v2 G.O.A.T Round 1 Group 14

Wednesday group was dominated by the only Ice Hockey entrant Wayne Gretzky, he bagged 58% of the vote and sails into round 2 alongside crickets Garfield Sobers. Exiting the competition at the first stage are Kenenisa Bekele and Franz Beckenbauer who only managed a combined 11 votes.

Today we have just the one article written by forum members, please feel free to submit your own argument below for the ones not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Muhammad Ali- Boxing- Championed by 6oldenbhoy

When I offered to take part in this exercise I was originally asked to champion another fighter. I had my reservations as, in my opinion, this man’s aura was built more on the reputation he had acquired rather than his in ring achievement (though I must admit he did achieve a heck of a lot). I had no such qualms with the second option, the self proclaimed ‘Greatest’ Muhammad Ali. At this point I must admit that, although I have been a fight fan for many years, some of my earliest memories are of watching Michael Carruth and Wayne McCullough in the Barcelona Olympics and no Saturday night was complete with watching the boxing on ITV, I have never been a massive fan of Ali. I have seen almost all of his fights, viewed all the major documentaries and read various articles on the man but I've always had an almost take it or leave it attitude towards him. However, upon undertaking this activity, I have found an admiration and respect for the man who would be a worthy winner of this accolade. His career encompassed everything, monumental highs, catastrophic lows, triumph in the face of adversity, not to mention controversy all now tinged with tragedy. To fit all of this into an article would be an impossible task, such was the effect he had on Boxing and the World around him.

Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr was born on the 17/1/1942 to a Methodist father and Baptist mother. Few could have predicted what this child would go on and accomplish. The story begins when at the age of twelve young Cassius had his bicycle stolen. A thirst for revenge drove him to his local boxing gym where he should such aptitude for the sport that in a mere six years he was crowned Olympic Light Heavyweight Champion in Rome in 1960. Nino Benvenuti, the darling of his home crowd, won the Val Barker Trophy but many thought this accolade belonged to Clay.

Upon returning home he promptly turned profession under the tutelage of Angelo Dundee. He quickly developed into a boxer fleet of foot with a stinging jab,lightning reflexes and with more than adequate power. Nineteen straight wins led to a title shot against the fearsome Sonny Liston. Going into the contest Clay was a 7/1 underdog, but won the title when Liston retired on his stool at the end of the sixth round. The rematch wouldn’t last as long, Liston going down in the first. Some claimed Liston took a dive, others claim it was a legitimate punch. The fight did create one the most iconic sporting images of the twentieth century, where Ali (shortly after the Liston fight he had changed his name to Cassius X, then to Muhammad Ali) stands over his fallen opponent screaming at him to continue. Ali went on to defend the title a further eight times.

Muhammad was stripped of his title soon after his final defense against Zora Folley. His boxing license was also revoked and was sentenced to five years in jail. He appealed and remained on bail but was unable to box for three and a half years. Eventually given a license to fight in Atlanta, Ali won the first of two comeback fights before challenging Joe Frazier for the undisputed Heavyweight Championship, in a bout now known as “The Fight of the Century”. It was a thriller from start to finish, Ali starting the faster, but Frazier slowly walked him down. Frazier was ahead on all scorecards going into the final round when he unleashed a tremendous left hook that put Ali on the canvas. Ali bravely rose and heard the final bell but lost a unanimous decision. It was noted that Ali did not have the usual bounce in his step and one could argue showed the effects of three and a half years out.

Ali would not challenge for the World title for another three years. He won thirteen of his next fourteen fights, avenging the only loss he suffered in this period. A win over Joe Frazier set up a bout with Big George Foreman. This was to be Ali’s finest hour. Going into the bout, entitled the “Rumble in the Jungle”, nobody was giving Ali a chance. Ali had suffered losses to both Ken Norton and Joe Frazier whereas Foreman had knocked both of the out in them in the second round. Ali started brightly enough, but then adopted a tactic of lying on the ropes and absorbing punishment from Foreman. Foreman punched but Ali blocked them, shooting out counters of his own at every chance. This tactic, which Ali would later describe as “Rope-a-Dope” would have been seen to be suicide to many but becoming increasingly effective as Foreman threw haymaker after haymaker to down Ali, but Ali took them and answered back with his own. Entering the eighth Foreman was visibly exhausted. Ali pounced, trapping him on the ropes pummeling him with a barrage of blow that put Foreman down. He was unable to answer the count and a New Champion was crowned. Ali defended the title a further three times before facing Joe Frazier in the final installment of their classic trilogy.

The “Thrilla in Manila” took place, funnily enough, in the Filipino capital in front of crowd of 28,000. What followed was fourteen rounds of unsheathed brutality before Frazier was retired on his stool. Frazier’s eyes were so badly swollen that he claimed he couldn't see the punches coming, yet still protested when Eddie Futch withdrew him from the contest. Ali led from the front punishing Frazier with hooks, jabs and uppercuts wobbling Frazier frequently. Frazier gamely fought back every time and in the mid rounds unleashed one of his trademark left hooks right to Ali’s jaw. This punch looked like it could have felled a tree, yet Ali took it and stayed on his feet. By the end of the fight Frazier was taking continuous punishment. In the fourteenth, Ali landed punch after punch on a more and a more helpless Frazier. It was a mercy when the fight was stopped. Ali described the contest as the closest thing to dying he had experienced, whilst showing humility, describing Frazier as the toughest man alive. A further six defenses of the title followed before he lost the title to “Neon” Leon Spinks. He won the title back in the return before retiring. A brief comeback last two fights, both defeats, though Ali was a shell of his former self by this stage.

When people talk of athletes transcending sport, Ali is the one who first comes to mind. When you ask the common man or women on the street who they most associate with the sport of Boxing, Ali’s name will be said most frequently. As big a fan as I am of the Klitschkos, the average person on the street would struggle to name either of them as Heavyweight Champion of the world. When Ali was Champion, it was the exact opposite. He was one of the most recognized faces in the world, never mind sportsmen. This was the reason Sports Illustrated named him Sportsman of the Century, as did the BBC. The Heavyweight Championship of the World was once talked of as the greatest prize in sport and it was fighters like Muhammad Ali that made it so. This is a sport that has so little margin for error. Moving your head even fractionally may have devastating results. As former Heavyweight title challenger Tex Cobb once said "If you screw things up in tennis, it's 15-love. If you screw up in boxing, it's your ass." Ali excelled at this sport even when he had returned a faded fighter physically from his imposed exile. However like all greats at any sport he found other ways to win. His in ring intelligence set him apart from his contemporaries when he had lost the bounce in his step and his reflexes had dulled. It must not be forgotten that he displayed all these skills and attributes in what was the golden period of Heavyweight boxing. While he is remembered for his talents by some, others will recall him for his mouth. Ali was the ultimate showman. The press loved him and although he could be vulgar and downright disrespectful to his opponents at times, it could be said that this hyped fights and helped him to get that mental edge on his opponent. As I alluded to in my opening paragraph, I had my doubts when I was asked to champion another fighter due to his record, I find Ali to be the complete package. His record stands alone as far as Heavyweights go, while he had the showmanship and charisma that contributed to his everlasting legacy on sport. Long after we are all gone people will still talk of Ali. The Ali of today has been ravaged by Parkinsonism, an unwanted souvenir of a career spanning twenty one years inside the ring. Yet to see him light the Olympic flame at the Atlanta games was a one of the most iconic moments of the 20th Century. To this day he continues to battle his condition with just as much courage as he exhibited throughout his career in the ring. It takes a brave man to step through those ropes and Ali has shown both through his career and the aftermath, that he is right up there with the bravest of them all.

Richie McCaw - championed by Pete C (Kiwireddevil)
Richard Hugh McCaw has spent the last decade dominating every opponent on the rugby field, in that time winning the International Rugby Board’s Player of the Year award three times, and being the key player in the All Blacks’ 2011 Rugby World Cup win, as well as 8 Tri-Nations/Rugby Championship titles, 3 Northern Hemisphere Grand Slams, 4 Super Rugby titles (the toughest domestic rugby competition on the planet) and 3 runners-up medals with the Crusaders and 6 National Championships with Canterbury.

He was the first New Zealander to play 100 rugby tests – a result of his dominance of his position, as generally the Black jersey is the hardest one to win, and to retain. In his 116 international caps he has been on the winning side over 100 times, more than any other rugby player. Captain of the All Blacks since 2006 he is now the most capped captain NZ has ever had, and he’s simply the greatest player from the world’s greatest rugby nation.

As an open-side flanker he has been consistently the best player in his position throughout his career, brushing off challenges from the likes of George Smith, Marty Holla, Schalk Burger, Heinrich Brussow and David Pocock along the way, while he has also been versatile enough to play on the blindside flank and at number 8 at international level. His great skills are:
His fitness – developed by running 10km every 2nd day from the age of 12,
Pain threshold (medical testing found that after a match his nerve endings resembled those of a burns victim), and he played through the final 3 games of the 2011 Rugby World Cup with 3 broken bones in one foot
Anticipation – his reading of the game of rugby is superb meaning he gets to the right place before most other players,
Adaptability – he is 2nd to none at adjusting his style of play to suit the interpretations. The head of the IRB’s refereeing panel was overheard to say to a senior referee:
“The trouble with McCaw is he’s so fast we can’t see if he’s doing anything illegal.”
“Then how to we control him?”
“We can only penalise what we can see.”

Easy one for me today. Ali in first, second, third and fourth place. Pound for pound perhaps not the greatest boxer of all time, but far and away the greatest heavyweight and someone who transcended sport and through his talent and charisma. It is sad that we didn't get to see him during what may well have been his peak years but I still think the pre-ban Ali of 66/67 was the most talented heavyweight fighter there has been, whilst the post ban Ali has the greatest resume.

Ali knocking out Foreman is perhaps the most iconic moment in boxing, perhaps in all sport!

p.s. great write up!

so MJ does get a pick...

Up against the fav for this i feel(due to the boxing board) in Ali. My concern is how good was he- or is it just hyperbole because of the amzing charater he was

Mccaw- one of the best today.. Therefore one of the best ever! and he has won a WC!! many NZ greats havent

Senna is out for me. even though he did alot to promote f1 andmade alot of exiting races- problem is he killed a couple as well with his crazy win at all costs attitude!!

I think MJ will come last- but i dont think thats deserved.

I have to go for MJ, he was the leading force for the best ever england team(and actually maybe the best and most dominant rugby team ever- yep many wont agree- but the record between 2000-2003 for england was a 90% win rate)

Good write up 6oldenboy. I am nowhere near as big a fan of Ali as many a boxing fan and if I am honest I find the ongoing deification of the man slightly puke inducing. However for all that I know enough to know he is a truly extraordinary fighter and had enough of an impact outside the ring to be impossible to ignore. One of the major sticks we can, as boxing fans, hold against heavyweights is the frequent dearth of top tier talent they have to lock horns with through their careers. This is not the case with Ali, in Frazier, Foreman and Liston Ali had three guys who would feature in any sensible top twenty of the division. Ali’s record against those guys is 5-1, impressive enough but more so when one considers three of those wins came when Ali returned from exile and had undoubtedly lost a step or two of his speed. Add into that names such as Shavers, Patterson, Norton and if we ignore all the other stuff people will no doubt raise about Ali and we can see the man deserves to make it through on ledger alone.

Whilst others have argued reasonably that stuff outside the ring should perhaps be ignored in this process with a guy like Ali I am not sure such a thing is possible. As I said the ongoing deification of the man and portrayal of him as some sort of saint makes me puke a little as he was a very flawed individual capable of treating opponents in very cruel ways, both Frazier and Patterson carried many of Ali’s barbs with them for the rest of their lives. However was in his time quite simply the most famous man on the planet. Was as instantly recognisable in the wilds of the African desert as he was in Times Square. The thought of this process reaching the later stages is one that would render it ridiculous.

I didn't need to read the write-ups to know who to vote for. Ali, easy.

Johnson has no place being in a GOAT discussion, never mind the actual tournament, and I don't know who McCaw is. Leaving Senna, who may have been the Ronnie O'Sullivan of the F1 world but for all his talent, didn't achieve as much as others in his field did (Fangio, Schumacher, soon to be Vettel as well).

Azzy not being funny if you dont know who mccaw is then i cant really take your view on Johnson seriously!!

I went for Senna.

I know it could be viewed as a tactical vote, but I think Senna deserves his place up there with the greats of sport. He had everything to be a great - the rivalries, the titles, the talent and the sheer will to win.

To a degree his death perhaps allows him to be romanticised, but I think his aura is well earned too.

Ali is the obvious choice.

Johnson like Hasting's has no place in the 64, imo of course.

Senna made one great film and that was his lot.

Rugby isn't my thing but understand McCaw is a great player but Ali is a living legend.

What a horrible group on a personal level.

There can only one winner here, surely? Great write up 6oldenbhoy and only reinforces the Ali aura. As a person, he may not be the saint he is often portrayed as, but as a sportsman and a fighter, he is just sensational. Better than Sugar Ray Robinson? Probably not, but in this group he has to go through. Liston, Foreman and Frazier all on his win ledger along with Norton, Williams and a host of other top fighters. Incredible bravery, amazing skills, durability and longevity. There will probably never be another like him, especially the 1964 version. Just a supreme operator and one of the greatest.

I absolutely love the way McCaw plays the game and his win ratio is staggering, just staggering. The way he led his team though the last world cup on a broken foot will live with me for a long time. NZ were crippled by pressure towards the end but he dragged them through with skill and leadership that is rarely found. He may play in a top team, but he is still head and shoulders above any other openside in world rugby. Brilliant player and certainly the greatest of the professional era.

Johnson played in a great team and was a great leader, but wasn't even the best second row operating at his time. That title belonged to Mr Perfect, John Eales.

Ali sails through, for me.

comparing MJ to hastings is kind of crazy imo!!

Both expetional players however

Johnson acheived everything, which is surely needed(unless maybe your lumo!!)

mystiroakey wrote:Azzy not being funny if you dont know who mccaw is then i cant really take your view on Johnson seriously!!

Just googled him. I watch more table tennis on TV than I do rugby union, it's more boring to me than golf, badminton and paint drying combined. A true yawn fest.

Then again, I am a league boy myself

The one and only time I ever paid attention to union was when England won the WC, and for some reason I watched all the games. From my limited knowledge of union, Johnson was a great leader, a great player, but not even the best England player of all time, never mind the best in all of union, or even of all sport. As with Gavin Hastings.

And anyone who gives up Hayley Holt doesn't deserve a vote.

I'm not comparing them, just sayig neither should be on this list.

Rather like Paul Scholes and Cannavaro, if you get my analogy.

Ermm i dunno - he was the captain and possibly yes it could be argued the driving force for england the best player in his time.. Its a tough one to gauge who is the best in the side. But MJ is a clear shout.. And by far the most rated english player by most pros!

I do agree that he could never ever be the goat in this.

But i think he deserves his mention and have a feeling he is gonna get a raw deal. As i feel he allready has

mystiroakey wrote:so MJ does get a pick...

Up against the fav for this i feel(due to the boxing board) in Ali. My concern is how good was he- or is it just hyperbole because of the amzing charater he was

He was pretty damn good. True he was a massive character and a mouthy so and so but he could back it all up and more. Did things no HW had a right to do. He may not be the greatest boxer P4P but he is up there and based on his incredible ability, even more impressive CV and for the way he transcended the sport he deserves to be the favourite for this whole competition.

He's got one more vote than he should have, I think he's gotten the very opposite of a raw deal.

Stella wrote:I'm not comparing them, just sayig neither should be on this list.

Rather like Paul Scholes and Cannavaro, if you get my analogy.

yep i suppose..

but we could say the same about many of our picks.. I could in all honesty say the same about Senna- not going to because of his legacy- but in terms of what he actually acheived- (and how he acheived some of it-big question marks!!) , how could he be considered the ultimate goat

As they used to say in horse-racing circles many years ago, it's Eclipse first and the rest nowhere today.

Ali was not perfect, let's make no bones about it. Not as a man, at least. As a heavyweight boxer, however, he is in a league of his own. No big man had ever moved like Ali, shown such blinding hand speed or the ability to score five or six times in a couple of seconds while taking nothing in return. Unlikely as it seems, we never actually got to see him at his best, either - it's one of sport's biggest losses that we were denied the opportunity to watch Ali from the spring of 67 to the summer of 70. In his second incarnation, the sheer virtuosity had gone. Instead, we were treated to exhibitions of courage, nerve and spirit that are part of the world's sporting folklore. In my opinion a top 5 pound for pound boxer, Ali cannot be approached by anyone in his weight division.

Outside the ring, Ali could be spiteful and he could be immature. His treatment of Joe Frazier and other opponents such as Patterson and Terrell was unforgivable. Nevertheless, in the context of the era in which he was fighting, he had his reasons. How many other sportsmen do we know with courage enough to put their careers, even their liberty, on the line for their beliefs? He had charm in abundance too when he chose to employ it. Here in the UK, a country that Ali loved, we were fortunate enough to see and feel it more than most. His bragadoccio, often merely a device for selling fights, was usually offered with tongue firmly in cheek - it has spawned a legion of imitators, none with Ali's flair and warmth.

Other sportsmen have had the ear of statesmen or been heroes beyond their own lands. Beside Ali, they look like peasants at the parish pump. Presidents and monarchs made time to see this man, aware that he embodied his global generation as no other sportsman ever has. To me, Ali is one of the supreme sportsmen of all time - even more relevantly, he is also by far the most important man of sport who has ever lived.

Great as McCaw, Johnson and Senna have been in their fields, they cannot begin to approach Ali. That's no disgrace - no-one else can either. Ali, you may not be surprised to learn, would always be my choice for the winner of this entire exercise.

Yeah, Johnson not being a 64er is maybe harsh but I was surprised to see his name.

Azzy Mahmood wrote:He's got one more vote than he should have, I think he's gotten the very opposite of a raw deal.

I am hoping mine isnt the only vote..

Got to be honest its a clear contest this one- ALi and senns will be threw

mystiroakey wrote: And by far the most rated english player by most pros!

Richard Hill would take that accolade, mysti. You may get a few that call it for Johnson but certainly not "by far".

Most of the ex-pros I have listened too say Hill was the greatest player of that English era, and he is certainly the greatest English player I have ever seen. His return from injury was the real driving force behind England's 2003 triumph.

It is all irrelevant anyway as no-one on this list comes close to Ali.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

mystiroakey wrote: And by far the most rated english player by most pros!

Richard Hill would take that accolade, mysti. You may get a few that call it for Johnson but certainly not "by far".

Most of the ex-pros I have listened too say Hill was the greatest player of that English era, and he is certainly the greatest English player I have ever seen. His return from injury was the real driving force behind England's 2003 triumph.

It is all irrelevant anyway as no-one on this list comes close to Ali.

well obviously many could also argue JW as well...

Some fair points from rowley, we know you'd rather we'd save our vomit inducing platitudes for charley burley (i've name dropped him twice on these threads now... the legend can only grow). The captain has already defended him better than i can. i 'd just add that with any iconic figure you get a cycle of deification, vilification, deification. Ali has had plenty of both, i cant knock him too much for what was essentially trash talking with frazier. It wasnt nice but would have been pretty quickly forgotten had Frazier let us.

He is the one where the distinction between sporting achievements and the whole package will be hardest to separate... And where people sit on that may well decide the outcome in the latter stages of this exercise.

Not much debate that he's the only choice from this group though in my view

The hardest sport, the hardest route to the top and all past his best. How can anyone compare?

Ali, with flying colours.

Quite simply the most famous sportsman there has ever been, and likely ever will be - the finest of the heavyweights in the toughest of eras. Extraordinary to watch, particularly in his first stint where he possessed the speed, movement and reflexes of a middleweight.

He transcended boxing among other things, and everyone on this planet knew who the heavyweight champion of the world was.

Fists mate can you make this thread global.. I think they forgot again.

captain carrantuohil wrote:As they used to say in horse-racing circles many years ago, it's Eclipse first and the rest nowhere today.

Ali was not perfect, let's make no bones about it. Not as a man, at least. As a heavyweight boxer, however, he is in a league of his own. No big man had ever moved like Ali, shown such blinding hand speed or the ability to score five or six times in a couple of seconds while taking nothing in return. Unlikely as it seems, we never actually got to see him at his best, either - it's one of sport's biggest losses that we were denied the opportunity to watch Ali from the spring of 67 to the summer of 70. In his second incarnation, the sheer virtuosity had gone. Instead, we were treated to exhibitions of courage, nerve and spirit that are part of the world's sporting folklore. In my opinion a top 5 pound for pound boxer, Ali cannot be approached by anyone in his weight division.

Outside the ring, Ali could be spiteful and he could be immature. His treatment of Joe Frazier and other opponents such as Patterson and Terrell was unforgivable. Nevertheless, in the context of the era in which he was fighting, he had his reasons. How many other sportsmen do we know with courage enough to put their careers, even their liberty, on the line for their beliefs? He had charm in abundance too when he chose to employ it. Here in the UK, a country that Ali loved, we were fortunate enough to see and feel it more than most. His bragadoccio, often merely a device for selling fights, was usually offered with tongue firmly in cheek - it has spawned a legion of imitators, none with Ali's flair and warmth.

Other sportsmen have had the ear of statesmen or been heroes beyond their own lands. Beside Ali, they look like peasants at the parish pump. Presidents and monarchs made time to see this man, aware that he embodied his global generation as no other sportsman ever has. To me, Ali is one of the supreme sportsmen of all time - even more relevantly, he is also by far the most important man of sport who has ever lived.

Great as McCaw, Johnson and Senna have been in their fields, they cannot begin to approach Ali. That's no disgrace - no-one else can either. Ali, you may not be surprised to learn, would always be my choice for the winner of this entire exercise.

Great post, captain.

I have Ali and Don Bradman leagues ahead of the chasing pack. It must surely be a decision between the two.

ShahenshahG wrote:Fists mate can you make this thread global.. I think they forgot again.

Done.

ShahenshahG wrote:Fists mate can you make this thread global.. I think they forgot again.

Done.

I've added a writeup on McCaw too

milkyboy wrote:Some fair points from rowley, we know you'd rather we'd save our vomit inducing platitudes for charley burley (i've name dropped him twice on these threads now... the legend can only grow). The captain has already defended him better than i can. i 'd just add that with any iconic figure you get a cycle of deification, vilification, deification. Ali has had plenty of both, i cant knock him too much for what was essentially trash talking with frazier. It wasnt nice but would have been pretty quickly forgotten had Frazier let us.

I’m just a bit down on him at the minute milky, have just finished reading a book about Floyd Patterson and on the back of that I think it is too easy and absolves Ali a little easy to say the victims of his barbs should have just moved on or got over themselves. Patterson was labeled an Uncle Tom for the rest of his life and indeed still is in some quarters. This is a pretty serious tag for a black fighter to carry about and in Patterson’s case is also totally unfair and inaccurate. Whilst he is certainly not solely to blame for Floyd being labeled as such Ali is far from blameless in the affair. However for all that makes not a jot of difference to his ability as a fighter and he still has plenty of good in his ledger but think the airbrushing of his faults and general deification gives a portrait of the man that is not wholly accurate.

Do appreciate the mentions for Burley though, am looking forward to arguing his case when he inevitably comes up for consideration in this process.

About bloody time, a round without a flannel wearing, cable knit donning, cucumber sandwich, bat leaner in it.

Shame that there are two rugby players in the same group, but let's just get one thing clear - they are both far more worthy of consideration in this discussion than Gavin Hastings.

Johnson was an absolute monster of a 2nd row forward - everything the modern day powerhouse lock should be, and was a fantastic captain and leader. Lions captain twice and England's world cup winning captain, he was very much the heart and soul of the team. One quote from Richard Hill (no mean player himself) sums Jonno up - 'if he asked you to run through a brick wall you'd do it. But you'd find there was already a Jonno shaped hole in it when you got there.

McCaw has for most of the last decade been the best openside flanker. This is one of the key positions, as in attack his role is to provide the link between the forwards and backs, while in defence it is simply to be a bloody nuisance at the breakdown. McCaw is without equal in both roles, playing for one of the finest All Blacks sides in history, and one which (finally) managed to win the RWC.

Both guys would be seriously considered in any discussion for a greatest XV ever, especially given that by any objective measure the standards of rugby have leapt ahead with the change to full time professionalism.

And then you have Senna - probably the closest thing modern F1 has to a mythical figure. An incredible talent, who could make a car dance like no other driver and who was easily the best wet weather driver of his time (coming close to beating Prost in the rain of the 1984 Monaco Grand Prix while driving a Toleman). Without doubt the fastest driver of the 80s and early 90s, but his return of 3 world championships and 41 race wins is far over-shadowed by Michael Schumacher and falls short also of his less talented but more consistent contemporary Alain Prost. Many fans rate Senna the greatest, but this is clearly a subjective opinion.

good points dummy!!

Not sure MJ was even the best forward at Leicester, Id probably go for Neil Back personally. Great leader but questionable place in the top 64 for me.
Far more deserving for McCaw but again in the rugby world its labourers and artisans and my picks for the greats would be the likes of Carter who have more skills than grunt.
Senna was clearly brilliant and held in awe by most of his peers even...but we are back to the old pilot issue.
Ali...well I love boxing but by and large heavyweight boxing is pretty dire, big old plodding lumps. Of course Ali looked like a middleweight when he fought (sometimes) ....but then why not just watch a lot more middleweight and welter weight fights where by and large they all have a lot more skill and speed.
But all things being equal Ali gets my vote.

A great write up of Ali. I only started watching him late in his career (I'm not that old!) but even then he still had the aura about him, as he does to this day.
Sometimes you have to live through the era to fully understand the zeitgeist, the effect someone can have on world at the time. It's probably the same for, say, Elvis Presley, or Rudoph Valentino - you probably had to be there to get the full effect.
But even now, even in his current condition, one of the biggest moments of the Olympic ceremony was Ali being there. I can't say if he's the best boxer ever, but he is the greatest sportsman of all-time, no question, for me.

Rowley wrote:

milkyboy wrote:Some fair points from rowley, we know you'd rather we'd save our vomit inducing platitudes for charley burley (i've name dropped him twice on these threads now... the legend can only grow). The captain has already defended him better than i can. i 'd just add that with any iconic figure you get a cycle of deification, vilification, deification. Ali has had plenty of both, i cant knock him too much for what was essentially trash talking with frazier. It wasnt nice but would have been pretty quickly forgotten had Frazier let us.

I’m just a bit down on him at the minute milky, have just finished reading a book about Floyd Patterson and on the back of that I think it is too easy and absolves Ali a little easy to say the victims of his barbs should have just moved on or got over themselves. Patterson was labeled an Uncle Tom for the rest of his life and indeed still is in some quarters. This is a pretty serious tag for a black fighter to carry about and in Patterson’s case is also totally unfair and inaccurate. Whilst he is certainly not solely to blame for Floyd being labeled as such Ali is far from blameless in the affair. However for all that makes not a jot of difference to his ability as a fighter and he still has plenty of good in his ledger but think the airbrushing of his faults and general deification gives a portrait of the man that is not wholly accurate.

Do appreciate the mentions for Burley though, am looking forward to arguing his case when he inevitably comes up for consideration in this process.

About that Rowley - the only reason that stuck wasn't Ali saying it - it stuck because scum like sinatra and co sidled up next to him so photo after photo of these bar stewards desperate to destroy Ali gave credence to what otherwise would have been laughed of. Also - Patterson himself was responsible for the religious war Love sacks.

Like I said Shah, Ali was not solely responsible but nor was he blameless, he used the term to refer to Patterson on more than one occasion. It was deliberately hurtful and patently untrue, as such he had no place saying it, particularly as he knew damned well how hurtful an accusation it is to throw at any black man.

As far as the two rugby icons are concerned, Johnson, as others have said, has a fair bit of competition for the best ever in his own position, even during his own playing career. Eales, Meads, du Preez, McBride, Matfield....all would have their supporters, and rightly so. Additionally, and I'm prepared to be accused of heresy here, McCaw wouldn't get into my all-time All Black team, not as a 7 at any rate. That berth is firmly reserved for the even greater Michael Jones, who only suffers by comparison in the longevity stakes. My understanding is that there are plenty of New Zealanders who might also take this view.

following from my above post, don't get me wrong - out of this quartet, Ali gets my vote. The guy has a legendary status that not even Senna's martyrdom can match.

The interesting part will be later on, when the flaws in Ali the sportsman are going to take on more weight - already we have the boxing guys making the point that he probably wasn't the best pound-for-pound fighter, so what happens when he's paired against Sugar Ray Robinson. How much weight do we give to Ali the boxer and how much to Ali the legend?

Ali isn't the greatest sportsman ever, he is the probably the most iconic sportsman who lived which is very different.
And of course we are viewing this from a very western perspective, its a bit like the news where if have an American or European disaster where 10 people die its all over the papers for days...then you find a footnote that 47000 people died in an earthquake in China.
In short, I think Ali's impact and legacy are a tad overplayed.

captain carrantuohil wrote:As far as the two rugby icons are concerned, Johnson, as others have said, has a fair bit of competition for the best ever in his own position, even during his own playing career. Eales, Meades, du Preez, McBride, Matfield....all would have their supporters, and rightly so. Additionally, and I'm prepared to be accused of heresy here, McCaw wouldn't get into my all-time All Black team, not as a 7 at any rate. That berth is firmly reserved for the even greater Michael Jones, who only suffers by comparison in the longevity stakes. My understanding is that there are plenty of New Zealanders who might also take this view.

You may have a point on Jones Captain - though in my all-time World XV I'd play Jones on the blindside. McCaw's leadership qualities as well asplaying ability give him the edge (in the same way that I'd pick Shane Warne over Murali due to Warne's superior batting and fielding)

For me Senna's untimely death puts him behind Schumacher and Fangio in F1 terms - though I grant that had he lived longer that might have changed. OTOH, had Jim Clarke lived longer too ...

Senna's the greatest driver of all time. Mccaw and Johnson are not G.O.A.Ts of Rugby. Ali is not the greatest boxer of all time so I voted Senna

Your point about the western perspective is precisely why Ali is so far ahead of the other great 63 (alright, 62+Gavin) in this field, diggers. Ali's status as a boxer and an icon was unquestioned from Jakarta to Kinshasa, from Kuala Lumpur to Dublin. He fought in all those cities and many other besides where global sport had never even left a trace. More to the point, the citizens and leaders of the countries where he fought all clamoured to see him, to meet him and to bathe in his reflected glory and his charisma.

Ali was, above all, the champion of the dispossessed, not many of whom, relatively speaking, were to be found in the western world. Your criticism about our occidental perspective could rightly be applied to any other sportsman, but not to Ali, whose impact was entirely global.

Rowley wrote:Like I said Shah, Ali was not solely responsible but nor was he blameless, he used the term to refer to Patterson on more than one occasion. It was deliberately hurtful and patently untrue, as such he had no place saying it, particularly as he knew damned well how hurtful an accusation it is to throw at any black man.

I dunno how much it did though Rowley - how much of an insult was it to a man who'd been labelled the black white hope.

Hill would be my greatest 6, Pete, although I'm prepared to concede an English bias there! As for the question of leadership, my all-time XV to play Mars would be so stuffed with it all over the field that McCaw's undisputed qualities in that area would not be so badly missed.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Your point about the western perspective is precisely why Ali is so far ahead of the other great 63 (alright, 62+Gavin) in this field, diggers. Ali's status as a boxer and an icon was unquestioned from Jakarta to Kinshasa, from Kuala Lumpur to Dublin. He fought in all those cities and many other besides where global sport had never even left a trace. More to the point, the citizens and leaders of the countries where he fought all clamoured to see him, to meet him and to bathe in his reflected glory and his charisma.

Ali was, above all, the champion of the dispossessed, not many of whom, relatively speaking, were to be found in the western world. Your criticism about our occidental perspective could rightly be applied to any other sportsman, but not to Ali, whose impact was entirely global.

Fair enough but Im not sure how long that legacy held for, is he that iconic in India and china and Russia ? Besides Bolt is probably the most famous man on the planet at the moment so its not unique for a sportsman.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Hill would be my greatest 6, Pete, although I'm prepared to concede an English bias there! As for the question of leadership, my all-time XV to play Mars would be so stuffed with it all over the field that McCaw's undisputed qualities in that area would not be so badly missed.

Fair call on Hill. He'd be in my 23 to play Mars, if not the starting XV.

Bolt, Diggers? Surely not the most famous man on the planet? More famous than Obama, for example? Ali was more famous around the world than Nixon or any other global leader of his time. Brezhnev met him to inquire what he could do to help Ali's peace foundation. In China, Mao regarded him as the one American sportsman who lent weight to his crazed brand of Marxism. Everyone knew Ali, almost without exception. I don't honestly believe that the same can be said of Bolt or any other sportsman, even in these days of global, mass, immediate communication.

If you want to reward style and charisma Ali' is probably your choice. I am of the idea that Tyson would have crashed him to the carpet in less than 4 rounds. But it is the guy before the years in jail that I am talking about.

Senna and Ali' legends, yes, none of them a true goat.

The only man more famous than Ali is Mr Bean.