The disappoinment of being a Springbok supporter

First topic message reminder :

It is with a serious amount of frustration that I watched South Africa see off a spirited second half performance from the Scots this evening.

Heyneke Meyer said after the first match again England in June which had 20 minute period where South Africa would have obliterated any team on the planet that there must be a 5% improvement in every game.

Sadly those twenty minutes has still been the best of what we have seen from his charges.

There are certain things we accpet from South African rugby and in all honesty I would not want to see that changed in any way whatsoever.

We have big strong forwards, we have a good line out, a decent scrum and our backrow, no matter the number of injuries will always be on par with the best out there.

The physicality of the Boks can and should never be underestimated and rightfully so. There are occasions where the backrow does let the team down in the breakdowns by not committing enough numbers as we saw against England in the thrid test, Argentina in Mendoza and Australia in Perth.

On those three occasions we were dominated at ruck time and struggled.

At least that is not an insurmountable problem and was corrected there after.

However that is where the good news ends.

Firstly the Springbok backline has now reached the point where Ruan Pienaar, Zane Kirchner and Jean de Cilliers must never again wear the Bok jersey.

As much as Ruan Pienaar is respected in Europe, he simply is not the guy that will take Bok rugby to new hights, Jean de Villiers is strong yes, but the most limited distributing 12 in world rugby, I cannot express my frustration more unless I was permitted to string along four letter words and explitives aplenty.

Apart from the fact that he doesn't pass, the bloke simply has zero vision and the crashball is his only weapon, ontop of that he has no boot and therefor he becomes a liability because of his limitations that makes him ultra predictable.

Zane Kirchner is another, similar in running style to Jean de Villiers with one exception, a percieved goose step which only he believes fool defences. It makes him less effective than Jean de Villiers as he only manages to lose momentum and pace when he does his little two step.

Yes the guy can kick, but with no plan or rhyme or reason behind his kicking.

Ruan Pienaar loves to kick, maybe it works for Ulster, but it sure as hell isn't working for South Africa.

There was once again not one ball that went through the hands to JP Pietersen or Hougaard in the match against Scotland, as was the case in the previous match against Ireland.

The monotony and predictability of the South African attack is now getting past the point of ridiculous. Rarely if ever are there more than one pass before the next ruck is setup, and every time there were two passes the result was a knock on. The forward pod running is fine but not every bloody time, and also not effective when the forward gets isolated because there are no support runners on his shoulder.

There is no variation and it seems South Africa is doomed to forever be the most predictable team on planet Earth. They are not interested to exhibit any skills beyond running into the nearest man and seeing whether this will provide the desired result.

i was embarresed tonight to see Scotland have more adventurous spirit than South Africa. What does it help we are trying new players ar pivot, when Pienaar still feeds the forward pod half the time, kicks another 30 percent of the time and then on occasion provides Lambie with slow ball.

It almost suggests a conspiracy plotted by Meyer and his cohorts to deprive the playmakers of ball in order for them to remain ineffective.

I am an armchair critic, however it astounds me and makes no common sense that the people running Springbok rugby does not reallise there is something wrong.

I am so fedup I want to #^%{+] myself.

Taylorman wrote:Meet with all the sxv squads and coaches. Tell him the style of rugby he wants his side to play next year.

In an ideal world yes but I'd imagine the sxv coaches would give him a f.off tablet. Be a similar result to the England football manager asking the premiership managers to change the style of play to suit the national side.

The franchises are a business and the national cause is not a priority to them, money and results are.

Biltong wrote:
1. Why is Lambie so much poorer than he was for Guppies?

Is it perhaps because at the Sharks he's got enterprising running loose forwards in Daniels and Kankowski and creative midfield in Jordaan and Whitehead. It's difficult for the flyhalf to do anything magical when no one around him is running lines etc. I'm not necessarily defending Lambie outright - I do feel he's been disappointing...

Galted wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Meet with all the sxv squads and coaches. Tell him the style of rugby he wants his side to play next year.

In an ideal world yes but I'd imagine the sxv coaches would give him a f.off tablet. Be a similar result to the England football manager asking the premiership managers to change the style of play to suit the national side.

The franchises are a business and the national cause is not a priority to them, money and results are.

Yes I know...same with most sides, and also why everyone else is at least 7% behind the ABs on the ranking list.
No point then discussing the merits of matching the ABs when almost every side is subject to a self defeating prophecy.

We will sit there at the top forever on that basis. I mean its not NZs fault everyone else is dumb surely?

And long may it continue.

Taylorman wrote:

Galted wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Meet with all the sxv squads and coaches. Tell him the style of rugby he wants his side to play next year.

In an ideal world yes but I'd imagine the sxv coaches would give him a f.off tablet. Be a similar result to the England football manager asking the premiership managers to change the style of play to suit the national side.

The franchises are a business and the national cause is not a priority to them, money and results are.

Yes I know...same with most sides, and also why everyone else is at least 7% behind the ABs on the ranking list.
No point then discussing the merits of matching the ABs when almost every side is subject to a self defeating prophecy.

We will sit there at the top forever on that basis. I mean its not NZs fault everyone else is dumb surely?

And long may it continue.

Not sure whether you are being facetious, judgemental or a tad arrogant. But everyone else isn't dumb, they just don't have the collective mindset that NZ has.

Taylorman wrote:

I mean its not NZs fault everyone else is dumb surely?

And long may it continue.

No but it is New Zealand's fault that Cory Jane is so thick.

Really? Didn't look thick against Italy nor anyone else on the field this year. In fact most sides made him look very smart indeed. So we'll take his kind of thick any day thanks guns.

He might be a talented rugby player but he is one of the thickest rugby player I have ever seen in a interview. Every country has or has had smart guys:

Conrad Smith, NZ
Jamie Roberts, Wales
Tony O'Reilly, Ireland
etc.

However, Jane should be kept well away from the cameras and any microphones. He makes Andy powell and Gavin Henson look like Einstein.

Taylorman - everyone thinks once they've reached the summit, they will be their forever... hardly ever been the case though. I wonder how many of your countrymen back in 87 thought that it would be another 24 years before you tasted victory again? Enjoy it while it lasts... come 2015 you may not feel as you do now until 2035.

The best thing I think the NZRU has done IMO is to accept that they cannot compete with European/Japanese money but at the same time have come up with possible solutions to keep the players they want. Allowing Carter to go off to France for 6 months was a master stroke.... gave him enough money to be satisfied with and also play for his national team.

They have also given players sabbaticals to keep older guys fresh.... which other union does that.... most teams will flog guys like McCaw and Carter until they are no more.

Just look at McCaw and Burger... both came about at siimilar times but Burger has 68 caps to McCaw's 114. You could say the same with JW and Carter.

All other sides have been... well if player x chooses the money over the glory of representing their country then we're better off without them. They will be worse off... its not that these players are disloyal.. but torn between their family, their future and their country.

The boks lost Frans Steyn for much of the last RWC cycle and have now lost Jaque Fourie for this cycle.... 2 genuine world class players (in a time when the term is over used).

We've been talking about Juan Smith ending his test career... if he had been managed better, perhaps he wouldn't have had to pull a curtain on his career aged 31... proper managed he should have made it to the next rwc.

Come the end of the Currie Cup season usually you are seeing the springboks amongst the players looking more like old boxers who are 8 rounds into a fight with Tyson, they are flogged hard and if you look at the injuries to senior players at the moment it is alarmingly high.

GunsGerms wrote:He might be a talented rugby player but he is one of the thickest rugby player I have ever seen in a interview. Every country has or has had smart guys:

Conrad Smith, NZ
Jamie Roberts, Wales
Tony O'Reilly, Ireland
etc.

However, Jane should be kept well away from the cameras and any microphones. He makes Andy powell and Gavin Henson look like Einstein.

Perhaps guns but interpreting dumb from an international rugby sense as how Cory Jane comes across in interviews...well, need say no more.

Taylorman seriously? Do I really need to point out that I have never said Jane was a bad player or a stupid player in a rugby sense. Are you having a Cory Jane moment?

Don't think Tman is talking about RWCs fa0019. More about being top of the rankings. It's rare in the professional era where we've been knocked off number one and we always seem to recover that crown by the end of the year or soon after.

There's a complex set of reasons for that dominance. One factor is indeed player management and working with a top down approach. Everything feeds into the national team and that starts from grassroots rugby. So player management and putting the black jersey first and foremost sounds simple and inconsequential but does have a huge impact. Kidney would get his ear chewed off for example if he told Leinster how he wanted them to play and who he wanted playing in which position. But Hansen does have some influence (not complete say by any means) in terms of management and position of a player and that helps a player's test development.

As for Jane GG, he does possess a good rugby brain but is a few IQ short of a picnic lunch. Glen Osborne was perhaps the thickest I can remember. Eric Rush once had him crapping himself because he hadn't brought his passport to go from the North Island to the South Island.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Don't think Tman is talking about RWCs fa0019. More about being top of the rankings. It's rare in the professional era where we've been knocked off number one and we always seem to recover that crown by the end of the year or soon after.

There's a complex set of reasons for that dominance. One factor is indeed player management and working with a top down approach. Everything feeds into the national team and that starts from grassroots rugby. So player management and putting the black jersey first and foremost sounds simple and inconsequential but does have a huge impact. Kidney would get his ear chewed off for example if he told Leinster how he wanted them to play and who he wanted playing in which position. But Hansen does have some influence (not complete say by any means) in terms of management and position of a player and that helps a player's test development.

As for Jane GG, he does possess a good rugby brain but is a few IQ short of a picnic lunch. Glen Osborne was perhaps the thickest I can remember. Eric Rush once had him crapping himself because he hadn't brought his passport to go from the North Island to the South Island.

Sadly Kia, Eric Rush made that one up for one of his books as a WUM on Osborne. He also made up the "beer bottle" nickname for Cullen in the same book, also as a WUM.

Well that's not to say it could've happened. Jeez Pete, a little piece of me has died inside after that revelation. Next you'll be telling me Eric Rush didn't say at a guest speaker's lunch in retort to a lot of sheep noises, 'you know there's a reason why the kangaroo is the only animal in the animal kingdom to box'.

fa0019 wrote:Taylorman - everyone thinks once they've reached the summit, they will be their forever... hardly ever been the case though. I wonder how many of your countrymen back in 87 thought that it would be another 24 years before you tasted victory again? Enjoy it while it lasts... come 2015 you may not feel as you do now until 2035.

The best thing I think the NZRU has done IMO is to accept that they cannot compete with European/Japanese money but at the same time have come up with possible solutions to keep the players they want. Allowing Carter to go off to France for 6 months was a master stroke.... gave him enough money to be satisfied with and also play for his national team.

They have also given players sabbaticals to keep older guys fresh.... which other union does that.... most teams will flog guys like McCaw and Carter until they are no more.

Just look at McCaw and Burger... both came about at siimilar times but Burger has 68 caps to McCaw's 114. You could say the same with JW and Carter.

All other sides have been... well if player x chooses the money over the glory of representing their country then we're better off without them. They will be worse off... its not that these players are disloyal.. but torn between their family, their future and their country.

The boks lost Frans Steyn for much of the last RWC cycle and have now lost Jaque Fourie for this cycle.... 2 genuine world class players (in a time when the term is over used).

We've been talking about Juan Smith ending his test career... if he had been managed better, perhaps he wouldn't have had to pull a curtain on his career aged 31... proper managed he should have made it to the next rwc.

Come the end of the Currie Cup season usually you are seeing the springboks amongst the players looking more like old boxers who are 8 rounds into a fight with Tyson, they are flogged hard and if you look at the injuries to senior players at the moment it is alarmingly high.

Fa since 1987 NZ has consistently been at the top of the tree and had the rankings been there since then NZ would have been no.1 for at least 95% of the period, dropping to no worse than second to Oz or SA for the odd occasion so to say for 24 years were were 'in the wilderness' is rubbish. In terms of consistency theres no side thats come close. This is well known so picking at straws is a waste of time.

In the same vain I could say SA were lucky to win the two Wcups they did win but that'd be just as petty.

My point is that at one end of the scale fans are trying to come up with reasons their sides are not beating NZ more often due to whats happening on the field- this player this, that etc when the real reason is all the incumbents have fundamentally inept domestic structures to support it.

SA and England (and to an extent the other home unions) have a club before country concept, Oz have to much competition from other sports. The rest dont have the player base to support it.

Our domestic structure is what allows us to bring through quality players on a consistent basis.

Some sides say they don't accept losses internationally when their very structure supports the likelihood of losing.

For this reason I expect NZ to remain at the top of the heap while the status quo remain. So in 2035? Yes I'd expect NZ to be no.1 on the same basis. Been the same last 30 years- why not the next 20.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Don't think Tman is talking about RWCs fa0019. More about being top of the rankings. It's rare in the professional era where we've been knocked off number one and we always seem to recover that crown by the end of the year or soon after.

There's a complex set of reasons for that dominance. One factor is indeed player management and working with a top down approach. Everything feeds into the national team and that starts from grassroots rugby. So player management and putting the black jersey first and foremost sounds simple and inconsequential but does have a huge impact. Kidney would get his ear chewed off for example if he told Leinster how he wanted them to play and who he wanted playing in which position. But Hansen does have some influence (not complete say by any means) in terms of management and position of a player and that helps a player's test development.

As for Jane GG, he does possess a good rugby brain but is a few IQ short of a picnic lunch. Glen Osborne was perhaps the thickest I can remember. Eric Rush once had him crapping himself because he hadn't brought his passport to go from the North Island to the South Island.

The Irish manager possibly does have some influence as to how provinces line out. More than most countries manager anyway. While he cannot order any team to do anything they dont want to do Im pretty sure there have been cases where requests for certain players to line out in certain positions have been facilitated.

Besides I think Jane comes across ok. He's a typical kiwi kid who's out for a good time. Since when do we have to pick players for their IQ? His rugby brain leaves a lot of other players (north of here) in his dust.

Kia Os is the same. He comes across very dumb but he's got a gift for the gab that you cant help warming to. He's on our 'Code' (Maori tv sports show) and is hilarious most of the time. Taking on the guests at their own sports all the time...often ending up on his A^%$SE, flexing his biceps at the most inappropriate time. A natural joker in the same way that idiot Ali isnt.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Well that's not to say it could've happened. Jeez Pete, a little piece of me has died inside after that revelation. Next you'll be telling me Eric Rush didn't say at a guest speaker's lunch in retort to a lot of sheep noises, 'you know there's a reason why the kangaroo is the only animal in the animal kingdom to box'.

Don't worry Kia, the kangaroo joke is true at least.

I foolishly read Rushie's 3rd book where he fessed up to the fibs in the first one - I think Rush was a bit taken aback at how his WUMs had stuck ...

Taylorman wrote:Besides I think Jane comes across ok. He's a typical kiwi kid who's out for a good time. Since when do we have to pick players for their IQ? His rugby brain leaves a lot of other players (north of here) in his dust.

Kia Os is the same. He comes across very dumb but he's got a gift for the gab that you cant help warming to. He's on our 'Code' (Maori tv sports show) and is hilarious most of the time. Taking on the guests at their own sports all the time...often ending up on his A^%$SE, flexing his biceps at the moist inappropriate time. A natural joker in the same way that idiot Ali isnt.

Have you seen Jane's room raider videos? Cringe. He is a winger and very fast so it doesnt take a genius to play his position and I also dont think you can really claim or quantify that he has a better rugby brain than any of the top NH wingers, Bowe, Clerc, Medard, Visser, Cuthbert, ok maybe Ashton. I accept though he is a harmless character so not the worst.

Evidently! There's a touch of reality about that.

I agree Tman. Just because you're not intellectually endowed doesn't make you want to sit down and have a beer with them. Anton Oliver was a very articulate man for a front rower but he came off as a smug pr**k. Mainly because you're not used to hearing big words from a front rower.

Anyway sorry to hijack this thread. Back to the disappointment of being a Bok supporter. Read on another thread that Juan Smith is back to fitness but may not play for SA again. Now that would be disappointing.

Rushy's always been the joker. Was at Uni in Auckland at the same time and as Otahuhu players we'd always be at the Duke of Wellington- panamaroads haunt. He never drank, ever that I saw but he was always taking the mickey out of those he was with. You'd think he'd get bored with all the drunks but he loved it, always trying something, then remain anonymous after of course.

I think thats where he gets his stories from. Anyone would believe what he said the night after because they knew he never drank- they wouldnt know any better!

[quote="GunsGerms"]

Taylorman wrote: and I also dont think you can really claim or quantify that he has a better rugby brain than any of the top NH wingers, Bowe, Clerc, Medard, Visser, Cuthbert, ok maybe Ashton. I accept though he is a harmless character so not the worst.

No I can't. Nor can I quantify that any of the ABs are better or smarter than their opposites. Jane has cemented his position in a near unbeatable AB side and very rarely makes a mistake on the field, and with Dagg supreme under the high ball. Is also one of the classiest finishers in world rugby I wouldnt say that for any of those you listed- but youre right...I can't quantify it.

[quote="Taylorman"]

GunsGerms wrote:

Taylorman wrote: and I also dont think you can really claim or quantify that he has a better rugby brain than any of the top NH wingers, Bowe, Clerc, Medard, Visser, Cuthbert, ok maybe Ashton. I accept though he is a harmless character so not the worst.

No I can't. Nor can I quantify that any of the ABs are better or smarter than their opposites. Jane has cemented his position in a near unbeatable AB side and very rarely makes a mistake on the field, and with Dagg supreme under the high ball. Is also one of the classiest finishers in world rugby I wouldnt say that for any of those you listed- but youre right...I can't quantify it.

Of course you wouldnt you are a Kiwi.