India v England 4th Test, Nagpur

First topic message reminder :

So we are reaching the last lap of the series with lots of things at stake.
England are 2-1 up, and this is a historic chance for Alastair Cook's side to make history by winning a series in India after 28 years. After a dreadful year where they lost 7 test matches and the well earned number one ranking, England seem to be getting firmly back on track.
Captain Cook is leading from the front, Kevin Pietersen and Matt Prior are backing him well with the bat and Nick Compton has been solid if not spectacular. Of late Jonathan Trott also found some form. James Anderson has been good, Monty Panesar and Graeme Swann comfortably outbowled their Indian spin counterparts.
There are injury concerns though Steven Finn, who bowled very well in the last match is almost ruled out. Stuart Broad won't be able to step in for him, as he's already ruled out. That leaves a straight choice between Tim Bresnan and Graeme Onions. Bresnan has struggled to match his ashes form since his elbow troubles, and was pretty poor at Ahmedabad in the first test. Onions didn't have a great time in the tour matches. I would personally go for Onions, who has more pace than Bresnan has and bowls a wicket to wicket line. But England might prefer Bresnan's experience and his previous record in the sub-continent. There are questions over Samit Patel's place as well. Patel hasn't really gone on to play a big innings so far, but he has got a few important starts. If Finn's ruled out, his 5th bowling option would be more handy for England.
As far as India go, its a test match at the crossroads for them. The team has lost 2 back to back home tests after 12 years. They are facing the prospect of a home series loss after 8 years. All these come on top of the disasters in England and Australia. The batting isn't firing, the spinners are being outbowled. The leader of the pace pack is send packing by the selectors. There are shrill calls for the captain's head.
Captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni expects his side to show some character in these circumstances. He expects Gautam Gambhir to convert one of those starts into a big one and he believes Sachin Tendulkar, as he has often done will deliver for his team and prove the speculators wrong. He things he can handle the criticism coming his way.
They are sure to go in with 2 changes as Zaheer Khan and Yuvraj Singh who played the previous matches are dropped. It could be Ajinkya Rahane's much anticipated test debut. He might bat 6 in place or else they can bat him at 5 and push Virat Kohli to 6. The other option is to pick Ravindra Jadeja who has been in the form of his life in the Ranji Trophy this season. Jadeja has already scored over 800 runs with 2 triple hundreds for Saurashtra and has picked 26 wickets with his left-arm spin. Playing Jadeja would mean they can play 3 spinners without losing the balance of the attack. The absence of Zaheer and the unavailability of the injured Umesh Yadav might mean that Ishant Sharma's experience might see him playing. Remains to bee seen as to who would partner him in the seam bowling department. Ashok Dinda has been in the squad for some time, Parvinder Awana has good pace and recent good form.
As far as the pitch goes, cricinfo reports that it hasn't been watered for the last couple of days. So the dry pitch should turn. From when onwards and how much remains to bee seen.
Weather is expected to stay good.

Declare already... Make the last 30 overs all or nothing.

A wicket.... Match might liven up now. All too late of course. You're not getting 300 in a session.

oh well- it will be nice if root can get a NO- he could average more than Bradman

This is just pointless now

eirebilly wrote:Declare already... Make the last 30 overs all or nothing.

No point in that.

This is the situation in which you would have a bowl - the game has been safe for hours - if there was anything in the pitch.

But that strip of dirt is as dead as ever and I frankly don't see much point...no chance of bowling them out , they have no incentive to have a go either so no wickets would be donated...and all you'd be doing is risking Jimmy getting injured...

Might as well let Bell get his hundred and Root have some more Test Match batting practice.

Does seem a tame end to a series but the pitch has killed this game stone dead.

Did i hear that right?

Trott has never had a test 6??

mystiroakey wrote: Did i hear that right?

Trott has never had a test 6??

Yup.

myst

I know a couple of series ago Trott broke the record for the most Test runs without a 6, but I wasn't sure it was still an active streak.

Was still slightly worried last night that a bad first session for England would put the game and series back in doubt (given that Sehwag batting for a session could make a big difference to the run rate achievable). Was very happy to see that Trott and Bell were still there and so the series was safe.

There was no point in declaring - we have no incentive for winning the match, so just give the guys some batting practice.

I would not declare. Keep india in the field for as long as possible to really rub in the series win. Also some practice for bell and root.

Think bell will get stick from his detractors for scoring pressure free runs again, however think this is unfair. Yesterday when he came in at 90 - 3 it was most definitely a pressure situation. He and trot have made the series win a formality with their partnership.

trott and bell are not game changers- but what they have proved today and yesterday is that they can protect a situation..

LivinginItaly wrote:I would not declare. Keep india in the field for as long as possible to really rub in the series win. Also some practice for bell and root.

Think bell will get stick from his detractors for scoring pressure free runs again, however think this is unfair. Yesterday when he came in at 90 - 3 it was most definitely a pressure situation. He and trot have made the series win a formality with their partnership.

Pressure free?

There was immense pressure when he came in at 92-3.

Couldn't believe it when I checked the score this morning. Boring match but that is just perfect. Excellent series victory, up there with the away Ashes for me.

What's the new "final frontier" now? i.e. series we have not won for a while. I'm thinking its probably Pakistan/Sri Lanka, or maybe beating the Saffers at home.

Can't complain about Bell getting cheap runs...game was still live when he came in and he helped steady it down nicely.
Fully entitled to cash in later. Doesn't mean he'd be first on my team sheet for a future Asian tour but never mind that now , will be a year or two before that arises again.
Will give him some confidence for NZ.

Hundred at last

alfie wrote:Can't complain about Bell getting cheap runs...game was still live when he came in and he helped steady it down nicely.
Fully entitled to cash in later. Doesn't mean he'd be first on my team sheet for a future Asian tour but never mind that now , will be a year or two before that arises again.
Will give him some confidence for NZ.

Hundred at last

Alfie - Good point regarding Bell's selection for future Asian tours. He's had moments of quality (such as this innings) but too often has struggled either with pacing the start of his innings (this tour he's been out slogging the first ball and out having scored 1 in 25 balls - can't find the happy medium) or by not picking 'mystery' spinners (even on wickets offering little turn). The rest of the world he's a definite starter, but we've a couple of years now to get a couple of other middle order guys some experience of playing on this type of wicket so that we aren't necessarily relying on Bell (won't he be 34 or 35 next time we're over there anyway).

VTR wrote:Couldn't believe it when I checked the score this morning. Boring match but that is just perfect. Excellent series victory, up there with the away Ashes for me.

What's the new "final frontier" now? i.e. series we have not won for a while. I'm thinking its probably Pakistan/Sri Lanka, or maybe beating the Saffers at home.

The ultimate final frontier is for England to thrash Australia 5-0 in an ashes test series.

Stella wrote:

LivinginItaly wrote:I would not declare. Keep india in the field for as long as possible to really rub in the series win. Also some practice for bell and root.

Think bell will get stick from his detractors for scoring pressure free runs again, however think this is unfair. Yesterday when he came in at 90 - 3 it was most definitely a pressure situation. He and trot have made the series win a formality with their partnership.

Pressure free?
There was immense pressure when he came in at 92-3.

That is precisely the point I was making, because people earlier in the thread today were already starting to make comments about bell and scoring easy runs. We all know that once people get a reputation it is very difficult for them to get rid of it. Take kp for example, he can score a hundred and still get criticized for the manner of his dismissal.

LivinginItaly wrote:

Stella wrote:

LivinginItaly wrote:I would not declare. Keep india in the field for as long as possible to really rub in the series win. Also some practice for bell and root.

Think bell will get stick from his detractors for scoring pressure free runs again, however think this is unfair. Yesterday when he came in at 90 - 3 it was most definitely a pressure situation. He and trot have made the series win a formality with their partnership.

Pressure free?
There was immense pressure when he came in at 92-3.

That is precisely the point I was making, because people earlier in the thread today were already starting to make comments about bell and scoring easy runs. We all know that once people get a reputation it is very difficult for them to get rid of it. Take kp for example, he can score a hundred and still get criticized for the manner of his dismissal.

Oki-doke, sorry.

Bell's Asian history will always make him easy prey but this was a fine innings.

Well the detractors/critics of Bell will say that he only had to face a very ordinary and average test match level bowling attack which India currently have and not the world class bowling attack which the likes of Pakistan have with bowlers like Saeed Ajmal and Umar Gul.

gboycottnut wrote:

VTR wrote:Couldn't believe it when I checked the score this morning. Boring match but that is just perfect. Excellent series victory, up there with the away Ashes for me.

What's the new "final frontier" now? i.e. series we have not won for a while. I'm thinking its probably Pakistan/Sri Lanka, or maybe beating the Saffers at home.

The ultimate final frontier is for England to thrash Australia 5-0 in an ashes test series.

They'll (Aussie) be big favourites next year after the overall 2012 Eng have had so I can't imagine we'll be seeing that.

that's right trebs, get the reverse jinxing in early

back in front of Australia in the rankings

Very well done England, a magnificent win. Very proud.

back in front- Were we ever behind them?

Well done England. Powered home after the 1st Test and never really looked back. Must feel great turning the tables in India too after all those years and the last home series.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:that's right trebs, get the reverse jinxing in early

back in front of Australia in the rankings

A huge word of warning. Australia will be itching to get at England in next winter's return ashes series down under as they will have a impressive array of young fast bowlers at their disposal who will cause all sorts of problems to England's batsmen as was the case in the 1990's when the likes of McGrath, Gillespie and Lee terrorised England's batsmen. The likes of James Pattinson, Pat Cummins, Alastair McDermott and Mitchell Starc make up very a fearsome 4 man pace attack (like the West Indies 4 man attack of Slyvester Clarke, Ezra Moseley, Franklyn Stephenson and Colin Croft which terrorised South Africa's batsmen in the rebel test series of 1983). Anyway, these young 4 Aussie pace bowlers look like they have the serious pace needed to destroy and bowl out our much vaunted batting lineup for a very paltry score of under 150 each innings.

Whatever happened to Tremlett?

Aussie do seem to have found some good young bowlers again when at one point it looked bad for them.

They could well be ahead of us in terms of genuine quick bowlers again now. We got the wrong Pattison. We have had warnings of what their great attack would do to us in recent years though and it didn't turn out quite as they said, so we shall see.

trebellbobaggins wrote:Aussie do seem to have found some good young bowlers again when at one point it looked bad for them.

They could well be ahead of us in terms of genuine quick bowlers again now. We got the wrong Pattison.

Their bowlers are very fragile.

Currently Pattinson Cummins Harris Hilfenhaus are all lame.

Olly wrote:Whatever happened to Tremlett?

He got crocked again but hopefully he will be back in time for the ashes test series in Australia next winter as we need his awkward bowling again to make it awkward for the Aussie batsmen to score big runs against us.

Gerry SA wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:Aussie do seem to have found some good young bowlers again when at one point it looked bad for them.

They could well be ahead of us in terms of genuine quick bowlers again now. We got the wrong Pattison.

Their bowlers are very fragile.

Currently Pattinson Cummins Harris Hilfenhaus are all lame.

They may be lame, but they can still do serious damage to our fragile batting lineup.

gboycottnut wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:Aussie do seem to have found some good young bowlers again when at one point it looked bad for them.

They could well be ahead of us in terms of genuine quick bowlers again now. We got the wrong Pattison.

Their bowlers are very fragile.

Currently Pattinson Cummins Harris Hilfenhaus are all lame.

They may be lame, but they can still do serious damage to our fragile batting lineup.

Lame was said as to mean injured. My English isn't as good as yours!

They are good/fantastic bowlers but they struggle to get a settled bowling line up out.

they could all be back for next summer though.

I thought we were still 3rd anyway, MfC?

boycsnutt,

That's maybe true... but Australia had another injury yesterday (Hilfenhaus) so now the list isn't getting any shorter. There is talk of getting Ben Cutting into the side now. David Boon has also spoken out (today) about they way our bowlers are managed. He believes they need more rest and we should have a larger group to work with. Trouble is - rewarding form with a 'rest' in order to conserve fitness... sends the wrong signals to other bowlers.

Something is wrong with the way things are happening here. Maybe as McGrath said today - when you first start off you do try to push your pace too much but then you realise how much more rewarding it is to bowl a bit slower and with less grunt.

It takes a few seasons before you realise that not only do you conserve more energy bowling with less pace, there is also less risk of injury and it actually produces better results through more concentration on making the ball do the work and not trying to use brute pace and force to get wickets... which our young quicks tend to do.

Linebreaker wrote:I thought we were still 3rd anyway, MfC?

boycsnutt,

That's maybe true... but Australia had another injury yesterday (Hilfenhaus) so now the list isn't getting any shorter. There is talk of getting Ben Cutting into the side now. David Boon has also spoken out (today) about they way our bowlers are managed. He believes they need more rest and we should have a larger group to work with. Trouble is - rewarding form with a 'rest' in order to conserve fitness... sends the wrong signals to other bowlers.

Something is wrong with the way things are happening here. Maybe as McGrath said today - when you first start off you do try to push your pace too much but then you realise how much more rewarding it is to bowl a bit slower and with less grunt.

It takes a few seasons before you realise that not only do you conserve more energy bowling with less pace, there is also less risk of injury and it actually produces better results through more concentration on making the ball do the work and not trying to use brute pace and force to get wickets... which our young quicks tend to do.

I like the look of Cutting LB.

Bowls nicely, smashes it with the bat. Could be an excellent addition to the Aussie line up

Yeah Gerry, he was talking up his batting funnily enough!

Linebreaker wrote:Yeah Gerry, he was talking up his batting funnily enough!

Saw him belting Pollard in the BBL a few days ago! It was like a home run derby!

But seriously I think his bowling is better than Hilfenhaus'.

Wasn't he set to debut in the last Ashes but got injured?

Yes, he was in the squad of 13 - the day before that 1st Test... then was left out of the final 11 in Brisbane where he had been in top form playing on the 'Gabba.

I don't think we should get too carried away for the Ashes.

Whilst this was a truly special series win, the absolute performance level wasn't quite at 2010-11 standards. I expect the series in the summer to be tight, and that whoever wins it will have enough momentum to win in Oz comfortably.

Australia have clear weaknesses, and maybe aren't much better than in 2010-11. But they do have fighting spirit, are much better in the field than in India and have some good bowlers. The injuries are a major concern, but at least they have a large group of alternatives - its not like their down to picking no-hopers. If they get on the park I think Hilfenhaus/ Pattinson/ Siddle will be a dangerous unit in England.

Lovely batting today, the series sealed up easily for England. Next year - 4 test series victories and a probable return to no.1!

Before that though, some pointless T20s and ODIs.

So that's the worst pitch I've seen in test cricket for quite a while (West Indies 2009 came close arguably). Nothing in it for anyone - spinners, seamers, batsmen. Dreadful. And for a test which India needed to win to save the series. Don't understand.

Talk of declaration was silly- England's bowlers deserved a rest and their batsmen a chance to fill their boots.

Bell will get his usual stick from some quarters, forgetting that when he came in yesterday the wobble was very much on. He played with good intent.

Compton has had a decent if unspectacular series. I think he's done enough to earn the spot there for the start of the next one.

Root is an interesting case. I think he's well suited to no6 actually: plays spin well, nudges and nurdles pretty well and importantly is well suited to deal with the 2nd new ball (which you will often face at 6). England may have found a good'un there.

It's a bit unfortunate for Bairstow, who was essentially dropped because there was a suspicion he couldn't play spin on slow wickets (in practice he showed that he was as good at dealing with the turning ball than supposed spin specialist Patel). Before his test here, his last test match had produced a 90odd and a 50odd against a quality bowling attack. So England do have a genuine decision to make there. My feeling is Bairstow is more of a top-order player than number 6, and I would stick to Root there for now.

The bowlers, if all fit, pick themselves for the following few series. I agree with Boycott who is concerned that Bresnan has lost that crucial yard of pace, and think Onions is probably now first reserve.

I'll comment on India on the reserved thread.

One thing this England team refuses to do is die quietly. Incredible fight.

"The major difference between the two sides was James Anderson who bowled really well." Dhoni.

Can that possibly be right considering the scores that Cook achieved.

gboycottnut wrote:

Olly wrote:Whatever happened to Tremlett?

He got crocked again but hopefully he will be back in time for the ashes test series in Australia next winter as we need his awkward bowling again to make it awkward for the Aussie batsmen to score big runs against us.

Tremlett did a fine job, during a short period, but he does have a something of a track record of injury and I would suggest the chances of him getting back in the running for selection for England are probably somewhat less than 50%. His attempt to come back from long term injury during the middle of last season was fairly painful to watch (as witnesed by the v2 Surrey posters outing to Surrey v Lancs last season!) Time is not really on his side and there are other bowlers, not least Meaker, also from Surrey, who are likely to be in the running in addition to the existing pool of test match bowlers.

It's a shame really because he caused no end of problems in that Ashes series down under. Shame