Give a Man a Fish

Today Leinster Rugby announced the signing of Connacht second row Mike McCarthy who will join the current Heineken Cup champions on a three year deal.

31 year old McCarthy, who won man of the match in Ireland’s narrow defeat against South Africa this Autumn represent the latest in a string of second row signings by the boys in blue.

Following the move of Nathan Hines to Clermont Auvergne in 2011, Leinster have signed short term option after short term option. We have seen the likes of Brad Thorn, Damien Browne, Steven Sykes, Quinn Roux and now Mike McCarthy.

Leinster have produced a stunning array of talented internationals in recent years particularly in the backrow positions. However we have seen the consequences of allowing such a transfer policy within the Irish provinces.

The exact same thing was done at tight head prop for Leinster. It made perfect sense; Munster had John Hayes doing the business for Ireland. Tony Buckley was the great white hope for the future and what harm in them continuing to sign foreign tight heads.

Leinster bounced from Will Green to Ollie le Roux to Stan Wright to Nathan White before finally signing the Irish qualified Mike Ross for the 2010 season. Their efforts to develop the once promising Jamie Hagan has been laughable and another tight head prop has been signed in Michael Bent.

“Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime”. Ultimately Irish rugby faced (and possibly still is facing) a well documented tighthead prop crisis.

Leinster’s attitude to player development and transfer strategies played a part. We all hope the same thing does not happen with second rows. Munster may have three Irish international second rows and Ulster have two. However with O’Connell and O’Callaghan into their mid 30s, Leinster need to start playing their part.

Have they tried and failed Stag? Or have they just thrown up their hands and said,

"Sure, let's just buy another one?"

Definitely the latter.

There is nobody born an international class player.

They have to be developed.

Ulster are doing a good job producing all over the park. Same with Munster.

Developing means a transitional period. It means making mistakes and learning from them.

I feel Leinster are unwilling to make these mistakes and let their performances drop that little bit.

I agree, but all our provinces seem to struggle to develop tight five forwards (with the honourable exception of Munster perhaps, though another generation of Hayes, Horan, POC, DOC etc. seems remote). The problem is we're simply not developing these guys at Academy level. I would have thought we needed a national approach to the tight five at Academy level as a matter of urgency, to find ways to identify guys who could play those roles and get them the maximum amount of gametime and exposure. But we're still kicking the can down the road- like Ian Nagle and Jamie Hagan. These are guys who have been talked up and really they're just wasting away. They aren't being developed.

On the subject of second rows, Iain Henderson looks set to be pressed into service at 5 for Ulster against Saints. He's been doing very well indeed on the blindside and I think that a move from 6 to 5 should happen in a few seasons but the injury to Johann Muller could accelerate that. Keep a close eye on him on Saturday. He'll have to take more responsibility in the set piece, and that'll be a massive challenge for him.

But it's not a risk to give someone like Iain Henderson or Cian Healy a chance. These guys are amazing natural talents. They almost have all the attributes they need coming in and need less coaching and less gametime to adapt- it's the Nagles and Hagans and Macklins of this world were the system is failing.

Its a chicken and egg scenario. The front 5 forwards need games to reach their peak (they generally reach their peak later than most other positions) but the provinces don't want to play them because they're undercooked so the provinces sign foreign players.

Munster have a backlog of second rows. Theres POC, DOC, Ryan, Halland, Ian Nagle, Dave Foley, Brian Hayes, Philip Donnellan and Cathal O'Flaherty. Tom Sears, Connachts head was on radio tonight and said they'll look abroad for a replacement for Mike McCarthy. It doesn't make sense.

Woah, welcome back from v3 Staggy

red_stag wrote:Definitely the latter.

There is nobody born an international class player.

They have to be developed.

Ulster are doing a good job producing all over the park. Same with Munster.

Developing means a transitional period. It means making mistakes and learning from them.

I feel Leinster are unwilling to make these mistakes and let their performances drop that little bit.

I don't see the problem,McCarthy will be starting at lock for Leinster and Cullen will probably retire meaning he'll be partnered by Toner,Browne or Roux.2 IQ players and a project.If we had signed another NIQ short termer like Thorn I could understand the criticism but McCarthy is on a 3 year deal and he'll be a first choice player,it's unrealistic to think that we'll find an entire team of players of sufficient quality to mantain our current standards within the confines of Leinster.

I know this will sound a bit stroppy but you didn't write an article in the summer when Munster with their history of foreign centres signed Lualala and Downey instead of giving Hanrahan,Barnes or Dineen (they can all play in the centre right?)the chance to prove themselves so why the sudden outcry about Leinster?

Ulster had a promotion maybe a year ago where they advertised for "Giants".

They were looking for lads around 16 I think who were very tall. This wasn't aimed at lads who currently played rugby, just tall guys. I presume they did some sort of aptitude tests. I have no idea it they unearthed any potential gems.

Leinster did the same last year,they called it Route 66.

Asoreleftshoulder,

I just think it has got to a stage where Leinster dont produce hookers, they dont produce tightheads, they dont produce second rows, they dont produce scrumhalves, they dont produce centres.

They have done a good job in backrow, flyhalf and back 3 in recent years and I think they should be doing a hell of a lot more.

Yes I wasnt happy with the decision to bring in those centres at Munster but we are shoving youngsters through the ranks. We had the likes of Dave Kilcoyne, Mike Sherry, David O'Callaghan, Peter O'Mahony, Conor Murray, Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Paddy Butler, Stephen Archer, Billy Holland and Duncan Williams all there on Satuday night against Saracens.

Ulster are the same. Paddy McAllister was a real bright light before injury. Henderson looks strong, Luke and Paul Marshall, Paddy Jackson, Nevin Spence before his tragic passing, Craig Gilroy are guys blending seamlessly with the team.

By and large we are producing. Leinster I feel are not. The solution appears to be just buying in players and I think that Leinster will suffer for it.

We have Moore and Furlong coming through at TH,McGrath at LH,Toner and possibly Flanagan at lock,O'Malley,Macken and Reid at centre.It's true we haven't produced any hookers but Harris-Wright was tried and didn't work out plus Cheika wanted SOB to shift to the frontrow and he refused.

Sometimes players of the right quality just don't come through no matter how much you put into them and then you have to sign someone.

Leinster are just at the point were they want to maximise their return for the players they have. Nacewa, bod, D'arcy, Cullen, Ross, Jennings don't have long left so I think this will be there last year genuinely competing with a lot of these guys.

I don't think there is as much of an issue

Props- jack McGrath is getting gametime while furlong is the brightest young TH prospect I can remember
2nd row- beirne and o'connor (who we have since pinched) were the two starting locks at the JRWC when Henderson wasat 6
Backrow- too many to mention!
9- Luke McGrath
10- sexton is now established and madigan is backup
Centre- Reid, Macken, eom, McFadden. The latter has been ruined due to messinghim about positionally but I fail to see how leinster are failing here when they supply both starting Irish centres. The are also trying to turn Jordan coghlan into a 12.

The likes of eom has decent HEC experience and sadly Macken and reid maybe aren't top quality. Conway hasn't set the world on fire but is still young. I think Leinster are producing. Whether Schmidt would trust the youngsters in big games is another question

Stand,

you emphasise my point entirely.

Furlong is the brightest TH prospect you can remember? Leinster sign another tighthead a month ago to reduce his game time further.

Beirne and O'Connor were the U20 starting locks. Leinster have just added in McCarthy on top of Cullen, Toner, Browne, Roux and Denton.

McGrath at 9. That is just a name of a promising player. I remember how promising Paul O'Donoghue was once upon a time. Between Reddan and Boss he isn't getting places.

Again EOM, Macken, Reid, Coghlan etc - Leinster signed in 30 year old Goodman rather than have these guys involved.

Leinsters academy has players. That I am not disputing. We aren't seeing them get chances though. We aren't seeing actual development.

Example take that bloke Furlong. What is being done to develop him? Contrast: Munster development prop John Ryan joined London Irish for 3 months on loan. He came back to us. Then we send another development prop Alan Cotter for 3 months. Cotter then did a stint in Bath for 3 months.

Why aren't Leinster doing this type of thing.

The same can be said about Hanrahan at Munster. Why is ROG being allowed to hold this guy back . He looks like he could be the most talented player in the country but yet he is getting next to no gametime.
Schmidt has done a good job with rotating players and plenty of our academy players are seeing good amount of gametime. Jack McGrath played in the Rabo final and was on the bench against Clermont
I can also see real improvements this season in both Macken and Reid. They are just taking longer to develope as they dont have the natural talent of a Hanrahan or Madigan. Look at McFadden, he's only coming into his prime now at 26.
Re Furlong. He is behind Moore which is why he is getting no gametime. Something has to give here. Im sure either Moore or Hagan will move to Munster at some stage.

I don't think it's fair to expect the provinces to play sub par players and lose games just because the player is from that province.

If a player is good enough he'll get into the team and if he can't be trusted to play PRO12 then he's not gonna be much use to Ireland.

Allow me to pick a few holes in your story.

red_stag wrote:Today Leinster Rugby announced the signing of Connacht second row Mike McCarthy who will join the current Heineken Cup champions on a three year deal.

31 year old McCarthy, who won man of the match in Ireland’s narrow defeat against South Africa this Autumn represent the latest in a string of second row signings by the boys in blue.

Following the move of Nathan Hines to Clermont Auvergne in 2011, Leinster have signed short term option after short term option. We have seen the likes of Brad Thorn, (only signed because Sykes fecked off and Cullen was injured. Totally short term) Damien Browne, (Now in his 2nd year. Perhaps will get more, solid player) Steven Sykes, (Signed as a project on a 3 year deal, just like IQ Ed O'Donaghue the previous year, neither worked out) Quinn Roux (Signed on a 1 year after the 2 previously mentioned feckers didn't work out. Twice bitten once shy) and now Mike McCarthy. (So short term he is here until 2016)

Leinster have produced a stunning array of talented internationals in recent years particularly in the backrow positions. However we have seen the consequences of allowing such a transfer policy within the Irish provinces. What?

The exact same thing was done at tight head prop for Leinster. It made perfect sense; Munster had John Hayes doing the business for Ireland. Tony Buckley was the great white hope for the future and what harm in them continuing to sign foreign tight heads.

Leinster bounced from Will Green to Ollie le Roux to Stan Wright to Nathan White before finally signing the Irish qualified Mike Ross for the 2010 season. Their efforts to develop the once promising Jamie Hagan has been laughable and another IQ tight head prop has been signed in Michael Bent.

Hagan has been given plenty of chances, you can't just persist with a player just because he's there and has shown some promise, they have to deliver consistently and improve consistently. Otherwise you end up with a team of Tony Buckleys. I don't go to Leinster training sessions, but for whatever reason Hagan is not delivering or he would get more game time. He was given a HC start v Montpellier last year to aid his development. My view is that he is a bit hot and cold (like your mate Tony) promising one minute, getting lashed out of it the next.
Bent is 26 and IQ, what's not to like? Coming into his prime propping years. Is now tied to Ireland having been capped, and was discovered and signed by Leinster not the IRFU. Don't get me started on Archer.

Martin Moore, Tadhg Furlong. Quality THs in our academy. Jack O'Connell and Ed Byrne on the Loose head side. Ed's bro Brian, James Treacy and Dave Doyle at Hooker. and that's just the ACADEMY.

There are a couple of 2nd rows in there too, Beirne and Thornbury.

“Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime”. Ultimately Irish rugby faced (and possibly still is facing) a well documented tighthead prop crisis.

Remind me how many props are in the Munster Academy this year?

Leinster’s attitude to player development and transfer strategies played a part. We all hope the same thing does not happen with second rows. Munster may have three Irish international second rows and Ulster have two. However with O’Connell and O’Callaghan into their mid 30s, Leinster need to start playing their part.

As was mentioned, both Ulster and Leinster have tried initiatives to get tall guys in and get them up to speed. These guys don't grow on trees.

Munster did feck all to develop players for years when they were on top. Now they are forced to have a "Scorched Earth" policy and bring through loads of youngsters due to injury and retirement of senior players. Leinster could be in a similar part of their cycle when (for example) Darce and Drico retire.

Leinster blooded shedloads of players last year in the Rabo, rotated lads and played stacks of new guys. They currently have less NIQ players than ALL of the other Irish provinces.

I am not saying Leinster are perfect, but over all are at least as good as the other Provinces at developing players.

There is a balance to be struck between blooding new players and getting the best out of great players who are knocking on. (Like Darce, Drico, Paul O'Connell, John Hayes for example)

You don't want to write off great players like them too early just to "develop" their replacements. But this will lead to a "talent vacuum" when these players eventually retire unless you do some development

For someone who was always a reasonable poster Stag, I think you have gone off to Planet rugby for a few weeks and drunk a few gallons of "Wum juice"

I think you're being a little harsh on Leinster. Up to now they've fallen short in places but they're some excellent players on the way. Tightheads Furlong and Moore. No 8 Jack Conan, 7 Connor Gilsenan, 10/12 Noel Reid, Madigan and a few more. Like the rest of the provinces I think they turn to NIQs a little too quickly.

Staggy - are you really criticising a team that's swept all before it in Europe over the past couple of years? I'm sure if the talent had been there, it would have been spotted.

Schmidt's remit will be to win first and bring on talent incidentally.

If you want to hear something outrageous... from the Irish Times.

Headhunting Henshaw: Connacht angry

Connacht’s anger with Leinster over Mike McCarthy’s move has been exacerbated by an attempt by Munster and Ulster to sign teenage sensation Robbie Henshaw.

The 19-year old has been one of the finds of the season, with Connacht coach Eric Elwood tipping him as a future Ireland international shortly after he made his debut at the outset of the campaign.

Henshaw, who was playing schools rugby six months ago, has played in every game for Connacht this season and has nailed down the fullback spot ahead of the province’s captain Gavin Duffy.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1213/1224327802091.html

Now, considering Ulster have Jared Payne and Peter Nelson and Munster have Felix Jones and Denis Hurley... if the IRFU let that happen, it would be beyond ludicrous for Ireland and Connacht.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Woah, welcome back from v3 Staggy

+1
don't completely agree with the article but welcome back sunshine

Jen, not sure that Stag's having a view that doesn't match yours qualifies him for having been on the WUM juice?

We've got 5 capped front row Irish players on the books, 2 TH's and 2 Hookers. Leinster are doing more for Ireland's "well documented tighthead prop crisis" than any other province.

Is there a crisis in the second row? No.

Looking at the current players available, is there likely to be one in the next few years? No.

Are Leinster actively trying to develope locks from within the province? Yep.

I don't see the issue here.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Woah, welcome back from v3 Staggy

+1
don't completely agree with the article but welcome back sunshine

Oh yeah, I didn't say anything before because I had to go out to the field and catch the fatted calf. Damn thing gave me the run around and dragged me through several muddy puddles. So, hopefully you enjoy your feast

I think you are trying to make a point there, Notch, but I'm afraid I'm struggling to get what you're driving at? Put it down to old age

Asbo!

You disappoint me.

Clearly that v3 dive has dulled your senses!

Even more than they were already dulled.

Which, to be fair, was quite dull. But they are clearly even duller now.

Poor dab!



Have a wee

I said HAVE A WEE

I wish he'd use those hearing aids you know!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Jen, not sure that Stag's having a view that doesn't match yours qualifies him for having been on the WUM juice?

I just thought it was a bit out of character for him to write a post like this. While he has always been one for advocating developing young Irish players. (To an excessive degree perhaps in my opinion, but that's no problem) He has never been one to start picking on one province over another. Wrongly in my opinion. (there's that word again)

You could level the same criticisms at any of the provinces, and I was surprised that a previously wum free poster had taken this tack. Especially after a break. I though perhaps he had come back to test drive a new posting style.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

I think Notch is implying Red Stag's return is akin to that of the prodigal son, as the fatted calf was prepared upon his return.

Lads there is no wum here. I get that a lot of you don't agree with the point I've made but I don't think it could be construed as a wum in the slightest.

My point plain and simply is that Leinster are buying not building a team. I don't believe that anyone is born a good player they develop into it through hard work, match experiences and good coaching. Leinster are churning out backrow players at a rate of knots but that is not being replicated throughout the team. I feel it is not a coincidence that they can do so well producing players in one position (McLaughlin, Dom Ryan, Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Rhys Ruddock etc) and yet have the cupboard entirely empty in other positions like hooker, second row and scrum half especially.

Its not an IQ or NIQ debate - Leisnter more than do their part here.

They have loads of Irish lads but just point out that a large number of them such as Mike Ross or Eoin Reddan or Sean Cronin or Isaac Boss or Tom Denton or Damian Browne or Andrew Goodman or Mike McCarthy or Michael Bent are just signed up.

We were waxing lyrical 2 ago about guys like O'Malley, McFadden, Conway, Toner, Ruddock, Paul O'Donoghue etc. I don't see a reason that it will be any better for the likes of Reid, Moore or Luke McGrath.

Quick question.

How much say do the IRFU have over the movement of IQ players between the provinces?

In essence I am asking if Munster for example had 4 top class full backs on the books and and one of the others had none, could the IRFU force a move. In the same vein, could they block a transfer if one province was collecting all the talent from the others?

Ozzy,

Honest answer is I don't know. I know that for the top guys on central contracts they answer direct to IRFU and same with "project players" I believe they are contracted to IRFU.

The big rumour Im hearing is that the IRFU are keen for Mike Ross to replace BJ Botha at Munster on a central contract.

red_stag wrote:Lads there is no wum here. I get that a lot of you don't agree with the point I've made but I don't think it could be construed as a wum in the slightest.

Fair enough. No worries.

I don't want to descend into a slagging match about which province has developed which players in which positions. They all have blind spots in certain positions. They all go in cycles.

Leinster have stalled a little bit in backs development for example, which was always a strength. The Academy is stuffed with forwards. We took in almost a full pack this year. I'm sure we will bring in predominantly backs this year. The talent is there.

I am not going to pick holes in other provinces positions of weakness. Being more positive, Ulster are bringing through a lot of young players at the moment. Munster are finally getting a few good backs through which used to be a weakness. Leinster are getting a lot of forwards through most of whom I mentioned earlier.

There are even a couple of scrum halves (Cooney and McGrath) a position we have always had a problem with.

I think perhaps that because Munster have been forced to develop youngsters because they are at that point in their cycle, you are looking at Leinster (who may soon be coming to that point) and saying they are doing nothing to develop players.

red_stag wrote:
The big rumour Im hearing is that the IRFU are keen for Mike Ross to replace BJ Botha at Munster on a central contract.

How do you feel about that Stag?

Should you not be developing YOUNG props?

(And before you say you developed Ross. I think he is gone 6 years having got 1 senior cap for Munster)

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:I think perhaps that because Munster have been forced to develop youngsters because they are at that point in their cycle, you are looking at Leinster (who may soon be coming to that point) and saying they are doing nothing to develop players.

Possibly thats it. I really have felt for a long time that Leinster royally shafted us when it came to props until they eventually bought Mike Ross. I'm seeing similar now at second row to a lesser extent. Reading the threads on this forum Leinster fans would love to welcome in Richie Gray once Sale Sharks get relegated.

Regarding Mike Ross moving to Munster, if he moved in to replace Botha I'd be happy enough. I do think that we have a good tighthead amongst Ryan, Cotter or Archer. They're getting great game time but just aren't there yet.

I wouldn't like to think that we would just keep buying in tightheads. For example if we bought Andress in another two years you would need to be asking serious questions.

The #12 shirt is a position that we have done it and I think Munster have to shoulder a lot of blame for our weaknesses internationally there.

If Cotter, Kelly and Archer turn out to be shyte then you won't have an option. You can only give a player so much game time, if they are not doing the business you have to do something.

If there is a gap in your development cycle then you have to buy in.

At that point it is better to buy Irish, but you still have to buy.

Not saying that none of them will make it. But at the moment none of them look the part.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:If Cotter, Kelly and Archer turn out to be shyte then you won't have an option. You can only give a player so much game time, if they are not doing the business you have to do something.

If there is a gap in your development cycle then you have to buy in.

At that point it is better to buy Irish, but you still have to buy.

Not saying that none of them will make it. But at the moment none of them look the part.

Thats true. However if there is one position in rugby you can make a silk purse out of a sows ear then its prop.

Constant game time, total dedication to scrums and time can do it. Look at Adam Jones or to a lesser extent Mike Ross.

I will be very annoyed if one of them isn't good enough to hold down a starting role at Munster for 2-3 years.

Soon in the backs we should see Adam Byrne, Harrison Brewer(son of former all black Mike Brewer. There is a lot of hype around this guy already and he's only 17. He's being built as the next big thing) and Tom Daly in the academy.

All three are being hyped up and they are still in their teens. So it shouldn't be too long until we start producing the backs again.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Soon in the backs we should see Adam Byrne, Harrison Brewer(son of former all black Mike Brewer. There is a lot of hype around this guy already and he's only 17. He's being built as the next big thing) and Tom Daly in the academy.

All three are being hyped up and they are still in their teens. So it shouldn't be too long until we start producing the backs again.

Agreed. Remember the hype around Conway and Macken though when they were 17. Absolutely not writing either of them off in any way, but they have had a dip from their "Legends in the making" schools form.

It can be hard to tell sometimes with underage rugby

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Soon in the backs we should see Adam Byrne, Harrison Brewer(son of former all black Mike Brewer. There is a lot of hype around this guy already and he's only 17. He's being built as the next big thing) and Tom Daly in the academy.

All three are being hyped up and they are still in their teens. So it shouldn't be too long until we start producing the backs again.

Agreed. Remember the hype around Conway and Macken though when they were 17. Absolutely not writing either of them off in any way, but they have had a dip from their "Legends in the making" schools form.

It can be hard to tell sometimes with underage rugby

I've seen a real improvement in Macken this year. He looks more willing to take on players. He has the pace, power and step to be a really good player. He just needs to sort out his tackling. I don't think he's far off from being a top player.

Him and Reid look great with ball in hand. A bit scary in defence though.

They were the centre pairing for our early season thrashings

Would like to see Reid going to the RFU Championship for a bit to harden him up a bit. That league really is great for developing players.

red_stag wrote:Lads there is no wum here. I get that a lot of you don't agree with the point I've made but I don't think it could be construed as a wum in the slightest.

My point plain and simply is that Leinster are buying not building a team. I don't believe that anyone is born a good player they develop into it through hard work, match experiences and good coaching. Leinster are churning out backrow players at a rate of knots but that is not being replicated throughout the team. I feel it is not a coincidence that they can do so well producing players in one position (McLaughlin, Dom Ryan, Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Rhys Ruddock etc) and yet have the cupboard entirely empty in other positions like hooker, second row and scrum half especially.

Its not an IQ or NIQ debate - Leisnter more than do their part here.

They have loads of Irish lads but just point out that a large number of them such as Mike Ross or Eoin Reddan or Sean Cronin or Isaac Boss or Tom Denton or Damian Browne or Andrew Goodman or Mike McCarthy or Michael Bent are just signed up.

We were waxing lyrical 2 ago about guys like O'Malley, McFadden, Conway, Toner, Ruddock, Paul O'Donoghue etc. I don't see a reason that it will be any better for the likes of Reid, Moore or Luke McGrath.

So what do you think the problem is with these lads,do you think they haven't been given game time?

What's happened is PoD just wasn't good enough,he was given chances then released when it became obvious he wasn't up to it.McFadden has developed into a multi capped international winger,he's not the best winger we'll ever have but again I don't see what more Leinster can do with him.Conway and Ruddock have had loads of chances at Rabo level but haven't really done enough to suggest they deserve to be promoted,are you suggesting they should play in the big games just because they're young and from Leinster?O'Malley has stepped up quite well and will take over the 13 shirt from BoD quite well,I have no issues with him it's just a pity he was injured when we really needed him this year.

Very hard to tell with school boys. One of the most talented and dedicated schools players I had seen was a lad called Andrew Burke.

He was listed in 2010 as one to watch - http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/irish-news/the-next-generation-2044646.html

He played Ireland U19, Ireland U20, Munster Academy etc etc and to me it was a no brainer.

However it seemed that he peaked at age 17.

The last we saw of him he had his chance to shine. Came on in the Rabo when we were losing by a few points. The chance to bring youthful attack into the game and claim a win.

He threw an intercept pass and we lost. Still plays a bit of AIL now with Young Munster and is a schools rugby coach.

However its so hard to tell how these guys end up.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Him and Reid look great with ball in hand. A bit scary in defence though.

They were the centre pairing for our early season thrashings

They are our third choice centre pairing,we've really missed O'Malley badly.

ASLS,

It isn't just about giving game time. Its about providing them with quality coaching and helping them make the step up and realise their potential.

I dont think this is happening. Conway and Ruddock aren't poor players. McFadden had the potential to be a truly great #12. Not a decent winger.

red_stag wrote:Very hard to tell with school boys. One of the most talented and dedicated schools players I had seen was a lad called Andrew Burke.

He was listed in 2010 as one to watch - http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/irish-news/the-next-generation-2044646.html

He played Ireland U19, Ireland U20, Munster Academy etc etc and to me it was a no brainer.

However it seemed that he peaked at age 17.

The last we saw of him he had his chance to shine. Came on in the Rabo when we were losing by a few points. The chance to bring youthful attack into the game and claim a win.

He threw an intercept pass and we lost. Still plays a bit of AIL now with Young Munster and is a schools rugby coach.

However its so hard to tell how these guys end up.

Indeed. On the flip side you have fellas who appear out of nowhere like Robbie Henshaw or improves dramatically like Kieran Marmion. I remember Marmion was getting heavily criticised playing for the U20s with people saying hes too slow, can't pass etc etc.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Quick question.

How much say do the IRFU have over the movement of IQ players between the provinces?

In essence I am asking if Munster for example had 4 top class full backs on the books and and one of the others had none, could the IRFU force a move. In the same vein, could they block a transfer if one province was collecting all the talent from the others?

I think theres moves underway to bring in someone to oversee all signings involving the provinces. The hope is there'll be more movement between provinces and resources will be used more efficiently.

red_stag wrote:ASLS,

It isn't just about giving game time. Its about providing them with quality coaching and helping them make the step up and realise their potential.

I dont think this is happening. Conway and Ruddock aren't poor players. McFadden had the potential to be a truly great #12. Not a decent winger.

Do you truly believe Leinster aren't doing this?

Conway and Ruddock both have time on their side they may improve but how do you suggest Leinster speed up the process,if they aren't playing well enough at Rabo level then what more can Schmidt and co. do?

McFaddens potential is your opinion,I always felt he could be a very good 12 and should have ousted D'Arcy before now but Cheika,Schmidt and Kidney have all disagreed with me.Unfortunately trying to prove he could have been a truly great 12 is like trying to prove there is a God.

ASLS, I believe they are doing it badly. I believe there are too many gaps being plugged for me to beleive they are doing a good job of coaching young players into quality professionals.

There will always be those who fall through the cracks but at some stage its a a pattern not a coincidence.

profitius wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Quick question.

How much say do the IRFU have over the movement of IQ players between the provinces?

In essence I am asking if Munster for example had 4 top class full backs on the books and and one of the others had none, could the IRFU force a move. In the same vein, could they block a transfer if one province was collecting all the talent from the others?

I think theres moves underway to bring in someone to oversee all signings involving the provinces. The hope is there'll be more movement between provinces and resources will be used more efficiently.

As long as the players are given a choice, and not shoehorned into something against their will (i.e. blackmailed, coerced or forced) I would think that would be a positive.

Hard to get a neutral view though as the IRFU are notoriously biased to one province or another historically.

red_stag wrote:Stand,

you emphasise my point entirely.

Furlong is the brightest TH prospect you can remember? Leinster sign another tighthead a month ago to reduce his game time further.

Beirne and O'Connor were the U20 starting locks. Leinster have just added in McCarthy on top of Cullen, Toner, Browne, Roux and Denton.

McGrath at 9. That is just a name of a promising player. I remember how promising Paul O'Donoghue was once upon a time. Between Reddan and Boss he isn't getting places.

Again EOM, Macken, Reid, Coghlan etc - Leinster signed in 30 year old Goodman rather than have these guys involved.

Leinsters academy has players. That I am not disputing. We aren't seeing them get chances though. We aren't seeing actual development.

Example take that bloke Furlong. What is being done to develop him? Contrast: Munster development prop John Ryan joined London Irish for 3 months on loan. He came back to us. Then we send another development prop Alan Cotter for 3 months. Cotter then did a stint in Bath for 3 months.

Why aren't Leinster doing this type of thing.

Furlong has been injured for much of this season to date. He is only U20 and has to be managed. It is very likely his gametime will coincide with Ross leaving or retiring (rumours about him to munster already). I don't see the issue given that the three options ahead of a very young and green furlong are all IQ.

Regarding the locks, Browne won't be around much longer, Cullen ditto, roux will most likely be let go this season and McCarthy, toner et al are IQ.

EOM has been injured for much of this season so wasn't an option and to be honest I don't think Macken or Reid are good enough. The only option would have been to move McFadden in and use Conway who again hasn't kicked on. Coghlan could never be considered at this point. I think they areproducing but some of what they have produced just isn't as good as hoped.

A for the likes of McGrath well he is a promising player with a year of U20s still to go. The only players from that U20s who are getting gametime are

Farrell - pre injury
Henderson- plenty of gametime. Was the best of that bunch and is getting gametime in part due to fez injury
Marmion- given connachts resources this isn't surprising.
Jackson- left out of u20s because we new he was our first choice
Nelson

So in that regard where are scannell and JJ. By far the most criminal in all this is the underuse of JJ IMO. The blame can't solely be levelled at one province. Leinster have a group of players that have won 2 heineken cups and they want a third so I think this will be the last year for a good few before they transition. Munster are in at process which is why we see some youngsters but when Hayes, horan and flattery were in situ we saw no new guys coming in