Rugby-Bundesliga, all second tier Europe now.

Just looking at Rugby-Bundesliga

It looks like the German league has changed format.
The new system will see the number of clubs in the Bundesliga increased from ten to 24, the league divided into four regional divisions of six clubs each.

Think this is great, as at present it cuts down travel for clubs, but for future creates 4 regional teams (the best players of the 6 clubs in each regional division).

Ok they only have 11,254 Registered players but Scotland has only registered players 38,500.

Think in time these 4 could be invited to Europes 3rd tier cup?

Just looking at Europe for teams ready to make the next leap and enter teams in a european comp.
I think the factors are Registered players, Division and world ranking.

European Nations Cup First Division 1A (world ranking)
Belgium Registered players 14,266 (23)
Georgia Registered players 6000 (15)
Portugal Registered players 5,877 (24)
Romania Registered players 8,188 (18)
Russia Registered players 21,670 (20)
Spain Registered players 27,572 (19)

European Nations Cup First Division 1B
Poland Registered players 6,779 (28)
Sweden Registered players 3,467 (38)
Germany Registered players 11,254 (31)
Ukraine Registered players 2,820 (30)
Czech rep. Registered players 5,172 (40)
Moldova Registered players 2,500 (34)

When the Germans go in to anything they do it seriosly...i wouldnt be surprised to see them improving year on year...and those Germans have some big guys aswell...

Theres a lot of European teams really getting into rugby now...

Kingshu wrote:Just looking at Rugby-Bundesliga

It looks like the German league has changed format.
The new system will see the number of clubs in the Bundesliga increased from ten to 24, the league divided into four regional divisions of six clubs each.

Think this is great, as at present it cuts down travel for clubs, but for future creates 4 regional teams (the best players of the 6 clubs in each regional division).

Ok they only have 11,254 Registered players but Scotland has only registered players 38,500.

Think in time these 4 could be invited to Europes 3rd tier cup?

I don't know if inviting individual teams would be a good idea, I think it would stretch them too far and they would get pounded. Perhaps they should look at doing what the Romanians do with the Bucharesti Wolves, by creating a representative team from their best players. If that goes well they could maybe form another one.

Cumbrian wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Just looking at Rugby-Bundesliga

It looks like the German league has changed format.
The new system will see the number of clubs in the Bundesliga increased from ten to 24, the league divided into four regional divisions of six clubs each.

Think this is great, as at present it cuts down travel for clubs, but for future creates 4 regional teams (the best players of the 6 clubs in each regional division).

Ok they only have 11,254 Registered players but Scotland has only registered players 38,500.

Think in time these 4 could be invited to Europes 3rd tier cup?

I don't know if inviting individual teams would be a good idea, I think it would stretch them too far and they would get pounded. Perhaps they should look at doing what the Romanians do with the Bucharesti Wolves, by creating a representative team from their best players. If that goes well they could maybe form another one.

That is what I was meaning, the 24 teams are split into 4 groups of six, North, south east and west. Invite the 4 representive teams (the best of the 6 clubs in that region.

At least have a German tournament, of North, South, East and West to start,
maybe have them expand in a few years to play Dutch regional sides (maybe 2/3 teams) as well.
2 Romanian teams, and you would have the founding of a Contentinal league. Spanish as well maybe in time and when they could afford to travel a bit more.
Ok they won't be good at start, but it is a start.

As was said it is set up for regions.

Rugby is growing there.

Knew a germany underage player (from SA) who said that more and more germanys are playing.

The soccer league up until the 90s was also done on a regional level at the very top.

GeordieFalcon wrote:When the Germans go in to anything they do it seriosly...i wouldnt be surprised to see them improving year on year...and those Germans have some big guys aswell...

Theres a lot of European teams really getting into rugby now...

Well said, if the Germans truley get their act together they'll be a big and very clinical animal. I for one have been wondering of Ruygby would take off there, and one day i'd love to see them join a 7N competition. It can only be good all involved if Germany reach that level of play.

AlastairW wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:When the Germans go in to anything they do it seriosly...i wouldnt be surprised to see them improving year on year...and those Germans have some big guys aswell...

Theres a lot of European teams really getting into rugby now...

Well said, if the Germans truley get their act together they'll be a big and very clinical animal. I for one have been wondering of Ruygby would take off there, and one day i'd love to see them join a 7N competition. It can only be good all involved if Germany reach that level of play.

Belgium seem to be developing the quickest. They are quickly becoming the best European tier 2 nation. What happened to Romania though? They were once threatning to become a tier 1 nation ,but have since gone backwards big time.

Georgia and Rominia are still 7th and 8th in Europe

Spain, portugal, Russia, Germany, Belgium and Ukaine are 9-14th in no piticular order.

As shown at the weekend you have the top 10 teams. Followed by the 3 PIs.

Then it is Japan, Canada, Geogria, USA and Rominia.

Then it is the European teams with Uraguy and Nambia.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:When the Germans go in to anything they do it seriosly...i wouldnt be surprised to see them improving year on year...and those Germans have some big guys aswell...

Theres a lot of European teams really getting into rugby now...

Well said, if the Germans truley get their act together they'll be a big and very clinical animal. I for one have been wondering of Ruygby would take off there, and one day i'd love to see them join a 7N competition. It can only be good all involved if Germany reach that level of play.

Belgium seem to be developing the quickest. They are quickly becoming the best European tier 2 nation. What happened to Romania though? They were once threatning to become a tier 1 nation ,but have since gone backwards big time.

Are they? What's that based on? They've only just been promoted to the top tier of the ENC so at best you could say they're 6th best team in the European '2nd tier'. The next two years may tell us more however. Are they winning loads of games outside the ENC?

HammerofThunor wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:When the Germans go in to anything they do it seriosly...i wouldnt be surprised to see them improving year on year...and those Germans have some big guys aswell...

Theres a lot of European teams really getting into rugby now...

Well said, if the Germans truley get their act together they'll be a big and very clinical animal. I for one have been wondering of Ruygby would take off there, and one day i'd love to see them join a 7N competition. It can only be good all involved if Germany reach that level of play.

Belgium seem to be developing the quickest. They are quickly becoming the best European tier 2 nation. What happened to Romania though? They were once threatning to become a tier 1 nation ,but have since gone backwards big time.

Are they? What's that based on? They've only just been promoted to the top tier of the ENC so at best you could say they're 6th best team in the European '2nd tier'. The next two years may tell us more however. Are they winning loads of games outside the ENC?

Their on a 7 game win streak in the European nations cup and are now 23rd in the rankings. They are improving very quickly.

Yes but that was the 2nd level in the ENC. They weren't playing Georgia, Russia, Romania or Portugal or the other team in their. They may very well be outstripping the others in the 2nd level but that certainly doesn't mean they're "quickly becoming the best European tier 2 nation"

Other teams at that level

Moldova (38)
Poland (26)
Czech Republic (44)
Germany (30)
Netherlands (39)

HammerofThunor wrote:Yes but that was the 2nd level in the ENC. They weren't playing Georgia, Russia, Romania or Portugal or the other team in their. They may very well be outstripping the others in the 2nd level but that certainly doesn't mean they're "quickly becoming the best European tier 2 nation"

Other teams at that level

Moldova (38)
Poland (26)
Czech Republic (44)
Germany (30)
Netherlands (39)

Ok ,ye your right. The point I was trying to make is that they are improving very quickly. It wasnt long ago that nobody knew that Belgium even had a rugby team.

HammerofThunor wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Belgium seem to be developing the quickest. They are quickly becoming the best European tier 2 nation. What happened to Romania though? They were once threatning to become a tier 1 nation ,but have since gone backwards big time.

Are they? What's that based on? They've only just been promoted to the top tier of the ENC so at best you could say they're 6th best team in the European '2nd tier'. The next two years may tell us more however. Are they winning loads of games outside the ENC?

Hammer, the good thing about Belgium is they're performing well at underage level. Numbers are growing too among young people. The sport is in good health. Belgium too has a great advantage in its position. Its next to France and Britain.

The Germans have their own rugby academy set up by a millionaire a few years back. This move looks to be exciting for the future especially if they've plans on creating regional teams. You could have a Bavarian team for example which would work well because Bavarians have their own customs as do other regions.

I've been argueing all along that the IRB should be concentrating on growing the game in Europe. If rugby could gain a foothold in a few countries it would be massive for the world game not to mention things like the HEC etc.

HammerofThunor wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:When the Germans go in to anything they do it seriosly...i wouldnt be surprised to see them improving year on year...and those Germans have some big guys aswell...

Theres a lot of European teams really getting into rugby now...

Well said, if the Germans truley get their act together they'll be a big and very clinical animal. I for one have been wondering of Ruygby would take off there, and one day i'd love to see them join a 7N competition. It can only be good all involved if Germany reach that level of play.

Belgium seem to be developing the quickest. They are quickly becoming the best European tier 2 nation. What happened to Romania though? They were once threatning to become a tier 1 nation ,but have since gone backwards big time.

Are they? What's that based on? They've only just been promoted to the top tier of the ENC so at best you could say they're 6th best team in the European '2nd tier'. The next two years may tell us more however. Are they winning loads of games outside the ENC?

Oddly i was having this conversation at work with a Romanian temp staff member we had in towards the end of summer. Making polite conversation and of course sports crop up, and to my shock she was rather savvy about Rugby in general. According to her it was a lot bigger there during the CCCP days, and shortly thereafter, but has definatley waned since.

I'm all for organic growth throughout the EU and one day i'd love to see a 'true' European cup being held, whether that's what HC becomes or a brand new competition entirely, but there is a lot more development to go before that happens.

Just for those who have a passing interest but don't know quite how the European Nations competitions are structured etc...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Nations_Cup_(rugby_union)

Division 1A should have some really tasty match ups with teams very evenly matched, and the ultimate prize for the top 2 of automatic qualification for the 2015 RWC.

I was under the impression in Romania that the army forced the guys to play rugby as part of their training...thus they had a strong team during that spell...but have since fallen by the way...

I worked in Denmark for sometime...and even they have the beginnings of a team coming through etc.
We saw highlights of the Cyprus team playing like Fiji against Bulgaria...with SUPERB handling etc...

It is great to see...and whilst they may be behind other teams in the world...if the Europeans get it together and work on it...it could become quite a big rugby area...

Lets not forget though that rugby is gaining support in many other parts of the areas.
Aisa have their version of the Euro Cup of Nations. The Asian 5 nations...which goes down in leagues aswell...with teams like Thailand and Malaysia playing...

Africa have their version now aswell...and if any this could be a huge breeding ground for rugby...Ivory Coast have already been to the WC previosuly...and teams like Tunisia, Morroco etc challenging Namibia for WC spots. Kenya are flying in the 7's and hopefully this transfers across to the 15's game...and teams like Nigeria...could have physically impressive teams....

I think we all saw that report on Madagascar where rugby is huge..i think there was a 40000 crowd for a WC qualifier if my mind serves me right...

Its nice to see...and brings more interest to the game from a fans perspective aswell...

Just looking at Europe for teams ready to make the next leap and enter teams in a european comp.
I think the factors are Registered players, Division and world ranking.

European Nations Cup First Division 1A (world ranking)
Belgium Registered players 14,266 (23)
Georgia Registered players 6000 (15)
Portugal Registered players 5,877 (24)
Romania Registered players 8,188 (18)
Russia Registered players 21,670 (20)
Spain Registered players 27,572 (19)

European Nations Cup First Division 1B
Poland Registered players 6,779 (28)
Sweden Registered players 3,467 (38)
Germany Registered players 11,254 (31)
Ukraine Registered players 2,820 (30)
Czech rep. Registered players 5,172 (40)
Moldova Registered players 2,500 (34)

In comparsion Scotland have the Registered players of the 6 nations teams with 38,500

Romania really declined with the fall of Communism, weither it was army or funding that they got or was seen as a game of old regime, and therefore no longer played, I'm not sure.

But the Countries that stand ready to make the next stage for me would be Russia and Spain, they have the biggest playing numbers and investment by IRB could see game expand there. Romania and Georgia punch well above their weights in terms of Registered players. But Spain is were I see the best place for potentional growth.

I read on wiki that Japan has the third or fourth largest amount of registered players and their coaches are targeting to be in the top 10 in the rankings within the next couple of years.

Surely they will be the next big team.

Japan Registered players 122,598
Japan has the fourth largest population of rugby union players in the world.
Ranked 16th in IRB world rankings.
Surly they are going to become a force,

But I'd go for USA Registered players 457,983, I would love the Pro 12 to Expand their, invite USA rugby to create 2 teams, Playing in Boston and New York, if H-cup falls through 4 USA teams + Pro 12?

Kingshu wrote:Japan Registered players 122,598
Japan has the fourth largest population of rugby union players in the world.
Ranked 16th in IRB world rankings.
Surly they are going to become a force,

But I'd go for USA Registered players 457,983, I would love the Pro 12 to Expand their, invite USA rugby to create 2 teams, Playing in Boston and New York, if H-cup falls through 4 USA teams + Pro 12?

Does USA really have that many players??? What is holding them back?

How many does Canada have? I know they like their rugby too.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I read on wiki that Japan has the third or fourth largest amount of registered players and their coaches are targeting to be in the top 10 in the rankings within the next couple of years.

Surely they will be the next big team.

That was the wrong term to use...they're all about 5'5

Canada Registered players 73,664

these are all wiki figures so maybe not the best.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_union_in_Canada

just type rugby union in ..... and it brings it up
In Ireland Registered players 153,823
China Registered players 4810 just though with a big pop they may have loads hidden away
.India Registered players 24,010, 7160 of whom are female

This link may be better

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_playing_countries

Number of Clubs may be better
Ireland 221 Registered players 153080
England 1809 Registered players 1990988
New Zealand 600 Registered players 146893

These seam to be lifted from IRB site, but not sure wwith Aus having over 4000 ref's and England 300?

But looking at
Wales 250 clubs, Registered players 50557
Scotland 251, Registered players 38500
Spain 210, Registered players 20016

Shows Spain may not be that far away from stepping up, ok they enter a club in Almin, but a few regions, and they could make real progress

No. of Clubs Senior males
Argentina 420 ?
Australia 770 39380
Belgium 58 3905
Brazil 230 5541
Canada 309 9032
Chile 26 4830
China 15 3900
Czech Republic 22 1697
Denmark 27 1766
England 1809 131399
Fiji 490 8000
Finland 11 265
France 1630 110270
Georgia 46 878
Germany 108 4639
Hong Kong 59 1813
Hungary 33 1002
Ireland 221 25440
Italy 784 15848
Japan 1522 48470
Madagascar 410 16750
Malaysia 300 25000
Netherlands 82 4386
New Zealand 600 27726
Poland 58 3143
Portugal 46 1040
Romania 83 1048
Russia 105 3633
Samoa 140 7690
Scotland 251 11687
South Africa 1526 113174
Spain 210 9588
Ukraine 44 800
Uruguay 23 1219
United States 2588 50211
Wales 250 22408

Honestly If England and France do break away and form a Cup with or without South Africa,

The only way the Pro 12 Unions have a hope of keeping thier players, is to have a comp with USA, its the Market that looks like being the best one to be able to attract the finaces to be able to compete with these 2/3, More clubs than anyother nation, and twice as many players as either Wales or Ireland.

I think the pro 12 may be able to better create a League that captures the imagition that Super XV or Engalnd/France.

If US teams were playing against say Crusaders or Bulls, or Toulose or Harlaquins I don't think it would capture the attention of US Citizens, as much as playing Munster or Leinster, or any Irish province would.

Not only are these among the best teams in Europe, they would attract large support in NY and Boston, and many other cities. Theres a sizeable Welsh pop as well, and NY has plenty of Italians in it. Down right the Pro 12 would be the league that would best be able to make rugby a success in the USA.

I dont think you can really count the IRB registered players in the statistics, ideally you should use the adult male catagory, because that gives you more of an idea of a countries strength at adult rugby and their player pool.

If you looked at Sri Lankas player base it's massive, but most of them are children.

People always compare Ireland and Wales yet they have 3x our male adult players so it's suprising we manage to compete at all! then look at Scotlands adult player base which declines hugely each year it seems.

Iv'e read in a few places that Spain are considered the next country who will step up into Top European rugby, sadly last I heard they have some kind of domestic league rebellion with several top clubs breaking away from the union to form their own rugby competiton. Which also makes them ineligible for the Spanish national team. I'm not sure if this has been resolved yet.

the second table I put in is number of clubs and Senior males
No women or underage players just the senor males.



Ireland and Wales are closelt matched
Ireland Clubs 221 senior males 25440
Wales Clubs 250 Senior males 22408

Surprised that there are only 250 clubs listed by the IRB for Wales? To show how much rugby is behind GAA in Ireland, there are 2,319 GAA clubs in Ireland and 221 Rugby Clubs!

Shifty wrote:I dont think you can really count the IRB registered players in the statistics, ideally you should use the adult male catagory, because that gives you more of an idea of a countries strength at adult rugby and their player pool.

If you looked at Sri Lankas player base it's massive, but most of them are children.

People always compare Ireland and Wales yet they have 3x our male adult players so it's suprising we manage to compete at all! then look at Scotlands adult player base which declines hugely each year it seems.

Iv'e read in a few places that Spain are considered the next country who will step up into Top European rugby, sadly last I heard they have some kind of domestic league rebellion with several top clubs breaking away from the union to form their own rugby competiton. Which also makes them ineligible for the Spanish national team. I'm not sure if this has been resolved yet.

Did Spain ever qualify for a world cup? If you look at the Pro D2 squads on wiki it shows there a loads of Spanish players playing in that league.

I looked up rugby in Belgium years ago before I spent time there and laughed when I found out it was the lowest ranked country in the whole world and had a few hundred players. What the hell has happened? That was only about four years ago! Now they're ranked 23 and have 58 clubs and 14000 players! What the hell? Whatever is going on in that country everyone else needs to copy it. It's incredible.

What happened to Romania was simple enough. The communist government used to put huge money into sport but since it was overthrown the money went elsewhere. Also rugby was associated with the army, not the people and for a while the army were fighting the people.

The USA is severely challenged by geography and of course having to compete with pro sports for atheletes. Their "play rugby" school programme has increased child players hugely though. The union do this two day training with gym teachers and give them some basic equipment and a dvd and send them off (I think). Colleges were reluctant to invest in rugby before it was an olympic sport but now there is a better possibility for success for the sport at adult level. The cost of sending teams huge distances to play each other every week is the greatest challenge. They've changed their league again to try to solve this. Check out ruggamatrix america for news there.

Intotouch wrote:I looked up rugby in Belgium years ago before I spent time there and laughed when I found out it was the lowest ranked country in the whole world and had a few hundred players. What the hell has happened? That was only about four years ago! Now they're ranked 23 and have 58 clubs and 14000 players! What the hell? Whatever is going on in that country everyone else needs to copy it. It's incredible..

I can only presume theres rugby on TV there? Their last president did a great job.

I got into rugby because I caught the HEC final on BBC in 2001. Having the game on free-to-air tele can make a massive difference.

Intotouch wrote:I looked up rugby in Belgium years ago before I spent time there and laughed when I found out it was the lowest ranked country in the whole world and had a few hundred players. What the hell has happened? That was only about four years ago! Now they're ranked 23 and have 58 clubs and 14000 players! What the hell? Whatever is going on in that country everyone else needs to copy it. It's incredible.

What happened to Romania was simple enough. The communist government used to put huge money into sport but since it was overthrown the money went elsewhere. Also rugby was associated with the army, not the people and for a while the army were fighting the people.

The USA is severely challenged by geography and of course having to compete with pro sports for atheletes. Their "play rugby" school programme has increased child players hugely though. The union do this two day training with gym teachers and give them some basic equipment and a dvd and send them off (I think). Colleges were reluctant to invest in rugby before it was an olympic sport but now there is a better possibility for success for the sport at adult level. The cost of sending teams huge distances to play each other every week is the greatest challenge. They've changed their league again to try to solve this. Check out ruggamatrix america for news there.

I knew Belgium were developing quickly but I didnt realise it was developing that quick. Fair play to them.

Look Im not saying those figures are a load of Love sacks or anything but apparently the average Chinese club has 290 players....whereas the average Romanian one has 12, not even enough to play league

I think 606 needs to investigate the German Rugby further and in great detail. I propose a meeting in Munich, sometime in the last two weeks of September.

Didn't the Chinese sports ministry pull their funding of 15 a side rugby and chose to focus on 7's as it was in the Olympics?

I remember reading an article about Chinese rugby, and rugby was an official sport of the army and basically if you were in the army you played a few games a year. I didn't really believe it as the PLA is massive.

Hmmm. I think you may be right Doctor Grey. This must be investigated. A quick trip into Belgium too is needed to verify the changes there too. I heard a rumour that the beers being brewed there may be altering peoples minds to make them more interested in all things rugby. This requires careful study.

Intotouch wrote:Hmmm. I think you may be right Doctor Grey. This must be investigated. A quick trip into Belgium too is needed to verify the changes there too. I heard a rumour that the beers being brewed there may be altering peoples minds to make them more interested in all things rugby. This requires intense study.

Fixed it for you