v2 G.O.A.T Round 1 Group 5

First topic message reminder :

Another 81 votes in yesterday’s group which was battled out between footballing icon Diego Maradona, legendary Welsh scrum half Gareth Edwards, golfing hall of famer Bobby Jones and Champion Jockey Tony McCoy. At close of play Maradona had comfortably clinched the group with 51% of the vote followed by Edwards who joins him in the next round with 31% of the vote

Today’s group sees Motor Racing, Cricket and Athletics compete for your votes.

We have three participants championed today with articles written by forum members; please feel free to submit your own argument below for those not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Michael Johnson- Athletics- Champion by 88chris05

I was eight years old in 1996 and, as a result, the Atlanta Games of that year are the first Olympic Games I can remember properly - and for any sports fan, that's a serious footnote in your memory. It says much about the greatness of the man I'm writing about here that, whenever I think back to that summer of 1996 and the Olympics, the first thing to enter my head is never the Games themselves, and nor is it a collection of moments. Instead, it's just one name which crops up instantly - Michael Johnson.

It took some nerve - or, you might even say, some well-placed arrogance - to wear those golden running spikes, and it must also have taken a large helping of self-belief and stubbornness to ignore the plethora of coaches who had told him right throughout his college and junior career to abandon his unusual 'duck' style of running in favour of the traditional high knee lift, long strides and pumping arms which we usually associate with sprinting. But both the running spikes and that unique style had me hooked from 1996 onwards and I became determined to find out all I could about the man who came away with three gold medals on the track from those Games.

With the emergence of Usain Bolt in recent times, it's easy to forget that, just ten to fifteen years earlier, there was one man on the track who blew everyone's mind and redefined the parameters just as much as the brilliant Jamaican. In fact, I'd argue that Johnson, in many ways, redefined them even more than Bolt has.

For starters, his dominance of the 400m throughout the nineties must be right up there with the greatest spells of dominance in any one event in history. Before Johnson, whose incredible feats earned him the nickname 'Superman', no man had ever won the 400m title at back to back Olympics. Johnson did this at a canter, taking the gold medal in the one lap event at Atlanta in '96 and at Sydney four years later. He won four successive world titles at that same distance, too, from 1993 right up until 1999. His fifty-four consecutive 'finals' wins in the 400m is, of course, a record - so far ahead of his peers in that event is he, that comparisons are pretty pointless.

But there were more notable 'firsts' in Johnson's career. The 100m-200m double is, of course, a rare achievement, the sort which only the giants of sporting history (Owens, Lewis, Bolt etc) have managed. But do you know what's been an even rarer achievement in men's track and field? The 200m-400m double. Because once more, before this remarkable Texan came along, absolutely nobody had managed to win the two events together at the Olympics - or at any major championships, for that matter. Not content with making history once by doing so at the 1995 World Championships in Gothenburg, Johnson made it two 'doubles' in as many years at the following summer's Olympics. And which man has replicated this feat since? That's right - absolutely none of them.

Usain Bolt's double of the 100m-200m (or even his 'double double' of doing the 100m-200m act at two successive Olympics, a feat which he controversially shares with Carl Lewis) make him one of a few, but Johnson's achievements really do make him one of a kind.

I think it's key to remember, also, that the 400m takes on a very different dynamic to the shorter sprints. Unlike the 100m or the 200m, the 400m discipline takes a different type of training, a large amount of kidology and tactics. There is no element of just running flat out as fast as you can; pacing yourself, the concept of even-paced running, adapting to running two bends ect all make it a different ball game. Genuinely, I feel that Johnson's ability to adapt so perfectly to both events make him a serious contender to be considered the finest track athlete the world has ever seen.

Johnsons' gold medal tally in the 200m (two World Championships, one Olympics) doesn't read quite as staggeringly (but is still only surpassed by a certain Mr Bolt, mind you!) but, as I mentioned above, I genuinely think that Johnson expanded the ideas of what was possible in this event more than anyone else has thus far in his own way. In track and field, particularly in the sprints, you seldom see a world record which lasts more than three or four years, generally speaking. It's amazing what the human body can do when you're setting its every faculty towards a certain mark - for instance, Roger Bannister's four minute mile in 1954 was considered superhuman and, almost, a case of someone doing the impossible, and yet it lasted as a world record for a mere six weeks.

So then, let's keep in mind that Pietro Mennea's 200m world record of 19.72 seconds had stood for a whole seventeen years by 1996, remarkable in a sport which is pitted so often against the clock. At the Olympic trials that year, Johnson edged it out with a 19.66, a fantastic feat in itself, but what he did in the Olympics themselves in that event will stay with me forever. Even as an eight year old, I knew I was watching something remarkable. But it's only looking back that I can fully appreciate the magnitude of Johnson's gold medal winning performance.

Johnson won the gold in a staggering 19.32 seconds, a whole .34 of a second ahead of his own personal best (by an absolute mile the most that anyone has improved a short sprint record since the introduction of electronic timing in the sixties), and .36 ahead of second-placed Frankie Fredericks who, just weeks earlier, had beaten Johnson and was fancied by many to do so again (a shell-shocked Fredericks remarked after the race, "If I'd have known that Michael was going to run 19.32, I wouldn't have bothered showing up."). Ato Boldon, who took the bronze medal, went to Johnson after the race and bowed, later commenting that Johnson's race that night was "fifty years ahead of its time."

Now, I know what you're all thinking. Rather than fifty, the record 'only' lasted for twelve years (still a hell of a long time by track and field standards, of course) before Usain Bolt narrowly beat it with his wonderful 19.30 in the 2008 Olympics in Beijing. But as I said before, it's amazing what can be done by the human body when its sole focus is on a time which you have the luxury of shooting for. Basically, if someone can run a 19.32, you know that it's a real possibility and, in many ways, inevitable that someone can eventually go 19.30 or better, like Bolt has. Edging a world record out like that is the norm.

However, totally obliterating one like Johnson did most certainly isn't. With Mennea's 19.72 came the realisation that humans could and eventually would be running in the 19.6 bracket. With Johnson's 19.66 three months before Atlanta came the realisation that maybe, just maybe, we could see a high 19.5 time in our lifespan if we were lucky. Absolutely nobody, however, would have ever dared conjour up the the thought of a man eating up 200m of track in a low 19.3 time. It boggled the mind, tore up all logic and left a world-wide audience, including BBC commentator David Coleman, saying "this man surely isn't human!"

When Bolt broke the 200m world record, there were loud cheers in my house. However, when Johnson ran that 19.32 in Atlanta, there was nothing but a stunned silence, followed by a series of glances which seemd to be asking, 'Did I really just see that?'

And of course, Johnson's 400m world record still remains intact at 43.18 seconds, despite thirteen and a half years having passed since he finally set it at the 1999 World Championships in Seville. Again, it's worth noting that, in track and field, world records that can last a decade or more come at a premium. From the top of my head, I do believe that Michael Johnson is the only man to have set a world record lasting a decade or longer in two individual events since the introduction of electronic timing, and it says a hell of a lot about the man's accomplishments that you have to scroll a fair way down his CV to find a fact as impressive as that!

In all, Johnson stepped on to a podium to collect thirteen medals at either the Olympic Games or World Championships during his career - and ever single one of them was gold.

And as if his towering accomplishments weren't enough, he still manged to show what sportsmanship should be all about in 2008 when, after his relay team mate Antonio Pettigrew admitted under oath that he had used performance enhancing substances throughout the late nineties and early twenty-first century, Johnson voluntarily returned his Gold medal won with Pettigrew and two others in the 4x400m relay at the Sydney Olympics of 2000. In an age where far too many are adopting a relaxed attitude to doping in sport, Johnson's gesture, to me at least, added to his greatness even more, if that were at all possible.

It's a terrible shame that, a certain Mr Carl Lewis aside, track and field athletes have often struggled to receive their dues over in the States, because in Michael Johnson they really did have one of the finest sportsman to have graced the planet. To me, Johnson is everything a sporting great should be.

Juan Manuel Fangio- Motor Sports- Championed by Pete C

"Formula One's first great champion is still widely regarded as the greatest driver of them all. The 4th son of a poor Italian migrant family, the Argentine apprenticed as a mechanic in the late 1920s, but National Service and a couple of seasons playing professional football delayed his driving career until the mid-1930s, whereupon he quickly made a name for himself in his home country, winning a couple of national touring car titles before war shortages curtailed motorsport, even in neutral Argentina.

In the late 40s Fangio was one of a number of drivers sponsored to Europe by Juan Peron, the dictator was keen for his countrymen to make their mark. After impressing in races in 1949 the 39 year old Fangio lined up for Formula 1's inaugural season in 1950 in a '30s Alfa Romeo. 3 wins and 3 DNFs from the 6 races he entered was enough to place him 2nd in the championship behind his team mate Farina.

Fangio won the 1951 title before missing the 1952 season recovering from injuries suffered in a crash at Monza (in hindsight, missing a connecting flight in Paris and driving through the night to arrive 30 minutes before the race start wasn't the best preparation). Returning in 1953 he was second in the championship behind the Ferrari of his great rival Ascari. The 1954-57 seasons were all Fangio though as he won all 4 titles driving Maseratis, Mercedes and Ferraris before opting to retire at the top, aged 47, during the 1958 season. That year he also escaped unharmed after being kidnapped by Fidel Castro’s Cuban revolutionaries, who were aiming to force the cancellation of the (non-F1) race he was in Cuba for.

Fangio was regarded as without peer at keeping an ailing car running at speed (vital given the poor reliability of cars in the 50s), and for the precision of his driving and his endurance. In 1957 he produced what is regarded as the greatest drive in F1 history - after a botched pit stop left him over 30 seconds behind the leading Ferraris he stormed around the Nurburgring to catch and pass them for the win, breaking the lap record 9 times, in a car with a broken seat. His fastest lap was 11 seconds faster than anyone else on the track.

While he was generally able to get drives in the fastest cars (frequently changing teams through his career) there were a lot more drivers with the quickest cars in those days – factory teams generally ran 3- or 4-car teams, and also sold cars to privateers. He was racing against (and usually beating) Sir Stirling Moss and Alberto Ascari, both themselves widely regarded among the greatest of F1 drivers.

In summary:

* 5-time Formula 1 World Champion, 2-time runner up in just 7 and a bit seasons in F1. Only Michael Schumacher has more titles.
* Won 24 out of 51 Formula 1 races started, 46% - still a record, and astounding considering he suffered car breakdowns in another 10 races (11%). It is also widely believed that he slowed down to allow his team mate (and later his pall bearer) Stirling Moss to become the first British driver to win the British Grand Prix in 1955.
* Started 92% of his F1 races from the front row, and 56% from pole position
* Oldest winner of an F1 title (he was 40 when he won his first and 46 for his last)"

Brain Lara- Cricket- Championed by VTR

We can all look at statistics when we try to decide who is the greatest but sometimes seeing with our own eyes is the only way to judge. Bradman’s average, Tendulkar’s runs, Sober’s all-round feats are all there in the record books, but for sheer aesthetics there is the man with the high back-lift and flashing blade that made batting look so elegant you knew you were witnessing something special: that man is Brian Charles Lara.

Equally as devastating when facing fast, spin bowling or anything in between, Lara had the ability to dominate any attack in any part of the world. With a Test career spanning 1990-2006, playing at a time when opposition bowling attacks were almost universally strong (Wasim & Waqar, McGrath & Warne, Donald & Pollock), here was a batsmen who would have all in the ground enthralled as he played every shot in the book with such panache you would think he was playing a different game to everyone else. As an opposition supporter you’d somehow want him to stay in and get out at the same time; you knew the damage he could do, yet you would always want to watch more.

And it’s not as if the style was lacking in the way of substance. Far, far from it. In 1994 Lara destroyed a capable England attack to help himself to 375 runs and take the record for the highest individual Test score, overtaking Sober’s 365 which had stood for 36 years. This was merely the start of a purple patch of an incredible 7 hundreds in 8 first-class innings, culminating in a record that could, like The Don’s Test average stand forever: an innings of 501 not out against Durham when playing for Warwickshire in the County Championship. An entire team is generally elated with an innings total of 500+, but such was his hunger for runs Lara was able to achieve that many on his own.

When Matthew Hayden bullied a club-standard Zimbabwe attack for 380 runs a decade later to take away the record of highest individual Test score, the world wept that such a prestigious record could be achieved against such poor opposition. Thankfully Lara wasn’t finished, and with mutterings of a decline during an unusually subdued home series in 2004 he astonishingly took the record back with a chanceless innings of 400 not out. England were again on the receiving end, and despite having dominated the series for a 3-0 lead at that point were powerless to stop another innings of absolute genius. To put this into context, the record individual Test score has only changed hands 4 times since the Second World War. Lara stands apart in having gained the record twice.

Do you need any more convincing? An overall Test average of 52.88 is 17th on the all-time list, which is exceptional given the bowling attacks he faced, the lack of reliable batting partners in his later career and the challenges of captaining a team that was often in crisis for a large part of that. As the Windies decline set in from the mid to late 1990’s, Lara often seemed to be fighting a lone battle as a once-dominant team started to taste defeat on a regular basis. One of his most astonishing feats was somehow dragging the Windies to a 2-2 draw against the great Australia team in 1999. His innings of 153 not out in securing a thrilling one wicket victory in the Third Test is rated by Wisden as the second greatest Test innings of all time. Even more remarkable is that just days earlier he’d scored 213 in setting up a shock victory in the Second Test to level the series.

I haven’t even mentioned one-day cricket yet where Lara was one of the masters of his age, averaging over 40 in the shorter form and playing an integral part in the Windies shock run to the 1996 World Cup final. Naturally there was a defining innings in there: his masterful 111 off just 94 balls knocked the stuffing out of South Africa in the Quarter Final.

Some say when he retired in 2007 it was too early, the flourish was still there, he could still make a difference (Lara had averaged 66 in his final Test Series). But as with those flashing strokes, I’d say his timing was perfect. We were not to be subjected to any tarnishing of memories as a slow decline set in: we witnessed and will remember nothing but sheer beauty.

Zatopek has to have it for the exotic name no?

Oh yes and:

he was carried around the stadium upon the shoulders of Jamaica's victorious 4x400m relay team, having secured a long-distance treble that no one before or since has even come close to and with it an indelible place in sporting legend.

Fellow athletes are always the best judges of these things.

Can't stand Bolt's antics before the race.. and don't even get me started on The Beast!

Takes all the tension and excitement out of the build up.

100m final at the OG. Pure electricity and tension..

and then you get these clowns clowning around like it's a meet at the local park.

Johnson domnated his events. A fantastic talent, and a smart and erudite pundit. Not a fawning media lady of loose morals.



rotapicname

I called them media w.h.o.r.e.s, ok.

Stupid thing.

I find myself voting against a childhood hero for not the first time this week. Lara was always my favourite cricketer growing up yet I can't get past Johnson for the vote.

The Atlanta 96 were Johnson's Olympics

Johnson is through by a stretch by thelook of things. I thought it might have been closer between Zatopek and Lara for second to be honest.

Seems I came too late to this debate and anyway one vote wouldn't have helped him - but I'm sorry to see the great Zatopek missed out

Respect to the others - and it was a pretty loaded heat ! - but Zatopek was just God to a distance runner ... Diggers put up a fantastic post in his favour I see , and I am afraid I cannot imagine any athletic feat to compare with his 1952 treble. Meeting him and his wife after a race in Australia late last century was about the highlight of my modest running career There aren't any repechages for third placers are there ? No ..ah well , I shall have to take it out on whoever seeded these heats...

Glas a du wrote:Oh yes and:

he was carried around the stadium upon the shoulders of Jamaica's victorious 4x400m relay team, having secured a long-distance treble that no one before or since has even come close to and with it an indelible place in sporting legend.

Fellow athletes are always the best judges of these things.

Maybe but they are hardly going to carry aloft a cricketer or motor racing driver!

It was an interesting heat, for the others if Id had 2 votes I'd probably have voted for the two that went through but in this one Lara would have been 4th for me, or maybe tied 3rd. And that's not saying he wasn't a genius as he was.

guildfordbat wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Oh yes and:

he was carried around the stadium upon the shoulders of Jamaica's victorious 4x400m relay team, having secured a long-distance treble that no one before or since has even come close to and with it an indelible place in sporting legend.

Fellow athletes are always the best judges of these things.

Maybe but they are hardly going to carry aloft a cricketer or motor racing driver!

I hate it when people see fit to introduce logic