New Drivers

So, lots of buzz about the Titleist 913s, out this week, and announcements/previews of new weapons from Nike and now Callaway. I dare say there'll be a Rocketballz2 from TaylorMade some time in the new year, and/or an R13 or R11 t/u/v.

Which one is best, though? Clearly that will vary from person to person, and the only way to find out is to try them all. However, it seems to me that there are only two options - try off the shelf versions of various clubs in one place, or try various shaft/loft combinations of one (manufacturer's) driver. I bought my current driver the first way 5 years ago, only to have the shaft changed last year. I wanted to try various makes because I'd always bought Titleist before and didn't want to just blindly do so again, and lo and behold the flightscope figures came out best for ...the Titelist. But then, as I said, I had to get the shaft changed because I was hitting it too high.

So if I decide to treat myself in the new year, should I try all the new models or get the best matching Titleist?

Just personal choice, Smithers. Got fitted for a R11 last year. 9.5 regular. Was going ok till I tried a friend's Ping Rapture, which blew the r11 away( and it was 10.5 stiff) got one for £60 and can't see myself being tempted to try the new Rocketballz 9 or whatever.

Hemmingway wrote:Just personal choice, Smithers. Got fitted for a R11 last year. 9.5 regular. Was going ok till I tried a friend's Ping Rapture, which blew the r11 away( and it was 10.5 stiff) got one for £60 and can't see myself being tempted to try the new Rocketballz 9 or whatever.

Hi Hemmingway, welcome to the golf board.

Your experience here would suggest your driver fitting was a waste of time. Was the fitter an amateur?

P.S. I am suspicious of club fitting aimed at the handicap golfer as a money making scam.

My choice would be to get the best of both worlds, try all clubs and all shaft & loft combinations. But that's going to take an age, so it wouldn't be worth any pro's time just for one driver sale.

I wonder how much difference the head can make? Assuming the identical shaft is going to be available in any top brand driver, it has to be pretty key surely?

If the club fitting is carried out in american golf - or a similar retailer - the chances are the individual carrying out the fitting is not trained to anywhere near the level needed for it to be useful.

Although even if you do find a manufacturer fitting centre or tour van I have serious doubts about what club fitting can offer anyone with a handicap of high single figures and upward. Given the level of consistency at this level and what improvements need to be made in the swing you would need a different set up every swing made. As always, get a lesson instead of spending money on gear.

Mac, custom fitting is not necessarily for consistency, but to help make your bad shots less destructive.

Saying that, I was recently fitted for a Driver, thought I loved it until I picked a 3 wood off the shelf and started hitting it as far as the driver, so either the fitter didn't know what he was doing and didn't fit to my optimum stats or I don't have the talent to hit a driver well, or I just haven't stumbled across the perfect driver combination for me.(Although I did drive TOC 18th Green on Saturday!!!)

incontinentia wrote:

Hemmingway wrote:Just personal choice, Smithers. Got fitted for a R11 last year. 9.5 regular. Was going ok till I tried a friend's Ping Rapture, which blew the r11 away( and it was 10.5 stiff) got one for £60 and can't see myself being tempted to try the new Rocketballz 9 or whatever.

Hi Hemmingway, welcome to the golf board.

Your experience here would suggest your driver fitting was a waste of time. Was the fitter an amateur?

P.S. I am suspicious of club fitting aimed at the handicap golfer as a money making scam.

I absolutely agree. Any amateur golfer should ensure that the shaft is the right flex, the clubs are the right length, and the lie is correct. After that, I don't think tinkering makes any perceivable difference. If you are a pro, playing in warm conditions all the time with a repetitive swing, and you don't have to pay for the clubs and fitting, then fair enough.

For amateurs, who play twice a week in conditions ranging from freezing in the winter to baking in the summer, on courses that vary between boggy and rock hard, then I just don't think club fitting is necessary. People spend £ hundreds on changing shafts (especially in drivers) that yield 2 yards extra distance.

I suppose that people may feel more confident with clubs that they think are dead right, but I've never seen anyone suddenly go from 12 to 6 handicap (say) on the basis of a new set of tailored clubs.

.(Although I did drive TOC 18th Green on Saturday!!!).

A par is always good there.

Are there any websites/magazines that cross test current drivers from all manufacturers using the same shaft/ball and hit by a robot so it is a true(r) test of driver head performance?

Or do manufacturers block the release of results as the difference would become clear and we'd all buy the Hippo or Jaxxxxxxx driver and fit a shaft?

I know that the shaft (and swing consistency) is a massive contributor on a person to person basis, but I'd guess that the "best" head and price combination would be a big boost for the consumer.

Roller, Check out Golfspy. THey do the best club reviews I know of.


http://www.mygolfspy.com/category/product-reviews/drivers/

I know I've benefited massively from the change of shaft recommended by a club fitter last year. I don't know about distance (other than it's better) but certainly in terms of flight characteristics. He was at pains to stress to me that the new shaft wasn't a cure-all, though, and that I needed to have lessons to reduce the loft I was applying to the driver at impact, which I've done.

For my next driver, I don't want to have to refit it some months down the line, but neither do I want to pick any one brand without trying a few head/shaft combinations.

Gaining distance probably isn't a good reason for getting a fitting anyway. Accuracy and forgiveness are far more important.

Cheers SR - looks a fairly decent site and testing process. People rather than robots but testing appears to be pretty consistent making the results more meaningful.

I think people are a better barometer, no one hits hit like a robot anyway. So with a robot you wouldn't get any stats on dispersion as every shot would be almost identical. THat only allows you to make a choice on trajectory and distance.
Accuracy is the key to being fitted so there's no point in having a driver that is 10 yards longer but 10 yards less accurate.

super_realist wrote:I think people are a better barometer, no one hits hit like a robot anyway. So with a robot you wouldn't get any stats on dispersion as every shot would be almost identical. THat only allows you to make a choice on trajectory and distance.
Accuracy is the key to being fitted so there's no point in having a driver that is 10 yards longer but 10 yards less accurate.

Eh? Surely if there's a difference in dispersion via a robot cf. people, that's down to oddities of a person's swing? If you want dispersion data to mean anything, you have to remove other variables otherwise you've no idea what's causing the observed data.

But you won't get any dispersion with a robot will you, as they are hitting a consistent strike, speed, angle etc every single time.

At least by comparing a group of people of differing handicaps doing the testing and the data is plotted on the graph you can make a correlation between distance/accuracy and handicap ability.

You are more like another golfer, than a robot.

Yes, peoples swings are the cause of dispersion, but the degree of dispersion with each club from each tester is likely to be more useful than a robot.

Have a look at the website, it's not intended to be gospel as to how it will behave for you. It's a REVIEW of how it worked for the testers, and really only supposed to be indicative. A robot can't tell you about feel, or how easy it is to shape either.

I've recently been browsing a few video's posted by this pro. He's uploaded nearly 700 videos to youtube with equipment reviews, and online tuition etc. I'm planning to order some new irons in the next couple of weeks, and found his reviews quite interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/user/4golfonline?feature=results_main

I'd still like to start with a straight robot comparison for the distance and launch characteristics, but I haven't found one. The mygolfspy site does seem to be pretty good (in the few minutes I have spent looking!) and seems to have a decent process. Although by it's nature it is more subjective (indeed driver reviews seem to idealise high launch whereas in our climate/conditions I'd prefer lower launch to keep below the hoolies we have to play in) it appears useful. It's interesting if nothing else.

Problem for me is any methodology falls down a little unless I get across to have a fitting/tryout as we haven't any full fitting facilities over here (understandable as there isn't the market I guess).

incontinentia wrote:

Hemmingway wrote:Just personal choice, Smithers. Got fitted for a R11 last year. 9.5 regular. Was going ok till I tried a friend's Ping Rapture, which blew the r11 away( and it was 10.5 stiff) got one for £60 and can't see myself being tempted to try the new Rocketballz 9 or whatever.

Hi Hemmingway, welcome to the golf board.

Your experience here would suggest your driver fitting was a waste of time. Was the fitter an amateur?

P.S. I am suspicious of club fitting aimed at the handicap golfer as a money making scam.

Thanks for the welcome, incontinentia. I havnt been playing golf for very long, 2 years in fact. During that time. I've made respectable progress from a starting point of 18 to 11 at the end of this season. I think that at my level, unless you are unusually tall or short, off the shelf clubs are fine. I feel that the better you are the bigger difference club fitting might make.

super_realist wrote:Gaining distance probably isn't a good reason for getting a fitting anyway. Accuracy and forgiveness are far more important.

Must say I agree with this super. At my club (and I'm sure everyone else's) its the accurate/tidy holders who sore most consistently. The really long players hit form now and again but only score well sporadically.

'accurate/tidy holders who sore'
Players who score. Stupid iPhone.

super_realist wrote:I think people are a better barometer, no one hits hit like a robot anyway. So with a robot you wouldn't get any stats on dispersion as every shot would be almost identical. THat only allows you to make a choice on trajectory and distance.
Accuracy is the key to being fitted so there's no point in having a driver that is 10 yards longer but 10 yards less accurate.

I agree with this.

I bought a new driver in the summer (910 D2 - wish I had waited for the Titleist 913 now) and I didn't buy the longest club I tried (RBZ) because the dispersion was too big for my liking. ( although i may well buy an RBZ 3 wood now though cos it goes miles)

One of the things to think about when selecting a driver is forgiveness. For example my off centre hits are usually off the toe, whereas someone else might find they hit it more off the heel. You're not going to get this from a robot, or even a single reviewer who mishits its off the heel because the club may be very forgiving for shots off the heel.

Hemmingway wrote:Thanks for the welcome, incontinentia. I havnt been playing golf for very long, 2 years in fact. During that time. I've made respectable progress from a starting point of 18 to 11 at the end of this season. I think that at my level, unless you are unusually tall or short, off the shelf clubs are fine. I feel that the better you are the bigger difference club fitting might make.

Welcome back hemmingway

That's very impressive progress. Not many beginners start with a handicap of 18, in fact most beginners would be lucky to break 120. Just as impressive (in my opinion) is reducing your handicap down to 11 in two years.

You must have you played frequently to improve so rapidly. Maybe you could post a video of your swing for Mac to analyse?

is there a new TM due out to replace the R11S?
just got an email to say they can be picked up for 225 euro from my local dealer down from 389 euro

have to say im very tempted. at this stage of the year am i as well just waiting for January though?

super_realist wrote:But you won't get any dispersion with a robot will you, as they are hitting a consistent strike, speed, angle etc every single time....

Sorry, but ! Of course you'll get dispersion with a robot - what you'll see is dispersion due to the characteristics etc of the actual shaft without the confounding factors due to an idiot human's golf swing with all its foibles. Surely this is what you're after????? Trying to assess this via humans is a nonsense as they aren't consistent enough in their swing.

Well, the robot is basically going to be the equivalent of a pro golfer and what can you learn from that unless you are also one.

If there is a range of handicaps doing the testing, you are seeing the results of a bad shot from each of them, and you get a general spread of results over a number of shots hit.

Like I said, it's a REVIEW, not a definitive method by which you choose your next driver, however, if the person is the same handicap as you, same launch angle swing speed etc( as stated in the review if you'd care to take a look) then outliers aside, it might be a good place to start.

The robot cannot tell you, how it feels at address, how it looks, how it sounds, feels off the face, whether it's workable, etc etc. That's the main point of the review based on how they hit it?

raycastleunited wrote:

Hemmingway wrote:Thanks for the welcome, incontinentia. I havnt been playing golf for very long, 2 years in fact. During that time. I've made respectable progress from a starting point of 18 to 11 at the end of this season. I think that at my level, unless you are unusually tall or short, off the shelf clubs are fine. I feel that the better you are the bigger difference club fitting might make.

Welcome back hemmingway

That's very impressive progress. Not many beginners start with a handicap of 18, in fact most beginners would be lucky to break 120. Just as impressive (in my opinion) is reducing your handicap down to 11 in two years.

You must have you played frequently to improve so rapidly. Maybe you could post a video of your swing for Mac to analyse?

Ray, do I detect that you think Hemmingway may tend to move the ball from left to right, or that his swing doesn't conform to the normal rules?

Distance can be an important factor if you can't get past the big tree on the corner of the dog-leg.

True, but distance is a function of talent, launch angle, smash factor swing speed etc, not the latest Taylor Made driver
There's no point in going in as a 12 handicapper and hoping to come out with a club that is going to make you 20 yards longer.

It isn't going to happen.

But if you are using a second hand driver made by a company no one has heard of and with a stiff shaft , how will it compare to the latest Taylor Made driver for distance?

There's no guarantee the latest TM driver will suit you any better. I actually hit my 3 wood every bit as far as my driver 9 times out of 10.

Custom fit is about optimising your equipment to you usually resulting in gains of just a couple of percent, not for performing miracles.

In 25 years of playing golf I never once bought the latest driver, always last seasons model for less than half price. I really couldn't justify the difference in price just to have the latest model, even with "all it's advancements in technology"

goldwolf wrote:In 25 years of playing golf I never once bought the latest driver, always last seasons model for less than half price. I really couldn't justify the difference in price just to have the latest model, even with "all it's advancements in technology"

With you 100% on that one.

raycastleunited wrote:

Hemmingway wrote:Thanks for the welcome, incontinentia. I havnt been playing golf for very long, 2 years in fact. During that time. I've made respectable progress from a starting point of 18 to 11 at the end of this season. I think that at my level, unless you are unusually tall or short, off the shelf clubs are fine. I feel that the better you are the bigger difference club fitting might make.

Welcome back hemmingway

That's very impressive progress. Not many beginners start with a handicap of 18, in fact most beginners would be lucky to break 120. Just as impressive (in my opinion) is reducing your handicap down to 11 in two years.

You must have you played frequently to improve so rapidly. Maybe you could post a video of your swing for Mac to analyse?

Thanks ray. Yes must admit I've played frequently and at times have practiced obsessively! Love the challenge of golf. Don't think my swing would stand up to scrutiny, but I like to chip and put!

SmithersJones wrote:

raycastleunited wrote:

Hemmingway wrote:Thanks for the welcome, incontinentia. I havnt been playing golf for very long, 2 years in fact. During that time. I've made respectable progress from a starting point of 18 to 11 at the end of this season. I think that at my level, unless you are unusually tall or short, off the shelf clubs are fine. I feel that the better you are the bigger difference club fitting might make.

Welcome back hemmingway

That's very impressive progress. Not many beginners start with a handicap of 18, in fact most beginners would be lucky to break 120. Just as impressive (in my opinion) is reducing your handicap down to 11 in two years.

You must have you played frequently to improve so rapidly. Maybe you could post a video of your swing for Mac to analyse?

Ray, do I detect that you think Hemmingway may tend to move the ball from left to right, or that his swing doesn't conform to the normal rules?

Haha- didn't pick up on this at first!

raycastleunited wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:

raycastleunited wrote:

Hemmingway wrote:Thanks for the welcome, incontinentia. I havnt been playing golf for very long, 2 years in fact. During that time. I've made respectable progress from a starting point of 18 to 11 at the end of this season. I think that at my level, unless you are unusually tall or short, off the shelf clubs are fine. I feel that the better you are the bigger difference club fitting might make.

Welcome back hemmingway

That's very impressive progress. Not many beginners start with a handicap of 18, in fact most beginners would be lucky to break 120. Just as impressive (in my opinion) is reducing your handicap down to 11 in two years.

You must have you played frequently to improve so rapidly. Maybe you could post a video of your swing for Mac to analyse?

Ray, do I detect that you think Hemmingway may tend to move the ball from left to right, or that his swing doesn't conform to the normal rules?

Right to left actually though honestly almost a hook.

super_realist wrote:..until I picked a 3 wood off the shelf and started hitting it as far as the driver...

super_realist wrote:..there's no point in going in as a 12 handicapper and hoping to come out with a club that is going to make you 20 yards longer. It isn't going to happen.

You've mentioned lots of times that your new TM RBZ 3 Wood is miles longer.. is it only the case because you're lower than 12? What about someone who is a 12 handicapper because they can't chip or putt? Your logic is flawed I think - getting a club that is better suited to your swing will usually add length. A case in point - I changed driver at the end of last season and added 15 to 20 yards (although I did also make some swing changes and so was arguably using the "wrong" driver prior to that).

Bob, I'n not saying that at all. I'm just saying people go in with unrealistic expectations of what a fitting will achieve, but perhaps especially so when they are at a mid or high handicap level.

You shouldn't necessarily go in with the view that you're going to be smashing it 20 yards further, it might happen, but it isn't guaranteed.

I probably shouldn't have mentioned a handicap, as different people will get different benefits from fitting.

When I got fitted for my driver, I was hitting one further than the other, but chose the latter because it had better dispersion stats even though it was a few yards shorter.

People?! Unrealistic expectations?!? It's like you don't know people at all!