Do SA need 7 specialist batsmen V NZ?

During the lunch interval of today's play between SA and NZ, Jeremy Coney the former NZ captain made an interesting point/question about whether SA really need to play 7 specialist batsmen V NZ, as they could have used that number 7 slot to experiment by say trying someone like a Quinton de Kock or by playing a young spin bowler who could be given a chance to gain early experience of test cricket without having to be exposed against a team of higher quality and standard such as Australia, England or Pakistan.

I don't think it is a question of need to be honest, I think it is more a case of finding depth in batting.

If you go back a year, we had Alviro Petersen struggling to establish himself, Rudolph was struggling and JP Duminy weren't in great form.

So we really only had Smith, Amla, Kallis and de Villiers established batsmen.

Now we had Faf du Plessis showing his quality, Alviro has come to terms with opening and Duminy being injured has still not really been at the level of the established four.

Considering that in three years (at the most) Kallis will retire, we need to replace him, so having faf du Plessis going well, it does help to try out Elgar a few times to see if he can cut it.

You really want 3 opening batsmen with experience (Smith, Alviro, Elgar) and then 5 middle order batsmen experienced (Amla, Kallis, de Villiers, Faf, Duminy), then you know you have depth, especially when retirements loom.

If you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail in a few years.

They don't need 7 batsmen, but they also don't need 6 bowlers (including Kallis).

You could make an argument for a 'keeper, but unless they are a better batsman than Elgar and as good a 'keeper as AB (who is perfectly good enough) that is hard to justify, at least whilst AB believes 'keeping has no effect on his form.

Shelsey93 wrote:They don't need 7 batsmen, but they also don't need 6 bowlers (including Kallis).

You could make an argument for a 'keeper, but unless they are a better batsman than Elgar and as good a 'keeper as AB (who is perfectly good enough) that is hard to justify, at least whilst AB believes 'keeping has no effect on his form.

Well in Quinton de Kock SA do have a exciting wicketkeeper for the future, and it would have been a good time in which de Kock makes test debut as SA's current opponents in this test aren't anything to write home about and SA also have a lot of experienced players in their current team with which de Kock can get advice and help from.

I made the point about flooding a keeper prior to the series. But then equally is useful for S.A. to see if abd can cope with batting long innings and keeping.
In terms of bowlers I'm not sure what they would learn about their test class against this shower

SA doesn't even need 4 bowlers. The only change could have been to bring in a new wicketkeeper batsman. SA seem to think Quinton de Kock is the man in the long run. But I don't think he's quite ready for International cricket. Failure at this young age when he's not quite ready might result in more harm than good.
And as biltong says, SA need to work on their batting depth. The depth in batting came handy in England and Australia. If AB is to keep in the medium run at least till de Kock is ready, then they better give him more chances. So any which way you look at it, a 7th batsman, or a propper all-rounder if available could be the go.
Perhaps they could have tried Chris Morris in one of the matches, but he's anyways injured and unavailable. So fair enough.

It might be best to wait and see how de Kock develops a bit.

Putting him in as a 'keeper now might effect his batting (I don't know how good his 'keeping is, but if he feels he needs to work on it, it will take time and mental energy away from his batting). In addition, SA's attack will give you chances, so you'll be shown up if you can't take them.

In a couple of years time they'll be better placed (through ODIs, where there is a case for giving him the gloves, getting AB back at backward-point and meaning he doesn't have to bat, captain and keep) to judge whether he's going to be a world class batsman or not. If he is, then you find yourself back where you started with AB in terms of not wanting to him to keep because of batting.

I think it is important that Quinton first succeed in the ODI's.

It will give him the necessary exposure whilst he builds experience and gets used to international pressure.

There is enough time to bring him in in 18 months or so, his first class batting average is building, but he sin't converting his 50's.

His lsat six innings in 4 day cricket has been 85, 1, 36, 65, 26, 55.

He has the potential there is no doubt about it, his strike rate in 4 day cricket is high, it runs over 5 runs to the over, he needs some maturity, I think his shot selection needs some work, he neds to play each ball on its merit.

His keeping is adequate, but experience and maturity is needed.

Think Quinton keeping in ODIs makes a lot of sense. Gives him the necessary exposure to international cricket and ensures that AB doesn't have to keep in all formats. If AB is keeping only in Tests, then thats not a problem IMO as he's not yet the Test captain. So giving Quinton the gloves in limited overs allows them to keep AB away from keeping duties in formats where he is the skipper and also allows them to adjudge Quinton's readiness for international cricket. If he does well, then he can keep in Tests too.

In Tests, I agree with the biltong that they can use this as an oppurtunity to find Kallis' replacement. Nice to see Elgar scoring runs. When Duminy is back , SA will have a pretty good pool to chose from.

Two SA upcoming players who excite me are Quinton de Kock and Chris Morris. de Lange is of course there, I think he'll be the real backup deal to Steyn Morkel and Philander when he's fit. But like some of the young Australian seamers, he's also going through a lot of growing pains at the moment.
Quinton de Kock is considered a quality batsman and a decent wicketkeeper. He can open or he can bat down the order. He looked good in the CLT20. His first class at this young age looks very promissing.
But as Tsolekile is the regular keeper of his fc side, his chances with the gloves have been limited. I hope Quinton is given more opportunities behind the stumps. Perhaps trying him out in limited overs may not be a bad idea at all.

De Lock actually kept this weekend, if I remember corecctly he took four catches in the first innings and 4 in the second

Quinton de Kock is a fantastic young batsman.

Very attacking. But his keeping isn't better than ABDV just yet.

Proteas management are playing it right by blooding him in T20s and ODIs ATM.

After the great man Kallia goes, de Kock will certainly take the gloves from ABDV.

Gerry SA wrote:Quinton de Kock is a fantastic young batsman.

Very attacking. But his keeping isn't better than ABDV just yet.

Proteas management are playing it right by blooding him in T20s and ODIs ATM.

After the great man Kallia goes, de Kock will certainly take the gloves from ABDV.

But why not play De Kock just now in this test series V NZ where the opposition bowlers aren't anything threatening and also more importantly there are a adundance of experienced players in the SA team such as Smith, Amla and also Kallis to help guide and look after De Kock through his first test match.

gboycottnut wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:Quinton de Kock is a fantastic young batsman.

Very attacking. But his keeping isn't better than ABDV just yet.

Proteas management are playing it right by blooding him in T20s and ODIs ATM.

After the great man Kallia goes, de Kock will certainly take the gloves from ABDV.

But why not play De Kock just now in this test series V NZ where the opposition bowlers aren't anything threatening and also more importantly there are a adundance of experienced players in the SA team such as Smith, Amla and also Kallis to help guide and look after De Kock through his first test match.

It doesn't matter if the NZ team is weak, de Kock needs to be good enough to keep at Test level.

At present he's not. Within 12-18 months he'll be in the side no doubts.

De Kock needs to play as a batsman, I admittedly havent spoken to him, but if you average 60 with the bat, I cant believe they could make him keep. Elgar is on borrowed time, with Duminy, De Kock, and even Puttick all lining up.

De Kock has only played 17 FC matches so far. South Africa are not in a desperate situation so that they have to call him up and force him to learn too much on the job. AB is doing a fair job with the gloves, let Quinton gain a bit more first experience and understand his own game a bit more, he should be one for the future and that too not too distant.

Ja, but I think you pick your best team, and de Kock isnt a nearly good enough keeper to play Test. Interestingly, Andrew Hudson named de Kock as one of the possible successors for Kallis at 4.

kingraf wrote:Elgar is on borrowed time,

he did just get an unbeaten century, albeit against a joke side. It probably helps his cause that he offers a left arm spin option even if its not been needed yet there may come a time in Asia when they could use some support from slow bowlers to avoid having to pick two specialists in the side who arent up to test standard

we did very well in India in 2008 & 2010 (aggregate 2-2 in 5 tests). Steyn has 57 Wickets at 21 in the sub-continent. and Duminy is a better part-timer than him in any case. Now, i know Elgar has a century, and no Test ton is a gimme, but I dont rate a ton coming in at 340/5 highly, not least against opposition lacking in penetration. When I stated that he is on borrowed time, It was meant literally- he only has 3 tests vs Pak, by the next series, JP should be fit, while de Kock can only be `Coming of age` for so long. de Kock has a first class ave of 60, Duminy 50. Elgar? 40.

kingraf, you need to give Elgar a break. Look how long it took Kallis to settle into test cricket.

I am giving him a break- I am reserving judgement until the end of the Pakistan series. Kallis is a bit of an outlier though, Biltong. Using him as an example is a bit like using Warne as a reason to give all struggling leggies a go.

I think now is the perfect time to give guys like Elgar, Miller, Morris, Kleinveldt, Viljoen etc a go, but they deserve a proper chance, Kirsten said he wanted a squad, the only way you build a squad is to give guys enough time to settle, not everyone is going to settle like Faf and Vernon though.

To be honest, with SA only playing 6-10 Tests a year, I think there is an accent on the boys needing to settle in really quickly. By the end of Pakistan, Elgar would have played 6 Test, not a lot, but in the current Protea climate, its a lifetime. Rudolph got dropped about 6 tests after his last ton. Ashwell Prince was dropped having scored a 50 the previous game.

True, but then Rudolph and Prince has been around for a while.

My point was more based on the fact that this team has high standards. Elgar may in fact come good quickly, but if Duminy does take his place, there is no shame in going back to Franchise- Steyns been dropped before, as has Smith, Amla, Morkel, Philander. It seems to be the SA blueprint. Expose player to int. cricket, then take him back down, with him fully in the knowledge of what he needs to do.

kingraf wrote:My point was more based on the fact that this team has high standards. Elgar may in fact come good quickly, but if Duminy does take his place, there is no shame in going back to Franchise- Steyns been dropped before, as has Smith, Amla, Morkel, Philander. It seems to be the SA blueprint. Expose player to int. cricket, then take him back down, with him fully in the knowledge of what he needs to do.

Agree with that.

I'm a big de Kock fan, but I wonder if everyone quoting his FC stats knows how much of those stats are franchise level and how much amateur?

Time is on his side, but he's still got a lot to learn at FC level before being thrust into the test team.

And to the original post, no. SA don't even need 7 players against NZ, let alone bats.

JP Duminy will be out for a long time yet.

Dean Elgar isn't under threat just yet. He will be tested by the Pakistani fast bowlers though. If he has a good series against them, then JP won't be getting back into the side.

Kirsten and Biff are fair people, they'll give Elgar a fair chance.

dazmcspaz wrote:I'm a big de Kock fan, but I wonder if everyone quoting his FC stats knows how much of those stats are franchise level and how much amateur?

Time is on his side, but he's still got a lot to learn at FC level before being thrust into the test team.

And to the original post, no. SA don't even need 7 players against NZ, let alone bats.

For the Lions, de Kock averages 44 with 1 hundred after 7 matches.

For Gauteng, de Kock averages 75 with 3 hundreds after 10 matches.

As expected the franchise average is lower, but 44 isn't to shabby.

Gerry SA wrote:As expected the franchise average is lower, but 44 isn't to shabby.

44 is ok for a 19/20 year old starting out. Actually, it's bloody brilliant for a 19/20 year old starting out.

He's got promise, he's bloody marvelous to watch when he's on song, and I hope he makes a long and wonderful test career. I'm sure I had the same opinion and hopes of Vaughn van Jaarsveld at 19/20.

dazmcspaz wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:As expected the franchise average is lower, but 44 isn't to shabby.

44 is ok for a 19/20 year old starting out. Actually, it's bloody brilliant for a 19/20 year old starting out.

He's got promise, he's bloody marvelous to watch when he's on song, and I hope he makes a long and wonderful test career. I'm sure I had the same opinion and hopes of Vaughn van Jaarsveld at 19/20.

Ah it's great to see I'm not Vaughn's only fan!

Yeah de Kock has made a great start to his career. Already capped at T20i level. He will be an excellent addition to the Proteas Test side when the time comes!

I think the time is coming when AB deVilliers might soon decide on giving up the gloves, and focussing on his batting....