When Larry met Sonny

Afternoon, lads.

For all the hypothetical Heavyweight match ups which have been pondered on v2, I don't remember seeing this one talked up (apologies if my memory is playing tricks on me!), so maybe it's worth getting everyone's take on it?

Larry Holmes and Sonny Liston are, almost exclusively, tangled up in a battle, amongst boxing scribes and fans, spanning the decades to determine who owned he best jab in Heavyweight history. Debating it is pretty good, but seeing them pitching their famed jabs against one another would have been even better - so if they had, what would have been the outcome?

From the outset, just about everything points to this one being tighter than a camel's backside in a stand storm. The pair of them share similarities; both fantastic jabbers, but both also vulnerable against a good jab themselves. Both at their best when weighing in the 210 - 215 lb region, and both rangy operators who made up for a (slight) lack of speed with textbook fundamentals and timing.

Curiously, for someone with such a good pair of legs (certainly better than Sonny's), Larry could be a little bit easy to get to early on, despite conventional wisdom saying that he should snag the openers as the slower man chases him. But Holmes just wan't great out of the blocks, for whatever reason; lethargic in the first half of the fight against Weaver and Witherspoon and, on top of that, he also managed to get himself out-jabbed and, you could say, roundly out-boxed by Gerry Cooney, a pretty one-paced flat track bully (albeit a very game and big one) for prolonged periods of their 1982 superfight. Indeed, it was Larry's chin and right cross, rather than his famed jab, which saw him through that one.

Apart from a young, quicksilver Cassius Clay (cut from a far better cloth than the Cooneys, Weavers and Witherspoons of this world, I'm sure we can all agree!), nobody ever out-jabbed Liston in anything like his prime years, and if Holmes is lethargic and slow to hit his rhythm here, it could be disasterous. Holmes did possess the finest powers of recovery in the history of the Heavyweight division, but my Lord, he didn't half have to use them from time to time! What Liston lacks in comparison to an Earnie Shavers in pure, bone-shattering power (which wouldn't be all that much, in any case) he more than makes up for with dead-eyed finishing skills and precision. Don't let the reputation fool you - Liston had some artistry to go with his sheer power and was a better technician than many would have us believe. If he decked Holmes as heavily as Shavers and Snipes did, I believe he'd have succeeded where Earnie and Renaldo failed in trying to finish him off.

So, if the fight finishes within the first half, I can only really see Liston being the victor. However, is an early finish the percentage call? Perhaps not. That's not to say that a long fight dimishes Liston's chances a great deal, but it certainly gives Holmes' a huge boost.

Holmes had superb fitness and stamina, whereas Liston could be discouraged late on if things weren't going his way. If Holmes can navigate those first few rounds, will Sonny lose heart? Holmes had that invaluable knack of dragging something up from his boots in the championship rounds; that incredible fifteenth round effort to nick the decision and, with it, the WBC belt against Norton, the uppercut out of nowhere which turned the tide against Weaver, the way he finally stamped his authority over Cooney from the tenth round onwards. Even against Witherspoon, it was Holmes' hustling late on which saved his bacon, controversial though the decision was.

I'm in two minds about this one; either Liston takes advantage of a slow Holmes start, decks him in the early going and continues to get to him until Larry runs out of miracle recoveries, or Holmes gets on his bike, takes Liston's legs from under him and wears him out down the home stretch. Even as I write this I'm struggling to settle on one side of the fence or the other.

But, if I had to pick one outcome, I'd perhaps side with the idea of Sonny maybe having just a little bit too much for Holmes. Liston deserves something of a pass in some ways for the Ali fights, I think, but those aside, he was able to swat his best opponents with contempt, whereas Holmes seemed to make harder work of his than he needed to, time and time again. My best guess is that, after a few rounds of Holmes having the better of it behind his jab and movement, Liston begins to corner him (the way Cooney did, only this time we're not talking about a man who lacked the speed and craft to prevent Holmes escaping this situation) and, as he often did, Larry finds that his left hand isn't enough to keep the more robust man off him.

Larry takes a count in the fifth but survives the round. He's on the move as his head clears for the round afterwards, but by the seventh Sonny is all over him again and, this time, there is no recovery from Holmes, no victory snatched froim the jaws of defeat; the referee, seeing Holmes trapped and detached from his senses on the ropes and under heavy fire, steps in, and Liston has a TKO victory in the seventh.

Not a great deal of conviction in my prediction here, I admit - but what's yours? Comment away if you like, everyone. Ta very much.

I would probably lean towards a distance fight. I think Liston maybe had power, but he fought in a somewhat smaller heavyweight division where he was usually the bigger, stronger man. Many of Holmes opponents were bigger or similarly sized to him so that maybe accounts for some of it. I don’t think Liston faced too many guys that were plus 215lbs whereas the division Holmes operated in had guys like Cooney, Norton, Witherspoon, Cobb, Smith, Shavers etc who were physically bigger than the vast majority of Listons opponents.

Holmes obviously had a good chin and powers of recovery as shown against Shavers so while you might lean towards Liston in the power department I think Holmes edges it in durability.

I would agree that Holmes could start slow and he generally took a few rounds to get comfortable with his opponent and establish distance. But for some reason I find it more re-assuring to lean towards Holmes craft rather than Listons power. I don’t think Holmes was as spectacular as Liston but I feel he his wins, close as some of them were, over guys like Norton, Witherspoon and the fact he was able to show he could recuperate from being absolutely nailed by a genuine heavy hitter like Shavers as well as being able to have the skill set to handle and unbeaten Mercer even as an old man gives me greater confidence. Homes to win a close-ish decision, possibly visiting the canvass.

Great article

Can I ask which other fights apart from the obvious Liston seemed discouraged in later rounds - genuine interest rather than a criticism.

Thanks, Shah. I should have been clearer in my suggestion that Liston's head could drop in the latter rounds if he wasn't having it all his own way, and I must confess that some of that statement is based on what I've read, rather than seen. Apparently, even in the rematch with Marshall which he won, Liston was rife with self-doubt in his corner between the latter rounds and experienced a real downturn in mood afterwards as he wasn't pleased with his performance - not dissimilar to the low he went through after he returned to a crowd in Arkinsas of absolutely nobody in what was meant to be a parade for him after winning the title from Patterson. As I alluded to, he can be given a pass for being outboxed by a twenty-two year old Ali, but the way he capitulated and unfolded is a little more telling, I think.

Good contribution by you as well, Manos. As I said, I can't say I came to this conclusion with any great conviction, and if they fought multiple times then Holmes would definitely pick up some wins. Naturally with this kind of thing, there is a bit of gut feeling, rather than perfectly thought out reason, behind this.

Close one to call and some food for thought in your comment.

88Chris05 wrote:Thanks, Shah. I should have been clearer in my suggestion that Liston's head could drop in the latter rounds if he wasn't having it all his own way, and I must confess that some of that statement is based on what I've read, rather than seen. Apparently, even in the rematch with Marshall which he won, Liston was rife with self-doubt in his corner between the latter rounds and experienced a real downturn in mood afterwards as he wasn't pleased with his performance - not dissimilar to the low he went through after he returned to a crowd in Arkinsas of absolutely nobody in what was meant to be a parade for him after winning the title from Patterson. As I alluded to, he can be given a pass for being outboxed by a twenty-two year old Ali, but the way he capitulated and unfolded is a little more telling, I think.

Good contribution by you as well, Manos. As I said, I can't say I came to this conclusion with any great conviction, and if they fought multiple times then Holmes would definitely pick up some wins. Naturally with this kind of thing, there is a bit of gut feeling, rather than perfectly thought out reason, behind this.

Close one to call and some food for thought in your comment.

Fair enough - I think though the Ali fight in particular was an aberration - the big bad monster coming in half fit and chasing Shadows while an irritating little whelp yapped at him from a safe distance - Sort of discouragement you get from being punched in the face by a Klitschko to try and get your shots in - only to find hes taken a half step back and is twice out your range. I imagine with Holmes tendency to get hit by punches he really ought not to have been would keep the fire and adrenaline burning for him to get the knockout/fight to the end. I think i'dd probably make it 6-4 to Holmes over a series with Liston winning more conclusively n the times that he does.

I guess you can see this ascwhoever takes away the others jab, or you assume they cancel each other out and look at as boxer v puncher. Given I can't predict the former, I'm simplifying it to the latter and coming up with an equally simplistic Liston early or Holmes late. Holmes had dogged durability and I see him by points more often than not. I realise I haven't added much to the debate there but hey, what's new

We just missed out on Liston Frazier - that might be a more mouthwatering prospect

What an intriguing match up Chris...not one I've ever thought of.....

Two well matched individuals in size for sure.......

My problem with Sonny is that I don't know how much HEART the guy had????

Holmes would certainly out work him and though they had good jabs I'd expect Holmes to land more often!!!

Hence Liston's problem.......would he sulk and look to quit or would he do a Shavers look to hang in there and land a big one...we know Larry often got careless, Weaver, Witherspoon, Snipes and Shavers all showed us his defence wasn't the best!!!..........

Sonny was a better finisher than all these guys.......

However the obvious scenario is for Holmes to dishearten Sonny and maybe stop him around the 11th a la Shavers.......

Punchers chance for Sonny for me and a 2/10 chance of winning....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

My problem with Sonny is that I don't know how much HEART the guy had????

I think Sonny gets a raw deal based on the Ali fights. I'm willing to turn a blind eye to an old past his best Liston getting discouraged and beat by the best HW of all time. Didn't Liston suffer a broken jaw in one of his earlier fights and still go the distance? Think it was one of his fights against Marty Marshall. That shows heart to me.

Big Liston fan but finding this one hard to call. Good match up.

Think the people that paid to see Ali-Liston 2 got a raw deal..

I'm sure you'll disagree but I see Liston as being very similar to Duran, they are remembered for the times they didn't show the warrior spirit but I for the life of me I could never describe Duran as being someone with no heart.

Wrong.........

Liston quit on his stool against Clay.......and in the rematch fell to the deck after he was hardly hit...That is lacking heart!!!

Duran had plenty of it...spur of the minute decision cost him against Leonard....

His heart was never in doubt.....Just his talent after being rolled like a drunk.

Duran is remembered as a latin warrior and rightly so..

I can't for the life of me call this one with any certainty. My first instinct when I read this yesterday was Holmes on points and I'd probably stick with that.

However, Liston has more than a puncher's chance. Yes, his power is the great equalizer, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the best version of Liston dominates the best version of Holmes and outjabs Ol' Larry Big Pants to a points victory.

I'm probably 55/45 in favour of Larry but I could see it going either way.