To Kelly Brown or not to Kelly Brown?

With the forthcoming 6 nations around the corner my Scottish poster friends are getting a little bit excited and even a little hopeful of winning a game, but one area of discussion is Kelly Brown. Should he play, where he should play and if he should be captain?

After the AI, many now want him to play only if he is in his best position (6) and most seem to be less than keen on his captaincy, so lets see what we have to say!

Personally I think that if push came to shove I would have Kelly at 6 or 8. He does play well at 8 for Sarries and is a reasonable cover for that position.

While we Scots think we have great strenght and depth at 8, looking at form at the current moment I am not so sure. The main alternatives that are likely to be considered for the 6 nations are (there are others pushing but imo will not be selected for the 6N)

Denton - play stormingly last year, but has been poor this year. Needs to re-discover his passion and form orcould find himself second fiddle. IMO at the moment KB and Denton are about equal in performances at 8 - so could be a split decision - what may save Denton is the potential, as his best at 8 is better than KB at 8

Beattie - 2010 the best around, 2011 and 2012 in the wildeness - 2013 starting to find his form and playing for a place. Not assured yet and many question marks remain - was it attitude, unlucky, injuries that did him in. Has he over come them

Over all I would like to hjave Beattie and Denton as the 8, so common sense does keep KB at 6 (but as cover for 8 if needed)

His Captaincy

Not the brighesst start to his captaincy to be fair. Some hesitation, some weak looking calls and maybe some inexperience in the role. But after 3 games to call for his armband - I am not sure that is fair. Who knows if it was the reign of Robinson that made it impossible to express yourself, a game plan that had to be followed, a team who was unhappy with the manager and generally a bunch of McHaggis not helping his cause

Will a new start unleash the Eyebrows and let him make his own mark. I think so and think he should remain captain for the 6 nations and if still on form to be picked at 6 - for the rest of 2013 - give him the space to grow and I think we will be rewarded

So in summary (waffle aside), on the team sheet

6 - Kelly Brown (c)

you forgot wilson, he's made a good showing recently

I like Brown - heart on his sleeve and never gives anything less than his best. Captain? Its hard to see a better candidate - Laidlaw perhaps?

Kelly Brown should only play 6, he is an average number 8 and a poor 7. He should also be the captain for the 6 Nations.

The only slight issue is that Rob Harley is (and always has) playing consistently well for Glasgow, and is also a specialist 6. Given the lack of options available at 7 though, and assuming Rennie, Barclay and Fusaro are injured, I'd start Harley at 7 against England. He's not a hugely different player to Robshaw.

We have too many good options at 8 to play Kelly Brown there. Denton, Beattie and Wilson are better in that position. Possibly McInally as well.

Why not play Kelly Brown in the second row, so that the mobility of the Scottish pack can be further increased, as was the case back in 1987 when Scotland played TWO number 8's/back-row players in Derek White and Iain Paxton in the Second Row.

Agree with fES on this. KB at 6, Beattie or Wilson 8 and Harley 7 if (Barclay and Fusaro are still crocked).

gboycottnut wrote:Why not play Kelly Brown in the second row, so that the mobility of the Scottish pack can be further increased, as was the case back in 1987 when Scotland played TWO number 8's/back-row players in Derek White and Iain Paxton in the Second Row.

Indeed - changed days - Brown simply is not big enough for a modern second row. Jason White did move into the second row and also others have but its rarely successful

Riskysports wrote:Will a new start unleash the Eyebrows and let him make his own mark. I think so and think he should remain captain for the 6 nations and if still on form to be picked at 6 - for the rest of 2013 - give him the space to grow and I think we will be rewarded

That's what we need. I mean how many different captains have we had this past few years? Too bloody many. I think it would be sensible to have one captain only for a year at shortest. Brown is the man for it if you ask me. He is good role model, strong character who has had to over come many hurdles in his personal life to get where he is today. Give him the reigns for a year I say and se how we go. No more constant changing.

As for backrow I think brown should remain at 6. Denton and Beattie at 8 with grant and probably fusaro at 7 and Harley in there somewhere too.

1st pref - 6. Brown 7. Grant 8. Beattie/Denton
2nd pref - 6. Harley 7. Barclay 8. Macinally

We have some good options there if you ask me, unlike at 9 where there is a real weakness.

Kelly was first choice last year for captain but unfortunately had that break that put him out of the tournament. He's a brilliant 6... Will chop and chop all day but he's an average 8 and a poor 7. Keep him at 6 and let the other boys do their jobs. If injuries run like they seem to be at the minute then the likely FIT back rows for the England game are

Ryan Wilson [No.8] (0 Caps)
Rob Harley [Blind/Openside Flanker] (1 Cap)
Roddy Grant [Openside Flanker] (0 Caps)
Johnnie Beattie [No.8] (16 Caps)
David Denton [Blindside/No.8] (9 Caps)
Kelly Brown [Blindside/No.8] (52 Caps)

It's take your pick at openside and No.8 but if I was to pick it with my Glasgow bias, then 6. Brown 7. Harley 8. Wilson would be mine... But I'd happily have Johnnie Beattie at 8... and Denton on the Bench

Never thought we'd be struggling for an openside with Rennie, Fozzy and Barclay - but apparently that's where we are.

Agree with FES completely - Brown is absolutely not an openside and we shouldn't waste talent at 8 by putting him there. He should be a 6 or nothing and I believe is still our first choice.

Harley will do fine at 7 and is long overdue some proper international time although I really believe that you need a proper fetcher these days. I go back and forth over having Mr Roderick Grant in at 7 but ultimately chicken out - I think that Harley just works harder and is more consistent.

Finally, can't we really say in all conscience that the 8 should be Beattie or Wilson on current form? I know that Denton has been targeted but he's still been fairly anonymous. He won't be targeted any less in full internationals...

George Carlin wrote:Never thought we'd be struggling for an openside with Rennie, Fozzy and Barclay - but apparently that's where we are.

Agree with FES completely - Brown is absolutely not an openside and we shouldn't waste talent at 8 by putting him there. He should be a 6 or nothing and I believe is still our first choice.

Harley will do fine at 7 and is long overdue some proper international time although I really believe that you need a proper fetcher these days. I go back and forth over having Mr Roderick Grant in at 7 but ultimately chicken out - I think that Harley just works harder and is more consistent.

Finally, can't we really say in all conscience that the 8 should be Beattie or Wilson on current form? I know that Denton has been targeted but he's still been fairly anonymous. He won't be targeted any less in full internationals...

What's the deal with Roddy Grant? I've seen him play a few times and he's a very decent flanker. A couple of seasons ago I remember there was an article in Rugby World highlighting him as a future talent. Didn't he captain Edinburgh at one point? Is he ready to make the step up?

I'd say Grant is one of the better ones of a very poor Edinburgh squad right now, he's made an impact both times I've seen him come on from the bench recently, I think he's our best bet at causing the English ruck trouble.

I'm note sure Roddy Grant is of test standard. Yes he does well for Edinbrugh and tries hard but is never really a stand out player like Rennie is.

He wouldn't let anyone down and would do a job at 7, but the same could be applied to Harley and Brown - not that I want to see them there!

TJ wrote:Indeed - changed days - Brown simply is not big enough for a modern second row. Jason White did move into the second row and also others have but its rarely successful

Agree - very few players at international level can seamlessly move between lock and blindside. The few that spring to mind for me are AJ Venter, Abel Benazzi and Tim Rodber, the latter not quite in the same class as the two former suggestions.

Despite starting out at lock, all White's best work was a 6 in the prime of his career. Latterly he became slow and was moved to lock, but in a world of players like Shaw, Botha and Pelous, he never really looked comfortable at 5 at international level.

It's what makes players like Richie Gray, Joe Launchbury and Courtney Lawes so exciting, there have the dimensions and power of a true lock forward, and yet the mobility and workrate of blindside flankers, making for a very dynamic pack of forwards indeed.

I'm a big fan of Rob Harley - in fact, I've been consistently impressed by him over the past couple years, and I have yet to see him out of his depth in any situation. He didn't captain Glasgow at age 20 for nothing.

But...

The question isn't really whether he is an openside (He's talented enough to have a good go at most positions in the back 5), but rather whether he should play at openside.

I noticed that, against Treviso last week, he was standing off the first-up tackles in order to be available to steal ball when someone else makes the tackle. All well and good, he's doing his job as a 7, but Harley's tackling is among the most destructive of any in the Pro12, and I worry that playing him at 7 would deprive us of his skills in this regard.

This all goes back to what I've been saying for the last couple weeks. Simply, play the best player in each position. If Brown is the best 6, he should play 6. If Harley's better, pick Harley. If that means that our captain isn't good enough to start, then he shouldn't be captain. Tough times, but the back row is one area where we can afford to be picky.

My back row:
6. Harley 7.Grant 8. Denton

(Interestingly, ScottishRugbyBlog have picked Harley to play second row for Scotland - an inspired choice?)

Harley at lock is a frankly stupid suggestion, for all the very relevant reasons you state in your post. At lock we have Hamilton, Gray, Kellock and Swinson all fit. Why play Harley at lock when Swinson and Kellock are better at lock, fit and available?? How many games has Harley started and finished at lock this season?? Daft idea.

To be clear, I'm only suggesting Harley play 7 because everyone else half decent is injured. Grant is the only other option, but they went head to head recently and I thought Harley was better at 7 than Grant, despite it not being his preferred position. Grant has also recently been dropped for Basilia at 7 for Edinburgh - hardly a ringing endorsement of his form this season.

Gilchrist too

Thanks Neily and RDW

RDW_Scotland wrote:Gilchrist too

I agree that he's ahead of Harley as an option at lock, but I think you're opinion of Gilchrist's performances this season is slightly more favourable than mine. I've yet to see him put together than compelling 80 minutes that tells me he's ready for international rugby. He's a big lad, and I'm still waiting for that big carry, that brutal tackle or him piling several opposition players out of the ruck to make me think he's ready to punch his weight in the 6 Nations. He's a great prospect, and still very much in his career infancy, but he needs to learn a few tricks of the trade. Compare him to Cullen against Leinster. Cullen was a thorough nuisance to Edinburgh at the breakdown and a complete pest in the mauls and rucks. Gilchrist plays too nice, and needs to add some niggle to his game if he's to enforce for Scotland.

Agreed, he's ahead of Harley at 2nd row but behind Gray, Kellock and Hamilton. I'd put him on a par with McKenzie and Swinson just now.

He's another player who has had 2nd season syndrome, but to a much lesser extent. As you say he has been playing OK and hasn't done anything wrong, but you need more than that to step up.

I think Harley was at lock in the Scotland A defeat of England last year.

I'm becoming quite a fan of Swinson. On the small side (but perhaps not if you have both Brown and Harley on the flanks), but his tackling and workrate are superb, and he's a very consistent performer.

I would actually cap Swinson against England, sticking him next to Gray in the boiler room with Hamilton on the bench. If we're going to start without a proper 7, I think the second row needs to be as dynamic as possible, especially against England who now have real class at lock.

I know Glasgow fans will once again howl at me for ignoring Kellock, but if you take away his continuous shouting of "come on lads" (sorry, I meant his leadership qualities), and his knack of forming a pHD in his head of each and every ruck situation, I still don't see his tangible contribution to the game as more significant than Swinson's.

I'd be interested in comparing their carries and tackle counts, if anyone has too much time on their hands....

This is depressing me. Does anyone have any sense as to how long ANY of Rennie, Barclay and Fozzy are out for?

Harley will do fine against Robshaw but I feel a bit sick at the prospect of him lining up against Bonnaire or Tipuric.

I have lurked on this post long enough.

I would have Kelly Brown start at 6 and keep him as captain. He has made some poor choices as captain but it will have been a steep learning curve for him playing the teams we played in the autumn.

I certainly don't think he'll make the same mistakes he made against SA and Tonga by refusing the 3 points when they are offered.

He is (when played in his best position) IMO Scotland's best player. He is strong, tough and dependable. He also leads by example, always putting his body on the line and giving it 100%.

As for the 7 slot in the 6N with Rennie unlikely to recover I think the 7 slot has to go to either Harley or Grant. However Grant again will never let anyone down I just don't think he is good enough for international test rugby and if he is, he hasn't showed it this season.

Harley had a great tour in the summer, and he scored the try that saved us against Samoa. He has had some impressive cameos for the Weagies this year from 7 but I'm not sure I want such a formidable player in the tackling stakes fumbling about for the ball in rucks.

It's the same argument I use when the Irish play SOB at 7 instead of 8. When you have such a rampaging ball carrier you don't want them scrapping for the ball at the breakdown, you want him picking up from the base of the scrum and running full tilt into the the opposition getting momentum and breaking the gain line.

Same goes for Harley, he's a tackle monster. He specializes in puting people on their asses. I wouldn't play him at 7 since his real talent lies in his defencive abilities.

If I were to play both Brown and Harley I would rather see them play like Dusatoire and Bonnaire did for France with no "specialized" open or blind sides, just 2 flankers.

However needs must and all that, under the circumstances my backrow would be 6. Brown 7. Harley 8. Beattie with Denton on the bench.

I like it how no matter what the title of the topic is we pretty much discuss the same things!

Ever since the Tonga match we've pretty much covered all bases, then started all over again!

Robinson must go!!!

oh wait. We've done that one too eh!

I'd definitely keep Brown at 6 I think he's a brilliant player there. He's exceptional in defence and offers some link work between forwards/backs in attack. As for the captaincy he may not have had a great start but I can't see anyone else screaming out to take over with Ford out of form, Barclay injured and Kellock unlikely to start. Maybe Laidlaw but if that were the case instinctively I reckon Brown could do a better job.

I think Laidlaw will end up being Scotland captain, but not until his position is sorted out.

It is quite a lot on one persons shoulders to be playmaker/kicker/captain but I think he's got the mentality for it.

I agree that he has the right mentality as a player, but I'm not convinced he'll ever be secure enough in his position, whatever position that may be.

Brown is the right man for the next season or so I think. A consistent performer, respected highly in the squad, widely popular with the fans (in the same way that Ford and Kellock (or the notion of joint captains) were not) and fairly safe in his position, at least for the next season or two.

Could well be that when Harley replaces him at 6 (a when rather than an if in my view) he also takes over the captaincy a la Robshaw. Made of the right stuff and similarly a very consistent performer. That could be a pretty seamless transition.

Other potential options down the line for me are Ryan Grant, Richie Gray, Ross Rennie and Matt Scott. Sorry, and of course, Mark Bennett.

Agreed about Big Bob being future captain material, having captained your club aged 20 is a pretty good marker for leadership.

With regards to Swinson vs Kellock vs Hamilton, I would prefer Swinson but the nature of Hamilton adding a lot of power to the scrum, or Kellock being a natural lineout operator makes it a lot harder to pick him. Richie is a very mobile lock who puts himself about the park but he is best complemented by a bruiser in the same way as the SA team had Botha and Matfield. So for me it's Hamilton, but you can make an argument for Swinson on the bench to be honest! Bring him on for Gray or Hamilton after 65 minutes and watch him tear into England!

Looks like it will be the Eyebrow monster