About v2Magna Cop Out
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pioden gorllewin
munkian
bedfordwelsh
Casartelli
Impossible Standards
Irish Londoner
Morgannwg
dogtooth
Cyril
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler
Luckless Pedestrian
Glas a du
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: Club Rugby
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Magna Cop Out
by Glas a du Tue 04 Dec 2012, 11:56 pm
First topic message reminder :
King John had a spot of bother with his Barons. To try and solve it he drew up Magna Carta...
I have received a joint press release from the WRU and the Regions. It's embargoed; there's posh. That usually means its quite important. Magna Carta however it is not, more like Magna Cop Out.
"A professional body created to strengthen and develop professional rugby in Wales, both on and off the field, is being established by the WRU and the four Welsh Regions."
The board will consist of four members of the WRU, four members of the Regions and an Independent Chair. More money will be made available to the Regions from the WRU centrally as a result.
There are eight "definitive objectives":
1 maximise performance of the national teams
2 improve the financial management of the Regions
3 retain senior Welsh internationals playing in Wales
4 develop Welsh international players
5 achieve four Regions which can effectively compete at the top of European rugby within five years
6 support the Principality Premiership
7 support and develop the community game
8 ensure sustainability of the Millennium Stadium.
Fine aims, but where is the debit? We all know the rules of double accounting, for every credit, there must be a debit, even when there is apparently more money available.
Who will lose out? All of these aims will take money to achieve. Where will that money come from? Is it being deflected from paying down the WRU's debts? Is it based on projections from when Wales have been doing relatively well on the field recently?
It seems to me that the aims are contradictory. We have already seen that the WRU will arrange extra autumn games irrespective of the Regions' European endeavours; the sustainability of the Millennium Stadium trumping the European aspirations of the Regions, for the second year running.
That however is the obvious example.
There is a strong case for saying that Welsh international players develop better in the French league, or even the English league. The Regions can develop homegrown talent to take the place of the stars who have moved away, their wage bills are less which helps their finances.
This doesn't sit neatly with winning the European Cup though.
To do that you need to splash out, gambling that if you achieve success that will put in train a virtuous circle.
You could do that by competing with foreign clubs for Welsh players under aim 3, and then watch them being injured playing for Wales and be unavailable at crucial points in the season due to Wales squad training.
Or, you could compete with England and France for the best semi retired Southern Hemisphere players, which avoids that predicament, but puts future Welsh stars that need game time at the highest level on the bench.
All this misses the point though. The list is a sop. A populist set of desires. Paying lip service, trying to keep everybody happy. I hope the new board realise that they won't be able to do all of the above, and find their priorities.
Welsh rugby is as feudal as medieval Britain. In a feudal system, when the King is broke he puts pressure on the Barons, they pass that pressure downwards to the next tier and so on as far as they can, but also try to put it back on the King. That is exactly what has happened since regionalisation. The WRU as King set up the fiefdoms of the regions and all parties have been involved in a classic power struggle since. After Magna Carta, King John carried on in much the same vein as he had before. The friction points between him and the Barons were exactly the same as they had been before.
And that is precisely what will happen to this latter day accord. Everybody talks about common purposes, but give it a few weeks and the old cracks will appear.
The WRU either have to give the Regions their independence or take their management in house in a franchise system. This proposed compromise will not resolve the fundamental power struggle at the heart of professional rugby in Wales.
http://v2journal.com/magna-cop-out.html
King John had a spot of bother with his Barons. To try and solve it he drew up Magna Carta...
I have received a joint press release from the WRU and the Regions. It's embargoed; there's posh. That usually means its quite important. Magna Carta however it is not, more like Magna Cop Out.
"A professional body created to strengthen and develop professional rugby in Wales, both on and off the field, is being established by the WRU and the four Welsh Regions."
The board will consist of four members of the WRU, four members of the Regions and an Independent Chair. More money will be made available to the Regions from the WRU centrally as a result.
There are eight "definitive objectives":
1 maximise performance of the national teams
2 improve the financial management of the Regions
3 retain senior Welsh internationals playing in Wales
4 develop Welsh international players
5 achieve four Regions which can effectively compete at the top of European rugby within five years
6 support the Principality Premiership
7 support and develop the community game
8 ensure sustainability of the Millennium Stadium.
Fine aims, but where is the debit? We all know the rules of double accounting, for every credit, there must be a debit, even when there is apparently more money available.
Who will lose out? All of these aims will take money to achieve. Where will that money come from? Is it being deflected from paying down the WRU's debts? Is it based on projections from when Wales have been doing relatively well on the field recently?
It seems to me that the aims are contradictory. We have already seen that the WRU will arrange extra autumn games irrespective of the Regions' European endeavours; the sustainability of the Millennium Stadium trumping the European aspirations of the Regions, for the second year running.
That however is the obvious example.
There is a strong case for saying that Welsh international players develop better in the French league, or even the English league. The Regions can develop homegrown talent to take the place of the stars who have moved away, their wage bills are less which helps their finances.
This doesn't sit neatly with winning the European Cup though.
To do that you need to splash out, gambling that if you achieve success that will put in train a virtuous circle.
You could do that by competing with foreign clubs for Welsh players under aim 3, and then watch them being injured playing for Wales and be unavailable at crucial points in the season due to Wales squad training.
Or, you could compete with England and France for the best semi retired Southern Hemisphere players, which avoids that predicament, but puts future Welsh stars that need game time at the highest level on the bench.
All this misses the point though. The list is a sop. A populist set of desires. Paying lip service, trying to keep everybody happy. I hope the new board realise that they won't be able to do all of the above, and find their priorities.
Welsh rugby is as feudal as medieval Britain. In a feudal system, when the King is broke he puts pressure on the Barons, they pass that pressure downwards to the next tier and so on as far as they can, but also try to put it back on the King. That is exactly what has happened since regionalisation. The WRU as King set up the fiefdoms of the regions and all parties have been involved in a classic power struggle since. After Magna Carta, King John carried on in much the same vein as he had before. The friction points between him and the Barons were exactly the same as they had been before.
And that is precisely what will happen to this latter day accord. Everybody talks about common purposes, but give it a few weeks and the old cracks will appear.
The WRU either have to give the Regions their independence or take their management in house in a franchise system. This proposed compromise will not resolve the fundamental power struggle at the heart of professional rugby in Wales.
http://v2journal.com/magna-cop-out.html
- Spoiler:
- JOINT PRESS RELEASE FROM WELSH RUGBY UNION AND WELSH REGIONS
NEW RUGBY BODY CREATED TO STEER PROFESSIONAL GAME FORWARD IN WALES
A new professional body created to strengthen and develop professional rugby in Wales, both on and off the field, is being established by the WRU and the four Welsh Regions.
The Professional Regional Game Board (PRGB) is being formed following considerable and constructive discussion between the WRU and the Regions (the Scarlets, Ospreys, Newport Gwent Dragons and Cardiff Blues) following an independent review into the Regional game.
The new board, comprising of four members of the WRU, four members of the Regions and an Independent Chair, will have clear objectives to improve the position and strength of Welsh professional rugby, both on and off the field, supported with additional resource from the WRU.
A formal Memorandum of Understanding has been signed by the WRU and the four Regions and will now be incorporated into the existing Participation Agreement between all parties.
The discussions between the Regions and the WRU have been based on the findings of an independent report into Regional rugby in Wales by accountants PwC.
The Group Chief Executive of the WRU, Roger Lewis said; “The formation of the new Professional Regional Game Board is a landmark moment in the history of Welsh rugby.
“By working together, we will create a unity of purpose for Welsh professional rugby which will be underpinned by collective management, enhanced with greater central resources and structured to ensure effective decision-making.
“The PRGB will play a significant role in helping Regional rugby make real progress, both on and off the field, in the years ahead.
“The PwC report confirmed to all of us in uncompromising detail that we have to act very differently, so we have worked hard in a spirit of unity to forge a structure that can provide workable and meaningful solutions.
“It is abundantly clear that we have to forge a strong and collaborative working partnership going forward and the new PRGB will be vehicle for that.
“The PwC report did not make easy reading for anyone involved and the boards and management of the Regions should be proud of the way they have confronted some tough realities to reach this point.
“I want to thank my colleagues from the four Regions who have showed immense resolve and determination to achieve this solution.
“A lot of hard work lies ahead, but the PRGB offers us a management structure capable of making the tough but realistic decisions which will benefit the game as a whole. Over the course of the next twelve months we have to build a foundation for the future.”
Speaking on behalf of the four Regions the Chief Executive of the Scarlets, Mark Davies, said: “For Welsh rugby to be truly successful we must all ensure that the game is healthy and sustainable for the long term at every level of the sport.
“To achieve that aim within finite resources and a harsh economic climate the only way forward is to work effectively together and use those resources wisely in the pursuit of a clear and common goal.
“The PRGB is the result of a period of genuine, open and constructive dialogue, assisted by the initiative of the PwC review with the WRU and the four Regions committing to deliver on clear and agreed objectives over time, as the first step towards securing a healthy future for the professional game in Wales.
“The work that we have undertaken together over the last twelve months has demonstrated that there are no simple answers – we have a lot more hard work ahead of us, but by utilising the collective expertise within the WRU and the Regions we are all determined that we will define and deliver the right solutions for the future.”
The clear role of the PRGB is to achieve strong, sustainable and competitive professional rugby at international and Regional level in Wales.
That will be delivered through the achievement of eight definitive objectives;
To underpin, support and maximise performance of the national teams
To improve the overall financial management of the Regions
To help retain senior Welsh internationals playing in Wales where appropriate
To develop Welsh international players
To achieve four Regions which can effectively compete at the top of European rugby within five years
To support the Principality Premiership
To ensure the continued support and development of the community game
To ensure the continued sustainabilityof the Millennium Stadium
The signed document states that:
It is believed that by working together a number of benefits will be achieved by each Region and the WRU, but most importantly, it is hoped that it will achieve competitive, sustainable, professional rugby for the Regions and for the benefit of Welsh rugby.
The new PRGB will be based on a collaborative approach and will meet monthly to review and deliver progress.
A consistent format detailed five year Business plan will be agreed and implemented by each Region, with the PRGB undertaking formal quarterly reviews of performance against each current year plan
The distribution of current funding to the Regions from the WRU under the terms of the existing Participation Agreement will be monitored and overseen by the PRGB, with appropriate sanctions in place for actions taken without agreement of the new body.
A review of best operational practice will be instigated by the PRGB, key performance indicators established and potential cost savings identified and implemented through effective, collaborative working.
The PwC report commissioned by the WRU and agreed by the Regions in December 2011 was based on a detailed financial analysis of the last three years’ accounts from all five parties, together with analysis of the next three to five years’ financial projections.
Key conclusions of the report were that tighter financial planning and greater collaboration between all the Regions and the WRU are vital to the creation and delivery of a sustainable business model.
The PRGB will replace the existing Management Board, which was set up in 2009 to oversee the operational running of the Participation Agreement, which remains the contractual agreement between Welsh Rugby’s governing body and the Regions.
An Independent Chairman will be appointed to oversee the PRGB.
The first meeting of the PRGB is scheduled to take place later this month (December 2012).
- Spoiler:
STATEMENT ISSUED ON BEHALF OF THE WRU AND THE FOUR REGIONS
SIR WYN WILLIAMS TO CHAIR NEW PROFESSIONAL REGIONAL GAME BOARD
Following the joint announcement by the Welsh Rugby Union and the four Welsh Regions of the new Professional Regional Game Board, it can now be confirmed that Mr Justice Wyn Williams has been appointed as the inaugural chairman of the newly formed body.
The PRGB has been created to strengthen and develop professional rugby in Wales both on and off the field following an independent review carried out by PwC.
Sir Wyn Williams (61) will formally take up the appointment at the first meeting of the PRGB due to be held later this month.
The post does not receive any remuneration and Sir Wyn will attend the monthly PRGB meetings at times which do not conflict with his judicial duties.
Sir Wyn is a Presiding Judge for the Wales Circuit, was appointed a Specialist Chancery Judge for Wales in 2004, became a Bencher of the Inner Temple in 2007, took Silk in 1992 and was originally called to the Bar in 1974. He is also the Deputy Chairman for the Boundary Commission for Wales.
He was born in the Rhondda Valley, where he still lives, and is a former player, Chairman and remains a Trustee for life of Tylorstown RFC. Sir Wyn is an avid supporter of rugby at all levels in Wales.
The Group Chief Executive of the Welsh Rugby Union, Roger Lewis, said: “We are delighted to announce the appointment of someone of Sir Wyn’s calibre as the inaugural chair of the PRGB.
“His status as a High Court judge ensures he takes on this post with a formidable reputation for objectivity, fairness and an undoubted ability to find intelligent solutions to complex problems.
“His interest in rugby and true understanding of the game at all levels means he brings to the role a real knowledge of the issues which the PRGB will prioritise.
“As a High Court judge with a well-deserved reputation of national standing, Sir Wyn has all the qualities necessary to prove an ideal independent chair of the PRGB.”
Speaking on behalf of the four Regions, Scarlets Chief Executive, Mark Davies, added: “The scale, scope and role of the new PRGB and the clear aims that we have set out mean that we need a very considerable individual indeed to be able to share the responsibility and lead the discussions that result in us collectively achieving our objectives for a healthy and sustainable future for Welsh rugby.
"Sir Wyn Williams’ lifelong contribution to grassroots rugby and his firm belief that the best structures are built on strong foundations will be a tremendous asset to PRGB and Welsh rugby as a whole.
"His knowledge and passion for Welsh rugby, together with the scale and degree of judgement he employs daily at a very profound level, means it's a role clearly well within his capability and experience. I'm sure he will facilitate our discussions at PRGB in a clear and constructive manner and encourage a real spirit of unity, vision and purpose."
Last edited by Glas a du on Wed 05 Dec 2012, 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
Glas a du- Posts : 15843
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Re: Magna Cop Out
by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 06 Dec 2012, 7:56 am
HammerofThunor wrote:Does this group actually have any power whatsoever? Or is it just a chat and then they have to try and convince their various bodies to enact what was suggested?
That's the question, isn't it. You should put that to Roger Lewis, but make sure you tick the box for a reply in English rather than business-speak.
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Re: Magna Cop Out
by Glas a du Thu 06 Dec 2012, 8:03 am
I can't believe Lewis will allow this board to dictate to the WRU. It will surely be an advisory panel.
Glas a du- Posts : 15843
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Location : Ammanford
Re: Magna Cop Out
by Casartelli Thu 06 Dec 2012, 9:02 am
"Advisory panel" makes it sound rather grand.
"Some blokes having a gossip once a month" is closer to the mark.
This is what the 'CEO' boasted earlier in the year;
"We are at a fundamental crossroads in the history of Welsh rugby,
We are at a critical stage and that's what is so exciting because if we get this right we will come up with something in world rugby that will be the envy of the world.
We've got to think differently. We cannot think we've just got to fix what's gone on before.
We've got to come up with something that's far more radical and is far more sustainable that will take our game forward."
I don't want to prejudge things. If, fueled by envious rage, Argentina, Samoa, Ireland etc. all establish obscure committees to have occasional lunches, I will applaud Roger and his pioneering management strategy.
"Some blokes having a gossip once a month" is closer to the mark.
This is what the 'CEO' boasted earlier in the year;
"We are at a fundamental crossroads in the history of Welsh rugby,
We are at a critical stage and that's what is so exciting because if we get this right we will come up with something in world rugby that will be the envy of the world.
We've got to think differently. We cannot think we've just got to fix what's gone on before.
We've got to come up with something that's far more radical and is far more sustainable that will take our game forward."
I don't want to prejudge things. If, fueled by envious rage, Argentina, Samoa, Ireland etc. all establish obscure committees to have occasional lunches, I will applaud Roger and his pioneering management strategy.
Last edited by Casartelli on Thu 06 Dec 2012, 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added some Roger quotes.)
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Re: Magna Cop Out
by Guest Thu 06 Dec 2012, 9:35 am
The creation of this new "Panel" just shows that the WRU really have lost their way as they attempt to ratify a structure that doesn't work for welsh rugby.
Centralised control only ever means a hammer to crack a nut.
Roberts leaving Cardiff shows financial mismanagement for a player to be leaving. Lydiate leaving reflects the Dragons status where they are unable to break into the higher financial terms. The WRU look at these two instances in the same light but they are very different and do reflect the paltry four team status of the so called national game.
There is an unhealthy focus on European success in the R12 and the fact that Ospreys or Leinster can top the R12 table using effectively a second team as their 'elite' players play more Tests than regional games.
Being old enough to remember the old club games against my club I will state my preference for that approach which some on here will immediately state is unaffordable and we are not going back - fair enough. However the fans are voting with their feet and now the players are too which I would humbly suggest means the structure is not working in providing an attractive sporting and financial environment for fans and players alike.
At times I find the strategic direction of the professional game more interesting than the endless RL phase game on the pitch....
Centralised control only ever means a hammer to crack a nut.
Roberts leaving Cardiff shows financial mismanagement for a player to be leaving. Lydiate leaving reflects the Dragons status where they are unable to break into the higher financial terms. The WRU look at these two instances in the same light but they are very different and do reflect the paltry four team status of the so called national game.
There is an unhealthy focus on European success in the R12 and the fact that Ospreys or Leinster can top the R12 table using effectively a second team as their 'elite' players play more Tests than regional games.
Being old enough to remember the old club games against my club I will state my preference for that approach which some on here will immediately state is unaffordable and we are not going back - fair enough. However the fans are voting with their feet and now the players are too which I would humbly suggest means the structure is not working in providing an attractive sporting and financial environment for fans and players alike.
At times I find the strategic direction of the professional game more interesting than the endless RL phase game on the pitch....
Guest- Guest
Re: Magna Cop Out
by Glas a du Thu 06 Dec 2012, 11:00 am
Casartelli wrote:"Advisory panel" makes it sound rather grand.
"Some blokes having a gossip once a month" is closer to the mark.
This is what the 'CEO' boasted earlier in the year;
"We are at a fundamental crossroads in the history of Welsh rugby,
We are at a critical stage and that's what is so exciting because if we get this right we will come up with something in world rugby that will be the envy of the world.
We've got to think differently. We cannot think we've just got to fix what's gone on before.
We've got to come up with something that's far more radical and is far more sustainable that will take our game forward."
I don't want to prejudge things. If, fueled by envious rage, Argentina, Samoa, Ireland etc. all establish obscure committees to have occasional lunches, I will applaud Roger and his pioneering management strategy.
I admire your style.
Glas a du- Posts : 15843
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Location : Ammanford
Re: Magna Cop Out
by Glas a du Thu 06 Dec 2012, 11:03 am
Recwatcher wrote:The creation of this new "Panel" just shows that the WRU really have lost their way as they attempt to ratify a structure that doesn't work for welsh rugby.
Centralised control only ever means a hammer to crack a nut.
Yes, but that's not what they are doing is it. They cant take central control as their bank will say no to taking on the Regions' debt. So you have this half way house.
Glas a du- Posts : 15843
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Re: Magna Cop Out
by SecretFly Thu 06 Dec 2012, 11:56 am
Think about better coaches at Regional level?...................?........................... huh?
Welsh rugby overcomplicates itself. The field is the issue. More wins from more sides. More muscular presence from Welsh sides in HEC and players suddenly have the desire to hang around for the parties. Plus, more winning means more demanding positions when sponsors come calling with offers and that means more money to bankroll players staying.
It's not about structures and sub-structures and sub-paragraphs of sub-agreements - it's about winning. Winning doesn't happen in the boardroom. Winning is the beginning - and that's already good/very good players being coached better.
Welsh rugby overcomplicates itself. The field is the issue. More wins from more sides. More muscular presence from Welsh sides in HEC and players suddenly have the desire to hang around for the parties. Plus, more winning means more demanding positions when sponsors come calling with offers and that means more money to bankroll players staying.
It's not about structures and sub-structures and sub-paragraphs of sub-agreements - it's about winning. Winning doesn't happen in the boardroom. Winning is the beginning - and that's already good/very good players being coached better.
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Join date : 2011-12-12
Re: Magna Cop Out
by Glas a du Thu 06 Dec 2012, 12:33 pm
Which is right of course as that is exactly what happened with the National team when they appointed Gatland and Edwards. OK it hasnt been all plain sailing and they have been extremely frustrating.
Then consider that Nigel Davies has shown what he can do with Gloucester and Lyn Jones with London Welsh. It is not only the identity of the coaches therefore, there is something else at play.
Then consider that Nigel Davies has shown what he can do with Gloucester and Lyn Jones with London Welsh. It is not only the identity of the coaches therefore, there is something else at play.
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