Jonny Sexton - Lions 10 certainty

First topic message reminder :

Ok at this point its early days and the 6 nations is yet to come but in the last few months every article Ive read, every former or current player "my lions team" selection have him as a nailed on test starter. Whereas no other player seems to be making evey list.

Is he really the best option right now?

Wilkos stock is certainly rising but surely his lack of International game time wont help.
Priestland seems to have lost his mojo.
Farrell is good but maybe a little inexperienced?
Hodgson just dosent make it happen enough.
Cips plays for Sale and is mad as a brush.
Biggar doesnt get a look in with Wales often enough.
Too soon for Burns.
Flood is a viable option but possibly not quite as good.
O'Gara way past it.
No standout Scot option. Laidlaw is currently playing 9?!?

O'Driscoll is the same as O'Gara. Both at same level. Good to have at club level and nice to know that there is an experienced option if needed but really not international class anymore. There on reputation.

red_stag wrote:O'Driscoll is the same as O'Gara. Both at same level. Good to have at club level and nice to know that there is an experienced option if needed but really not international class anymore. There on reputation.

Absolute nonsense. What a ridiculous comment, Drico is still first choice 13 for Ireland because he is still better than all other options. OGara really shouldnt even be on the bench.

I would be willing to bet that provided he doesnt get injured Drico will tour. OGara hasnt a hope to put it mildly.

Drico probably will tour. BOD the Brand will be perfect from a marketing point of view. Same reason he hangs around Ireland still.

Nowhere near the likes of Conrad Smith, Jaque Fourie, Manu Tuilagi, Jonathan Davies, Aurelien Rougerie etc.

Red Stag,

Well, who would you havefor Ireland instead of Drico??

Earls? No way! Has proved time and time again he is not a centre, poor passing, butchers simple 2 vs 1's etc... Leave him on the wing where he can do damage (prob not even 1st choice there either now)

Cave? Would like to see him be given a fair lash but Kidney doesn't seem to rate him. Key man in a very exiting Ulster backline.

No one else is 1st choice for their provence

Kidneys love childs are: ROG, Earls, Murray, DOC and D'Arcy. Neither of these can get dropped no matter how badly they play or even if they are dropped by their provence.

How is he a brand? Stop talking shoite. Fourie plays in Japan so he is past it, doesnt qualify for the Lions anyway nor does Smith so no idea how they are relevant to any sensible discussion. Rougerie is a better winger and played most his career on the wing, again ineligable. Tuilagi is front runner right now. Davies is very useful too but not necessarly better than Drico.

Drico can play either first or second centre whereas other options arent quite as versatile nor experienced. He is currently in rude health and as he has proven time and again in his career he has always raised his game when the doubters are prevalent. Im sure Roberts, Drico, Tuilagi and Davies will all travel.

Ireland don't have top class centres I'm afraid but we aren't talking Ireland we're talking Lions. Jonathan Davies, Manu Tuilagi are both leading the charge for 13. BOD the Brand could feature but has hardly featured due to injury so isn't a form pick, won't be picked on his current ability and lacks the verstaility to be a good backup.

With regards to your list. Not quite sure how O'Callaghan is in that list. He only plays because Paul O'Connell is injured. Same with O'Gara. He isn't first choice. Murray is a young exciting scrumhalf and is being given the chance while McGrath and Heaney come through. Darcy should be replaced by Luke Marshall. Earls only plays centre with O'Driscoll is injured.

Anyway lets get back to talking Lions 10s. Dont want to drag a thread off topic.

Lest we forget the most simple of rugby equations:

O'Gara + Lions + Brainfart + Utterly Pointless Saffer Penalty = NEVER, EVER AGAIN.

The man's not even the first choice for his club.

George Carlin wrote:
O'Gara + Lions + Brainfart + Utterly Pointless Saffer Penalty = NEVER, EVER AGAIN.

Very true.

Garland is a forwards man....he will take one look at the Oz team sheet and see; Genia, Cooper, Barnes, Beale, O'Connor and the other winger whose name escapes me and play a 10 man game. The Lions will have better combinations in the front, second and back rows and that is where we will beatthem.
Deans would love the Lions to attempt a running game with scratch combinations....

Who would you bet your house on for a last minute drop goal.....there is only one 10 for that and it is not Sexton.

Recwatcher wrote:Who would you bet your house on for a last minute drop goal.....there is only one 10 for that and it is not Sexton.

You're right. O'Gara has to tour.

Recwatcher wrote:Garland is a forwards man....he will take one look at the Oz team sheet and see; Genia, Cooper, Barnes, Beale, O'Connor and the other winger whose name escapes me and play a 10 man game. The Lions will have better combinations in the front, second and back rows and that is where we will beatthem.
Deans would love the Lions to attempt a running game with scratch combinations....

Who would you bet your house on for a last minute drop goal.....there is only one 10 for that and it is not Sexton.

It sure as sh!t isn't Cooper, Beale or O'Connor either.

Recwatcher wrote:
Who would you bet your house on for a last minute drop goal.....there is only one 10 for that and it is not Sexton.

Rob Andrew? ...

George Carlin wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:Garland is a forwards man....he will take one look at the Oz team sheet and see; Genia, Cooper, Barnes, Beale, O'Connor and the other winger whose name escapes me and play a 10 man game. The Lions will have better combinations in the front, second and back rows and that is where we will beatthem.
Deans would love the Lions to attempt a running game with scratch combinations....

Who would you bet your house on for a last minute drop goal.....there is only one 10 for that and it is not Sexton.

It sure as sh!t isn't Cooper, Beale or O'Connor either.

Yeah. They'd just score or set up a try instead

In the case of Cooper, for the Lions with a ridiculous flip-pass interception. Probably to Bowe

red_stag wrote:I don't understand people's qualms about Wilkinson as a backup player.

He is too slow and is not able to get a back line going. He seems to get better and better in the imagination / memory of some. His day is gone.

Recwatcher wrote:

Who would you bet your house on for a last minute drop goal.....there is only one 10 for that and it is not Sexton.

Duncan Weir!

I would really really hope for a more ambitious gameplan than this anyway

Recwatcher wrote:

Who would you bet your house on for a last minute drop goal.....there is only one 10 for that and it is not Sexton.

Ehhh...

Leicester '09?
London Irish '09?
Bath '11?
Australia '11?
Treviso '12?

ChequeredJersey wrote:In the case of Cooper, for the Lions with a ridiculous flip-pass interception. Probably to Bowe

Yes - need to keep up the proud charitable tradition that David Campese started.

Recwatcher wrote:

Who would you bet your house on for a last minute drop goal.....there is only one 10 for that and it is not Sexton.

Sorry but Sexton has a string of well known drop goals to his name longer than most 10's I can think of. Including ridiculously long distance ones and last minute ones.

Last night i watched the England V Ireland 6ns game 2012.

The game that Johnny Sexton was totaly out played by Owen Farrell.

So why is Johnny Sexton nailed on for the 10 shirt for the Lions?

majesticimperialman wrote:Last night i watched the England V Ireland 6ns game 2012.

The game that Johnny Sexton was totaly out played by Owen Farrell.

So why is Johnny Sexton nailed on for the 10 shirt for the Lions?

Have you seen Sexton play any other games? Maybe the ones where he won the Heineken Cup twice...?

majesticimperialman wrote:Last night i watched the England V Ireland 6ns game 2012.

The game that Johnny Sexton was totaly out played by Owen Farrell.

So why is Johnny Sexton nailed on for the 10 shirt for the Lions?

Maj, as much as this is a WUM, did you see Sexton vs England in 2011? Or how about vs Leicester in 2009? Saints in 2011? Ulster in 2012? Australia in the WC? Argentina in November? You're havin' a laugh mate!

majesticimperialman wrote:Last night i watched the England V Ireland 6ns game 2012.

The game that Johnny Sexton was totaly out played by Owen Farrell.

So why is Johnny Sexton nailed on for the 10 shirt for the Lions?

Because he is the best 10 on the two islands?

maestegmafia wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Last night i watched the England V Ireland 6ns game 2012.

The game that Johnny Sexton was totaly out played by Owen Farrell.

So why is Johnny Sexton nailed on for the 10 shirt for the Lions?

Have you seen Sexton play any other games? Maybe the ones where he won the Heineken Cup twice...?

He won it three times :-)

GunsGerms wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Last night i watched the England V Ireland 6ns game 2012.

The game that Johnny Sexton was totaly out played by Owen Farrell.

So why is Johnny Sexton nailed on for the 10 shirt for the Lions?

Have you seen Sexton play any other games? Maybe the ones where he won the Heineken Cup twice...?

He won it three times :-)

Guys, can we get this sorted, dId sexton win those Heneken cup game's playing for Lenster or "IRELAND"?

I am pretty sure that if, if sexton does tour with the Lions he will be representing (IRELAND) and not Lenster ok?

majesticimperialman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Last night i watched the England V Ireland 6ns game 2012.

The game that Johnny Sexton was totaly out played by Owen Farrell.

So why is Johnny Sexton nailed on for the 10 shirt for the Lions?

Have you seen Sexton play any other games? Maybe the ones where he won the Heineken Cup twice...?

He won it three times :-)

Guys, can we get this sorted, dId sexton win those Heneken cup game's playing for Lenster or "IRELAND"?

I am pretty sure that if, if sexton does tour with the Lions he will be representing (IRELAND) and not Lenster ok?

Admittedly Sexton has been generally decent with the odd flash of brilliance for Ireland and consistently excellent for "Lenster".

I think this is down to respective gameplans and the ROG factor though.

GunsGerms wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Last night i watched the England V Ireland 6ns game 2012.

The game that Johnny Sexton was totaly out played by Owen Farrell.

So why is Johnny Sexton nailed on for the 10 shirt for the Lions?

Have you seen Sexton play any other games? Maybe the ones where he won the Heineken Cup twice...?

He won it three times :-)

I meant to add in succession... Thanks for the amendment though.

TJ wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Last night i watched the England V Ireland 6ns game 2012.

The game that Johnny Sexton was totaly out played by Owen Farrell.

So why is Johnny Sexton nailed on for the 10 shirt for the Lions?

Because he is the best 10 on the two islands?

The best Lions qualified 10 on these islands

majesticimperialman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Last night i watched the England V Ireland 6ns game 2012.

The game that Johnny Sexton was totaly out played by Owen Farrell.

So why is Johnny Sexton nailed on for the 10 shirt for the Lions?

Have you seen Sexton play any other games? Maybe the ones where he won the Heineken Cup twice...?

He won it three times :-)

Guys, can we get this sorted, dId sexton win those Heneken cup game's playing for Lenster or "IRELAND"?

I am pretty sure that if, if sexton does tour with the Lions he will be representing (IRELAND) and not Lenster ok?

No if he is picked for the Lions he will be representing the Lions.

conor george finds a way to right about rog every week its hilarious. he was awful v cardiff who are not a very good side.

I have seen Sexton have plenty of poor games but never shirk a drop goal and in fact he has made some crucial ones over the years. My main gripe with him at the moment is taking on some kicks out of his range.

As of today i would have Sexton, Farrell and Burns as a bolter. However the 6 nations could change all of this.

With regard to Ireland i would not retire ROG to stud just yet. I am not 100% convinced by the kicking of Madigan or Jackson.

majesticimperialman wrote:Last night i watched the England V Ireland 6ns game 2012.

The game that Johnny Sexton was totaly out played by Owen Farrell.

Ah yes, the game where Farrell had an armchair ride and Sexton was behind an Irish pack getting mullered at every scrum. Let's base Lions selection on matches like these!

The drop goal comment is a strange one alright.

Sexton has kicked plenty of crucial drops in important games, HC final 2009 and WC pool game against Aus immediately spring to mind.

He’s probably the front runner now, but nothing’s going to be decided until after the 6nations (the squad is usually picked around the end of April/start of May right?).

Sexton is a class above Farrell at the moment, we're lucky to have him as a lions option. No standout 10s otherwise.

Drop goal coment was probably more aimed as praise to Wilko than anything else. In any case Sexton never plays the last 10 minutes for Ireland because Mr Bean thinks he cant close out matches. So you can understand why someone might not know how good his DGs are.

Sexton is currently the best of an average bunch. Flood is more talented but has spent a large part of the last year putting himself out of contention with numerous injuries and a dubious tackle or two. Right now I wouldn’t bet against Jonny travelling.

Ironically we had an amazing bunch of #10s in 2005.

O'Gara was in his pomp, Stephen Jones was playing fantastic rugby, Jonny Wilkinson was still excellent and probably the best flyhalf on tour was Charlie Hodgson. Even Gavin Henson would have slotted in at a pinch.

We don't have a flyhalf at that level on this tour. As Barney says, best of a bad bunch (bit like the #2 shirt).

Its all relative to the opposition I guess. The 05 FH class was good but easily bested by Carter. With JW not fit and lacking match practice after near 18 months of no rugby there was no one close to Carter on that tour.

Sexton, Farrell, Wilkinson are not bad players and won't limit the side however.
They should be able to match Cooper, Beale, Barnes (whoever plays pivot) so in this case FH is not an area I have concerns about on this tour.

I guess I should qualify my view, that the Irish folk have picked up on. I never said Sexton doesn't do DGs it is just that I would not put my house on it. Gatland will want to beat the Oz up front as the Oz backline, when settled and fit is as good as any Test side out there.

Unless you go back to the seventies, the Lions have never scored many tries in the Tests and if they attempt running rugby with Pocock lurking in midfield, they won't win.

Gatland will pick a team for territory and possession and Sexton will go but not be guaranteed the slot, despite being the most experienced.

Ok, fair enough so you predict that Sexton won’t be the best choice to fit in with the gameplan that Gatland will use the beat the Aussies? That’s a little different to what I thought you were implying. (i.e. that Sexton can’t handle big games).

You may be right. But Gatland’s gameplan for beating Australia hasn’t been too successful with Wales, so maybe he’ll look at how Ireland/Scotland/England have beaten them recently and leverage those weapons at his disposal.

If the Lions travel 17,000 km to Australia (via Hong Kong) just to play like Scotland I think I'll be a victim of spontaneous combustion.

Unfortunately it counted for little Stag because DC would well and truly take over the supreme title for 10 in world rugby.

In a way the decision might be made easier if Lions management know who the Wallaby flyhalf will be. Genia has to regain full fitness and then a decision has to be made by Deans. Will he give a lifeline to cooper or will he persist in Beale in that option and put AAC at fullback. Barnes kicks away far too much ball needlessly and probably put himself out of contention on last year's performances. JOC can come back and it'll be interesting to see where they play the wee fella as he could be an outside bet as well or at least at inside centre.

You pick a certain player to do a certain job. You pick somebody like Farrell to kick his goals and plug for territory and lose the lineout as a weapon. I've yet to see Sexton consistently playing at international level how he plays for Leinster. Put that down to Kidney or whatever but if you do pick him what are you picking him for? Depending on your centre combination (personally I'd plump for a JD Tuilagi partnership) you would want Sexton to run at the line and release with a pop pass either to a man inside from the backrow, the fullback coming up, or JD running an angle away from the line of attack. He's also got to do some intelligent kicking putting in some angled grubbers to break the defensive line or some angled cross kicks. We all know he can do this, it's just that we have to see it at test level against a savvy Wallaby backline who will be back near to full fitness and much more of a dangerous presence than last year and look how they went against the north and Wales apart from the humiliation against France. Frankly, that should've happened more games because they had ludicrously difficult problems with injuries. And yet I think they are the world's best team at hiding their deficiencies and making what they have work for them. It's incredible how they punch above their weight against the might of SA and NZ time and time again with much fewer resources.

It's easy to say pick a monster pack and carve up the marshmallow Wallaby forwards. But it ain't that easy. Look at the England vs Australia game. They can hold their own and I'm not talking about onanism although I'd be lying if I hadn't called them a pack of w**kers before. You know? Banter. Friendly jibes. They're our cuzzies and they're good people. They're just not allowed to beat us at rugby and we're supposed not to win at league. It was a clandestine deal and sometimes there's bad blood because certain teams went against that deal.

I digress. Choose your man at 10 who is they key playmaker. But have a very good idea as to what type of game your 10 is going to play and know that the man you choose can perform that job. Also who is going to be your man at halfback. If it's Phillips, I think whoever is at 10 will get plenty of attention from the Wallaby loosies. If it's Care, then it gives a bit more space and time for someone like Sexton who will appreciate that more. Give him very little room and time and I think he might well struggle. He's a confidence player like every other player and if things go bad, then he's not your best man for the job. It doesn't help having O'Gara on the bench undermining what you're supposed to be doing out there but when he's been on the losing side, the games I've seen with Sexton for Ireland have seen his ugly side come out. That's probably more to do with Kidney and the environment he's set up there but it's something no doubt Gatland will take into account.

It's between Farrell and Sexton for me and that may well be flyhalves for the tournaments. Who will start and who is on the bench depends on many factors not least of which first up is 6N form. Who can control a game? Who looks confident attacking? Who looks assured at kicking? These qualities are some of the things Gatland will be looking at. Really you can only go on test form. Club form may well be a chance to see some fringe players but it'll be the 6N where the players will be chosen because test rugby reveals a player's true character and ability. Nowhere to hide. If a 10 looks comfortable with the ball at test level, it's because the 10 is comfortable with test rugby. Confucius great great great great grandson wrote that.

red_stag wrote:If the Lions travel 17,000 km to Australia (via Hong Kong) just to play like Scotland I think I'll be a victim of spontaneous combustion.

You mean win Staggy? I don't think it'll be a big surprise. This series is going to a 2-1 decider in my view.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Unfortunately it counted for little Stag because DC would well and truly take over the supreme title for 10 in world rugby.

Yes a good point. Its why I said it was ironic. You dont need to be the best to win a game just better than opposition.

I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE it if instead of O'Gara v Sexton debates all through the 6 Nations we had a Farrell v Sexton debate.

Would add something new to the 6 Nations.

Id love if OGara wasnt picked for the 6n too.

red_stag wrote:If the Lions travel 17,000 km to Australia (via Hong Kong) just to play like Scotland I think I'll be a victim of spontaneous combustion.

You don't have to be the best to win, just better than the opposition.

- Red_Stag - about 5 seconds ago

Mickado wrote:

red_stag wrote:If the Lions travel 17,000 km to Australia (via Hong Kong) just to play like Scotland I think I'll be a victim of spontaneous combustion.

You don't have to be the best to win, just better than the opposition.

- Red_Stag - about 5 seconds ago

Sometimes I even manage to surprise myself.

Not even that. You don't have to be the best to win, you just have to win. Chelsea 2011 Champions League Trophy winners.

red_stag wrote:I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE it if instead of O'Gara v Sexton debates all through the 6 Nations we had a Farrell v Sexton debate.

Would add something new to the 6 Nations.

Haha. Although Burns v Sexton would be more apt, as they look similar and play similar.

This shot of Burns looks loads like Sexton: http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/8387722/Freddie-Burns-excited-by-challenge-of-winning-a-place-in-the-England-side

red_stag wrote:I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE it if instead of O'Gara v Sexton debates all through the 6 Nations we had a Farrell v Sexton debate.

Would add something new to the 6 Nations.

+1