youve slated plenty more welsh managers ability to spot talent!!

[glamorganalun]

I seem to remember Hook playing 10 against Flood at the MS, charging him down and scoring a try and then went on to win the game for the MOTM performance, remember 2008 again against England who played 10 and MOTM. Yes as Blues stated he was poor in the semi final at the RWC but so was Steve Jones in fact he was worse but he also had no game time.

[wales606]

I think that coaches do make mistakes, but I don't think it likely that several welsh coaches and assistant coaches as well at the Ospreys management have all been wrong about Hook.

Hook had potential in '08, but failed to develop from that promise he showed - as has happened with a lot of Welsh players who have fallen by the wayside, which Hook is starting to do after the WC.

Hook should be considered a 10, and probably deserves the 3rd 10 spot at the moment. However, we have half a dozen better centres and similar in at FB. Hook's only advantage is his place kicking at FB which is why he was on the bench - because Preistland can not.

If Biggar delivers then Hook will be another step down the pecking order when we have a place kicking 10. Then there will be a lot of young talent wanting his place (Tovey, Patchell, Robling, Steffan Jones, Matthew Morgan)

[thebluesmancometh]

HOOK ISN'T A CENTRE OR FB, how can you judge him as a player based on positions he has only ever covered?!?!

How about we put Adam Jones at 8 and if he can't do it slam him for being a useless player!!!

So if Hook is 3rd choice now in your eyes and Biggar will make him drop down the pecking order who do you have as 1 and 2 in the ranking order of Wales 10?

[wales606]

Look at the team sheet for this week.

Preistland and Biggar are considered 1 and 2 for Wales. If Biggar proves himself no1, then Hook's bench option as a goal kicking fullback to replace 1/2p is useless - so we will pick specialist players like Preistland and Scott Williams (as happened this weekend)

[thebluesmancometh]

ROTATION! Thats exactly what Howley said, Hook hasn't been dropped for being poo, he was poo but at a position that he isn't!

How about we play 1/2p at centre, will he be a bad player if he can't perform there as well?

[flyhalffactory]

B*llocks.

Hook has had more chances at 10 for Wales than a lot of quality OHs - Nicky Robinson and Biggar to name two.

Hook does have moments of brilliance and can win matches, but he is not a reliable 10 like Stephen Jones was - hence he wasn't trusted by the coaches because he couldn't be relied on under pressure.

The several Welsh coaches and the Ospreys coaches must have all allowed the next Dan Carter to slip away because they were all terrible at spotting talent - or more likely, they were right and Hook isn't up to the standards of an international 10.

Unfit to lace Toby Flood's boots let alone Dan Carters.

Spot on

[Morgannwg]

Why do the Hook parade always state he's a good player because he had some good games in 2007/08? And why do they state another player played poorly when pointing out the flaws of Hook? RWC was the nail in his coffin. He'll stay in France and be forgotten by Wales within a season.

[Liam]

Why do the Hook parade always state he's a good player because he had some good games in 2007/08? And why do they state another player played poorly when pointing out the flaws of Hook? RWC was the nail in his coffin. He'll stay in France and be forgotten by Wales within a season.

Some good games, he was superb throughout the 2008 GS winning year. Him and Jones at FH were fantastic for Wales. Hook was playing well because he was playing week in week out at 10 for his region. Then for some reason, the O's decided to play Biggar 10 with Hook at 12.

So when Hook was being played 10 for Wales, he had played very little game time there and it showed with his poor performances. He then was switched to centre where he was playing for the O's and for me, did a decent job there. However, he was clearly not a natural there and lost his place and quite rightly so.

So now he's gone to France, where he's playing week in week out at 10 and from what i';ve seen and heard he looks to be on the way back to where he once was and the first game back for Wales we play him centre as a replacement, then drop him for the next game while Preistland who is in terrible form takes up the bench spot. Hook is by far the most nautrally gifted player for Wales since Henson and yet he's never since 2008 been given a fair crack of the whip at 10.

[flyhalffactory]

"Hook is by far the most nautrally gifted player for Wales since Henson and yet he's never since 2008 been given a fair crack of the whip at 10."

What are his natural gifts (as a flyhalf)?

Defending the line
Decision making
Attacking options
Organising an attacking line
Constructing the link between forwards and backs play
Dead ball kicking
Out of hand kicking
Defending
Tackling
Ability to change the game plan
Consistency (i.e. the ability to play at a high level for most of the game)

Ahem NO to the above...........


So what are his natural gifts?

Does he run (or did he used to run) at every opportunity mostly headless chicken into areas where he normally got turned over?
Can he spot a gap in broken play?
Has he a fantastic handoff?

Ahem YES to the above

So was (is) he a destructive runner, who can spot an opportunity to create chances? Yes

Is he an all round modern international 10? No

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I'll ask again: can anyone tell me what Rob Howley said yesterday on Wales Today? I caught the headline - something about Warburton still being first-choice captain - but I was cooking tea and missed the article. There's no mention on the BBC website nor on the WRU website.

[Taylorman]

What was for tea luckless..?
Very interesting game coming up...Samoa on a semi roll with a very good performance last week, albeit against Canada.

[HammerofThunor]

8 changes. Isn't that normal for Wales in these easy games? Wales should win no problem. Especially since their 'weaker' team has most of their 'better' players that were being called for in the 1st team.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Taylorman, it was chili con carne - sauce from a jar and boil-in-the-bag rice. I should go on Masterchef.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Hook does have very good skills. To my mind his bigest problem in recent times ( aside form not getting regular gametime in a set position) has been trying to do too much with them, and as pointed out above acted like a headless chicken, running into trouble, and chucking sucidal passes.
When Wales are playing badly he makes it worse by trying to force the game, when they are playing well they just dont need him.
Maybe some of that comes down to him constantly feeling like he needs to prove a point, or being bought on as a game changer. Some of that is no doubt him too, hed hardly be the first guy to be guilty of over playing.
Its a shame because he is an exciteing player, and frankly its not as if the others on offer are exactly flawless themselves.
In terms of selection, its not always that coaches havnet seen him as a quality 10 or up to it bu that they have wanted a different type of player in that role. Do England flip flop with Flood (one of the players cited as evidence tha Hooks rubbish) want a more conservative deep standing 10?

On on the fence with Hook. He has a lot of ability and showed a lot of promie in his early career. For one reason or another hes not been consistent enough in the chances he has been given to really convince anyone hes a great. The idea that theres a dozen Dan Carters sat on the sidelines because of him is somewhat eyebrowraising though.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Aha, here's the quotation I was after (apologies for the source):

‘Sam Warburton is a special player. He is still captain. Ryan has been an integral member of the squad. He is like the father figure of the whole squad and his form for the Ospreys and Wales over the last 18 months has been exceptional.

‘One thing we probably lacked against Argentina, having Alun Wyn Jones and Jamie Roberts injured, was leadership, and that is about the number of leaders you have in a team. Wales is not about the one captain, it’s about more leaders, whether it’s the back three, second row or props. It is important you create leadership within a group.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2233603/Justin-Tipuric-Dan-Biggar-step-Wales-fright-night.html

[munkian]

Leadership within a group ? Smells like 'player power to me', Warburton will have a melt down on Scrum V soon

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I take it as a tacit admission that Warburton doesn't have 'leadership' skills - otherwise surely it wouldn't have mattered that Roberts and Jones went off injured.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Leadership within a group ? Smells like 'player power to me', Warburton will have a melt down on Scrum V soon

Sounds like Stuart Lancaster and his "group of captains" to me

[BlueNote]

"Wales should win no problem"

I don't buy that. Samoa are easily capable of winning. If Wales play to the standard of the last 6N, they probably ought to win but it wouldn't be a dead cert even then. People always seem to underestimate Samoa. I still have awful memories of 99, and Samoa are way better than they were then.

One of the memories that sticks out from that game in 99 was Howlers passing to the blind side where we had just Garin Jenkins and Chris Wyatt, against about 5 Samoan defenders. There were some very similar moments from Knoyle on Saturday.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Speaking of the Six Nations, BlueNote, we didn't run away with any of those matches. We won them, yes, but none of them by a street.

[munkian]

The Scotland game was fairly conclusive and France didn't look like worrying us too much but yes, not emphatic wins.

[BlueNote]

Agreed, LP & Munkian, although I think we'd be favourites vs Samoa at home if we played to our general 6N standard - not by so much we could be confident of winning.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

What i dont get is if they lacked leadership against Argentina, and Warburton is a special leader like Hitler only nice, why is he dropped?

[HERSH]

Warburton is made of glass and he knows it!

Hence why he isn't the player that the Welsh once claimed he was.

[munkian]

Everyone has a boogey side

[thebluesmancometh]

When was the last time Manu was chopped inches from the line by a window HERSH?!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

When was the last time you put that down to a good tackle rather than poor decision making by Tuilagi ?

[Higher_Ground]

When was the last time you put that down to a good tackle rather than poor decision making by Tuilagi ?

He should have decided to score the try. Also, to be less one dimensional.

[bedfordwelsh]

Did anyone see the interview with that muppet Howley? He all but stated that Warburton will start next week against the All Blacks, he stated Sam is still captain and will remain captain.

So the way I read it is no matter how good the back row plays tonight one of them will be dropped next weekend

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