Keith, Ronan and petulance

by Warthog Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:52 am

First topic message reminder :

So, we all know how ROG moaned and complained when he was rightfully displaced by Johnny Sexton in the Irish 10 shirt. Not wanting to re-hash the past, he petulantly retired after being dropped and then very quickly changed his mind and "rowed in behind the team".

Now, 80% of us on here recognise Earls ' best position as wing or full back (he is not a center). Yet, he reputedly spat the dummy over being picked in the back 3. However upset the youngish man was, I was bemused to read this morning, a quote passage from the Irish Independent highlighting his disdain:

"Keith Earls "absolutely hated playing at 11" and never wanted to play there again. And not just at international level. Rob Penney had barely stepped off the plane from New Zealand when one of his star players was rocking up to his office.

Penney, obviously cognisant of wanting to keep Earls on side, did confirm that he would be given opportunity in the centre. There was a caveat, though, and the Munster coach only went so far."

So, is this good for the Irish team? Is the coach pondering to such Prima Donna esque behaviour? Would a new coach tolerate such rubbish from 2 such senior players? Is the fact that Kidney is "close" to the 2 clouding his judgement in continuing to play Earls out of his best position, just cause he wants to play there? Is this the reason why O'Gara is continuing to get cheap caps at the expense of Messrs Jackson, Keatly and Madigan? Is this contributing in our never ending search for a new centre?

Will Ireland continue to be stifled by blind loyalty until the Kidney Clock hits zero?

by Warthog Wed 21 Nov 2012, 4:32 pm

If you don't agree with it, feel free to say why. I have presented my POV that this kind of nonsense has no place in a squad of professionals.

Earls needs to be told where he is playing and where he's not. If he plays centre, all the Gilroys and Zebus in the world wont matter. They wont see the ball cause the kid cant pass.. Remember Bowe's reaction v Boks when Earls threw him the hospital ball??? Centre my hole.

ROG needs to be shown his P45.

by Sin é Wed 21 Nov 2012, 4:33 pm

Warthog wrote:

I notice that not one answer in defence of ROG or Earls behaving like children have been offered by the unholy alliance of Sin E and his accomplice DoD...

Our comments were obviously a bit subtle for you.

(i.e., by arguing it we would give the notion credibility) !

by Warthog Wed 21 Nov 2012, 4:47 pm

No, Sin E. You regurgitated an article written 100 years ago by God knows who, saying Earls had a good game in the centre against Ulster U 19's !?

Can you see the difference, Declan?

by MrsP Wed 21 Nov 2012, 5:22 pm

Sin é wrote:came across this recently. Its an old match report of an interpro between Ulster & Munster in which Earls was the centre.

SCHOOLS U19 INTERPROVINCIAL
MUNSTER 54 ULSTER 13

Munster Schools completed a double victory at Musgrave Park on Friday with the Munster Schools U19 team following on from the U18 victory with a comprehensive 54-13 win over their Ulster counterparts. It was a fantastic start to their Interprovincial campaign, with star centre Keith Earls notching up three tries and showing what a tremendous prospect he is in a dazzling display.

Despite playing against the wind Munster controlled from the outset but didn t claim the first score until fifteen minutes into the match when full back Peter O Sullivan converted a penalty. Earls picked up his first try of the day after 11 minutes after a chip ahead from Marcus O Driscoll at halfway saw Earls beat off the competition to kick ahead once more. A favourable bounce allowed Earls to gather and score, which O Sullivan converted, stretching the lead to 10-0. On the 14 minute mark Ulster put their first points on the board with a penalty converted by out half Niall O Connor. He followed up two minutes later with another successful penalty attempt.

Munster however stretched their lead at the half hour mark with a try from centre Tim Kenneally after a well timed pass from Earls, which O Sullivan converted leaving the score 17-6 at half time.

Earl s second try came just after the restart after a break by Ronan O Sullivan set up the speedy centre who scored under the posts. O Sullivan converted once more to put Munster 24-6 in front, and then added another three points at the 7 minute mark. Immediately following this score captain Shane O Sullivan made a 30 yard break, with Ronan O Sullivan and Earls once more involved before Tim Kenneally got the touch down, which O Sullivan converted, putting Munster well ahead with a 34-6 margin. From here on the scores came thick and fast. A lightening fast break from the back of a scrum by scrum half Paul Rowley saw him score with 17 minutes gone in the second half which was followed by tries from replacement winger Edwin Torrie and flanker Robert Allen. Ulster rallied towards the end of the game and a chip from full back Owen McMurray set up Niall O Connor for a try, which McMurray converted.

However, it was certainly Keith Earls day, who finished the scoring with his third try at 28 minutes, giving Munster a comprehensive 54-13 victory over Ulster.

Obvioulsy the opposition was a bit like what it was last weekend, so we can't read too much into it, but whoever wrote that report seemed to be convinced he was a decent centre.

I believe that Niall Annett, Adam Macklin and Craig Gilroy played in the back row at school. Macklin for a considerable time, possibly even all the way to the schools cup final and Annett definately till the Schools cup final. I suspect Gilroy moved to have a higher number on his shirt at an earlier stage.

My point being that no one could say that was their best position now. Macklin did fill in for us at number 8 recently for the end of a match.

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 5:30 pm

Earls will do exactly what he is told next saturday. Luckily for us that will be as OC and the best option we have... Ale

by SecretFly Wed 21 Nov 2012, 5:40 pm

"Now Earlsie, come over here son until I tell you exactly what to do.
First you wait for it
...wait for it
...wait for it
- catch it!!!
don't lose it!
- hold onto it,
don't panic with it
.... run with it,
weave with it,
pass first defender with it,
pull in your backside to make sure you get past him with it....
head down with it,
move out to the left with it,
you're happiest there with it,
don't panic with it,
don't get pushed over the line with it,
pass when you think you can [it]...
pass it,
no don't try to run with it...
pass with it...
pass with it!...
you won't pass him with it....
pass it!!!....
pass it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
F*ck IT!!!!!

...you got that?"

"Yes, boss - I have to score as many individual brilliant tries as I can on the wing without passing it."

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 5:53 pm

As yes Fly its always easier to make things up... angel

by SecretFly Wed 21 Nov 2012, 6:04 pm

It's my job DOD Wink

There's the teamsheet guys,
the ref-watch guys,
the slo-mo replay guys,
the yesteryear guys,
the intense stat-attack guys
and the maker-upper guys.

Together we make for one big, happy, completely dysfunctional family

by The Great Aukster Wed 21 Nov 2012, 6:13 pm

Didn't Earls play 12 rather than 13 in his junior days?

ROG is obviously still being picked because the IRFU want to have the most capped player of all time being Irish, and they're not sure the sticking plaster on Drico would last that long. Since Ronan only has another 13 caps to go, maybe the IRFU will keep Kidney on as well, as they wouldn't want a new coach to suffer the sleggin he would get for selecting him?

by Sin é Wed 21 Nov 2012, 7:03 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Didn't Earls play 12 rather than 13 in his junior days?

ROG is obviously still being picked because the IRFU want to have the most capped player of all time being Irish, and they're not sure the sticking plaster on Drico would last that long. Since Ronan only has another 13 caps to go, maybe the IRFU will keep Kidney on as well, as they wouldn't want a new coach to suffer the sleggin he would get for selecting him?

I suspect that honour will go to Richie McCaw (he has 114 international caps) and the way they are going to mind him should get another 3-4 years if not more (which would be about another 30-40 caps).

Earlsie has been shifted around to accommodate less talented players - but Munster have generally left him at 13 rather than 12 (recently they put Laulala at 12 and Earls at 13). Same with Mafi, Jean de Villiers.

by Artful_Dodger Wed 21 Nov 2012, 7:06 pm

Shame they're wasting their time cause Earls is never going to cut it at 13 then isn't it.

by **Notch** Wed 21 Nov 2012, 7:27 pm

I think the example that really made me cringe with Earls was in the first couple of minutes when we had an overlap and instead of drawing the man and giving the pass to his winger Earls tried to beat the last defender on the outside and ended up kicking the ball away.

There was of course the hospital pass to Bowe as well, but the above was the most blatant example of Earls' lack of nous in the centre. It's centre play 101; commit the defender, give the pass. You might get the occasional chance for a glory break through the midfield but your main job is to occupy the defence and create space outside. He's a victim of his own abundant talent- he's been able to get the ball in his hands at lower levels and he's ripped through defences.

But at this level, if he's playing 13, linebreaks are a lot harder to come by in midfield. He needs to be creating opportunities for his wingers- simple stuff, take the ball at pace to the line, commit a defender and offload it to the man outside or a support player. Instead he's always looking to take the ball on himself and make that glory break in midfield- obviously thats part of his job and he should be taking the ball up as well, but with another ball-greedy centre in D'Arcy too many moves die in midfield. I just feel there's no balance to his game at centre. I'm not sure how many times he fed the ball to Zebo, Bowe or Trimble against the Boks and there were definitely times when it was on when he made a horlix out of it.

I've got no problem with him playing 13 if he starts playing like a 13, and proves he has the brain and skills to execute it. Because its making him look a worse player than he is. He's got a lot going for him, he's a player who's always looking for the fastest way to the line, can beat people one on one, an instinctive finisher, great footwork and great pace. But he takes wrong options in midfield and has a mediocre passing game.

What part of that doesn't suggest he's better in the back three?

by **rodders** Wed 21 Nov 2012, 7:32 pm

Hey wait I've a plan.... play along if you know the rules.... Wink

Sin I think earls really needs to play in the centre you know because he's never going to cut it as a winger.... Whistle

by Sin é Wed 21 Nov 2012, 7:44 pm

Notch wrote:I think the example that really made me cringe with Earls was in the first couple of minutes when we had an overlap and instead of drawing the man and giving the pass to his winger Earls tried to beat the last defender on the outside and ended up kicking the ball away.

First game in 5 week in an unfamilar team.

There was of course the hospital pass to Bowe as well, but the above was the most blatant example of Earls' lack of nous in the centre. It's centre play 101; commit the defender, give the pass. You might get the occasional chance for a glory break through the midfield but your main job is to occupy the defence and create space outside. He's a victim of his own abundant talent- he's been able to get the ball in his hands at lower levels and he's ripped through defences.

It wasn't that bad a pass - timing out a bit - Earls is used to passing flat to Zebo who is a bit faster than Bowe. That pass was a bit too flat for Tommy Bowe.

But at this level, if he's playing 13, linebreaks are a lot harder to come by in midfield. He needs to be creating opportunities for his wingers- simple stuff, take the ball at pace to the line, commit a defender and offload it to the man outside or a support player. Instead he's always looking to take the ball on himself and make that glory break in midfield- obviously thats part of his job and he should be taking the ball up as well, but with another ball-greedy centre in D'Arcy too many moves die in midfield. I just feel there's no balance to his game at centre. I'm not sure how many times he fed the ball to Zebo, Bowe or Trimble against the Boks and there were definitely times when it was on when he made a horlix out of it.

I've got no problem with him playing 13 if he starts playing like a 13, and proves he has the brain and skills to execute it. Because its making him look a worse player than he is. He's got a lot going for him, he's a player who's always looking for the fastest way to the line, can beat people one on one, an instinctive finisher, great footwork and great pace. But he takes wrong options in midfield and has a mediocre passing game.

The results of that theory don't add up.
Zebo scored 11 tries in 19 games last season for Munster. (generally playing outside Earls).
Craig Gilroy scored 6 tries in 29 starts playing outside Cave.

Looks like the ball used to get out to his Earls wing somehow - and Earls was outside Mafi who liked to go to ground a lot, unlike the distributing Paddy Wallace.

by Sin é Wed 21 Nov 2012, 7:46 pm

rodders wrote:Hey wait I've a plan.... play along if you know the rules....

Sin I think earls really needs to play in the centre you know because he's never going to cut it as a winger....

He can cut it anywhere on a rugby pitch (bar TH!) king

by JmD Wed 21 Nov 2012, 8:15 pm

Sin é wrote:
First game in 5 week in an unfamilar team.

Then he shouldn't have been in the team.

It wasn't that bad a pass - timing out a bit - Earls is used to passing flat to Zebo who is a bit faster than Bowe. That pass was a bit too flat for Tommy Bowe.

First of all, if he hadn't played in 5 weeks then he wasn't used to passing to anyone. Secondly, that's not how the brain works in a rugby match, it makes no sense whatsoever.

The results of that theory don't add up.
Zebo scored 11 tries in 19 games last season for Munster. (generally playing outside Earls).
Craig Gilroy scored 6 tries in 29 starts playing outside Cave.

Looks like the ball used to get out to his Earls wing somehow - and Earls was outside Mafi who liked to go to ground a lot, unlike the distributing Paddy Wallace.

Cave only started 20 games last season as he struggled with injury a lot, I would say that Gilroy actually didn't play outside him all that much (and that should be 27 starts, not 29). More importantly, try scoring is not an indication of how well the 13 distributes. I can't speak for Zebo but do you know how many of Gilroy's tries have come directly from a pass from the 13, be that Cave, Spence (RIP), Payne, Bowe, Allen or whoever? None. It bears no relevance.

by **Notch** Wed 21 Nov 2012, 8:31 pm

Sin é wrote:
The results of that theory don't add up.
Zebo scored 11 tries in 19 games last season for Munster. (generally playing outside Earls).
Craig Gilroy scored 6 tries in 29 starts playing outside Cave.

Looks like the ball used to get out to his Earls wing somehow - and Earls was outside Mafi who liked to go to ground a lot, unlike the distributing Paddy Wallace.

See, this is the annoying thing with stats; those are pretty meaningless unless you have some more specific data to back them up. That doesn't really stack up. You've just taken one stat and inferred what you wanted to out of it. There are so many factors that go towards that from 1-15 in the respective sides I can't get anything useful out of it.

The stat you're really looking for is percentage of successful passes, percentage of successful offloads and also number of overall offloads and/or passes. Or even some specific data on what they do with possession i.e. pass/run/kick. But really you should just talk about things you've observed watching the game because this is just arbitrary.

by Artful_Dodger Wed 21 Nov 2012, 8:33 pm

Notch wrote:
Sin é wrote:
The results of that theory don't add up.
Zebo scored 11 tries in 19 games last season for Munster. (generally playing outside Earls).
Craig Gilroy scored 6 tries in 29 starts playing outside Cave.

Looks like the ball used to get out to his Earls wing somehow - and Earls was outside Mafi who liked to go to ground a lot, unlike the distributing Paddy Wallace.

You've just taken one stat and inferred what you wanted to out of it.

That sums up 90% of Sin's posts to be fair.

by Sin é Wed 21 Nov 2012, 8:44 pm

JmD wrote:
Sin é wrote:
First game in 5 week in an unfamilar team.

Then he shouldn't have been in the team. Limited options.

It wasn't that bad a pass - timing out a bit - Earls is used to passing flat to Zebo who is a bit faster than Bowe. That pass was a bit too flat for Tommy Bowe.

First of all, if he hadn't played in 5 weeks then he wasn't used to passing to anyone. Secondly, that's not how the brain works in a rugby match, it makes no sense whatsoever. Most players will say that they are a bit rusty coming back from an injury. It makes sense to me.

The results of that theory don't add up.
Zebo scored 11 tries in 19 games last season for Munster. (generally playing outside Earls).
Craig Gilroy scored 6 tries in 29 starts playing outside Cave.

Looks like the ball used to get out to his Earls wing somehow - and Earls was outside Mafi who liked to go to ground a lot, unlike the distributing Paddy Wallace.

Cave only started 20 games last season as he struggled with injury a lot, I would say that Gilroy actually didn't play outside him all that much (and that should be 27 starts, not 29). More importantly, try scoring is not an indication of how well the 13 distributes. I can't speak for Zebo but do you know how many of Gilroy's tries have come directly from a pass from the 13, be that Cave, Spence (RIP), Payne, Bowe, Allen or whoever? None. It bears no relevance.

Just check - Cave & Gilroy played 20 games together last season. Cave scored 5 tries in games that Gilroy didn't score in. Does that make Cave ball greedy?

by Sin é Wed 21 Nov 2012, 8:55 pm

Notch wrote:
Sin é wrote:
The results of that theory don't add up.
Zebo scored 11 tries in 19 games last season for Munster. (generally playing outside Earls).
Craig Gilroy scored 6 tries in 29 starts playing outside Cave.

Looks like the ball used to get out to his Earls wing somehow - and Earls was outside Mafi who liked to go to ground a lot, unlike the distributing Paddy Wallace.

See, this is the annoying thing with stats; those are pretty meaningless unless you have some more specific data to back them up. That doesn't really stack up. You've just taken one stat and inferred what you wanted to out of it. There are so many factors that go towards that from 1-15 in the respective sides I can't get anything useful out of it.

The stat you're really looking for is percentage of successful passes, percentage of successful offloads and also number of overall offloads and/or passes. Or even some specific data on what they do with possession i.e. pass/run/kick. But really you should just talk about things you've observed watching the game because this is just arbitrary.

You made the point "He needs to be creating opportunities for his wingers". Earls wingers are getting opportunities somehow or other, whether he is being man-marked or whatever, he is creating opportunities/space for his wingers.

Andrew Trimble even scored in the 6Ns this year - something he hasn't done for a long time at international level.

Far more silly than using stats is selecting one bad pass, or one missed tackle in an 80 minute match and then claim a player can't pass, tackle etc.

Now, here is a video of Earls drawing his man and making the offload against decent opposition. Neither Luke Marshall or Cave could put a finger on him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkW4yZcwVwE

by MrsP Wed 21 Nov 2012, 9:07 pm

Well there you go then!

Clearly the only problem with our backs in the game against SA was that we only had one Keith Earls on the pitch.

If only we had had Earls on that wing instead of Bowe that shocking pass would have been gathered by Earls and would have been deemed to have not been forward because he was moving so fast that he would have caused time to go backwards.

Problem solved lads.

by **Notch** Wed 21 Nov 2012, 9:09 pm

Oh you are priceless.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 21 Nov 2012, 9:19 pm

Wow. Sin you never cease to amaze me. I don't know why people are putting you on ignore, because they are missing some great material! thumbsup

by Sin é Wed 21 Nov 2012, 9:37 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Wow. Sin you never cease to amaze me. I don't know why people are putting you on ignore, because they are missing some great material!

Good to see you on here Rory. I've missed you!

I think a lot of people must have Notch on ignore, because they didn't read the bull that he came out with.

by Sin é Wed 21 Nov 2012, 9:41 pm

MrsP wrote:Well there you go then!

Clearly the only problem with our backs in the game against SA was that we only had one Keith Earls on the pitch.

If only we had had Earls on that wing instead of Bowe that shocking pass would have been gathered by Earls and would have been deemed to have not been forward because he was moving so fast that he would have caused time to go backwards.

Problem solved lads.

Ah now Mrs. P. the video doesn't lie Very Happy

Keith Earls can draw a man (or two) and pass Wink

And we all know what a great defender Darren Cave is. Smile

by Thomond Wed 21 Nov 2012, 9:58 pm

Keith Earls can draw a man and pass, I would expect that of an international prop never mind a centre (our u-17s/19s can all do it pretty well like).Earls has shown flashes that he can be a good centre but not consistently, his distribution is woeful at times, it is improving but not great.

by Intotouch Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:10 pm

I don't see the problem with a player saying where he wants to play and how. So what! The problems arise when he refuses to adjust or compromise when told he won't have his way. This is not the case here or at least not that I'm aware.

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:25 pm

Ok...so Notch picks a couple of items from the game last week. Sin É provides stats and examples of when he played centre. Thpmond (who has clearly been brainwashed) then says he can be good but is not consistent. Isnt the issue that he hasnt played consistently at OC and when he does and shows promise then a lot of people(i.e Mostly the Lulster crowd) put him down. Last year it was he cant play wing it should be Trimble/Dave Kearney etc etc.

So we dont want the best player in the OC position after BOD to play OC...brilliant...

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:28 pm

DOD stop with the Munster bias....clearly there are others that are way better than Earls...you and Sin just ruin everything with Munster bias...while those of us from Leinster and Ulster display no bias at all we just clearly think our players are better...thats not bias thats just common sense.

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:32 pm

But DOD what about the evidence and stats from Sin É...dont they show that Earls is a pretty decent centre.

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:34 pm

Now DOD clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. Earls did very badly last week against SA. Clearly the backline not breaking the gainline enough was his fault.

by Thomond Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:35 pm

Brainwashed, Laugh

A Con man having a go at me, just another one I suppose..........

Earls has shown a lot of good flashes that he could be a top centre, like the moments in the Ulster game but then we get those moments like the SA game. He always seems to try and take on the man on the outside delaying the pass too long, he works on that he could be a top centre because his pace scares the shoite out of everyone. I'm just honest lads, not really brainwashed (I think Reddan is incredibly overrated and that Madigan will be better than Sexton). The whole Gilroy scored less tries than Zebo so therefore Earls is a better centre (I'm not saying he isn't, but the method used to argue it is flawed) is a load of shoite. Using a comparison with American football, it's like saying the Quarterback deserves all the credit for a guy catching a TD, and unless you're a moron, he doesn't

Using more NFL comparison,I may have found an American who could replace BOD anyway, same height, faster, and seeing as Earls underage perfromances are being used in an argument (he tackled in College/High School as a linebacker), I think he should be considered. Has a step/cut like Jason Robinson. We would need some mega cash though. Any takers?

Spoiler:

Dod, like how you're talking about yourself in the 3rd person, Portnoy esque!

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:37 pm

Ok..I see what you mean DOD. It was nothing to do with useless ball being shovelled out to him. He clearly played badly as he was only the second highest ball carrier and one of two players to beat a defender and make a clean break.

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:41 pm

Ah now DOD clearly Thomand is the right man for this arguement. He ignores the fact that even BOD in his early days couldnt pass water not to mind to his winger and if he did try a pass it usually went all over the shop...but lets ignore that and also the tries he has made as OC for other players plus being the only player as OC who should try to make an outside break (you know the classic OC move). Lets also ignore that he has scored quite a number of tries as OC.

Once you ignore all those things you can clearly see that he is a prop forward.

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:44 pm

You have me convinced DOD except for the Prop bit. He is clearly second row material....

by Thomond Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:45 pm

Is Earls really in his early days though? The guy is 25 like, and he has been playing for 5 years now, he should not be making these basic errors if he wants to be a top winger.

He has made a lot of tries for his wingers/full backs but also butchered a fair few. I think he is a decent centre alright, the whole successor to BOD and all that is moot, BOD is a once in a generation type guy. Earls could do the business at centre but he would want to start doing it soon.

Credit though, you're giving me a good laugh, some of your points make some sort of sense alright, good man for a laugh anyway.

by SecretFly Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:46 pm

funny how the 'touch downs' in American Football don't need to touch down...

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:46 pm

Thomond...

I haveonly one thing left to say to you....

Cork Con 19 - The Swimming Club 13.... Whistle

by Thomond Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:48 pm

I'm a Highfield man boy, we do most of our talking at underage rugby. Sure Con only steal the best talent from the UCC and Pres/CBC, breed very little of their own talent their underage record over the last while is rather embarassing for a club of their standing.

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:52 pm

Thomond wrote:Is Earls really in his early days though? The guy is 25 like, and he has been playing for 5 years now, he should not be making these basic errors if he wants to be a top winger.

He has made a lot of tries for his wingers/full backs but also butchered a fair few. I think he is a decent centre alright, the whole successor to BOD and all that is moot, BOD is a once in a generation type guy. Earls could do the business at centre but he would want to start doing it soon.

Credit though, you're giving me a good laugh, some of your points make some sort of sense alright, good man for a laugh anyway.

Look in all fairness the guy has been played all over the shop for the last few years yet he
1. scores tries as wing, FB, OC.
2. Scores tries as first or second receiver.
3. Does actually link well with players
4. Will pass BODs record for Tries if he continues to score at the rate he is going.
5. Yes he makes the odd mistake but its not as often as people make out (even BOD makes mistakes but not as many now because he isnt as fast

)
6. Is still the most talented player in the backline (possibly Zebo is the exception)

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:54 pm

Thomond wrote:I'm a Highfield man boy, we do most of our talking at underage rugby. Sure Con only steal the best talent from the UCC and Pres/CBC, breed very little of their own talent their underage record over the last while is rather embarassing for a club of their standing.

And we do it very well...nicking George O'Sullivan from Highfield was one of our best ones...

Ah sure Highfield I cant say anything about them as my old fella was involved with them back in the 50's circa Terry Moore. Great disco though...

by Thomond Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:55 pm

The guy has played all over the shop, it's not a bad thing though. The back three positions are becoming more and more alike. Centre is different but most guys should have close to the distribution available if they want to be a top back.

He is an electric weapon, just where he is best used is anyone's guess, no one seems to know. Could it be centre, possibly, I think he needs to improve a bit in that area though.

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 10:58 pm

Thomond wrote:The guy has played all over the shop, it's not a bad thing though. The back three positions are becoming more and more alike. Centre is different but most guys should have close to the distribution available if they want to be a top back.

He is an electric weapon, just where he is best used is anyone's guess, no one seems to know. Could it be centre, possibly, I think he needs to improve a bit in that area though.

I dont disagree but I dont think there is anyone better. Secondly with a better distributor at 10/12 for Ireland he would be better (Madigan,Hanrahan, Jackson)...

by **Notch** Wed 21 Nov 2012, 11:23 pm

DOD wrote:DOD stop with the Munster bias....clearly there are others that are way better than Earls...you and Sin just ruin everything with Munster bias...while those of us from Leinster and Ulster display no bias at all we just clearly think our players are better...thats not bias thats just common sense.

I don't think Cave is a better player than Earls, no way.

Better 13? Sure. He plays one position and he knows it inside out. He's a talented player but most importantly he's a specialist. Earls is at 25 still a rough diamond. If he came through the NZ system he'd be a world class player but he has never had the rough edges taken off his game.

I'm not arguing he should be dropped, I'm arguing he should be moved to back to the wing where he can really hurt teams.

by Sin é Wed 21 Nov 2012, 11:25 pm

DOD, fair play, I'm going to bookmark this thread so that I can cut and paste the next time the 'Earls isn't an OC' take to the messageboards!

thumbsup

by **Notch** Wed 21 Nov 2012, 11:27 pm

Like, basic things that would make him a much, much better player have never been addressed. Like most of other things, its not the talent that falls short it's the development and coaching.

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 11:35 pm

Thing is notch I don't think Cave is good enough for international..i have seen nothing to suggest he is a better player at OC than Earls. He is a good provincial player at HC standard.

by ME-109 Wed 21 Nov 2012, 11:52 pm

I often wonder when it comes to Keith Earls does he suffer from the same snobbery a lot of Young Munster players have had to put up with down the years. His father certainly suffered from it..
Before everyone howls in protest it wasn't too long ago that this behaviour existed and in certain quarters still does

by **Notch** Thu 22 Nov 2012, 12:04 am

DOD wrote:Thing is notch I don't think Cave is good enough for international..i have seen nothing to suggest he is a better player at OC than Earls. He is a good provincial player at HC standard.

Well thats the conundrum. Do you take a good provincial player who knows his position inside out, or a very talented utility back who blows hot and cold?

For me, some of the stuff Earls does wrong is outweighing the good things he does bring right now. I see less cost in using him on the wing tbh. No one with a number higher than 10 looks particularly good for us for reasons we've pretty much exhausted talking about then some, so you'd say thats a factor but as much as he 'hates' playing 11 he's been much more effective there in his test career. 9, 10, 12 and 13 we are pedestrian. Shouldn't be afraid to try something new.

by **rodders** Thu 22 Nov 2012, 12:11 am

DOD wrote:I often wonder when it comes to Keith Earls does he suffer from the same snobbery a lot of Young Munster players have had to put up with down the years. His father certainly suffered from it..
Before everyone howls in protest it wasn't too long ago that this behaviour existed and in certain quarters still does

That's funny because I've often wondered has Earls benefited from positive discrimination because of the snobbery that his father faced.

He's a good player in several positions because of his versatility and pace but not an international starter for me in a million years. A talented but limited player who's had far too many chances in my book.

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