India v England 4th Test, Nagpur

First topic message reminder :

So we are reaching the last lap of the series with lots of things at stake.
England are 2-1 up, and this is a historic chance for Alastair Cook's side to make history by winning a series in India after 28 years. After a dreadful year where they lost 7 test matches and the well earned number one ranking, England seem to be getting firmly back on track.
Captain Cook is leading from the front, Kevin Pietersen and Matt Prior are backing him well with the bat and Nick Compton has been solid if not spectacular. Of late Jonathan Trott also found some form. James Anderson has been good, Monty Panesar and Graeme Swann comfortably outbowled their Indian spin counterparts.
There are injury concerns though Steven Finn, who bowled very well in the last match is almost ruled out. Stuart Broad won't be able to step in for him, as he's already ruled out. That leaves a straight choice between Tim Bresnan and Graeme Onions. Bresnan has struggled to match his ashes form since his elbow troubles, and was pretty poor at Ahmedabad in the first test. Onions didn't have a great time in the tour matches. I would personally go for Onions, who has more pace than Bresnan has and bowls a wicket to wicket line. But England might prefer Bresnan's experience and his previous record in the sub-continent. There are questions over Samit Patel's place as well. Patel hasn't really gone on to play a big innings so far, but he has got a few important starts. If Finn's ruled out, his 5th bowling option would be more handy for England.
As far as India go, its a test match at the crossroads for them. The team has lost 2 back to back home tests after 12 years. They are facing the prospect of a home series loss after 8 years. All these come on top of the disasters in England and Australia. The batting isn't firing, the spinners are being outbowled. The leader of the pace pack is send packing by the selectors. There are shrill calls for the captain's head.
Captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni expects his side to show some character in these circumstances. He expects Gautam Gambhir to convert one of those starts into a big one and he believes Sachin Tendulkar, as he has often done will deliver for his team and prove the speculators wrong. He things he can handle the criticism coming his way.
They are sure to go in with 2 changes as Zaheer Khan and Yuvraj Singh who played the previous matches are dropped. It could be Ajinkya Rahane's much anticipated test debut. He might bat 6 in place or else they can bat him at 5 and push Virat Kohli to 6. The other option is to pick Ravindra Jadeja who has been in the form of his life in the Ranji Trophy this season. Jadeja has already scored over 800 runs with 2 triple hundreds for Saurashtra and has picked 26 wickets with his left-arm spin. Playing Jadeja would mean they can play 3 spinners without losing the balance of the attack. The absence of Zaheer and the unavailability of the injured Umesh Yadav might mean that Ishant Sharma's experience might see him playing. Remains to bee seen as to who would partner him in the seam bowling department. Ashok Dinda has been in the squad for some time, Parvinder Awana has good pace and recent good form.
As far as the pitch goes, cricinfo reports that it hasn't been watered for the last couple of days. So the dry pitch should turn. From when onwards and how much remains to bee seen.
Weather is expected to stay good.

Very much England's day, India wasted too much time in the morning then really struggled to make inroads. England probably a session and a half away from clinching the series.

Well, cricket is a game of uncertainties and all that, but this match is a goner for India. So with that goes the series. I hope Ashwin and Ojha are left to play Ranji and work on their game till the Australians arrive. A new opener has to be found , Kohli might have to take over captaincy well before he could be eased into the job. Hopefully Umesh Yadav will be fit and fine for that series. Hopefully Ravindra Jadeja will go back and score more runs and take more wickets at the domestic level and stay in the test side as an all-rounder. Is it to time to say thank you to Zaheer Khan as well? Well I am not so sure. Lets see how he would about in the next couple of Ranji matches.

England one good (or even not disastrous session) with the bat away from clinching the series. India need an England collapse tomorrow morning really. Anything over 3.5 runs per over is going to be really really tricky to get on this pitch.

Trott's played very nicely indeed, probably as well as anyone in the match. Nice to see Bell playing his part too, this partnership for England has been absolutely crucial.

India's batting this morning was very puzzling to me, just didn't get what Ohja was doing at all. Ashwin did OK considering the fields England set, but really India wasted at least half an hour this morning.

England's tactics pretty negative today, but I don't think I mind that all things considered. They've clearly decided it's easier for them to draw the game than to win it, and have put their eggs very much in the draw basket. Thanks to Trott and Bell they're now on their way to doing so. Feel sorry for Cook, two poor decisions in the same match, but actually the umpires have done a good job in this game. Yes, there's been a couple of poor decisions, but over 4 days of cricket with loads of appeals coming from everywhere that's not a bad ratio. As Mike would say, show me a player who's made less than two mistakes over the four days...

Finally a word on the Trott incident. Dhoni clearly thought he'd nicked it, but replays suggests Dharmasena in fact made a brilliant decision. What followed next from India was simply disgraceful, and I hope they're bans dished out, because those scenes have no place on a cricket field. Kohli played beautifully, but he needs to be careful about this sort of thing, as he's developping a bit of a negative image. When Ponting confronted the umpires at the MCG in the last Ashes, there was universal condemnation from the world, hope we see the same thing here.

well drs would solve every problem!!!

BCCI ya watching!!

Well, this has to be India's 'England 1999' ' moment. A moment of downright disappointment, a moment of sadness a moment of reaching the bottom of the pit. But also a moment of realization, a moment of action, a moment of purposeful administration and a determined and demanding captain, a good coach who can work well with the captain and a good set of promising players to bring a turn around.
But unfortunately, I am not sure the BCCI thinks on similar lines!. Perhaps the worst is yet to come. What more? a 4-0 loss to Australia at home?

Do you really think MSD will be sacked , msp ? How much can you blame him for what has happened : obviously some must attach , but he can't bowl the opposition out himself , nor can he be expected to rescue the innings every second Test match...
I agree his days as captain may be numbered , but with no obvious successor looking ready to step in I wonder if he ( and Sachin ?) might be needed to face Australia.
After that series ...?

A good sensible approach from England I think. It's easy to get caught in two minds in these situations, not sure whether to play for a draw or win and to do neither. Thus far they've been sensible and settled on a safety first approach.

If they can continue in that vein then they've a good chance of getting enough to be safe.

The big worry has to be that bowling attack. This batting lineup couldnt buy a run in the subcontinent last year. India would seem to have talent in reserve in batsmen but not sure where the future is with their bowlers.

well this game is drawn.. i cant see anything else happening.

englands game plan was/is spot on

alfie wrote:Do you really think MSD will be sacked , msp ? How much can you blame him for what has happened : obviously some must attach , but he can't bowl the opposition out himself , nor can he be expected to rescue the innings every second Test match...
I agree his days as captain may be numbered , but with no obvious successor looking ready to step in I wonder if he ( and Sachin ?) might be needed to face Australia.
After that series ...?

Alfie, I have been a supporter of MSD as captain, and very much on the same reasoning in recent times. Considering his role in the batting lineup, he has done a lot better than Gambhir did in England or even in the home series against NZ. Gambhir is projected as test captain by many critiques f Dhoni. I'd say that will be a very regressive decision, if anything Gambhir has to go and play domestic cricket to recover his touch.
Dhoni has made it clear that he's not one to run away from the challenge. Perhaps he might be asked to stay on till Australia. If the selectors feel Kohli isn't ready to take over in all formats, then MSD should certainly stay on, but remains to be seen what could happen after this series, if the BCCI go for some token action, Dhoni might have to go.

And if the selectors and Kohli himself feel he's up to the challenge, perhaps they are better off starting a fresh, even though a lot of the blame can't be that of Mahendra Singh Dhoni the captain.

Sky expecting India to come hard and just go for it tomorrow. They certainly don't think it's safe yet by the sounds of it.

Don't want token action though , really .

Need to decide if Dhoni is the man to take a new group of players forward , at least at first , as there must be changes. And as you hint , Gambhir could be a casualty himself.
If Kohli is the heir apparent , his century here has helped...but I gather he rather overdid the confrontation thing again today ? Not his first occasion along those lines , which may suggest the maturity isn't there yet...might be the job would make him , might be he just isn't ready.

Decisions needed...are the men who should make them up to the task ?

well sky are clearly trying to get some viewing figures then arnt they!!

this game is dead- which is a good thing

yeah it did feel a bit like a sales pitch.

Well if it is time for Dhoni to go, and TBH his captaincy in this series has been poor on the whole, then the only real candidate seems Kohli. Gambhir and Sehwag are on their last legs, Pujara surely not quite established enough, Tendulkar obviously not, they don't have a settled n°6. Ashwin and Ohja could be other possibles I guess, but again, neither's really assured of his place if India play only one spinner.

Unfortunately on today's evidence I doubt Kohli is ready for the captaincy yet, not by a long way. Then again, the responsibility might help him.

I just saw the hockey shot from Trott there. Nice one

Suppose if India blitzed England with the new ball tomorrow , and the tail folded , they could conceivably be looking at something like 210 in 65 ...which would still be far from easy on this track , but would certainly keep the crowd in their seats !

But you'd have to say that looks a little unlikely on the events of the first four days.

Today showed how pathetic India are. Surrounding Trott and the Umpire after what they thought was a poor decision. They didn't want DRS did they? Then don't have a cry when something doesn't go your way. Time for them to face reality - they're a poor second tier nation with overrated has-beens in the team.

Nice to see Trott and Bell get amongst the runs today. Bat for 2 sessions tomorrow and England have won the series.

By the way, the best post of this series for me goes to KP_fan who after day 1 of the second Test stated that India had already won:

"8 tests lost this year with 2 more to go.......and an impending worst year in the history of English cricket......are bottmline facts"

Where is KPF anyway

GSC wrote:Where is KPF anyway

He'll probably return under another account - he'll be an Aussie WUM next!

Swamys adaptable ill give him that

England's game to lose now. Can't see that happening. With seven wickets left plus the professional approach being adopted, we should get to an unassailable position shortly after lunch. India desperately needed a fourth wicket in that final session.

Following up an earlier post from Shelsey, Compton hasn't played the role of Superman in this series but he's consistently not done anything daft and deserves some credit for that.

Indeed. I worry that journos are already turning a bit on Compton, as they initially did on Trott after a rougher patch in SA and Bangladesh a few years ago. A lot now seem to want Root to open and Bairstow or even Morgan at 6. Certainly, none of the three interviewed on TMS at lunch today picked Compton as their opener for the Ashes.

But, as I say, I think he's been crucial to us doing well. Had we lost early wickets more often it goes without saying that this could have been a very different series.

How's about we give Cook a rest for the overseas tour of New Zealand (I think he's played 86 consecutive Test Matches) and give the captaincy to Prior. This would give Prior some experience of being captain should Cook get injured for the upcoming Ashes. Then we can let Compton and Root open the batting for the 3 away tests to NZ, whoever bats better gets to open alongside Cook for the English summer.

alfie wrote:Don't want token action though , really .

Need to decide if Dhoni is the man to take a new group of players forward , at least at first , as there must be changes. And as you hint , Gambhir could be a casualty himself.
If Kohli is the heir apparent , his century here has helped...but I gather he rather overdid the confrontation thing again today ? Not his first occasion along those lines , which may suggest the maturity isn't there yet...might be the job would make him , might be he just isn't ready.

Decisions needed...are the men who should make them up to the task ?

That last bit is the key, are the BCCI really up to it? Are they bothered? Well I hope so, particularly after a home series loss.
I don't think Kohli's suitability for the job can be questioned or judged on the basis of today's issue. It wasn't pretty, but then he led a U-19 side to world cup success and is regarded as the next in line. Ponting had his fair bit of rather ugli confrontations even late in his captaincy days, Ganguly too crossed the line at times as captain....... I won't read too much into Kohli's actions today with regard to captaincy, although he should certainly show greater responsibility as a player, and if any fair action is taken then that is perfectly alright. I think they should keep MSD on only if they feel he should be up for leading the side against SA in SA at the end of next year. Otherwise hand it over to Kohli right away. Perhaps they can start by handing Kohli the ODI leadership and then take a call from there on.
I will be devastated if they opt for Gambhir or Sehwag. They both have been far too inconsistent over the last couple of years, and are more responsible for India's sorry state in test cricket than most others. Sehwag is an impact player and he did score a hundred in India's win at Ahmedabad so he should stay in the side, but Gambhir has to go, at least for now. Perhaps they should pick Unmukt on potential and temprament, or they should call up a performing opener from the Ranji. Vijay and Mukund didn't quite take their chances, and they are struggling in the Ranji Trophy this season.

have people really turned on Compton? I think he's done a great job personally in conditions he just isn't used to at all. The first innings here was his first genuinge failure (in every other innings he's faced at least 50 balls I think). If there's one criticism you could make, it's that he hasn't converted his starts into big scores. I think it's now four innings of 30+ with only one fifty, and not a big one at that. I'd still give him a 7 out of 10 overall. His fielding could do with a bit of work still.

I know Root's innings will mean he's all the rage at the moment, and he certainly looked very good: organised, compact, patient, pretty much all you could ask for. However, Compton's certainly earned himself the chance of at least starting the series against NZ. I also suspect he'll score a lot easier in different conditions (easier, not necessarily more).

The player who's contributed the least to England's success here is Bell (Bresnan and Broad too I guess), but he has a chance of making a few tomorrow, and (hopefully) silencing the doubters for a bit.

Compton has a fair enugh start to test cricket. Don't think I'd rate him as high as MFC did. An opener has to most certainly convert 30s and 40s into 50s and hundreds. Compton hasn't done that, and England can well live without a Gautam Gambhir!.
But to be fair to Compton, he almost always kept out the new ball and prevented early openings at his end. He and Cook have already put together 2 hundred partnerships. These were conditions different from home and this is his debut series. He for me, has most certainly earned his chance at the top of the order for New Zealand. Root too has to play, I had in fact argued for Root rather than Compton to start the India series. But then England went for Compton and he didn't disgrace himself by any standards. So they both have to play, Root at 6 may not be something that he would be very used to, but the lad showed great adaptability and he should certainly get a run in New Zealand.

msp83 wrote:

alfie wrote:Don't want token action though , really .

Need to decide if Dhoni is the man to take a new group of players forward , at least at first , as there must be changes. And as you hint , Gambhir could be a casualty himself.
If Kohli is the heir apparent , his century here has helped...but I gather he rather overdid the confrontation thing again today ? Not his first occasion along those lines , which may suggest the maturity isn't there yet...might be the job would make him , might be he just isn't ready.

Decisions needed...are the men who should make them up to the task ?

That last bit is the key, are the BCCI really up to it? Are they bothered? Well I hope so, particularly after a home series loss.
I don't think Kohli's suitability for the job can be questioned or judged on the basis of today's issue. It wasn't pretty, but then he led a U-19 side to world cup success and is regarded as the next in line. Ponting had his fair bit of rather ugli confrontations even late in his captaincy days, Ganguly too crossed the line at times as captain....... I won't read too much into Kohli's actions today with regard to captaincy, although he should certainly show greater responsibility as a player, and if any fair action is taken then that is perfectly alright. I think they should keep MSD on only if they feel he should be up for leading the side against SA in SA at the end of next year. Otherwise hand it over to Kohli right away. Perhaps they can start by handing Kohli the ODI leadership and then take a call from there on.
I will be devastated if they opt for Gambhir or Sehwag. They both have been far too inconsistent over the last couple of years, and are more responsible for India's sorry state in test cricket than most others. Sehwag is an impact player and he did score a hundred in India's win at Ahmedabad so he should stay in the side, but Gambhir has to go, at least for now. Perhaps they should pick Unmukt on potential and temprament, or they should call up a performing opener from the Ranji. Vijay and Mukund didn't quite take their chances, and they are struggling in the Ranji Trophy this season.

I like Kohli, he's clearly very passionate, you only have to see his commitment in the field, and the way he's always exhorting the side to see that. However, he does have to be careful that these sorts of incidents don't become too regular an occurence. This isn't the first time I think (certainly there was that "finger" incident in Australia at least). It's a fine line between passion and hot-headedness. I think he'd make a good captain though, and with him in charge maybe the fielding standards would finally increase.

The thing is with Dhoni is he's always been quite a defensive captain. He likes to control the run rate and wait for the mistake. The trouble is, there's a fine line between being defensive and letting the game drift, and letting it drift is something you can't do when you're behind in the game as it just gets away from you. For me, Dhoni has been too content mostly to let it drift since the second innings of the first test. To be blunt, he's looked like a man who's running out of ideas. It's not all his fault, part of the problem is that the retirement of several key players, and loss of form from others has left him with an average team (as happened to Ponting), but a change of captain can freshen things up, much as Cook has done for England, Clarke for Australia, etc. as new captains bring new ideas to the team.

I'm not a fan of Sehwag as captain: I remember once he was captaining an ODI, batted first, batted through the innings making a gazillion runs and then didn't bother coming out to field afterwards. Hardly setting a ringing example. And Gambhir of course should be seriously looking over his shoulder right now.

msp83 wrote:Compton has a fair enugh start to test cricket. Don't think I'd rate him as high as MFC did. An opener has to most certainly convert 30s and 40s into 50s and hundreds. Compton hasn't done that, and England can well live without a Gautam Gambhir!.
But to be fair to Compton, he almost always kept out the new ball and prevented early openings at his end. He and Cook have already put together 2 hundred partnerships. These were conditions different from home and this is his debut series. He for me, has most certainly earned his chance at the top of the order for New Zealand. Root too has to play, I had in fact argued for Root rather than Compton to start the India series. But then England went for Compton and he didn't disgrace himself by any standards. So they both have to play, Root at 6 may not be something that he would be very used to, but the lad showed great adaptability and he should certainly get a run in New Zealand.

bizarre isn't it? Compton, a middle-order batsman by trade will be opening, and Root, an opener by trade will be batting 6. Then again it worked for Australia (Hussey of course being an opener by trade, and numerous players: Langer, Katich, Watson having opened for Australia despite not being regular openers at first class level), Sehwag started his career in the middle-order, etc.

Maybe 7 is a tad generous, but as an opener he's done his job mostly, and you have to take into account that it's his debut series in unusual conditions.

one final point: Dhoni should be very angry about the pitch produced for this match. Needing a win, India could ill-afford a pitch which has all things considered offered very little to the spinners (though it has offered some reverse swing, so India got their selection wrong which didn't help).

Mad for Chelsea wrote:[
And Gambhir of course should be seriously looking over his shoulder right now.

The problem is that when Gambhir looks over his shoulder, he can't see a significant competition.
Hence I suggested the selectors have to take a call, give Unmukt an early introduction to test cricket, or look at someone else who has been performing at the domestic level.
Gambhir has to serve some time out to recharge himself, he absolutely has to go.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:one final point: Dhoni should be very angry about the pitch produced for this match. Needing a win, India could ill-afford a pitch which has all things considered offered very little to the spinners (though it has offered some reverse swing, so India got their selection wrong which didn't help).

The only good pitch for this series was the one at Mumbai. All the others were different kinds of wastelands.

msp83 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:[
And Gambhir of course should be seriously looking over his shoulder right now.

The problem is that when Gambhir looks over his shoulder, he can't see a significant competition.
Hence I suggested the selectors have to take a call, give Unmukt an early introduction to test cricket, or look at someone else who has been performing at the domestic level.
Gambhir has to serve some time out to recharge himself, he absolutely has to go.

Rahane? I know you're not a huge fan of the idea, and TBH I'm not either. I remember saying a couple of years ago that I thought he looked more of a middle-order player after watching him in ODIs (people disagreed with me, but I stand by it). However, he's certainly earned his chance at a Test spot, and as mentioned above middle-order players converted to successful openers aren't that rare.

As for the pitches:

Ahmedabad wasn't bad, a bit flat, but it did turn as the game progressed even if the turn was slow. Mumbai was a cracking subcontinent pitch, value for your shots, but plenty in it for the spinners. Good batsmen and good bowlers prospered. Kolkata was again quite flat, but reverse swung, and as the game progressed there was a little turn, albeit slow. Fast outfield meant full value for your shots too.

This one has just had nothing in it for the spinners: after 4 days about 6 balls have turned noticeably. There's been a bit of reverse swing I guess, but the pitch has been so slow that run scoring has been incredibly tough, and bowlers have got away with ordinary bowling through lack of pace. Also a slow outfield.

These stupid flat tracks are again part of the problems that India face. The spinners try to become defensive, the pacers have nothing much to hpe for other than reverse swing and you need some good pace for that. But with pace you would give away runs with the newish balls on the good for nothing flat monsters. And the batsmen, the moment they are faced with a hint of a challenge from the bowlers they collapse like a pack of cards, but no worries the next day they can score double tons and triple tons for fun back on the road. If I have to type more on these roads, my laptop will be in danger!!!!.

As for Rahane, well I actually see him as the one to step in when Sachin goes. The lad is all tallent, and he might make a decent fist of opening, but I think he could offer a great deal more as an upper middle order player. He has made most of his runs at 3 an as I mentioned somewhere in this thread, his latest stint as an opener wasn't a raging success with the A team in the West Indies.

one more hour ticked off by England. Trott and Bell very solid, and the game drifting away from India.

surprised Chawla hasn't bowled a few, he might go for a few but India shouldn't be scared of trying to buy a wicket...

Game pretty much over at this point.

Time for Ian Bell to score some pressure free runs and regain his touch that could be more advantagious for him and England.He and Trott had very nearly killed off the match as a contest yesterday itself and they have applied the finishing touches. Bell now has to get a good score up on the board.

There it is. Superb century by Trott, an innings which has secured the series for England

India conspicuous by their absence of applause, which is a bit disappointing in all honesty.

lunch, and this one's all over bar the shouting. Superb batting by Trott and Bell, helped by a pitch which has flattened out rather than deteriorated if anything, and an Indian team unwilling or unable to force the issue. The only real question left is whether Bell can reach his first century in India...

ok bell can boost his india average...

if he could get 200 no!

his average would go from 18 to 38!(100 no would take him to 28)

now in this pressure free envioroment would that be a true reflection of bells quality..

but at the same time both have done very well- Us england fans are used to the odd minor melt down close to the finish line- not this time!!

Just turned on to have a look. Nice to see! that's that then. No way back for India in this one.

would it be worth declaring before last session to see if the boiwlers could knock em out!!

i mean there isnt really any point- but from a spectators pov... i might keep watching!

Yeah I was thinking a teatime declaration would be fun. They aren't scoring anywhere near this score on this pitch so why not have a little go at them. Maybe they want the 300 lead first.

I would love to see a declaration about now

Trott just seems happy to frustrate the hell out of them. Chef will need to drag him off.

I think the Indian paper that said Eng were in tatters after day one will be regretting speaking too soon.

India cant really win now so why not declare and make a match of it?

I think bell and trott would bite captain cook if they get pulled of.. but i agree do it anyway!!

Nice six from Bell there.