Heino Cup Pool 5, Round 3: Scarlets vs Exeter Chiefs

Neither side with a win in the competition so far, so realistically out of contention, but plenty of pride to play for.

Can I ask one of the Scarlets fans to post a preview from their side?

From a Chiefs perspective, Exe go into this match on the back of a nice winning run in all competitions, with the youngsters setting the standard in the LV= Cup and the 'A' league, and the first team following in their wake in the league. Only Kai Horstmann, Dave Ewers, Will Chudley and James Phillips remain on the long-term injured list, with the likes of Ben White and Craig Mitchell getting close to full fitness after their injuries, and the return of the international players like TJ, Gonzo Camacho, Sireli Naqelevuki, etc. sure to bolster Rob Baxter's options. In terms of form, Exe haven't been playing quite at their peak recently, but are still managing to eke out the wins, which is a good marker for any side with pretensions to be one of the best in Europe at some point in the future. All-in-all, the Chiefs will travel to Parc Y Scarlets in decent fettle and good spirits

Do you think we'l have our new Fijian, Watisoni Votu, in time? He looks like an excellent prospect. Could have had him ages ago if it wasn't for the cr@p admin at SP. How many times have they cocked up paperwork on foreign signings now?

Back on topic Come on CHIEFS

We'll have our internationals back, so that will strenghen us a lot (as long as they've been able to train enough).

So should have Stoddart, Jon Davies, Scott Williams, Priestland, Liam Williams (will be good to have him back), Knoyle, Shingler, Samson Lee, Rees and Owens

North, Turnbull and McGog may be injured but could come through.

I don't think North will be too much of a loss as with Stodds and Liam Williams we can field a very good back 3 that offers something different. 6 may be a problem but think we'll have a backrow of Shingler, Murphy and Edwards - maybe a bit lightweight but should be very mobile and good carriers.

Priestland will prob start as Aled Thomas hasn't impressed that much, I just hope away from the international limelight that Priestland gains more confidence.

It'll be a tough game against an ever improving Exeter side and I'm excited to see how our pack goes against yours and if we can get the physical edge - with Snyman, Vallejos, Earle and (maybe) Ball to choose from (not sure if Ball's Pro12 ban covers the HEC) then we can provide some good bulk in the boilerhouse and good lineout options - and with Adriaanse and Lee we've got decent/good options at TH.

There's a rumour that Rhodri Jones and Rob Evans may be back at LH - but am not sure. If they are back then it'll be a great help.

I can't see too many changes for the Chiefs. Tui may start at TH ahead of Rimmer, there may be some rotation in the locks but one of Mumm and Muldowney will need to cover back-row too, assuming White isn't match fit yet. Will TJ start or be benched again - it's heresy, I know, but could we see Scays benched with TJ at 7? Damien Welch, with his local knowledge, may get a shout but, if not, I'm sure he'll have been heavily involved in this week's training.

Backline pretty much picks itself, except for the right wing conundrum - will young Nowell retain the shirt, or Comacho, fresh from his try-scoring exploits at the MS, slot in, or even Josh Tatupu, if he's fully recovered from the broken ankle. There's Whitten lurking in the wings too and one or all of those may be in contention to displace Sireli on the bench.

Chiefs are unbeaten against welsh opposition in top-flight competition, but have only played Scarlets in pre-season friendlies before now. Bookies have Scarlets at 5/11 with Chiefs at 19/10 and the handicap is 5 points. I'd have it more at evens, but then I've never met a poor bookie, and I am a tad biased.

From the sounds of Steeno's comments on the offy site, the players are going to be giving this one their all - personally, with two games lost, I would happily forgive them for easing off a shade before two very important AP games against local rivals Glaws and Bath - but fortunately it doesn't seem as if Chiefs' players see it that way. Two monkies removed from their collective back, with the first away win in the AP this season, and the first ever win at the MadStad, but this squad would also like to shake the monkey that is their first Heino win

Priest - I'd have thought that Aled Thomas would start with Priestland on the bench. Don't feel that Aled has played badly and Priestland could do with a bit of a break and maybe play 20-30 minutes.

The backrow is light but a couple of lumps for locks will help and Rees and Owens back will help bolster the scrum. Samson will also be raring to go after sitting on the bench last week.

can see adriannse starting at TH, and samson lee coming on in the last 30-20 mins. shingler will add an extra lineout option in the backrow. not sure who will play 10 subsbench. management realise that priestlands kicking percentage of roughly 56% is not acceptable (aled's is roughly 80%+) however they feel if priestland is playing they are more likely to score tries. centres will be scott williams and foxy I'd imagine. Liam Williams will slot into the back three, however Morgan Stoddart is to be rested for the next three weeks as a precaution as the region's medical team manage his comeback from the long-term double leg fracture. North is still a doubt with his hip injury too.

Subsbench - I felt Aled had a very poor game against Ulster and made some very poor decisions, as Pioden says Priestlands kicking isn't good enough, and I know Owen kicked a bit against the Blues in the LV cup so that's an option- but
then Aled was pretty good one against Munster and Priestland could maybe do with a spell on the bench - but I feel Priestland is more likely to make the right decisions, especially with his offloading - just that's cancelled out by his poor goal-kicking at the moment.

It could be either one in all honesty (why did Wellies have to leave...)

Pioden - Is it definate that Stodds won't be playing over Christmas? As I figured he was rested for the Blues LV cup game but then he played against Munster and was training with Wales before the Ulster game (but didn't play against Ulster) so I figured he'd been managed sensibly and could manage at least every other game and was getting stronger (hence Wales having a glance at him).

Scarlets Team:

15 - Dan Newton
14 - Liam Williams
13 - Jon Davies
12 - Scott Williams
11 - Andy Fenby
10 - Rhys Priestland
9 - Aled Davies
1 - Phil John
2 - Matthew Rees
3 - Samson Lee
4 - George Earle
5 - Richard Kelly
6 - Aaron Shingler
7 - Johnathon Edwards
8 - Kieran Murphy

Bench:-
Ken Owen, Sean Hopkins, Jacobie Adriaanse, Joe Snyman, Sione Timani, Tavis Knoyle, Aled Thomas, Gareth Maule

priest: think resting Morgan is precautionary - he's played a lot of rugby since being out of the game 14 months.

Exeter team to face Scarlets. Gonzo and TJ come back in . Very strong Chiefs side. Very pleased!

15 Luke Arscott
14 Gonzalo Camacho
13 Sireli Naqelevuki
12 Jason Shoemark
11 Matt Jess
10 Gareth Steenson
9 Haydn Thomas
1 Brett Sturgess
2 Simon Alcott
3 Hoani Tui
4 Tom Hayes (capt)
5 Damian Welch
6 Tom Johnson
7 James Scaysbrook
8 Richard Baxter

16 Neil Clark
17 Ben Moon
18 Carl Rimmer
19 Aly Muldowney
20 Dean Mumm
21 Kevin Barrett
22 Ignacio Mieres
23 Ian Whitten

Good to see Damien Welch get a first start against his old club - I can imagine he will be raring to go. I presume that Dolly is injured, so Naqer comes in - personally I'd have gone with Whitts, keeping Sireli on the bench - he's such an awesome impact sub and I don't think he plays the high tempo game we want from the start as well as others - just my opinion

Can't wait now, train gets in at noon - couple of jars while I wait for dreamer's train, the off to Parc

Surprised Welch has started for Exeter.

But more surprised about some of the Scarlets choices, thought Snyman would definately have started, and that Jacobie would have started with Lee on the bench. Also thought Vallejos would have been on the bench as opposed to Timani (though I do like Timani).

I wonder if Newton will take the kicks...

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Surprised Welch has started for Exeter.

But more surprised about some of the Scarlets choices, thought Snyman would definately have started, and that Jacobie would have started with Lee on the bench. Also thought Vallejos would have been on the bench as opposed to Timani (though I do like Timani).

I wonder if Newton will take the kicks...

I am wondering if it is a case of feilding a team that should win, whilst holding some people back for what will be a very long run of away games (I don't think we are home again until Clearmont in the last group match)

It's a very high risk strategy!

Though I suppose at the start of the season (after the HEC draw) I was one of the people saying the Scarlets should concentrate on the league rather than Europe - so I don't suppose I can argue if they do adopt the strategy as you say.

Priest - I ain't saying that the management have gone down that route, but it looks that way with decisions like Aled Davies instead of Tav or Gareth, Samson instead of Jacobie etc.

Hmm good point about Aled Davies as well.

Have you heard anything about when we can expect Rhodri Jones and Rob Evans back?

(I'm amazed we've gotten by with only Phil Johns and Hopkins at LH) Phil has been a machine, I think he's played every Rabo/HEC game this season.

Plenty of urgency from the Chiefs. Absolute rubbish from the Scarlets.

Last pen decision in the 22 looked harsh on the Scarlets but Chiefs were the better side overall.

Shocking result for the Scarlets, Exeter are a decent team but the Scarlets should have been bankers for a comfortable win.

Did they underestimate the challenge, did the lack of squad sessions due to international commitments affect them, or were they just rubbish?

Seagultaf wrote:Shocking result for the Scarlets, Exeter are a decent team but the Scarlets should have been bankers for a comfortable win.

Did they underestimate the challenge, did the lack of squad sessions due to international commitments affect them, or were they just rubbish?

Really?

Apart from home advantage, what do you base that on?

Chiefs are a good team. Not a massive surprise.

I do think the week before is a very important warm-up game for the Heineken Cup and it beggars belief the WRU screwed the regions out of it. Sometimes it feels like they want the regions to fail.

Good result for my accumulator on this round of the HC. 3 more results go my way and I'll make a tidy profit.

MrsP wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:Shocking result for the Scarlets, Exeter are a decent team but the Scarlets should have been bankers for a comfortable win.

Did they underestimate the challenge, did the lack of squad sessions due to international commitments affect them, or were they just rubbish?

Really?

Apart from home advantage, what do you base that on?

Scarlets have 12 players in the Welsh squad, Exeter have 1? Scarlets are 2nd in the Rabo, Exeter are mid table in the Aviva! Exeter have a great team spirit but I would have expected the Scarlets to beat them home and away. Fair play to Exeter, a real shock result!

A good result today, first win in the Heino and first away win in the Heino! Played smart rugby without ever hitting the heights - took points when they were on offer, as they frequently were thanks to generous Scarlets kicking game, and kept the scoreboard ticking over. Still not hitting top form tho, but I guess at least that means there will be more to come. Am sure that Scarlets will offer a sterner test in the return fixture next weekend

Ha! Yeah, right...

Seagultaf wrote:

MrsP wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:Shocking result for the Scarlets, Exeter are a decent team but the Scarlets should have been bankers for a comfortable win.

Did they underestimate the challenge, did the lack of squad sessions due to international commitments affect them, or were they just rubbish?

Really?

Apart from home advantage, what do you base that on?

Scarlets have 12 players in the Welsh squad, Exeter have 1? Scarlets are 2nd in the Rabo, Exeter are mid table in the Aviva! Exeter have a great team spirit but I would have expected the Scarlets to beat them home and away. Fair play to Exeter, a real shock result!

The Chiefs were one place higher than the Scarlets in the Euro Club rankings before the game. Not sure that tallies well with your view of a Shock Result.

Home advantage would have pushed me to have the Scarlets as favorites but the disruption of the game against Australia would have cancelled that out.

I wasn't shocked at all by the Chiefs win.

I understand that, but what was shocking for me was the Scarlets performance, not the result. Also how little Exeter needed to do to win it. The problem wasn't individuals failing to slot into the system, it was individuals failing to do the basics I would expect any regional player to be able to do e.g. Fenby (who wasn't even in the Wales squad) failing to catch a perfectly straight forward pass and Scott Williams failing to avoid throwing a forward pass when he could have put Liam Williams clear. Not good enough for any team whatever the context or who was expected to win and whether that was accurate or not.

I think people saying Shock result are being very disrespectful - yes Scarlets were the favourites and did have home advantage, but Exeter have a very tight team that are greater than the sum of their parts, and are supplemented by some very good players like Mumm, Camacho and Johnson among other's, they are 6th in the Aviva and improving all the time.

Also for idiots liek Hadley, yes the Scarlets had large amounts of players in the Wales team yet because of this they haven't had their whole backline training with them for a month, until 2 days before the game - they were missing two of their best back 3 players - Stodds and North, had to play their 3rd choice SH, their no10 went off injured in the 1st half and they were missing McGog, Turnbull, Vallejos, Ball, Rhodri Jones and Rob Evans in the scrum.

Is it any wonder we were rusty and made lots of mistakes (such as the ones Scott Williams made to scrap a try scoring opp) against a good, physical and competitive Exeter side.

It's also little wonder that the only Welsh internationals to play well were JD2 and Sanjay, thanks to WRU prioritizing the Wales team and extra money for the game, over the regions HEC campaigns. (I can understand both arguments, but you can't hold the regions fully accountable for loosing games each December)

Who's Hadley and what did he say?

Adrian Hadley - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20659029

He said that the regions blatantly aren't good enough coz the Ospreys lost away to Toulouse - one of the strongest teams in the competition, the Blues lost against Montpellier after having Williams sent off and coz the Scarlets have lost 3 games - despite us having two ex-winners of the competition in our group.

He does concede that the teams would have done better with access to their internationals, without the large injury list ect but says that's not really an excuse and they should still be doing better and beating the teams in their groups.

It may be seen as disrespectful, but what Hadley said there is actually true if we are serious about Europe. Never accept mediocrity.

True - I def agree with never accepting mediocrity - but the reason I think he's and idiot is that the whole article seems to suggest that having players back for 2 training sessions (in a month) before a big game should have no negative impact on the fluidity, skills, backline moves and the unity of the team (especially pack/lineout calls).
Or that playing with 14 men for the majority of a game (Blues vs Montpellier, Scarlets vs Clermont) shouldn't adversely affect the result.

Or that we should take for granted beating the likes of Toulouse and Clermont away from home, and if we lose it means we're really poor - regardless of preperation time, or having most of a pack out injured...

These are small things that could mean the difference between winning and losing.

The Blues have had some poor results however and once they've rebuilt their side (in a season or two) I'd expect them to be in the top two of their group regularly.

I don't think it should. These are professional players. They hardly play every week anyhow. They knew the system before they went off to the Welsh squad. The errors were basic, not organisational or systems based. That excuse is an easy cop out for the players and coaches.

I suppose theres no point training then as their professional players... I doubt spala made much difference to wales either!

This is the problem with Welsh rugby, training has become more important than playing. Players are rested from games so they can train more. The best training for skills is playing. Bloomin Nora, the fact they had two days together should be irrelevant, the fact they may have been knackered is a bigger point, but they get paid for playing, they are professional so should have professional attitudes.

I thought the problem with world rugby was players being frequently injured/burned out from too much rugby, being expectd to play in 3 overlapping competitions and 13-20 internationals.
But u seem to be suggesting that they should get rid of some training sessions and play more games?

Ahh i c u think coz they are professional and paid a lot then things like tiredness shouldnt effect them (even tho theyre playing against other professionals).

Dont u think that the fact the last time rees played for the scarlets, a month ago, he played with 5 other forwards, a different lock pairing (with different lineout strengths) a different lifter/prop, and as a result the lineout calls are more than likely to have changed since he played (he also has trained very little with adriaanse and snyman).

Though if this doesnt make any diff, I ask u again why do teams bother training at all, and why did people say there was a huge improvement in wales after the pre-wc spala camp. They also mention fiji/samoa being at a disadvantage coz they dont have their squads together much to train. But they are professional players...

Now you're just being silly. It's a question of priorities and attitude. I get tired, sometimes my secretary goes on holiday. I don't think my clients would be impressed if I gave less than my all. As a paying fan I am the Scarlets customer. I expect them to do their best on the field. If you want to make excuses for them, carry on, I don't think it's appropriate.

So u say ur at ur peak regardless of tiredness?

Im not being silly, ur the one suggesting that it doesnt matter if players traing much. Im merely saying that training on the systems u use in a game hellps players reach their absolute peak - which is nothintg less than is needed to beat similarily prepared professional sides

Being a professional means performing in less than ideal circumstances.

True, true and correct me if I'm wrong but the Scarlets (and other regions) players did go out and perform - it's not like they phoned up and said they were too tired to play.

But I thought we were talking about performing at the level necessary to beat other professionals - ie being at your optimum or at least at 95%, and that is where working well as a unit/team, practicing/training until your skills are honed to a fine edge, proper physical (and mental) preperation come in.

If it was as easy as just turning up and playing every few days without training - then not only would every other team be doing it (instead of wasting time/money on training) - but players would be acting like they were in the amateur days, spending all day in the pub, falling out of bed to play ect.

There's a big difference between performing, and performing at your maximum.

They did not perform at their maximum or even 95%. if they would have played like they did in five minute bursts throughout, they would have smashed them. Tactically naïve and they committed basic errors at crucial stages. Specifically Fenby, Scott Williams and Kieran Murphy. Fenby dropped a sitter in midfield - no excuse. Murphy went into contact when he should have passed - no excuse. These two have not been with the Wales squad. Scott Williams failed to miss the lone Exeter defender when he had a massive overlap and threw a horrible forward pass to Liam Williams when clear - I grant you Wales had probably knackered him, but for me, this is still no excuse.

I know they didn't perform at their maximum or even 95% (I need a face palm icon), that's my whole point ie, because of the lack of preperation time, (not having a lineout unit training together, not having a backline to practice moves, or a settled squad ect until 2 days before the game) meant they weren't anywhere near 95% - and as you say if they had been near the 95% mark they would have been a lot more competitive, a lot less rusty.

Your point (at least I thought) was that it didn't matter one iota that they hadn't trained together, as they are professionals and should be able to perform at 100% whenever required.

I think training is highly over rated, yes.

So then why didn't these professionals just deliver 100% against another professional organisation, if training doesn't matter (or even playing as a unit before)?

Why also do teams put so much emphasis on training?

why do players look to move to teams with good training facilities (which is one of the reasons the Dragons struggle to attract players).

Why do international teams who have less training time as squads (Pacific Island teams, Argentina - until recently ect) struggle to compete,

and why would teams like Ireland and Wales spend so much money to have more training time together as squads before competitions and send their squads to places like Spala.

Also don't you think the Wales performance/fitness improved dramatically after their pre-WC Spala camp?

It didn't help much beofre the autumn internationals.

How about answering the other questions?

I felt the fitness was there, the aggression wasn't true but IMO most of the problems in the autumn were down to the gameplan and no motivation/inspiring figure to believe in. It didn't help that a lot of our important players were off form either.