Toby Flood might not be fit for the NZ game.

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Toby Flood is a doubt for England's Test against New Zealand
England fly-half Toby Flood is a doubt for England's Test against New Zealand on December 1 but did not break a toe in Saturday's 16-15 loss to South Africa, as first feared.

Leicester man Flood, 27, kicked two penalties at Twickenham but was forced from the pitch after 47 minutes and replaced by Owen Farrell.

"It doesn't look great," Flood later admitted in his newspaper column.

However Flood had an X-ray after the game which ruled out a break.

The player will have more tests on Sunday to establish what further treatment is needed.

Farrell kicked a trio of penalties but failed to prevent England's second successive narrow defeat in the autumn internationals.

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Will this mean that Owen Farrell will start but who will be on the bench?

Do you think that Freddie Burns will get a chance. or will Lancaster simply move Goode to cover the 10 spot form the bench. Which would meen Mike Brown going to cover full back and another winger being brought in right?

Discuss.

I can't see Burns being brought in, however he is very much on SL's radar being brought in to train with the squad whenever possible.

I would love to see him on the bench, we might as well just go for it.

If Flood is out, Farrell will start and Burns will be on the bench.

If Farrell starts, then Dickson should partner him with Care on the bench. If, heaven forbid, Burns starts then I have no issue with Care or Youngs starting. (Though from a selfish point of view would love Benny back at WR for the clash with Barffffff)

If Flood isn't fit, we should drop Farrell and bring in Cipriani to start and Burns on the bench.

I don't care what people say it's about time we had a fly half who stands flat and takes on the gain line, we need players like Tuilagi running onto the ball with pace into space.

Flood has made some shocking decisions this Autumn, if England want to move forward our fly half needs to be more influential on how we play.

Why Cipriani? He was outplayed yesterday.

And I don't think we can just drop and replace a fully fit Farrell from the squad.

EnglishReign wrote:Why Cipriani? He was outplayed yesterday.

+!
Cipriani was awful against gloucester - and other than a decent 20 minutes against the Blues has been awful all season. If you are selecting him based on something he did 4 1/2 years ago - hell why not bring back Iain Balshaw as well. He played all right that day.

Cipriani
Robshaw...have you seen how deep fareell, Hodgson, and Wilkinson stand? And where Flood stands? To claim he doesnt play flat is just weird. I know youre desperate to deflect attention from your idols failings but making things up is not very nice.


Ford and Burns are the Saxons Fly Halves, it would be one of those. Its a problem for England though, Farrells form has been really iffy all season and he has always failed to give anything to the backline to work with (although he did kick with confidence again at least)

The other option would be ( and Lancaster used to do this regualarly with the Saxons) to not have a second out and out fly half, using Goode or evven 36 as cover. However I suspect with Farrels iffy form he'd want a second proper 10.

Not impossible theyd look back to Hodgosn to "do a job" yet again. Its a favourite past time of England managers

I still like Andy Goode, always felt it was cause he looked a bit podgy he wasn't liked in England. He played well yesterday, and kicked his goals too. Why not have him as a starter?

OzT wrote:I still like Andy Goode, always felt it was cause he looked a bit podgy he wasn't liked in England. He played well yesterday, and kicked his goals too. Why not have him as a starter?

Shhh! Please! We need him at Worcester! He's our secret weapon! Everyone underrates him - he tackles well, distributes well, makes a general nuisance of himself and kicks his goals. But everyone likes a good pie joke...
We'll keep him thanks!

Andy Goode and Danny Cipriani are seriously being considered?

Let's be honest it's currently Burns vs Farrell.

Probably Burns should start - bit of a gamble but Farrell is not creative enough.

robshaw4england wrote:If Flood isn't fit, we should drop Farrell and bring in Cipriani to start and Burns on the bench.

I don't care what people say it's about time we had a fly half who stands flat and takes on the gain line, we need players like Tuilagi running onto the ball with pace into space.

Flood has made some shocking decisions this Autumn, if England want to move forward our fly half needs to be more influential on how we play.

i'm with you here. There is no way Burns is ready for England or even international class. He needs to stay at Gloucester and play Sarries this weekend

HongKongCherry wrote:

robshaw4england wrote:If Flood isn't fit, we should drop Farrell and bring in Cipriani to start and Burns on the bench.

I don't care what people say it's about time we had a fly half who stands flat and takes on the gain line, we need players like Tuilagi running onto the ball with pace into space.

Flood has made some shocking decisions this Autumn, if England want to move forward our fly half needs to be more influential on how we play.

i'm with you here. There is no way Burns is ready for England or even international class. He needs to stay at Gloucester and play Sarries this weekend

No no no. Saint Billy,Sharples and Burns should all start against NZ. Heck call up Jonny May and JSD too.

Drop the much maligned Sarries guys.

Don't you guys want Cips???? Why not, nothing to lose and he at least will have had some experience of playing the kiwis.. and my be his game this weekend!

OzT wrote:nothing to lose

The game?
Our dignity?
The rest of the team quitting?

HA HA HA HA HA H!!!!!!

Oh gawn, give the block a bash, looks like it's a game England's expected to lose anyway, on this forum at least, give him one shot and then you'd know what to do with the bloke, if he is to be considered again at all

Can we merge all the England v NZ threads please?

beshocked wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:

robshaw4england wrote:If Flood isn't fit, we should drop Farrell and bring in Cipriani to start and Burns on the bench.

I don't care what people say it's about time we had a fly half who stands flat and takes on the gain line, we need players like Tuilagi running onto the ball with pace into space.

Flood has made some shocking decisions this Autumn, if England want to move forward our fly half needs to be more influential on how we play.

i'm with you here. There is no way Burns is ready for England or even international class. He needs to stay at Gloucester and play Sarries this weekend

No no no. Saint Billy,Sharples and Burns should all start against NZ. Heck call up Jonny May and JSD too.

Drop the much maligned Sarries guys.

Even though he's currently on crutches, he'll still be better than Ashton!

OzT wrote:HA HA HA HA HA H!!!!!!

Oh gawn, give the block a bash, looks like it's a game England's expected to lose anyway, on this forum at least, give him one shot and then you'd know what to do with the bloke, if he is to be considered again at all

But he has done absolutely nothing to deserve a shot. He was woeful against Gloucester and his poor decision making directly led to 9 of the points. The sad truth is that since his injury he has never been the same player, but that period also coincides with him pretty much always playing behind a weaker pack give him back foot ball. If this hinders his game at club level, he will not be able to cope with it an international level.

beshocked wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:

robshaw4england wrote:If Flood isn't fit, we should drop Farrell and bring in Cipriani to start and Burns on the bench.

I don't care what people say it's about time we had a fly half who stands flat and takes on the gain line, we need players like Tuilagi running onto the ball with pace into space.

Flood has made some shocking decisions this Autumn, if England want to move forward our fly half needs to be more influential on how we play.

i'm with you here. There is no way Burns is ready for England or even international class. He needs to stay at Gloucester and play Sarries this weekend

No no no. Saint Billy,Sharples and Burns should all start against NZ. Heck call up Jonny May and JSD too.

Drop the much maligned Sarries guys.

At least two of them are demonstrably out of their depth at international level.

None of the Sarries players are out of their depth in the England squad.

Personally I do not think that Farrell has the game needed (right now) nor enough experience to start at 10 for England, but he has never looked out of his depth.

LondonTiger wrote:None of the Sarries players are out of their depth in the England squad.Personally I do not think that Farrell has the game needed (right now) nor enough experience to start at 10 for England, but he has never looked out of his depth.

I beg to differ.

You are entitled to your opinion - warning tongue in cheek bit coming - no matter how wrong

No HKCherry he has not done much for sure, but whilst he is available I think there will always be people who thinks he may be the messiah, so why not, in a game with nothing to lose, give it a go? at least for 35 minutes or so, that will either shut people up for good or turn out to be a revelation

Also against glos he was maybe ahead of his team mates in thinking??? ( being kind here )

Farrel has the menatlity for tests, just not the all round ability or form currently. It depends what you mean out of his depth, he genrally looks comforatble out there even if hes being useless...unlike Vunipola who was visibly nervy and off his game.

OzT wrote:No HKCherry he has not done much for sure, but whilst he is available I think there will always be people who thinks he may be the messiah, so why not, in a game with nothing to lose, give it a go? at least for 35 minutes or so, that will either shut people up for good or turn out to be a revelation

Also against glos he was maybe ahead of his team mates in thinking??? ( being kind here )

Nah he was just Carp.

OzT wrote:No HKCherry he has not done much for sure, but whilst he is available I think there will always be people who thinks he may be the messiah, so why not, in a game with nothing to lose, give it a go? at least for 35 minutes or so, that will either shut people up for good or turn out to be a revelation

Also against glos he was maybe ahead of his team mates in thinking??? ( being kind here )

I don't know how much AP rugby you watch but trust me, Cipriani is not playing well. I never really understood the hype but as it stands he is behind Flood, Farrell, Burns, Ford in the pecking order.

I suspect Tom Heathcote has more chance of playing for England right now

Not an awful lot, AP that is, just the highlights on Sunday nights. But only a couple of weeks ago he did play a blinder, ok, last weekend he was poor.

I only brought his name in as he was a bit of an unknown quantity when he went to Oz after MJ discarded him, and now he's back there will sure be voices for him to be given a bash, and I was thinking of this game then to shut or prove everyone.

My choice would be Burns then Goode if a replacement is required, in that order, over Farrel.

gonna be honest i dont mind if he isnt fit- I prefer farrel!!

yep i may be in a minority here- but the lad just looks so up for it- And i think he is a better kicker in all honesty..

OzT wrote:No HKCherry he has not done much for sure, but whilst he is available I think there will always be people who thinks he may be the messiah, so why not, in a game with nothing to lose, give it a go? at least for 35 minutes or so, that will either shut people up for good or turn out to be a revelation

Also against glos he was maybe ahead of his team mates in thinking??? ( being kind here )

But why? He hasn't done anything to deserve that chance. There are numerous other players who deserve the opportunity ahead of him. There is no doubt in his youth he was a better player, but he has been worked out since then and seems to want to force games far too much. I know there are people who think he is the messiah - but they are either deluded or besotted!

ESPN have just confirmed Flood will be ruled out.

He is not the messiah.

He's a very naughty boy.