Which doubles pair would win?

If Federer and Murray teamed up against Nadal and Djokovic, who do you think would come out on top?

Federer and Murray are my favourites out of those 4 but I'm not sure how certain it is they would win. Although I think Fed and Murray have the best net skills, I'm don't think that Djokovic and Nadal are miles off and you'd imagine they'd work together better.

I think 7 times out of ten it would probably be Nadal and Djokovic because it would be hard to imagine a ball they could not reach between them, but on a sublime Fed day and on a fully concentrating Muzza day, then I would go with TMF and Murray because of maybe having the edge with instinctive net play and quick hands.

Good question. Hard to look beyond Murray and Federer winning this. Both fully comfortable with an all court game. Speed isn't so important at doubles, where most points are ended at the net.

An interesting poser. Given the strength of Nadal's FH and Djokovic's BH they would be some team - holding serve would be a nightmare against them. Nadal is also a very adept volleyer, Djokovic less so but boy has he improved there. I'd go with them winning more often than not. However, if it was indoors it might tip back the other way...a little.

Would be great to see. Such a shame the top guys don't play it much anymore.

Djokovic & Nadal did once pair up in Toronto & were beaten by Raonic & Pospisil (I think, or maybe it was Dancevic).

I've no idea who would win, but it would be fun to watch, that's for sure.

Very interesting question. Federer and Murray are the better pair at the net but would it actually be possible to hit winners past Nadal and Djokovic together? Hmmm. I'd probably say Nadal and Djokovic in the end but it would be a great match to watch.

One for the 2025 "Seniors Tour" I imagine...

I think Nadal & Djokovic though I have fears they might trip one another over on the base line . Its a match I would just love to see however

Two defensive baseline grinders vs the best all court player in the game and another very adept net player.

Fed-Murray for sure.

You can't retrieve your way to victory in doubles.

And has anyone seen Novak's overheads? WTA players would be embarrassed by them.

Don't even get me started on his volleying.

I still think I take my chances with Nadal.. he has won 8 doubles titles so I think he has a little "know how" .. He does use his doubles matches to assist his volleying and net skills so I dont think it will be all about retrieval. But then on the other hand Fed has got his gold medal

Fed and Murray almost every time, not even a trace of doubt in my mind. They're the two players best suited to doubles out of the four, and if either of them are on their game then it'd be over quite quickly. Not to mention that tactics come into the doubles game in a big way, and I think that Federer (then Murray) is very tactically adept when it comes to reading play.

I think Novak and Rafa are too good to get blown off court, but they'd be up against it!

I don't agree Murray and Federer are best suited. Nadal is a highly adept all court player. Also, don't underestimate the importance of returning and drilling ground strokes in modern doubles. The Bryan Brothers volley just about as well as anyone but when they face good singles players in doubles they struggle to cope with their power off the ground.

Anyway, looking at their doubles W:L records is interesting:

Nadal is 98-59 (62.4%)
Federer is 120-80 (60.0%)
Djokovic is 31-45 (40.8%)
Murray is 46-55 (45.5%)

If for no other reason than curiosity we combine these we get:
Nadal + Djokovic = 129-104 (55.4%)
Federer + Murray = 166-135 (55.1%)

So Nadal/Djokovic have it by 0.3%...it's a clear victory! Lol.

Now, if you put Nadal+Federer vs. Murray+Djokovic it would be much more of a mismatch.

Nadal an all-court player, that's just derisory. He's an all out baseliner. End of. If occasionally venturing to the net to put away easy volleys makes you an all court player then the term has absolutely no value or meaning.

lydian

That's interesting. Nadal is the king of the stats. He even beats Federer at doubles! I would love to see both Nadal and Federer on the same team. I think Nadal has said the same but so far Federer has given him the cold shoulder... Maybe when they have both retired they could pair up and win a few Wimbledon titles together?

As far as the original poll question. I think Federer would accuse break_in_the_fifth of draw fixing. How come the one time he wants Djokovic, Nadal gets him? Ha ha!

Hawky, are you gonna post some more false stats?



emancipator

emancipator wrote:Nadal an all-court player, that's just derisory. He's an all out baseliner. End of. If occasionally venturing to the net to put away easy volleys makes you an all court player then the term has absolutely no value or meaning.

Nadal is great at the net. Just ask McEnroe and Navratalova two players who were pretty nifty at the net themselves as I've often heard them comment on how good he is. But why would he choose to go there when he's got that unique topspin forehand to show off with at the back of the court.

emancipator wrote:Nadal an all-court player, that's just derisory. He's an all out baseliner. End of. If occasionally venturing to the net to put away easy volleys makes you an all court player then the term has absolutely no value or meaning.

Puts away EASY volleys... oh give it up ep... as with all players some may be easy .. ive seen Rafa run from the back of the court and put away a volley... Easy ???? your kidding right ??? I have watched Novak shake his head in disbelief ... easy my foot.

emancipator wrote:Hawky, are you gonna post some more false stats?



emancipator

Why would anyone post false stats? The real ones are far more interesting.

Emancipator, Nadal is a very adept volleyer. McEnroe thinks he's the best out of the top 4. He's said this twice now. You don't get a higher % win:loss in doubles than Federer by just being able to put away easy volleys. Rafa has amazing hands around the net, I know it doesn't fit with the grinder tag people want to stick on him but some of the skills he displays are sublime. He's also great at the stealth volley...ghosting in when the opponent has been pinned back.

Do you think he's the best volleyer of the top four, lydian? Just curious.

I think he's on a par with Federer, better than Murray or Djokovic.

Nadal volley practice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btRArg47pmE
His technique is textbook.

Nad/Fed playing same shot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRzi94AaTpY

This isn't skilful volleying? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2cBKEaknQI

Oh, I'm not denying that he's a good volleyer, I believe that his execution is excellent in most situations. I was just wondering whether you agreed with Mac personally. Cheers for those vids too!

Hard to call between three of them. I'd think most people would agree Djokovic is the weakest.

McEnroe said that when he was riding the Nadal bandwagon in 2010.

He probably thinks JJ is now the best volleyer on tour.

McEnroe's views change like the wind.

Rafa has good soft hands around the net but he rarely takes on difficult volleys. Rarely plays punch volleys. Most of his volleys are drop volleys when the opponent is far off the court. It is a joke to suggest that Nadal is a better vollleyer than Federer, which is what your statement above implies.
I think Rafa is a good volleyer but no better than maybe half a dozen or so in the top 20 or 30.

In any case, being a good volleyer and being an all court player are not one and the same. Rafa usually only ventures to the net when he already has the point virtually won. He doesn't take the initiative (or very rarely does) and use net play as an additional dimension to his baseline game the way Federer does. Federer can transition effortlessly from the baseline to the fore court and he's not afraid of taking on the toughest of volleys.

A couple of youtube clips doesn't prove anything. Fed has a career worth of volleys and net play. Rafa doesn't compare.

You really should take your blinkers off. In your world rafa seems to be the best at everything. Best FH, best movement, best volleys. I suppose he has the best serve too?

Even the clip that you posted, how are the two volleys the same?

Similar yes, but not the same.

Fed is stretching to his Right and reaching for the ball. The ball is coming at an angle and with pace. Fed drops it perfectly over the net.

Rafa's is clearly easier. The ball is closer and slightly in front of him.

You think Nadal could do this kind of stuff around the net?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc3vXFHZWuA

And that's just one example that came to mind.

Or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEn-jUY2TpU

I think Nadal's technique is fantastic and he also has an excellent tactical brain for net approach. I agree with Lydian that his execution is as good as Fed's in many instances, but it's true that he doesn't take on as many outright difficult volleys as Federer. Obviously a lot of that is due to their respective games - would Nadal be able to make the volleys that Federer does if he came in more often than he does, and got more practice on them? Hard to say, but we'll never know.

Ultimately, they're both excellent. Nadal is very solid and rarely gives his opponent a chance on the volley, but Federer's better at picking up tough ones and has more variety when at the net. He's also got a phenomenal overhead, if that factors in (as general net play). I also think Nadal's forehand volley is significantly weaker than his backhand, though that's just from what I've seen and I don't have any stats to back up the viewpoint. On the other hand, Nadal's drop volleys and touch are magnificent.

I'd say Fed is superior overall, but Nadal's definitely not 'just a baseliner'. And they're both better than the other two.

emancipator wrote:

You really should take your blinkers off (Lydian). In your world rafa seems to be the best at everything. Best FH, best movement, best volleys. I suppose he has the best serve too?

Emancipator

Why do some Federer fans get so annoyed whenever anyone says anything good about Nadal.

You can say all you want Eman, but I've watched a lot of Nadal play and I think I know where his strengths and weaknesses are

As for you putting words in Lydian's mouth, give us a break. Putting words in people's mouths, and then ridiculing their non-existent opinion is frankly pathetic.

Has Lydian said Nadal is the best at everything? No.
Has Lydian said Nadal has the best FH? No, but I remember in a thread Lydian saying Rafa has a lethal forehand which is very effective; (IIRC said both Rafa's and Roger's FH are superb, but in different ways).
Has Lydian said Nadal has the best movement? No, I have certainly not seen that. One thing is true though, Nadal is a fantastic mover, especially on clay.
Has Lydian said Rafa has the best volley? NO. We're just discussing 4 players here, and Lydian said he has said he is not even the outright best out of this 4, saying he is with Federer, both above Murray and Djokovic.
And also, you do realise there are other players outside the top 4??? For example I'm sure Lydian would agree with me that Llodra is a better volley-er than Nadal.
And of course Nadal doesn't have the best serve, what a stupid proposition that is.

climb out

Silver wrote:I think Nadal's technique is fantastic and he also has an excellent tactical brain for net approach. I agree with Lydian that his execution is as good as Fed's in many instances, but it's true that he doesn't take on as many outright difficult volleys as Federer. Obviously a lot of that is due to their respective games - would Nadal be able to make the volleys that Federer does if he came in more often than he does, and got more practice on them? Hard to say, but we'll never know.

Ultimately, they're both excellent. Nadal is very solid and rarely gives his opponent a chance on the volley, but Federer's better at picking up tough ones and has more variety when at the net. He's also got a phenomenal overhead, if that factors in (as general net play). I also think Nadal's forehand volley is significantly weaker than his backhand, though that's just from what I've seen and I don't have any stats to back up the viewpoint. On the other hand, Nadal's drop volleys and touch are magnificent.

I'd say Fed is superior overall, but Nadal's definitely not 'just a baseliner'. And they're both better than the other two.

That really is superb analysis Silver

You are a fantastic poster, it's a pleasure to read your posts, you should post more here for sure
Personally I agree with you, I think Federer is a marginally better volleyer than Nadal, but conversely I have seen Federer missing some really simply volleys over the years that Rafa wouldn't miss.

It Must Be Love wrote:

emancipator wrote:

You really should take your blinkers off (Lydian). In your world rafa seems to be the best at everything. Best FH, best movement, best volleys. I suppose he has the best serve too?

Emancipator

Why do some Federer fans get so annoyed whenever anyone says anything good about Nadal.

You can say all you want Eman, but I've watched a lot of Nadal play and I think I know where his strengths and weaknesses are

As for you putting words in Lydian's mouth, give us a break. Putting words in people's mouths, and then ridiculing their non-existent opinion is frankly pathetic.

Has Lydian said Nadal is the best at everything? No.
Has Lydian said Nadal has the best FH? No, but I remember in a thread Lydian saying Rafa has a lethal forehand which is very effective; (IIRC said both Rafa's and Roger's FH are superb, but in different ways).
Has Lydian said Nadal has the best movement? No, I have certainly not seen that. One thing is true though, Nadal is a fantastic mover, especially on clay.
Has Lydian said Rafa has the best volley? NO. We're just discussing 4 players here, and Lydian said he has said he is not even the outright best out of this 4, saying he is with Federer, both above Murray and Djokovic.
And also, you do realise there are other players outside the top 4??? For example I'm sure Lydian would agree with me that Llodra is a better volley-er than Nadal.
And of course Nadal doesn't have the best serve, what a stupid proposition that is.

Ok, don't get your knickers in a twist.



rotapicname

It Must Be Love wrote:

emancipator wrote:

You really should take your blinkers off (Lydian). In your world rafa seems to be the best at everything. Best FH, best movement, best volleys. I suppose he has the best serve too?

Emancipator

Why do some Federer fans get so annoyed whenever anyone says anything good about Nadal.

You can say all you want Eman, but I've watched a lot of Nadal play and I think I know where his strengths and weaknesses are

As for you putting words in Lydian's mouth, give us a break. Putting words in people's mouths, and then ridiculing their non-existent opinion is frankly pathetic.

Has Lydian said Nadal is the best at everything? No.
Has Lydian said Nadal has the best FH? No, but I remember in a thread Lydian saying Rafa has a lethal forehand which is very effective; (IIRC said both Rafa's and Roger's FH are superb, but in different ways).
Has Lydian said Nadal has the best movement? No, I have certainly not seen that. One thing is true though, Nadal is a fantastic mover, especially on clay.
Has Lydian said Rafa has the best volley? NO. We're just discussing 4 players here, and Lydian said he has said he is not even the outright best out of this 4, saying he is with Federer, both above Murray and Djokovic.
And also, you do realise there are other players outside the top 4??? For example I'm sure Lydian would agree with me that Llodra is a better volley-er than Nadal.
And of course Nadal doesn't have the best serve, what a stupid proposition that is.

But... but isn't Nadal the best at anything?

hawkeye wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

emancipator wrote:

You really should take your blinkers off (Lydian). In your world rafa seems to be the best at everything. Best FH, best movement, best volleys. I suppose he has the best serve too?

Emancipator

Why do some Federer fans get so annoyed whenever anyone says anything good about Nadal.

You can say all you want Eman, but I've watched a lot of Nadal play and I think I know where his strengths and weaknesses are

As for you putting words in Lydian's mouth, give us a break. Putting words in people's mouths, and then ridiculing their non-existent opinion is frankly pathetic.

Has Lydian said Nadal is the best at everything? No.
Has Lydian said Nadal has the best FH? No, but I remember in a thread Lydian saying Rafa has a lethal forehand which is very effective; (IIRC said both Rafa's and Roger's FH are superb, but in different ways).
Has Lydian said Nadal has the best movement? No, I have certainly not seen that. One thing is true though, Nadal is a fantastic mover, especially on clay.
Has Lydian said Rafa has the best volley? NO. We're just discussing 4 players here, and Lydian said he has said he is not even the outright best out of this 4, saying he is with Federer, both above Murray and Djokovic.
And also, you do realise there are other players outside the top 4??? For example I'm sure Lydian would agree with me that Llodra is a better volley-er than Nadal.
And of course Nadal doesn't have the best serve, what a stupid proposition that is.

But... but isn't Nadal the best at anything?

No of course not how can he be... Roger is the best at everything

hawkeye wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

emancipator wrote:

You really should take your blinkers off (Lydian). In your world rafa seems to be the best at everything. Best FH, best movement, best volleys. I suppose he has the best serve too?

Emancipator

Why do some Federer fans get so annoyed whenever anyone says anything good about Nadal.

You can say all you want Eman, but I've watched a lot of Nadal play and I think I know where his strengths and weaknesses are

As for you putting words in Lydian's mouth, give us a break. Putting words in people's mouths, and then ridiculing their non-existent opinion is frankly pathetic.

Has Lydian said Nadal is the best at everything? No.
Has Lydian said Nadal has the best FH? No, but I remember in a thread Lydian saying Rafa has a lethal forehand which is very effective; (IIRC said both Rafa's and Roger's FH are superb, but in different ways).
Has Lydian said Nadal has the best movement? No, I have certainly not seen that. One thing is true though, Nadal is a fantastic mover, especially on clay.
Has Lydian said Rafa has the best volley? NO. We're just discussing 4 players here, and Lydian said he has said he is not even the outright best out of this 4, saying he is with Federer, both above Murray and Djokovic.
And also, you do realise there are other players outside the top 4??? For example I'm sure Lydian would agree with me that Llodra is a better volley-er than Nadal.
And of course Nadal doesn't have the best serve, what a stupid proposition that is.

But... but isn't Nadal the best at anything?

He has many superb attributes. It is difficult to compare shots from different generations, as technology has changed so much.
This is a skills analysis I did with Nadal and Federer I did a few years ago on 606:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A72836788

Emancipator, seems you're the one getting your knickers in a twist whilst knocking down strawmen I never built. Mac said better. I just said Nadal is on a par with Federer. That means similar, not better. His technique is similar. It just is. They use and are adept at different types of volleys. They play different games clearly. But I never said "better". You did. Comprende?

But we get it emancipator...Nadal is just an average Joe Soap player, an ok FH, poor BH, not too bad at running around, able to play the odd drop shot. Amazing how he racked up 11 slams across all surfaces, and established a huge H2H over Federer given all these obvious shortcomings in only being able to scamper around at the back of the court. Given his ability is so lacklustre and average, his record is anything but average. Maybe it's just his FH then? Oh but hang on, thats just some weird, whippy windshield shot right? Probably not even top20. Lord knows how he won all those doubles matches too, he must have stayed back and ran around a bit marvelling at the other players volley skills, especially those half a dozen top20 others you mention who are better than him.

Yes IMBL, Llodra is likely the best volleyer on tour - but surely not better than Edberg-like-Federer? The ultimate fast court player - he could show Henman, Kafelnikov or Rafter a thing or two about volleying.

Lord, what was I thinking trying to say Nadal wasn't a bad volleyer

Fed-Murray will win 7/10 times coz of their net play and better 1st serve.

I don't think so the match would even be close, on full flow it would be easy win for Fed/Muzza pair if not it would be easy win for Novak/Rafa pair, but yes it would be interesting to watch thou, may be they can do it for charity.

I love that a hypothetical and essentially fun question like this can still result in disagreements and tribalism. Love it. Great passion.

I think Murray and Federer because they have a bit more variety than Novak and Rafa. And slightly more penetrating first serves. But it'd sure be fun, and there'd be some great tennis on show.

Surely in terms of 'buddies' the match up would be more likely to be Andy & Nole vs Roger and Rafa wouldn't it? Now that would be tough to call. A lot tougher than the one in this article in my opinion.

It Must Be Love wrote:

hawkeye wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

emancipator wrote:

You really should take your blinkers off (Lydian). In your world rafa seems to be the best at everything. Best FH, best movement, best volleys. I suppose he has the best serve too?

Emancipator

Why do some Federer fans get so annoyed whenever anyone says anything good about Nadal.

You can say all you want Eman, but I've watched a lot of Nadal play and I think I know where his strengths and weaknesses are

As for you putting words in Lydian's mouth, give us a break. Putting words in people's mouths, and then ridiculing their non-existent opinion is frankly pathetic.

Has Lydian said Nadal is the best at everything? No.
Has Lydian said Nadal has the best FH? No, but I remember in a thread Lydian saying Rafa has a lethal forehand which is very effective; (IIRC said both Rafa's and Roger's FH are superb, but in different ways).
Has Lydian said Nadal has the best movement? No, I have certainly not seen that. One thing is true though, Nadal is a fantastic mover, especially on clay.
Has Lydian said Rafa has the best volley? NO. We're just discussing 4 players here, and Lydian said he has said he is not even the outright best out of this 4, saying he is with Federer, both above Murray and Djokovic.
And also, you do realise there are other players outside the top 4??? For example I'm sure Lydian would agree with me that Llodra is a better volley-er than Nadal.
And of course Nadal doesn't have the best serve, what a stupid proposition that is.

But... but isn't Nadal the best at anything?

He has many superb attributes. It is difficult to compare shots from different generations, as technology has changed so much.
This is a skills analysis I did with Nadal and Federer I did a few years ago on 606:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A72836788

Tut..tut....IMBL,

We appreciate that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and, as such, we applaud your efforts at climbing onto our intellectual shoulders

But you really should have added the caveat that your 'Skills Analysis' was merely an attempt to piggy-back on the success of our highly acclaimed piece: 'Federer vs Nadal - Skills Comparison'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A68445471

Well actually SH, I did mention you and your schizophrenic mad hatter main event lads in my article:
Part of my article:

We have already had a skills analysis between these two players, however i felt that article might have been using some bias as Federer beat Nadal in every department and Rafa had a 0 rating in some.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A72836788

So you can take that back

handbags ladies

It Must Be Love wrote:Well actually SH, I did mention you and your schizophrenic mad hatter main event lads in my article:
Part of my article:

We have already had a skills analysis between these two players, however i felt that article might have been using some bias as Federer beat Nadal in every department and Rafa had a 0 rating in some.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A72836788

So you can take that back

We saw that particular comment, referring to our previous 'Skills Comparison', but noticed that you didn't directly acknowledge the source of said article.

Don't worry IMBL - you are forgiven

It Must Be Love wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A72836788

That was indeed a good article, just guessing how much you have changed with time from being a polite friendly poster to ultra aggressive poster with no essence of writing.

lol IC, what is it I said which turned me into an evil villain

Spaghetti-Hans wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:Well actually SH, I did mention you and your schizophrenic mad hatter main event lads in my article:
Part of my article:

We have already had a skills analysis between these two players, however i felt that article might have been using some bias as Federer beat Nadal in every department and Rafa had a 0 rating in some.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A72836788

So you can take that back

We saw that particular comment, referring to our previous 'Skills Comparison', but noticed that you didn't directly acknowledge the source of said article.

Don't worry IMBL - you are forgiven

Thanks

Federer and Murray are the better volleyers, and Federer has the outstanding serve, so they should be favourites.

Federer' returns could be a weakness but I think Murray could return as well as any of them.

Im sure Novak and Rafa will just keep pummelling away at the Fed BH...

may be harder to find if he is on the deuce court side, hello feds forehand

Oh so you dont think I was having a cheap shot LS wow

I just dont agree Murray is a better volleyer than Nadal. His doubles record isnt great..

I believe he used to come into the net more but think a change has been made by Lendl who recognises Andy's game is stronger from the back.
Interestingly when you look at the USO12 final he won, he stayed back far more than Djokovic when you look at net approaches.

Murray: 16 of 24 = 67 %
Djokovic: 39 of 56 = 70 %

24 net approaches in 5 hours play (and around approx. 320 total points) isnt much.
Similarly, in the Wimbledon final vs Federer, he came to the net 50% fewer times and only won 62% of those vs 78% for Federer.